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New Orleans evacuates

Edgy DC Aug 28 2005 04:52 PM

I hope not, but I fear this could be very bad.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 28 2005 04:55 PM

Me too.

Rockin' Doc Aug 28 2005 05:02 PM

Being below sea level makes New Orleans that much more vulnerable to the storm surge that will accompany and powerful hurricane. This could be very bad. I pray that the strength of the approaching storm and potential damage is far less than anticipated.

Edgy DC Aug 28 2005 05:07 PM

I think I won't visit weather sites for now, and save the bandwidth for the peeps that need it.

KC Aug 28 2005 05:26 PM

I forget what I was listening to this morning, but the guy was opining that no one really knows if the Super Dome can withstand what's gonna hit the city and that's where they're sending a lot of people. Eeek. A lot of people forget that New Orleans isn't on the actual Gulf, but a good ways up the Mississippi. The river is higher than the city, scary shit for what might be unleashed tonight looking at the size of that bugger on radar.

martin Aug 28 2005 05:47 PM

wow, i have been out all day and i just looked at the latest news and radar. looks scary. i am from louisiana, baton rouge. the last hurricane that really impressed me was andrew. it felled some massive oak trees that demolished houses in my neighborhood. my parents and friends all live in baton rouge, which of course is much safer than new orleans but still may get quite a beating. growing up everyone always said it was a matter of time before new orleans got destroyed. i hope their predictions were incorrect.

seawolf17 Aug 28 2005 06:51 PM

We honeymooned in New Orleans a few years ago, and we were very surprised by the matter-of-fact attitude N'awlinsers took toward a near total devastation of their city. It's like they know it's going to happen, and it's just "laissez les bon temps roulez." Bizarre. I wish them all the best of luck; it's a great city, and I hope everything goes well.

cooby Aug 28 2005 07:08 PM

Best of luck to your family and friends, martin.

Rockin' Doc Aug 28 2005 07:33 PM

Matrin, I hope all goes well for your family and all the people of southern Louisiana.

martin Aug 28 2005 08:00 PM

thanks yall. i talked to my folks they dont sound worried at all. it actually appears katrina will stay well east of baton rouge, and pass over the eastern edge of new orleans and head slightly NE, which i guess is the worst possible scenario for new orleans, but will leave baton rouge in good condition. but oh man does it looks bad for the big easy. bon chance new orleans!

Johnny Dickshot Aug 28 2005 08:34 PM

We have friends in Gulfport, MS That city last got its ass kicked by a hurricane in 1963 (I think?) -- before the waterfront was jammed with floating high-rise casinos. O, nervous night

ScarletKnight41 Aug 28 2005 08:45 PM

Good vibes to all in and around the New Orleans area!

PiazzaFan411 Aug 29 2005 06:35 AM

They are now evacuating the superdome I believe. They are saying that the power is out. They might stay in the dome but you never know. The water level rose some 28' in some areas.

cooby Aug 29 2005 06:59 AM

I think that unless they are in danger of flooding, they had better stay put, electricity or no. Do they give a reason Piazza Fan?

PiazzaFan411 Aug 29 2005 07:03 AM

They were pretty bleak on the details, but they said it was mostly no electricity and you could leave if you wanted but they really can't anymore because of the extreme weather in New orleans right now.

MFS62 Aug 29 2005 07:03 AM

If there's any good news, it is that as of a few minutes before 9 AM Eastern time, they have downgraded it to a category 4 storm from the feared catcgory 5. Martin, good luck to you and your family. Later

Benjamin Grimm Aug 29 2005 07:19 AM

What I heard on the radio this morning is that the power went out in the Superdome but that generators are providing a minimum amount of light. I don't see how they can evacuate the building. The people who are there are there because they had nowhere else to go. You can't send people out into a hurricane because the lights are out in their shelter.

PiazzaFan411 Aug 29 2005 07:41 AM

Exactly. That was what i thought at the first point at which the news said that. (about 8:00am CNN)

Frayed Knot Aug 29 2005 08:06 AM

Well it is now apparently raining inside the Superdome as "dozens of holes" have sprung in the roof.

metirish Aug 29 2005 08:18 AM

Jesus what a mess, lets hope the Dome stays up, I have terrible visions of what might happen to it.

Edgy DC Aug 29 2005 08:48 AM

Hurricanes usually get downgraded when they start heading inland. But it's not the wind speed so much as the rising water levels that are the gravest threat.

metirish Aug 29 2005 09:05 AM

looks like that is happening.. ]BREAKING NEWS Lower 9th Ward of New Orleans, on east side of city, under 5 to 6 feet of water after pumps fail, mayor says. Details soon.

metirish Aug 29 2005 10:38 AM

Edgy DC Aug 29 2005 10:18 PM

At least 55 reported dead so far, but those are all from outside Louisana. New Orleans seems to have been spared the worst, but they can only speculate at this point about loss of life, as the various districts are cut off from one another. Then comes the post-flood nightmare, as predictions are that the city will be a toxic mess, with little place for the water to recede to.

PiazzaFan411 Aug 30 2005 05:42 AM

Now there is a big chunk of the roof missing.

PiazzaFan411 Aug 30 2005 05:44 AM

Yes Edgy, how are they going to get the water out of the city, they are below sea level.

Edgy DC Aug 30 2005 05:56 AM

Not my field, man.

Frayed Knot Aug 30 2005 07:37 AM

So I guess it's still too early to make any cracks about Katrina and the waves she created, huh?

ScarletKnight41 Aug 30 2005 08:04 AM

The Dave Barry blog made that joke pre-landfall. Since they're located in Miami, they have license to joke about hurricanes.

Willets Point Aug 30 2005 08:17 AM

You'll have to wait until things clear up and New Orleans residents are walking on sunshine again. I feel guilty that I keep getting the opening number from "O Streetcar!" in my head.

ScarletKnight41 Aug 30 2005 08:37 AM

Damn you Willets - that one didn't occur to me until now! BTW, I'm supposed to fly to New Orleans in a month and take a cruise out of there. I'm not counting on this trip happening.

Bret Sabermetric Aug 30 2005 10:40 AM

Look, if I had a hurricane bearing down on me, I think I'd evacuate right in my pants.

Lundy Aug 30 2005 12:01 PM

]BTW, I'm supposed to fly to New Orleans in a month and take a cruise out of there. I'm not counting on this trip happening. Our company has a conference scheduled for next month in New Orleans, and all is still going on as scheduled. The hotel it's being held at suffered little or no damage. If you're going through the central business district, which suffered less damage than the outlying areas, I wouldn't be quick to cancel just yet.

ScarletKnight41 Aug 30 2005 12:23 PM

I'm not cancelling anything. If the cruise is on, I'm going.

Willets Point Aug 30 2005 12:34 PM

O it was one fine morning I bid New Orleans adieu And took the road to Jackson Town My fortune to renew I cursed all foreign money No credit could I gain Which had my heart a-longing For the Lakes of Pontchartrain I stowed aboard a railroad car Beneath the morning sun And I rode the rails 'til eventide 'Til I finally lay me down No stranger would befriend me 'Til a dark girl toward me came And I fell in love with a Creole girl On the Lakes of Pontchartrain I said 'My bonnie Creole lass, My money 'tis no good And if it weren't for the alligators I'd sleep here in the wood.' 'You're welcome here kind stranger Our house is very plain But we never turn a stranger out On the Lakes of Pontchartrain.' She took me into her mama's house And she treated me right well The hair upon her shoulders In jet black ringlets fell To try to paint her beauty 'Twould surely be in vain So handsome was my Creole lass On the Lakes of Pontchartrain I asked her if she'd marry me, She said that ne'er could be For she had a lover Who was far away at sea She said that she would wait for him And true she would remain 'Til he returned to his Creole lass On the Lakes of Pontchartrain So fare thee well, my Creole lass, I'll ne'er see you no more And I'll ne'er forget your kindness In the cottage by the shore And at each social gathering A flowing bowl I'll drain I'll raise a glass to my Creole lass On the Lakes of Pontchartrain I'll raise a glass to my bonnie lass On the Lakes of Pontchartrain One of my favorite old-time songs although Lake Pontchartrain is certainly less romantic when it's overflowing into one's house.

Johnny Dickshot Aug 30 2005 01:00 PM

There's an angel on the stairs (as if you'd even care) When the lights go up, and the sun has nearly gone down Did you see him on the street? Did you pass him at your feet? Did you think aloud,"how dare they even look me in the eye'? And he loves the girls And he loves the boys Going to make twenty dollars before the weekend's over So set him up, Let him fall Turn him over in your hands God save the King of New Orleans Got a ticket to a show Going to see him take a blow When the drunk one said, "Cat Stevens was the greatest singer!" And did you kick him in the head? Did you see the blood run down? Did you laugh at all when the people walked right by and said aloud, "You gutter punks are all the same. "Probably make twenty dollars 'fore the weekends over."? So set him up, Then let him fall. Turn him over in your hands. God save the King of New Orleans. Radio in my head Radio in that car Going down again, he's going down again.... Anyway you look, anyway you talk it over It's easier to let it slip out of your mind But it rips your heart out Then it kicks your head in Just give him one more chance, try to see the beauty in his world All the way in on my hands, in on my feet, and shoulders Going to make twenty dollars before the weekend's over So set him up, Then let him fall Turn him over in your hands God save the King of New Orleans

Edgy DC Aug 30 2005 01:27 PM

I'm also a fan of "Lakes of Pontchartrain," though my version has a few different words. Other literature has suggested the lake itself isn't so pretty, but rather awash in the toxic muck that's now flowing through the streets. I also thought of this heartbreaking song: Mary, grab the baby, river's rising Muddy water's taking back the land Well, this old house, it won't take one more beating Ain't no use to stay and make a stand. The morning light showed water in the valley Daddy's grave just went below the line Things to save, you just can't take them with you The flood will swallow all we leave behind I won't be back to start all over 'Cause what I felt before is gone Mary, grab the baby, river's rising Muddy water's taking back our home Now the road is gone; there's just one way to leave here. I'll turn my back on what I've left below Shifting land and broken farms around me Muddy water's changing all I know It's hard to say just what I'm losing Ain't never been so all alone Mary, grab the baby, river's rising Muddy water's taking back my home Well muddy water's taking back my home

ScarletKnight41 Aug 30 2005 01:27 PM

I decided to call the hotel where I'm supposed to stay the night before the cruise. No answer there, but the hotel chain's main number had some info. The hotel has been evacuated, has no electricity or phone service, and sustained hurricane damage and flooding. The website says that they will be accepting arrivals again next week. Hopefully they'll repair everything on schedule.

seawolf17 Aug 30 2005 01:42 PM

Better Than Ezra rules. One of the criminally forgotten bands of our time. Good post, JD.

Willets Point Aug 30 2005 02:01 PM

Another sadly appropos song: When The Levee Breaks If it keeps on rainin', levee's goin' to break If it keeps on rainin', levee's goin' to break And the water gonna come in, have no place to stay Well all last night I sat on the levee and moan Well all last night I sat on the levee and moan Thinkin' 'bout my baby and my happy home If it keeps on rainin', levee's goin' to break If it keeps on rainin', levee's goin' to break And all these people have no place to stay Now look here mama what am I to do Now look here mama what am I to do I ain't got nobody to tell my troubles to I works on the levee mama both night and day I works on the levee mama both night and day I ain't got nobody, keep the water away Oh cryin' won't help you, prayin' won't do no good Oh cryin' won't help you, prayin' won't do no good When the levee breaks, mama, you got to lose I works on the levee, mama both night and day I works on the levee, mama both night and day I works so hard, to keep the water away I had a woman, she wouldn't do for me I had a woman, she wouldn't do for me I'm goin' back to my used to be I's a mean old levee, cause me to weep and moan I's a mean old levee, cause me to weep and moan Gonna leave my baby, and my happy home I don't know about the water quality, but Lake Pontchartrain looked pretty impressive when I crossed the causeway back in 1996.

Sandgnat Aug 30 2005 02:49 PM

They just announced that they are going to have to evacuate the Superdome. on edit: check that...ALL of New Orleans is to be evacuated. [url]http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,167781,00.html[/url]

ScarletKnight41 Aug 30 2005 09:07 PM

My cruise port may be changed to Galveston or Mobile. They'll let me know next week.

cooby Aug 30 2005 09:11 PM

These stories are heartbreaking. So many people have lost everything. The man in the yellow tee shirt who lost his wife just tears me apart

metirish Aug 30 2005 09:24 PM

Things are quickly turning to hell in New Orleans,from the Times... ]NEW ORLEANS, Aug. 30 - A day after New Orleans thought it had narrowly escaped the worst of Hurricane Katrina's wrath, water broke through two levees on Tuesday and virtually submerged and isolated the city, causing incalculable destruction and rendering it uninhabitable for weeks to come. With bridges washed out, highways converted into canals, and power and communications lines left inoperable, government officials ordered everyone still remaining out of the city and began planning for the evacuation of the Superdome, where about 10,000 refugees huddled in increasingly grim conditions, running out of water and food, and with rising water threatening the generators. So dire was the situation that the Pentagon late in the day ordered six Navy ships and eight Navy maritime rescue teams to the Gulf Coast to bolster relief operations. It also planned to fly in Swift boat rescue teams from California. With the rising waters and widespread devastation hobbling rescue and recovery efforts, the authorities could only guess at the death toll in the city and across the Gulf Coast. In Mississippi alone, officials raised the official count of the dead to at least 100.

Rockin' Doc Aug 30 2005 09:37 PM

Having witnessed first hand the devastation that Hurricane Floyd wrought on eastern North Carolina in September 1999, my heart truly goes out to those affected by Katrina. Seeing it first hand made me realize that the film and photos on the internet and television do not begin to convey the level of destruction that exists in the wake of such a catastrophe. It will take quite a long time for the effected areas to rebuild; some areas will never be the same again.

ScarletKnight41 Aug 30 2005 10:02 PM

I think my reaction to this is similar to the one I had on 9/11. It's too much to comprehend, so the enormity just isn't sinking in yet. The concept of evacuating an entire city is horrifying.

Willets Point Aug 30 2005 10:39 PM

I saw a film of aerial footage above Gulfport and Biloxi and it was just shocking. I've never seen such wholesale destruction before.

SI Metman Aug 30 2005 10:47 PM

I've heard the destruction from the storm being called our tsunami after what happened in Asia last winter.

ScarletKnight41 Aug 30 2005 10:49 PM

The death toll is astounding. With modern day weather forecasting and early warnings, you just don't see that kind of human toll in this country from a storm anymore.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 31 2005 07:37 AM

The problem with warnings is that they have to be heeded. Too many people stayed home, as if staying home could protect their house, their furniture, and their electronic equipment. And they comfort themselves with faulty logic, like "I saw Hurricane Zelda, and it wasn't so bad. So how bad can this one be?"

seawolf17 Aug 31 2005 07:49 AM

In defense of some of the morons, they may have had no place to go. Large parts of that area are not exactly financially strong... and with traffic on every interstate backed up for miles and miles, if your house is all you have in this world, it's probably very hard to just head for the hills and hope for the best. I was mad at the morons too, but the more people they interview, the more I empathize with their situation. Coob, that guy kills me also. It's rare you see reporters in tears too, but there's been a lot of that.

silverdsl Aug 31 2005 07:52 AM

Willets Point wrote: I saw a film of aerial footage above Gulfport and Biloxi and it was just shocking. I've never seen such wholesale destruction before. I saw some of that footage too and that's what made it sink in for me how truly devestating the hurricane was. There was simply nothing left over huge areas. And it's only getting worse considering the flooding in NO, the environmental and health problems, the looting, the lack of food and water for the survivors and everything else they have to face. The death toll really saddens me as well. But you can warn and warn and warn but if people won't listen there's not much the authorities can do. A lot of the survivors are lucky that they were able to be rescued. I can't even begin to imagine how the effected areas rebuild and recover from the hurricane - in some areas maybe they won't even be able to.

Frayed Knot Aug 31 2005 08:16 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Aug 31 2005 08:22 AM

These things take on a whole other dimension when they hit major cities head-on. Locals in Charleston, SC still talk about 'Hugo' ('91 ?) which might be the last direct hit on a sizable city - even Andrew skirted mostly south of Miami. Not to dismiss the suffering when these things roar through rural areas, but man this just brings out a whole 'nother set of problems.

seawolf17 Aug 31 2005 08:18 AM

How about that floating casino that landed on a Holiday Inn? Wow.

rpackrat Aug 31 2005 12:41 PM

]Too many people stayed home, as if staying home could protect their house, their furniture, and their electronic equipment. A lot of the people who stayed are poor and were unable to leave. When you don't have a car or a few hundred bucks (or more) lying around that you can use to get a hotel room and some restaurant meals, it's not that easy to evacuate.

SwitchHitter Aug 31 2005 12:46 PM

I have a friend who lived in NO. I have no idea where he is now. His name is John and he's got cerebral palsy. Those of y'all who pray, could you pray for him.

Edgy DC Aug 31 2005 01:02 PM

Best wishes going out to John --- and all the handicapped and homebound types. Last I heard, they're trying to evac the Superdome occupants... to the Astrodome.

ScarletKnight41 Aug 31 2005 01:06 PM

Good vibes to your friend, and to all of the people displaced by Katrina.

Sandgnat Aug 31 2005 02:25 PM The effects of Katrina spreading

Despite a press conference at 2:30pm today by Governor Perdue saying he did not order a shutdown of the gas pumps in the state of Georgia, most gas stations are now shutting down in the greater Savannah area. Local radio reports are advising that they will all be closed by 5pm today and that they could remain closed for up to 5 days. Gas prices went from $2.79/gal this morning to $2.99/gal at 3:30pm when I went to fill up after we heard what was going on. I was second in line at my pump and by the time I left there were 8 cars behind me, and the same at each pump at the station. Several gas stations in the town I work in just outside of Savannah have already turned their pumps off. While filling up, I couldn't help but to think that this was similar to the Jimmy Carter days. The lines at the pumps were spilling out into the street.

seawolf17 Aug 31 2005 02:50 PM

$3.39 for the cheap stuff out in Suffolk County this afternoon.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 31 2005 04:53 PM

rpackrat wrote: ]Too many people stayed home, as if staying home could protect their house, their furniture, and their electronic equipment. A lot of the people who stayed are poor and were unable to leave. When you don't have a car or a few hundred bucks (or more) lying around that you can use to get a hotel room and some restaurant meals, it's not that easy to evacuate. I certainly understand, and sympathize with, the people who didn't leave because finances or health prevented it. My scorn is for the many who were capable of leaving, but were too stubborn or stupid to do so. And there were many such people.

ScarletKnight41 Aug 31 2005 04:59 PM

I don't have any scorn. I'm sure most of those people were in a deep sense of denial. I hope that I'd be able to react to such an emergency more sensibly, but I can't say for a certainty that I would.

seawolf17 Sep 01 2005 07:27 AM

I'm very glad we went to New Orleans when we did... the more stories come out, the more you think there's going to be nothing left... ]Superdome Evacuation Halted Amid Gunfire NEW ORLEANS - The evacuation of the Superdome was suspended Thursday after shots were reported fired at a military helicopter and arson fires broke out outside the arena. No immediate injuries were reported. The scene at the Superdome became increasingly chaotic, with thousands of people rushing from nearby hotels and other buildings, hoping to climb onto the buses taking evacuees from the arena, officials said. Paramedics became increasingly alarmed by the sight of people with guns. Richard Zeuschlag, chief of the ambulance service that was handling the evacuation of sick and injured people from the Superdome, said it was suspending operations "until they gain control of the Superdome." He said shots were fired at a military helicopter over the Superdome before daybreak. He said the National Guard told him that it was sending 100 military police officers to restore order. "That's not enough," Zeuschlag said. "We need a thousand." Lt. Col. Pete Schneider of the Louisiana National Guard said the military — which was handling the evacuation of the able-bodied from the Superdome — had suspended operations, too, because fires set outside the arena were preventing buses from getting close enough to pick up people. He said tens thousands of people started rushing out of other buildings when they saw buses pulling up and hoped to get on. But the immediate focus was on evacuating people from the Superdome, and the other refugees were left to mill around. Zeuschlag said paramedics were calling him and crying for help because they were so scared of people with guns at the Superdome. He also said that during the night, when a medical evacuation helicopter tried to land at a hospital in the outlying town of Kenner, the pilot reported 100 people were on the landing pad, some with guns. "He was frightened and would not land," Zeuschlag.

metirish Sep 01 2005 07:41 AM

What a mess, I watched a report last night on MSNBC about the looting of a Wall-Mart, some were just taking food, other like the two female cops were taking all they could fit in the trolly, it's bad when the cops are at it.

silverdsl Sep 01 2005 07:50 AM

What I don't understand is where all the thousands of people that have to evacuate New Orleans are going to go. They're only letting the people from the Superdome go to the Astrodome so what does everyone else do? And how do they live considering many of them have nothing?

seawolf17 Sep 01 2005 11:54 AM

And now [url=http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050901/ap_on_en_mu/katrina_fats_domino]Fats Domino[/url] is missing. Harry Connick was on Today this morning; he looked crushed. It's rare to see celebrities really beaten up over anything, but he is New Orleans, the way Preservation Hall and Emeril and the aforementioned Fats Domino are. We're getting literally dozens of calls from students from Tulane and Xavier and LSU who want to enroll here so they can resume some level of normalcy.

Edgy DC Sep 01 2005 11:54 AM

You've got to start somewhere and that's with the people at hand. Fats Domino, by the way, is missing.

Elster88 Sep 01 2005 01:12 PM

Am I naive to hope that most people had flood insurance and can repair/rebuild their homes and businesses? _____________________________ This post was made under the designation 166) Pete Schourek

Willets Point Sep 01 2005 01:16 PM

Probably. There is a lot of poverty in New Orleans. And the poorest people tend to live in the weakest structures in the lowest parts of town. While I hope you're right, there's probably a lot of people who lost everything.

cooby Sep 01 2005 02:50 PM

Widey and martin, I am sorry, but I have been very very busy this week getting my daughter's things ready to move to Philadelphia, so if you already said this, please forgive. How are your friends and family doing? Have you heard from them?

Edgy DC Sep 01 2005 03:21 PM

We're trying our best to get in touch with our schools. Most --- including the Isidore Newman School, where Peyton (and I guess Eli) Manning went --- are simply out of reach. Schools across the country are offering slots to displaced students, if we can find them. But, you know, that's good for the rich kids. I guess, hopefully, that makes it easier for other assistance for the poor kids. Still... By the way, somebody find the Fat Man.

Johnny Dickshot Sep 01 2005 03:39 PM

I'm confident my friend is OK, worried just the same. He's a navy engineer stationed at Gulfport and was required to stay and help out while his wife & kid took off for Jacksonville -- they're OK and assume he is, I'm sure we'll hear he's fine. They're also pretty confident their home was destroyed

KC Sep 01 2005 03:53 PM

Unfortunately, that confidence is deafening. A friend of ours brother has likely lost his house and his kids houses are also likely underwater. A dozen or so people with no where to go ... it's mind boggling.

Johnny Dickshot Sep 01 2005 04:19 PM

Just got an email from her: She's OK, he's OK, their place probably isn't and even if it it's not likely they'll be able to get back there for 2 months. I'd been trading increasingly worrysome emails with my other friends over the fate of these guys for the last 2 days and it managed to put property loss in perspective.

cooby Sep 01 2005 05:03 PM

Glad they're okay! Switch Hitter, how about your friend? I overlooked that the first time I scanned through this...

Edgy DC Sep 01 2005 07:06 PM

Kookoo stories: First bus to reach the Astrodome is a School Bus Commandeered by Civilians Yeah, there's 70+ on board, none of us has ever driven anything like this, so let's give the wheel to a teenager, while we screen his vision by piling up to the dashboard.

cooby Sep 01 2005 07:11 PM

The first sorta good story I've seen, thanks Edgy.

seawolf17 Sep 01 2005 07:16 PM

Another good story on MSNBC now: a family reunited in the parking lot of the Astrodome. However, it followed the story about dead people lying on the streets of New Orleans with pieces of paper taped to them listing their next of kin. This is the most disturbing story I've ever seen.

Edgy DC Sep 01 2005 08:13 PM

Check the pet link on this page.

metirish Sep 01 2005 08:38 PM

Edgy thanks for the story about the civilians, with all the TV reports about looting and such it's refreshing to see a story about young people doing the right thing, Jabbar Gibson the driver needs to be commended, picking up people along the way and pooling what little cash they had to buy diapers and fuel.

cooby Sep 01 2005 08:51 PM

That's what I liked too, they weren't waiting for permission or a certain TYPE of refugee or whatnot, they just did it.

Willets Point Sep 01 2005 08:58 PM

I don't know what it says about me but when I watched the footage from a helicopter flying over Gulfport and Biloxi I was certainly shocked by all the destroyed casinos but audibly gasped when I saw the Gulfport Aquarium totally destroyed. Anyhow, it was good to see in Edgy's link a pair of dolphins somehow were saved and brought to a hotel swimming pool.

cooby Sep 01 2005 09:00 PM

That link works???

Willets Point Sep 01 2005 09:07 PM

seawolf17 wrote: And now [url=http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050901/ap_on_en_mu/katrina_fats_domino]Fats Domino[/url] is missing. Hey may not have found his thrill, but Fats Domino is found alive.

metirish Sep 01 2005 09:13 PM

It didn't work for me, this whole situation has me depressed, this is America, shouldn't we be able to deal with this better than we are, watching the news tonight and seeing as the crew was filming people die where they sat is the worst, some old woman died in her chair at the Dome, all they could do was throw a blanket over her, very sad.

Edgy DC Sep 01 2005 10:11 PM

Not for nothing, Irish, but what are you suggesting? I worked until eleven tonight coding up a newsletter trying to find school placements for displaced students. Do any of you have a slot in your home for a child to stay for a few weeks while his or her parents try to get on their feet? I'm up for a Crane Pool Fundraising drive, if anybody wants to take the bull by the horns. But obviously money isn't needed right now so much as food, water and shelter for the displaced.

metirish Sep 01 2005 10:25 PM

Edgy I am very sorry if I came across as not greatfull to what you and others are doing to help, it's amazing and all I can do is thank you, I'm frustrated I suppose when I watch people down there cry for help and wonder where the Goverment is, I'm not on a rant here about Bush or anyone else, it's just maddening to see what's going on, I don't know, I just never thought this would hapen here, that's all. I would welcome a CPF fundraising drive. Keep up the great work.

Edgy DC Sep 01 2005 10:35 PM

I don't mean to suggest you're ungrateful, but I am trying to motivate energetic younger peeps like yourself to grab a metaphorical shovel or pick-axe and start shoveling or picking. Wringing our hands and allowing ourselves to grow depressed wondering why gummint doesn't do more/better is natural, but it does little more than get us in messes like this in the first place.

Willets Point Sep 01 2005 10:44 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 01 2005 10:46 PM

Hurricane Housing drive for what it's worth. I know most of us live so far from the Gulf Coast that even if we want to open our guest rooms to the displaced, it will still be a challenge for anyone to get to our houses, but I figure it's worth spreading the word.

metirish Sep 01 2005 10:45 PM

I don't know what to do, I donate but that's not what they need, a fundraising drive at Shea would help I think, would contacting the Mets for that help?,

cooby Sep 01 2005 11:19 PM

Edgy, before you get on metirish's case for stating the obvious, read through this thread again.

Edgy DC Sep 01 2005 11:22 PM

I really didn't mean to get on his case and apologize if I come across that way.

cooby Sep 01 2005 11:24 PM

Okay. But please read it anyway.

Edgy DC Sep 01 2005 11:30 PM

Reads just like I remember it. Meanwhile, anarchy.

KC Sep 02 2005 06:10 AM

>>>I'm up for a Crane Pool Fundraising drive, if anybody wants to take the bull by the horns. But obviously money isn't needed right now so much as food, water and shelter for the displaced.<<< I'll do some research this morning and have something on The Companion this afternoon.

Edgy DC Sep 02 2005 06:30 AM

Chemical fire..

cooby Sep 02 2005 06:56 AM

Wow, Astrodome is full and Texas is looking around for more places to place people. Way to go, Annie and her fellow Lone Star Staters! Relief funds pouring in from other nations, so nice to hear.

Edgy DC Sep 02 2005 07:30 AM

It started yesterday in my office. "It's amazing. I'm ashamed to be an American. Middle Easterners must be laughing their butts off. Good for them!"

metirish Sep 02 2005 07:52 AM

Troops have been given orders to shoot-to-kill looters. Kathleen Blanco, the governor of Louisiana ]"They have M-16s and they're locked and loaded. These troops know how to shoot and kill ... they are more than willing to do so, and I expect they will."

Benjamin Grimm Sep 02 2005 08:02 AM

metirish wrote: Troops have been given orders to shoot-to-kill looters. Kathleen Blanco, the governor of Louisiana ]"They have M-16s and they're locked and loaded. These troops know how to shoot and kill ... they are more than willing to do so, and I expect they will." I was wondering if this was going to happen. I read a book last year about the 1906 earthquake, and the mayor of San Francisco issued the same order. I was shocked by that, and pondered how much times have changed. But then when I saw the looters on TV, and heard and read about what was going on, I thought of that 1906 order in San Francisco, and at least began to understand the motiviation for such an order. One nasty side effect from 1906: People trying to salvage their own property from the rubble of their homes were also shot as looters. When you open the door to "shoot on sight" things can get quickly out of hand. And, if I remember correctly, the citizens of San Francisco also acted on that order, which helped foster the vigilante atmosphere. Hopefully only trained law enforcement people will be shooting to kill, and they'll use this power more carefully than it was used in San Francisco 99 years ago.

seawolf17 Sep 02 2005 08:05 AM

Maybe we should not worry so much about looters and take care of the people who are dying on the streets. So someone steals an armload of Donte Stallworth jerseys from a Sports Authority; people are dying. I hate our country.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 02 2005 08:07 AM

It's not that the looters are stealing designer clothes. They're also shooting at rescue workers. They're making the situation more dangerous. At a time when everyone needs to be part of the solution, they're part of the problem. I do understand the rationale for the order. I just hope they don't apply it to a 16-year-old carrying a DVD player.

Frayed Knot Sep 02 2005 08:27 AM

I saw the Governor on TV earlier who specifically said that the 'shoot to kill' order was NOT intended for looters but rather for those intending to harm others.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 02 2005 08:34 AM

Well, that makes more sense. Maybe we really have made progress in the last 99 years.

metsmarathon Sep 02 2005 08:59 AM

while i must admit that i am disappointed that our government and society has been unable to react more swiftly to the needs of new orleans and other areas devastated by katrina, i'm wary of casting blame and shame, as there is now way for the government to have been fully prepared for this sort of aftermath, without necessitating them being prepared for this sort of aftermath with every major hurricane. you want everybody in a position to help to be doing everything within their power, and in the correct ways, to help those in need and rescue those in danger, and repair and rebuild and whatnot, but simply because mistakes are being made does not measure up to gross incompetence, or willful indifference, as many claims are being made. humans, even experts among us, are mistake-ridden creatures by nature, and are only as good at solving problems as our understanding of those problems, our ability to acquire knowledge about those problems, and make reasonable assumptions about those things we do not know, or that may change without our knowing. take, for instance, the situation with the levees. the army corps of engineers is being called out by the NO mayor as essentially being a group of hacks, messing around and screwing up the repair job to the levees. the army corps of engineers is the best in the world at doing what they do. and repairing a breached levee is no small task. it is not as simple as plopping more material on top of hte hole in the levee, as the entire structure is compromised. the new material (sandbags, railroad cars, etc) will be only as effective at stopping the flood of water as the material supporting it from below and the sides. this supporting material is already compromised, and is greatly weakened. repairing the levees is a deliberate process, which, if rushed, will only be undone again by nature, perhaps in an even more disastrous way. if railroad cars full of sand or cement are plopped down atop the busted levees, the base of the levee may give way, leading to a much much larger hole in the ground, more water rushing through, and an even bigger more expensive problem to solve. it is tragic that because they cannot rush the repairs to the levees, but it would be even more tragic if they rushed, and their efforts were wasted and ineffectual. ... lawlessness that is allowed to ferment and grow should not be tolerated. simple survivalism of going into stores looking for food and clothing and other necessities is one thing, and should grudginly be accepted (even better would be if such superstores were turned into controlled distribution centers in times like this, but that is far, far easier said than done!) but what is happening in new orleans is not simple survival. stores are being ransacked, not for food rations, but for luxury items, material goods, weapons, and drugs. property is being destroyed (and it is certainly a different thing to have property destroyed by the willful acts of others than to have it destroyed in an act of nature) that may otherwise have weathered the flood. looting inevitably leads to violence - to assault, to rape, to murder. instead of people worrying about how they are going to stay healthy until help arrives, they now ahve to worry about thugs coming into their homes, their stores, their places of business, and taking away what little they have left, including their lives. it leads to more problems that must be fixed in the aftermath of the storm. it poses an additional threat to those trying to rescue and feed and comfort others. i heard jesse jackson this morning on a radio station say that the real looting is going on at the gas pump, not in new orleans, and it made me sick. no, jesse, the real looting is going on in new orleans, where the gun counters at walmarts are being emptied, where armed gangs are roaming the convention center raping innocent survivors, and shooting at rescuers. those are the real looters. and every one of those thugs should have a bullet lodged firmly in their skulls for what they are doing.

Edgy DC Sep 02 2005 09:30 AM

marathon has my vote. The folks in my office have almost been reduced to phrenology (I'm not kidding) looking for ways to blame the government, the administration, the president. We all have a responsibility here. For what happened and how to best undo it.

ScarletKnight41 Sep 02 2005 10:43 AM

This beautiful letter appears today [url=http://blogs.herald.com/dave_barrys_blog/]on the Dave Barry Blog[/url] - EMAIL FROM HOUSTON This email came yesterday. I explained to the writer that I'm not doing a newspaper column these days, and asked if he minded if I put his email -- which is better than anything I'd have written anyway -- on the blog. He said fine, so here it is: Dear Dave, As a huge fan over the years, I know of your generosity to causes and was especially touched by your columns about 9/11. I think you managed to convey what we were all feeling at the time, but were at a loss to express. At any rate, I know that you may already have something like this planned, but I thought I would ask anyway. Could you please consider writing a column for this week's paper on the need for people to help the relief effort? I think you could really help reinforce the idea that people need help, particularly since you have experienced this personally (more than once if I recall). As a Houstonian, I am embarrassed to admit that on the radio, TV, and even here in the office, people's comments have gone from "Oh, that's terrible!" to "Wait a minute, they're all coming here?!? 25,000?!? What about us?", and I hesitate to say that the thought crossed my mind at first as well. But then I thought, hey! Imagine waking up one morning with nothing. No home, no job, no food, no clothes. In some cases not even knowing where your family is and if they're okay or even alive. And then to be surrounded by such complete and total devastation. You have nothing and there is no where to go. Just chaos, and humanity at its basest level. Sheer survival instincts kick in. You can't call the police, or go to the hospital. You're lucky if you can sit on a rooftop. These people do not have access to the information that we, the unaffected, can access on TV, internet, etc. They must feel completely abandoned and alone. They don't know that help is coming. They don't even know if they're going to be able to eat today. I cannot pretend to imagine the sheer horror of what they are going through. Of course they're scared! Of course they're angry! And they're probably a little tired of people with cameras snapping their pictures, but being unable to provide any real help. And then for us (referring to Houstonians) to have one moment's hesitation to do absolutely anything we can, astounds me. People cite looting, the fact that the "refugees" are poor (which apparently equals dangerous I guess), that it's FEMA's job, the Red Cross mismanages funds, etc. as a reason to turn away and do nothing. There are always a million reasons to turn away. But come on people, I want to scream - It could have been us!! Any of us! I just wish that people could put away the cynicism for a moment and freaking help. Yes, the looters (and I am not including people taking food here) are a horrendous group that need to be dealt with, but that is no reason for us to turn our backs on all of the others. All of the others that just want to go home. That now need a home. We all need to be reminded of that I think. And I think you're the guy to do it, Dave. I know I would really appreciate it if you would. Please don't get me wrong - I know millions and millions of people are out there giving all they can. But I hear it in the media, and on the street. The blame game has begun, the cynicism and "what about me?" has crept out, and with the notoriously short attention span we as Americans are known to have, it worries me that this is already happening in less than a week. What about next month? I think we would all really appreciate it if you could get something like this across to your readers - I know you could word it more eloquently than I ever could begin to (and the fact that a bazillion people read your column, and I don't have my own, per se). But anyway, that's my request. Just tell them we're here, we care, and help is on the way. And please forgive me for sounding like some peace-nik. I usually have an excellent sense of humor, but I couldn't really figure out a way to work in the words weasel or booger in the above. Thanks for listening anyway. Sincerely, Blair Keel

Edgy DC Sep 02 2005 10:48 AM

Nobody should apologize for sounding like a peacenik. And I do distinguish those helping themselves to food, unless they're unwilling to share it.

NK Cole Sep 02 2005 11:41 AM

We found out that some one that used to work with us lives/lived in Slidell. His home is gone now. He & his family are okay, but to lose everything - I know I wouldn't be to good with it.

KC Sep 02 2005 11:44 AM

Hi Honey! Working hard?

ScarletKnight41 Sep 02 2005 11:52 AM

NK Cole wrote: We found out that some one that used to work with us lives/lived in Slidell. His home is gone now. He & his family are okay, but to lose everything - I know I wouldn't be to good with it. I am so sorry to hear that. {{Hugs}}

rpackrat Sep 02 2005 12:16 PM

]The folks in my office have almost been reduced to phrenology (I'm not kidding) looking for ways to blame the government, the administration, the president. We all have a responsibility here. For what happened and how to best undo it. With all due respect, edgy, that is unadulterated bullshit. This has been turned into a catastrophe by a series of deliberate choices by policy makers that have included, but are not limited to, ignoring any but the rosiest possible scenarios, slashing funding for flood control to help pay for Bush's folly in Iraq, encouraging environmental degradation in the name of commerce, replacing the professionals at FEMA with unqualified political appointees, and so on. We are not all responsible for what happened, though I agree that we are all responsible for helping to fix this mess. But I'm frankly sick and tired of watching Bush's deliberate policy shoices lead to disaster after disaster only to be told that I'm just being soooooooooooo uncouth for demanding some accountability. CHRONOLOGY.... Here's a timeline that outlines the fate of both FEMA and flood control projects in New Orleans under the Bush administration. Read it and weep: January 2001: Bush appoints Joe Allbaugh, a crony from Texas, as head of FEMA. Allbaugh has no previous experience in disaster management. April 2001: Budget Director Mitch Daniels announces the Bush administration's goal of privatizing much of FEMA's work. In May, Allbaugh confirms that FEMA will be downsized: "Many are concerned that federal disaster assistance may have evolved into both an oversized entitlement program...." he said. "Expectations of when the federal government should be involved and the degree of involvement may have ballooned beyond what is an appropriate level." 2001: FEMA designates a major hurricane hitting New Orleans as one of the three "likeliest, most catastrophic disasters facing this country." December 2002: After less than two years at FEMA, Allbaugh announces he is leaving to start up a consulting firm that advises companies seeking to do business in Iraq. He is succeeded by his deputy, Michael Brown, who, like Allbaugh, has no previous experience in disaster management. March 2003: FEMA is downgraded from a cabinet level position and folded into the Department of Homeland Security. Its mission is refocused on fighting acts of terrorism. 2003: Under its new organization chart within DHS, FEMA's preparation and planning functions are reassigned to a new Office of Preparedness and Response. FEMA will henceforth focus only on response and recovery. Summer 2004: FEMA denies Louisiana's pre-disaster mitigation funding requests. Says Jefferson Parish flood zone manager Tom Rodrigue: "You would think we would get maximum consideration....This is what the grant program called for. We were more than qualified for it." June 2004: The Army Corps of Engineers budget for levee construction in New Orleans is slashed. Jefferson Parish emergency management chiefs Walter Maestri comments: "It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay." June 2005: Funding for the New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers is cut by a record $71.2 million. One of the hardest-hit areas is the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, which was created after the May 1995 flood to improve drainage in Jefferson, Orleans and St. Tammany parishes. August 2005: While New Orleans is undergoing a slow motion catastrophe, Bush mugs for the cameras, cuts a cake for John McCain, plays the guitar for Mark Wills, delivers an address about V-J day, and continues with his vacation. When he finally gets around to acknowledging the scope of the unfolding disaster, he delivers only a photo op on Air Force One and a flat, defensive, laundry list speech in the Rose Garden. A crony with no relevant experience was installed as head of FEMA. Mitigation budgets for New Orleans were slashed even though it was known to be one of the top three risks in the country. FEMA was deliberately downsized as part of the Bush administration's conservative agenda to reduce the role of government. After DHS was created, FEMA's preparation and planning functions were taken away. Actions have consequences. No one could predict that a hurricane the size of Katrina would hit this year, but the slow federal response when it did happen was no accident. It was the result of four years of deliberate Republican policy and budget choices that favor ideology and partisan loyalty at the expense of operational competence. It's the Bush administration in a nutshell.

TheOldMole Sep 02 2005 12:18 PM

Packrat... yes.

KC Sep 02 2005 12:43 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 02 2005 01:16 PM

9/11 caused a lot of residual hostility and politically divided a couple of forums. People don't realize it, but national catastrophe is very stressful. Edited the order of my words, I'm tired.

Edgy DC Sep 02 2005 01:03 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 02 2005 01:27 PM

OK, one, I didn't vote for Bush. Two, I didn't vote for Bush again. Three, if I get another chance, I won't vote for him. Four, people who say that the features on the president's face show what a big dumb jerk he is are being being big dumb jerks. Five, there have likely been a dozen presidential administrations since the vulnerability of New Orleans was first prophesied. Other priorities have always been there for all administrations. History shows that people will get more credit for responding to present threats than potential threats, and politicians, always in an election cycle, tend to act in response to that tendency. Six, people who think the way to repond to a natural catastrophe with people dying in the street is to compile timelines to show who should have shown more foresight are being big dumb jerks. There's a time for campaigning. You don't like Bush, neither do I. Support the Hell out of somebody else more convincing next time. But we're not doing nobody any favors standing around the water cooler tut-tutting over the administration's failures. People would do better uploading a list of responses that'll outclass the government's response. Scapegoating is, in part, what leads to anarchy.

seawolf17 Sep 02 2005 01:18 PM

Scapegoating isn't the point, Edgy. (Although Rat's points are valid.) The problem is that it took them five days to get there. What the hell took so long? We were airlifting cartons of water to Banda Aceh immediately, but it takes five freaking days to get water to our own people?

cooby Sep 02 2005 01:31 PM

Six minutes. Very comprehensive.

Willets Point Sep 02 2005 01:31 PM

There's certainly room for criticism, and with an administration that constantly acts if it's above reproach it's important that the criticism be heard while lives that are in danger can be rescued.

seawolf17 Sep 02 2005 01:36 PM

Mayor [url=http://edition.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?url=/video/us/2005/09/02/wwl.nagin.intv.affl]Ray Nagin[/url] sounds off. (A long listen -- over 12 minutes -- but interesting.)

Edgy DC Sep 02 2005 01:40 PM

The criticism I'm getting isn't "I know a better way to fix a levee." It isn't "Five hundred passenger cars can pull out of New Orleans station in a day. They should have had all available cars --- box cars too --- down there evacuating people. Let's see what the capacity of other vulneralbe ciities are so we'll never get caught again." It isn't, "My husband can drive a rig. Let's rent one or solicit a loaner and drive supplies down to Baton Rouge." It's "Look at his stupid ears. God I hate him. I'd hate him less if he didn't have that stupid look on his face. I'd still hate him, though" None of them were here to eleven. I was. Nobody in New Orleans will be comforted by our "Don't blame me --- I Voted for the Other Guy" bumper stickers. Cynical thought: I posit that government will always fail, to some degree or another, in such situations, because people are less interested in governement being there to succeed than government being there to blame.

rpackrat Sep 02 2005 01:44 PM

OK, one, I never said you voted for Bush. Two, I don't give a rat's ass who you voted for. Three, I'm glad you won't vote for him again. Four, I never said that the features on the president's face show what a big dumb jerk he is, so please stop arguing against straw men. Five, the Clinton administration established the Southeast Louisiana Flood District in 1995 to cope with precisely the (then-potential()disaster we are seeing unfolding before our eyes. Six, I'm not campaigning for anything. I have made a cash donation to a relief agency, I am working on food, clothing, and toy drives for the refugees who have come to the Houton area, and I have put my name on two lists as someone who is willing to take a family into my home. .That is how I am coping with this disaster. Contrary to your p[oint, however, we are doing good bycriticizing the administration's failures because it is only by recognizing, acknowledging, and criticizing them that we prevent them from happening again. This is not scapegoating: it is holding those responsible for a catastrophic failure that has likely killed thousands of our fellow Americans accountable for their reckless conduct.

Willets Point Sep 02 2005 01:45 PM

Edgy DC wrote: It's "Look at his stupid ears. God I hate him. I'd hate him less if he didn't have that stupid look on his face. I'd still hate him, though" I haven't read anyone saying anything remotely close to that. Criticisms have been made of unsound policy that enabled the disaster to be much worse than it had to be and slow governmental response to a national emergency.

Willets Point Sep 02 2005 01:49 PM

Grades for hurricane relief charities: http://www.charitywatch.org/hottopics/hurricane_katrina.html http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm/bay/content.view/catid/68/cpid/310.htm

Benjamin Grimm Sep 02 2005 01:49 PM

It's true. You can't please everybody all of the time. It's especially difficult when they're starving and drowning and surrounded by corpses. I was thinking the same thing that Edgy was; simply saying "Everybody out of town! This is a mandatory evacuation!" isn't enough. More should have been done to help people leave. Allowing outbound traffic on the inbound lanes of the interstate was a good idea. Giving lower-income people free Amtrak rides would have been another. If a governor says an area should be evacuated, then you can't just let everyone fend for themselves. You have to give the people who can't afford to rent a car or buy a train ticket some kind of free passage. And I don't think you'd have to worry too much about people with money taking advantage of the free ride. If I lived in New Orleans, and could leave with a car, that's the way I'd do it. It gives you many more options once you get where you're going. But evacuees on a train could have been in Dallas, or Memphis, or St. Louis, or anywhere, long before the hurricane hit land. That would be a good lesson to take away from this. And it would have been cost-effective, too. It's taking a lot more time and money to go and get them now than it would have to let them ride trains out of town.

Edgy DC Sep 02 2005 01:55 PM

]I haven't read anyone saying anything remotely close to that. It's the people in my office.

KC Sep 02 2005 01:59 PM

It took me awhile too to realize a lot of Edge's pissedoffedness seems to be towards co-workers. I realize I'm not the poster child for self control here but please, everyone, don't all start getting angry with each other over this.

cooby Sep 02 2005 02:05 PM

KC where did your fundraising thread go? It's a nice idea and I wanted to point out that you may be able to get your employers to match funds

seawolf17 Sep 02 2005 02:08 PM

KC wrote: It took me awhile too to realize a lot of Edge's pissedoffedness seems to be towards co-workers. I realize I'm not the poster child for self control here but please, everyone, don't all start getting angry with each other over this. Kum-ba-yah, my lord... kum-ba-yah...

Edgy DC Sep 02 2005 02:08 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Sep 02 2005 02:41 PM

]OK, one, I never said you voted for Bush. Two, I don't give a rat's ass who you voted for. Three, I'm glad you won't vote for him again. Then please don't show me the list of his budget cutting. Or tell me it's bullshit that my co-workers are whiney. They are. Though I shouldn't be whining about it. ]Four, I never said that the features on the president's face show what a big dumb jerk he is, so please stop arguing against straw men. I'm talking about the denizens of my office, whose complaints clearly are a waste of time for me to be repeating and I'm sorry. But that's what I was intitially (and rather pointlessly) complaining about. But clearly not what you thought you were defending. ]Five, the Clinton administration established the Southeast Louisiana Flood District in 1995 to cope with precisely the (then-potential()disaster we are seeing unfolding before our eyes. And yet it still happened. In part, because the will of the electorate wasn't inclined enough to push the government under any president or Congress to further any good steps. Somewhat indirectly, but in that sense, we are all responsible. Equally, no, but there'll be plenty of time for sorting it out. We have to take some of this upon ourselves. In part, because it helps us elect better people ]Six, I'm not campaigning for anything. I'm sorry to imply that you were. I'm speaking of the would-be cyberwonks compiling these lists (and you can bet there are many compiling selective lists about the Clinton administration.). I was just as dismayed by those who chose the attacks of September 11th to bash newly-elected Sen. Hillary Clinton, and post a picture of her at ground zero side-by-side with selective excerpts from her --- and (more typically) her husband's --- foreign policy, presenting her as someone with an unrealistically coddling attitude toward arab extremism. ]I have made a cash donation to a relief agency, I am working on food, clothing, and toy drives for the refugees who have come to the Houton area, and I have put my name on two lists as someone who is willing to take a family into my home. . Thanks. That's not happening here in my office. Rather than use the resources of this place to do some good, most are getting away early for a long weekend. I'm pretty much senior staff here now.

Edgy DC Sep 02 2005 02:14 PM

Quite sorry for blowing off steam and any lack of clarity. They just had this detached sense of rooting for it to get worse, in order to reflect more poorly on the administration. Kind of makes me right sick.

metirish Sep 02 2005 02:22 PM

]They just had this detached sense of rooting for it to get worse, in order to reflect more poorly on the administration. Kind of makes me right sick. I'm getting that in my office as well, my boss just remarked to me that "if any good comes form this it's that people will realize that everything Bush touches turns to shit" I really have a bad feeling about this long weekend down there, hope I'm wrong.

metsmarathon Sep 02 2005 02:30 PM

if any good comes of this it will be that, hopefully, people come too better heed warnings and get out of the way of natural disasters while those in a position to prevent, mitigate, and plan for such disasters will be better able to do their job as a result of better funding, preparedness, etc. and once that happens, it will be some new kind of emergency whose implications will far outweigh the scopes of our dreams and nightmares.

Edgy DC Sep 02 2005 03:18 PM

As a forum, I think we should make it a policy to graciously host any displaced pompous pricks.

rpackrat Sep 02 2005 03:56 PM

Edgy, I think we misunderstood each other. Sorry if I was too harsh. I just want to respond to one policy point: When I pointed out that the Clinton administration created the Southeast La. Flood Management District (might be a little off on the name, but it's something like that), you responded that the city flooded anyway. It flooded anyway, at least in part, because the Bush administration cut funding for the program by over 44% since 2001. Those cuts resulted in a hiring freeze at the Army Corps of Engineers, and substantial delays in work on the levees. Reportedly, the levee that suffered a blocks-long breach would have been finished 2 years ago if funding had not been cut. Instead, it was never finished. I freely admit that I despise Bush, but I despise him because of his policy positions. I didn't hate him on January 20, 2001. It is what he has done since then that makes me hate him. And I have never criticized him based on his appearance or any other personal characteristic. I have criticized him because of his policies, and because of his dishonesty in discussing those policies. I think that's legitimate.

metsmarathon Sep 02 2005 06:12 PM

food for thought: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/01/national/nationalspecial/01levee.html ]... Alfred C. Naomi, a senior project manager for the corps and a 30-year veteran of efforts to waterproof a city built on slowly sinking mud, surrounded by water and periodically a target of great storms. ...In an interview last night, Mr. Naomi said the cuts had made it impossible to complete contracts for vital upgrades that were part of the long-term plan to renovate the system. This week, amid news of the widening breach in the 17th Street Canal, he realized that the decadeslong string of near misses had ended. "A breach under these conditions was ultimately not surprising," he said last night. "I had hoped that we had overdesigned it to a point that it would not fail. But you can overdesign only so much, and then a failure has to come." No one expected that weak spot to be on a canal that, if anything, had received more attention and shoring up than many other spots in the region. It did not have broad berms, but it did have strong concrete walls. Shea Penland, director of the Pontchartrain Institute for Environmental Studies at the University of New Orleans, said that was particularly surprising because the break was "along a section that was just upgraded." "It did not have an earthen levee," Dr. Penland said. "It had a vertical concrete wall several feel thick." ... He said there were still no clear hints why the main breach in the flood barriers occurred along the 17th Street Canal, normally a conduit for vast streams of water pumped out of the perpetually waterlogged city each day and which did not take the main force of the waves roiling the lake. He said that a low spot marked on survey charts of the levees near the spot that ruptured was unrelated and that the depression was where a new bridge crossed the narrow canal near the lakefront. the most disastrous breach was on a recently upgraded section of levee - the failure of which surprised the engineers bush's funding cuts had not prevented this section from being upgraded, and therefore cannot be held primarily responsible for its failure. should he have told the corps to upgrade it again?

Rockin' Doc Sep 02 2005 06:47 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 02 2005 07:38 PM

I had my first brush with Katrina today. The local Red Cross called my office manager this afternoon around 3:00 PM and stated that there was a family that had evacuated New Orleans that was in need of eye care. They asked if our office would be willing to help the family get new glasses. I told her to have the Red Cross send the family on and we would see them. At 4:30 PM I walked into one of my exam rooms to see a 68 year old grandmother and her 17 year old grand daughter. They had lost virtually everything in the flood and had escaped with little more than the clothes on their backs and little bit they could carry out with them. They each had a single pair of disposable contact lenses which they were wearing when they left home. I was able examine them, get them contact lens solutions, a few pairs of contact lenses, and a pair of glasses for each of them. It felt good to be able to help someone that had seen their world destroyed. I'm glad our office was able to help them in a small way.

cooby Sep 02 2005 06:51 PM

NIce! :) What are their plans? Do they have relatives in NC?

Edgy DC Sep 02 2005 07:45 PM

Thanks. Doc rocks.

rpackrat Sep 02 2005 09:17 PM

]the most disastrous breach was on a recently upgraded section of levee - the failure of which surprised the engineers bush's funding cuts had not prevented this section from being upgraded, and therefore cannot be held primarily responsible for its failure. should he have told the corps to upgrade it again? According to what I have read, the upgrade was not complete. They had just finished placing a new earthen berm along the levee, but the berm had not been packed, planted, or reinforced, all of which would have been completed two years ago but for the funding cuts.

rpackrat Sep 02 2005 09:31 PM

This is not the article I saw a few days ago, but it addresses the same point. [url]http://www.thetyee.ca/Views/2005/09/02/LeveeBroke/[/url] Here's the relevant part: ]One project that a contractor had been racing to finish this summer was a bridge and levee job right at the 17th Street Canal, site of the main breach on Monday. The levee failure appears to be causing a human tragedy of epic proportions: "We probably have 80 percent of our city under water; with some sections of our city the water is as deep as 20 feet. Both airports are underwater," Mayor Ray Nagin told a radio interviewer. The Newhouse News Service article published Tuesday night observed, "The Louisiana congressional delegation urged Congress earlier this year to dedicate a stream of federal money to Louisiana's coast, only to be opposed by the White House. ... In its budget, the Bush administration proposed a significant reduction in funding for southeast Louisiana's chief hurricane protection project. Bush proposed $10.4 million, a sixth of what local officials say they need." [/url]

Lundy Sep 02 2005 10:49 PM

If this was such an important project to New Orleans, shouldn't the state and local government--not the Federal government--bear most of the responsibility?

ScarletKnight41 Sep 03 2005 11:46 AM

Well, so much for the cruise - Carnival is letting FEMA use the ship for the next few months. I can't complain. It would be like fiddling while Rome burned to go down there for a pleasure cruise right now.

Edgy DC Sep 03 2005 12:25 PM

Lundy wrote: If this was such an important project to New Orleans, shouldn't the state and local government--not the Federal government--bear most of the responsibility? This is something sort of speculated on in a different way by John Tierney in The Times.

Willets Point Sep 03 2005 07:50 PM

The insurance part sound fine but what about the other necessary aspects: prevention and emergency rescue? Is he implying that low lying coastal towns should have Flood Departments to rescue people during emergencies? I don't get it.

TheOldMole Sep 03 2005 07:53 PM

One of our fund raisers at the Orleans concert today was a 50-50 raffle - half to us, half to the winner. We sold about $500 worth of tickets. When I went to announce the drawing, I said we'd be giving half our share to the Red Cross. When we pulled the winning ticket, the guy who won shouted -- "Give my share to the Red Cross!" So we put in the rest of ours, too..all 500 to the Red Cross.

Bret Sabermetric Sep 03 2005 08:41 PM

TheOldMole wrote: One of our fund raisers at the Orleans concert today was a 50-50 raffle - half to us, half to the winner. We sold about $500 worth of tickets. When I went to announce the drawing, I said we'd be giving half our share to the Red Cross. When we pulled the winning ticket, the guy who won shouted -- "Give my share to the Red Cross!" So we put in the rest of ours, too..all 500 to the Red Cross. What's money at a time like this? Good going, Old Mole. I'm going to donate all my winnings to the Red Cross (if you're not following this saga, I bet heavy, and at long odds, against the Mets this year, and so far I'm ahead.)

Edgy DC Sep 03 2005 08:48 PM

His position, as best as I can get, is that people forced to self insure on fire were faced with high premiums in high-risk areas, leading them to either move to low-risk areas or to become vigilant about prevention, pressuring their local governments for stronger fire prevention measures, stricter codes and, as communities, forming better fire and rescue companies. When Peter Stuyvestant came to New Amsterdam, the city was packed with buildings with wooden chimneys. (?!) Blocks of the city were burning with regularity. What the writer is not making a big deal of is that this sort of free-market cultural correction took centuries to come to pass.

seawolf17 Sep 04 2005 09:36 AM

The Cub Scouts were collecting for the Red Cross outside the grocery store this morning... the woman in front of me asked for a receipt. Gimme a break.

cooby Sep 04 2005 12:12 PM

No cruise...how upsetting

ScarletKnight41 Sep 04 2005 12:23 PM

Well, it's disappointing. Hardly a priority, in light of the emergency situation down there. But disappointing nonetheless - my friend and I had been looking forward to the trip for quite a while.

cooby Sep 04 2005 12:39 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 04 2005 03:36 PM

I know, and you'll get there :) Let just put the important things first. For the rest of you, I was just telling Scarlett by email that my daughter is teaching in Wilmington DE, and there are about a dozen children in her class who have close family relatives New Orleans (sisters, aunts, etc) that they have still not heard from, so it just goes to show how far flung even the grief from this is. Plus, a warning for those of you with small children: PLEASE LET THEM KNOW THIS HURRICANE IS OVER AND IT CANNOT COME AND GET THEM. That was one of the things she had to convince them of this week, nobody had thought to tell them that, and when you think about it, I don't suppose you would think to tell your kids that.

TheOldMole Sep 04 2005 01:14 PM

Good advice, Cooby.

Rockin' Doc Sep 04 2005 05:45 PM Athletes offer aid for Katrina relief efforts...

Bucks to donate $500,000 to Katrina relief efforts ESPN.com news services The Milwaukee Bucks are joining the relief efforts for Hurricane Katrina, donate $500,000, the NBA has announced. The Bucks will give $100,000 of that amount to the American Red Cross and $100,000 to the United Way's hurricane relief efforts, the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel reported on Sunday. The Bucks are also working with the Milwaukee chapters of each of those organizations, the paper reported, along with the league to aid local and national efforts to aid the victims of one of the largest natural disasters in U.S. history. "We felt the urgency of the situation and how we might be able to help those organizations in the first phase of the relief efforts," Bucks vice president of business operations John Steinmiller told the paper. "Both those organizations have established good footholds in the Gulf Coast area, and we knew it [assistance] would get to the right place and be effective." • Cincinnati Bengals cornerback Greg Brooks was still waiting to hear from his family, including his young son, "Little Greg," as of Friday night in the wake of the hurricane's destruction. Brooks, a New Orleans native who played for Southern Mississippi, told the Cincinnati Enquirer he had "no news" from his son or any of his family. "It's just so hard not to know," Brooks told the paper. The news was better for some of Brooks' teammates, as word flowed in from their families. Rookie wide receiver Chris Henry welcomed his mother and other family members to his home in Florence, Ky., after they'd driven from their flooded home in Belle Chase, La., while cornerback Tory James brought his wife and daughter to his in-season home. Cornerback Reggie Miles had heard from most of his family in his hometown of Pascagoula, Miss., but had not yet heard from an aunt and his seven nephews and nieces. • Members of the Florida Marlins team and staff are contributing $1,000 each to the relief efforts, the Palm Beach Post reported. Marlins center fielder Juan Pierre, a resident of Alexandria, La., discussed the plan with the Marlins after a team prayer service Friday, according to the newspaper. Donations from fans will be collected outside Dolphin Stadium on Sunday, where the Marlins host the New York Mets. And players suggested giving fans free admission to a game if they brought relief supplies to the stadium, but that idea hasn't been discussed with the front office, according to the paper. • The Oakland Athletics and former A's first baseman Jason Giambi have started up a collection for third-base coach Ron Washington, who lost his own house and his mother's in the hurricane, the San Francisco Chronicle reported. Giambi gave $20,000 and the A's players had collected $9,000 with more expected for Washington, who was in search of housing for 16 relatives who evacuated New Orleans for Alabama, the paper said. "That was very nice," Washington said of the players' support. "Now, instead of looking at one apartment, we can get a couple. That was awesome. It's been a long time since I dropped tears, I never expected anything like this." Washington said he told Giambi his contribution was too much, but Giambi insisted. "That's the way Jason is," Washington told the paper. "He's a class act." Washington is to travel to Alabama on Tuesday to help his family, according to the paper, and rejoin the team in Texas on Friday. • Arizona State officials are to be in Baton Rouge, La., on Sunday to discover first hand what would await the Sun Devils if their game at LSU next weekend is not rescheduled, The Arizona Republic reported. "They'll take a look at the logistics from our standpoint," Koetter said. "We'll know more then." The teams are still discussing options for moving the game, possibly to Shreveport's Independence Bowl, but as of Saturday the game was still scheduled to take place at Tiger Stadium next Saturday.

Frayed Knot Sep 04 2005 08:25 PM

Juan Pierre was talking about this with WFAN's Eddie C after the game the other day. Pierre - who was born in somewhat hard-hit Mobile, Alabama and then grew up in Louisiana - said his family was safe as they mostly lived in the northern part of the state. Just out of curiosity, I looked up the high point for the state of Louisiana. Turns out that the highest point in the state is just over 500 ft above sea level and that's way up near the Arkansas border. Only Florida plus the much smaller Delaware & Rhode Island are "flatter" states.

seawolf17 Sep 05 2005 04:52 AM

Frayed Knot wrote: Just out of curiosity, I looked up the high point for the state of Louisiana. Turns out that the highest point in the state is just over 500 ft above sea level and that's way up near the Arkansas border. Only Florida plus the much smaller Delaware & Rhode Island are "flatter" states. As immortalized (albeit not technically correctly) in the Moxy Fruvous live bit, "The Lowest Highest Point."

cooby Sep 05 2005 08:03 PM

Lundy wrote: If this was such an important project to New Orleans, shouldn't the state and local government--not the Federal government--bear most of the responsibility? Getting back to Lundy's question. The following is from the website of lockhaven.com, which is my home town and is protected by a levee which was HEAVILY opposed by many taxpayers. A happy ending though, it has saved the city of Lock Haven, PA from two major floods since its completion. (Once in January 1996 and again last September after Hurricane Ivan) Flood Protection: The City maintains approximately 6.5 miles of earth levee that consists of 38 drainage structures, 1 sanitary pumping station, 5 ponding areas and several recreation areas. The construction of the levee system was completed in 1994 at a cost of $82.2 million. My point is, as I recall, (but I cannot find the statistics online) the project was one half Federally funded, and one half state and local. I believe the city has a 30 year bond on their cut, but that amount has been more than saved in the two averted disasters.

metirish Sep 05 2005 08:22 PM

About lundy's queation,the US Army Corps of Engineers built and maintain the Levees in New Orleans and just about everywhere else, from their website... ]The USACE is responsible for investigating, developing and maintaining the nation's water and related environmental resources http://www.usace.army.mil/

Vic Sage Sep 06 2005 08:35 AM a letter from Michael Moore

Friday, September 2nd, 2005 Dear Mr. Bush: Any idea where all our helicopters are? It's Day 5 of Hurricane Katrina and thousands remain stranded in New Orleans and need to be airlifted. Where on earth could you have misplaced all our military choppers? Do you need help finding them? I once lost my car in a Sears parking lot. Man, was that a drag. Also, any idea where all our national guard soldiers are? We could really use them right now for the type of thing they signed up to do like helping with national disasters. How come they weren't there to begin with? Last Thursday I was in south Florida and sat outside while the eye of Hurricane Katrina passed over my head. It was only a Category 1 then but it was pretty nasty. Eleven people died and, as of today, there were still homes without power. That night the weatherman said this storm was on its way to New Orleans. That was Thursday! Did anybody tell you? I know you didn't want to interrupt your vacation and I know how you don't like to get bad news. Plus, you had fundraisers to go to and mothers of dead soldiers to ignore and smear. You sure showed her! I especially like how, the day after the hurricane, instead of flying to Louisiana, you flew to San Diego to party with your business peeps. Don't let people criticize you for this -- after all, the hurricane was over and what the heck could you do, put your finger in the dike? And don't listen to those who, in the coming days, will reveal how you specifically reduced the Army Corps of Engineers' budget for New Orleans this summer for the third year in a row. You just tell them that even if you hadn't cut the money to fix those levees, there weren't going to be any Army engineers to fix them anyway because you had a much more important construction job for them -- BUILDING DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ! On Day 3, when you finally left your vacation home, I have to say I was moved by how you had your Air Force One pilot descend from the clouds as you flew over New Orleans so you could catch a quick look of the disaster. Hey, I know you couldn't stop and grab a bullhorn and stand on some rubble and act like a commander in chief. Been there done that. There will be those who will try to politicize this tragedy and try to use it against you. Just have your people keep pointing that out. Respond to nothing. Even those pesky scientists who predicted this would happen because the water in the Gulf of Mexico is getting hotter and hotter making a storm like this inevitable. Ignore them and all their global warming Chicken Littles. There is nothing unusual about a hurricane that was so wide it would be like having one F-4 tornado that stretched from New York to Cleveland. No, Mr. Bush, you just stay the course. It's not your fault that 30 percent of New Orleans lives in poverty or that tens of thousands had no transportation to get out of town. C'mon, they're black! I mean, it's not like this happened to Kennebunkport. Can you imagine leaving white people on their roofs for five days? Don't make me laugh! Race has nothing -- NOTHING -- to do with this! You hang in there, Mr. Bush. Just try to find a few of our Army helicopters and send them there. Pretend the people of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast are near Tikrit. Yours, Michael Moore MMFlint@aol.com

metsmarathon Sep 06 2005 09:49 AM

michael moore is an idiot.

MFS62 Sep 06 2005 11:10 AM

Barbara Bush: Things Working Out "Very Well" for Poor Evacuees from New Orleans By E&P Staff Published: September 05, 2005 7:25 PM ET updated 8:00 PM NEW YORK Accompanying her husband, former President George H.W.Bush, on a tour of hurricane relief centers in Houston, Barbara Bush said today, referring to the poor who had lost everything back home and evacuated, "This is working very well for them." The former First Lady's remarks were aired this evening on National Public Radio's "Marketplace" program. She was part of a group in Houston today at the Astrodome that included her husband and former President Bill Clinton, who were chosen by her son, the current president, to head fundraising efforts for the recovery. Sen. Hilary Clinton and Sen. Barack Obama were also present. In a segment at the top of the show on the surge of evacuees to the Texas city, Barbara Bush said: "Almost everyone I’ve talked to says we're going to move to Houston." Then she added: "What I’m hearing is they all want to stay in Texas. Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality. "And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this--this [she chuckles slightly]is working very well for them."

Benjamin Grimm Sep 06 2005 11:19 AM

This is from a CNN column considering Bush's worst moments in his reaction to Katrina. I heard this quote on the radio, and couldn't believe it: ]Or was it that odd moment when he promised to rebuild Mississippi Senator Trent Lott's house -- a gesture that must have sounded astonishingly tone-deaf to the homeless black citizens still trapped in the postapocalyptic water world of New Orleans. "Out of the rubbles of Trent Lott's house -- he's lost his entire house," cracked Bush, "there's going to be a fantastic house. And I'm looking forward to sitting on the porch." And I didn't hear the exact quote, but I read that Laura Bush was saying that the conditions in New Orleans aren't as bad as the "naysayers" would suggest.

metirish Sep 06 2005 11:27 AM

I saw Barbara and George on Larry King last night, it was pathetic, have they any clue as to what is going on.

cooby Sep 06 2005 11:42 AM

I think they had better watch what they say. Even if they mean well, everything is going to be watched very carefully. I saw the "sitting on his front porch" part but wasn't paying that much attention so I didn't know what he was talking about until now. Wow...

ScarletKnight41 Sep 06 2005 11:49 AM

Jon Stewart is going to have a field day with that statement on The Daily Show tonight.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 06 2005 06:17 PM

From CNN.com: ]The Louisiana Superdome was so heavily damaged by last week's Hurricane Katrina that it likely will have to be torn down, according to a spokeswoman for James Lee Witt, the former Federal Emergency Management Agency director now advising Louisiana's governor. Katrina sheared away much of the roof's covering, and rainwater began leaking into the stadium when it was being used as a shelter of last resort for thousands of residents stranded by the storm. The Superdome is the home of the New Orleans Saints professional football team. The NFL season begins this weekend, and it is not clear where the Saints will play this season.

Edgy DC Sep 06 2005 06:25 PM

Allow me some bs anthropomorphization. That edifice saved a lot of lives. If it goes down, it should be with honor.

metirish Sep 06 2005 09:15 PM

Even with the horror stories of how things were in the Superdome I hate to think what they would have done if it were not there, as for the Football, I was thinking today could/would the Saints even want to play there this season, not that it really matters but I imagine players and fans would not want to go there.

DocTee Sep 06 2005 09:45 PM

Did anyone read about Barbara Bush's visit to the Astrodome to see the evacuees from New Orleans? This is from today's Daily News: "Former First Lady Barbara Bush was about the most chipper visitor yesterday to the Houston Astrodome, where thousands who fled the Hurricane Katrina disaster are sheltered. 'And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this is working very well for them,' the Bush family's matriarch chuckled as she spoke on National Public Radio's 'Marketplace' program." This is a truly unbelievable quote. I'm surprised she didn't say, "Let them eat cake!" Her insensitivity amazes me (as does the incompetence of her son's administration).

Frayed Knot Sep 07 2005 09:27 AM

The thing about football and the Superdome is that there were several pre-flood stories that the Saints ownership had already been trolling for reasons to leave New Orleans for a while now. The owner has business/residences in San Antonio (they're set up in camp there now) and Los Angeles is always out there. ** And while we're on that topic, how the hell does the NFL get a pass for their "great business model" when they've gone over a decade being unable to get a team into the nation's 2nd largest city? ** Back on topic; It's a bit ironic perhaps that the team that was originally put into New Orleans as a result (read: bribe) of the waiving of anti-trust laws to facilitate the NFL/AFL merger (read: takeover) may now pack up and move because the NFL's refusal to set down rules that would compy with anti-trust laws has made their league the model for carpet-bagging franchises.

SwitchHitter Sep 07 2005 05:43 PM I just heard from my friend

My friend called me today. He got out okay and is living with relatives in Houston. I am so glad.

ScarletKnight41 Sep 07 2005 06:05 PM

Whew!

cooby Sep 07 2005 06:40 PM

Great news!

Iubitul Sep 08 2005 06:27 PM

Here's a fascinating read that I found courtesy of Wil Wheaton's blog. This guy has been holed up in an office building in New Orleans since Katrina hit, and has noted everything in [url=http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/2005/08/28/]this blog[/url]

ScarletKnight41 Sep 09 2005 08:35 AM

If you're looking for something to watch on television at 8:00 tonight (what are you going to do otherwise, watch the Mets?), catch the repeat of last night's The Daily Show with Jon Stewart. NBC's Brian Williams was Stewart's guest, and the first hand accounts of being in New Orleans during this crisis are amazing. Over the years Stewart has increasingly taken stands on issues that go beyond simple humor. This week, though, he's been on fire - his criticism of the administration's handling of the situation has been pointed, well-researched, and dead-on accurate. And funny as well - there's a definite need for gallows humor in times of crisis. The fact that the head of FEMA claimed not to have known of those taking refuge in the Convention Center until Williams told him about it last Thursday is beyond belief. Watching footage of that interview, along with Ted Koppel's interview and comments later that night, is eye-opening.

KC Sep 09 2005 09:41 AM

As much as I'm ashamed of what appears to be a complete governmental cluster fuck-up of the whole situation, I think all the pot shots, finger pointing, and satire over all this is just disgusting. Everyone who's didn't get their guy in last November is coming out of the woodwork to get a kick in - and truth- fully, how much different would the response been if Kerry were president? What's he fucking GOD???

Willets Point Sep 09 2005 09:45 AM

If Kerry (or Gore or Clinton) were president the collosal failure of the government would be accepted common wisdom now and impeachment proceedings would be beginning. That's about the only difference. Bush has his shell of right- wing media defenders/distractors as well as pussy liberals afraid to admit the truth because they don't want to look "impolite."

cooby Sep 09 2005 09:49 AM

Some people need to get back to the root of the problem and remember this disaster was initially caused by a hurricane, not a person or persons

KC Sep 09 2005 09:51 AM

And I think there are two r's in arrabiata.

ScarletKnight41 Sep 09 2005 09:54 AM

This goes beyond the cause of the disaster. This is how the disaster was handled, once New Orleans was unequivocally in a state of emergency. This is FEMA not having any clue that thousands of people were taking refuge in the convention center, despite the fact that every major and minor network had focused on this story since day one. Check out the show later (tape it if you must), and then let me know what you think. Brian Williams is not a nutjob, nor is he one to take potshots or offer a lot of opinion. What he recounted will curl your absent hair.

Willets Point Sep 09 2005 10:02 AM

cooby wrote: Some people need to get back to the root of the problem and remember this disaster was initially caused by a hurricane, not a person or persons I agree. The right-wing spin machine can begin by stopping putting the blame on the "silly negros" who didn't evacuate, and basing policy on rumors of violence that are not true. I mean they were slow-footed to actually rescue people (cause it's there own fault they're trapped there right?), but quick to send in the troops with "shoot to kill" orders without even evaluating the veracity of the rumors.

Edgy DC Sep 09 2005 10:14 AM

Somebody called them "silly negros"?

KC Sep 09 2005 10:17 AM

The whole disaster has my hair curled, I don't need to watch the Daily Show.

cooby Sep 09 2005 10:40 AM

I did say "initially", didn't I? Let me check....yes, I did.

rpackrat Sep 09 2005 11:44 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 09 2005 11:50 AM

Under the Clinton administration, FEMA was headed by professionals who knew how to do their jobs, such as James Lee Witt who is now serving as a consultant to the state of Louisiana. Under Bush, it became a repository for political patronage such that 5 of the 8 top officials at FEMA, including "Brownie," had no prior relevant experience. So it's not a question of Kerry or anyone else being "God," it's a question of taking the functions of government seriously. [url]http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/emergency-chiefs-work-credentials-under-cloud/2005/09/09/1125772695737.html?oneclick=true[/url]

MFS62 Sep 09 2005 11:48 AM

Well guess what! NBC: FEMA chief relieved of Katrina duties Report follows controversy over Brown’s qualifications, agency’s response WASHINGTON - Federal Emergency Management Agency Director Michael Brown is being removed from his role managing Hurricane Katrina relief efforts, NBC News and The Associated Press reported Friday. Two federal officials who wouldn't be identified told the AP that Brown is being sent back to Washington from Baton Rouge, La. He was the primary official overseeing the federal government's response to the disaster. NBC learned the same thing from a relief official. FEMA has been criticized for its response to the disaster, and Time magazine on Friday reported that Brown’s official biography overstated his emergency-management experience. Brown's biography on the FEMA Web site says he had once served as an "assistant city manager with emergency services oversight," and a White House news release in 2001 said Brown had worked for the city of Edmond, Okla., in the 1970s "overseeing the emergency-services division." However, a city spokeswoman told the magazine Brown had actually worked as "an assistant to the city manager." "The assistant is more like an intern," Claudia Deakins told the magazine. "Department heads did not report to him." Time posted the article on its Web site late on Thursday. A former mayor of Edmond, Randel Shadid, confirmed that Friday. Shadid told The Associated Press that Brown had been an assistant to the city manager, and never assistant city manager. “I think there’s a difference between the two positions,” said Shadid. “I would think that is a discrepancy.” FEMA, White House response Nicol Andrews, deputy strategic director in FEMA’s office of public affairs, told Time that while Brown began as an intern, he became an “assistant city manager” with a distinguished record of service. “According to Mike Brown,” Andrews told Time, a large portion of points raised by the magazine are “very inaccurate.” White House press secretary Scott McClellan referred all questions about Brown’s resume to FEMA. McClellan said the White House’s earlier statements that Brown retained the president’s confidence remain true — but he declined to state that confidence outright. “I’d leave it where I left it,” McClellan said. “We appreciate the work of all those who have been working around the clock to respond to what has been on the worst natural disasters in our nation’s history.” Other work experience Brown, a lawyer, was appointed as FEMA's general counsel in 2001 and became head of the agency in 2003. The work in Edmond is the only previous disaster-related experience cited in the biographies. Brown served as commissioner of the International Arabian Horse Association before taking the FEMA job. U.S. Sen. Joseph Lieberman, a Connecticut Democrat, had cited Brown's Edmond experience as "particularly useful" for FEMA during a hearing in 2002. Critics, including some Republicans, have blasted Brown for delays and missteps in the federal government's response to Katrina's deadly and devastating assault on the Gulf Coast last week. Some have demanded his ouster. Bush last week gave Brown a word of support, saying "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job." This week, Bush put the U.S. Coast Guard's chief of staff in charge of the federal recovery effort in New Orleans and gave Vice President Dick Cheney the job of cutting through bureaucratic delays. Other FEMA officials The Washington Post reported on Friday that five of eight top FEMA officials had come to their jobs with virtually no experience in handling disasters. The agency's top three leaders, including Brown, had ties to Bush's 2000 presidential campaign or the White House advance operation. Former Edmond city manager Bill Dashner recalled for Time that Brown had worked for him as an administrative assistant while attending Central State University. "Mike used to handle a lot of details. Every now and again I'd ask him to write me a speech. He was very loyal. He was always on time. He always had on a suit and a starched white shirt," Dashner told Time. Edmond's population is about 70,000. Reuters and The Associated Press contributed to this report.

KC Sep 09 2005 11:50 AM

>>>Under Bush, it became a repository for political patronage<<< Hope the next president doesn't do stuff like that.

Edgy DC Sep 09 2005 11:58 AM

I'm missing the source of quotes. Kerry being God, where's that from?

KC Sep 09 2005 12:13 PM

I asked the question, I didn't say someone said it. Pay attention. On edit: I still don't like the the pot shots, finger pointing, and satire when in the midst of a crisis for political gain or revenge for last November's pres- idential election. And anyone who thinks it's not professional smear intended to advance one side's mission is being an ostrich. (if I may)

Edgy DC Sep 09 2005 12:15 PM

Sorry, I see that one. I had missed it.

ScarletKnight41 Sep 09 2005 12:19 PM

I'll disagree with you on the topic of satire. As I said before, there is a time and place for gallows humor (when it's done well). Sometimes you need that chuckle to keep you from just falling apart. I will also contend that there's a difference between finger pointing and not acknowledging major fuck-ups. Granted, there is often a fine line between those two things. In this case, though, there are unfortunately too many serious fuck-ups. To ignore that would also be ostrich-like activity.

cooby Sep 09 2005 12:29 PM

KC Sep 09 2005 12:31 PM

Gallows humor is not for me in this case. The time for finger pointing, calling for heads, acknowledging fuck-ups is after the last body is removed from the toxic muck and properly attended to. I see a coverage circus, and that's just how "I" see it. I'm doing four separate things to help, I'll focus on that and keep the news off. (and the comedic satire)

Willets Point Sep 09 2005 12:35 PM

KC wrote: The time for finger pointing, calling for heads, acknowledging fuck-ups is after the last body is removed from the toxic muck and properly attended to. I see a coverage circus, and that's just how "I" see it. Except that if attention is not brought to the errors being made while they're happening the end result is that there can be more destruction, and more bodies in the toxic muck that otherwise would not be there. This is corrective criticism. That people are waking up to the flaws of ill-conceived government policy that the Bush administration stands for is just a side effect.

Edgy DC Sep 09 2005 12:38 PM

I'm not reading corrective criticism.

cooby Sep 09 2005 12:40 PM

KC wrote: Gallows humor is not for me in this case. The time for finger pointing, calling for heads, acknowledging fuck-ups is after the last body is removed from the toxic muck and properly attended to. I see a coverage circus, and that's just how "I" see it. I'm doing four separate things to help, I'll focus on that and keep the news off ( and the comedic satire) Me too. And I am saying goodbye to this thread as well because I am getting very pissed off. Again.

seawolf17 Sep 09 2005 12:41 PM

I'm always up for gallows humor. I don't think anyone is insinuating that left-wing politicans and media pundits aren't taking this opportunity to bash the right. They bash whoever is in charge when screwups of this magnitude happen. You can't just watch the news and take it as gospel; you have to understand where the media is coming from, and draw your own conclusions. Fact is, people died because someone (or multiple someones) screwed up. If the glut of media attention helps prevent future administrations -- and I mean all "powers that be," not just presidential; Ray Nagin and the local authorities have a great deal of culpability in this also -- then it's beneficial, whether you like the pictures or not.

ScarletKnight41 Sep 09 2005 12:47 PM

seawolf17 wrote: Fact is, people died because someone (or multiple someones) screwed up. If the glut of media attention helps prevent future administrations -- and I mean all "powers that be," not just presidential; Ray Nagin and the local authorities have a great deal of culpability in this also -- then it's beneficial, whether you like the pictures or not. Exactly!

KC Sep 09 2005 12:54 PM

I guess part of me got into argumentative mode (which doesn't take much these days) because Ms. Knight couldn't wait for The Daily Show to get this in their clutches and then she had to promote it and then tell us to watch it regardless of how we feel even if we have to record it and then report to her on our viewing. I just don't like stuff like that, and if need be we'll continue this conversation via email to keep it "out of everyone's face". It's not like we haven't argued about stuff before.

Willets Point Sep 09 2005 12:54 PM

Edgy DC wrote: I'm not reading corrective criticism. Answer me honestly, do you think that the outrage of the Administration's feeble response in the first five days or so of the crisis had no influence on the Administration improving their efforts? You really thing the cries of "We need to help these people now!" really just meant "We need to elect our candidate in 2008!"? As you've said, we all must do our part, which I agree with you on and I've been doing my best. But this disaster needs someone with helicopters, amphibious vehicles, dredges, large supplies of food, water, and money, and emergency shelter among other things. I don't have most of those things and neither do you, but the government does and it's part of the contract of the government with the people that the government respond in this sort of emergency. Our current Administration responded poorly, people criticized, and the Administration responded to criticism. Regardless, the people are still angry and I think have the right to be angry when they've been so clearly wronged.

KC Sep 09 2005 12:58 PM

And one more thing - LOOPER.

seawolf17 Sep 09 2005 01:02 PM

Hey! Can the Mets donate Looper to the relief efforts? That would be a nice gesture.

Edgy DC Sep 09 2005 01:05 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 09 2005 01:24 PM

]Answer me honestly, do you think that the outrage of the Administration's feeble response in the first five days or so of the crisis had no influence on the Administration improving their efforts? I assume you mean "at" the administration's response. Yes, public pressure leads to government response. ]You really thing the cries of "We need to help these people now!" really just meant "We need to elect our candidate in 2008!"? Reading back in this thread, I'm not seeing cries of"We need to help these people now!" (Well, last week, yes, but that certainly wasn't what I've been reading of late.) Did someone really say "silly negros"?

ScarletKnight41 Sep 09 2005 01:08 PM

Sorry you reacted badly to that, Bro. But, honestly, I found Barbara Bush's "Let them eat cake"-esque statement to be the most insensitive and repulsive statement possible in the light of the human suffering caused by Katrina. And yes, I was looking forward for someone to hold it up to scrutiny and point out how ridiculous it was. In the end, The Daily Show merely used the clip as a sound/video bite at the end of a segment. The Daily Show obviously uses humor, but it also provides some interesting commentary and opinion backed by research. I'm guessing that you don't watch the show, because if you were more familiar with it I don't think that my suggestion for people to watch the coverage would have upset you so much. And the interview with Brian Williams was anything but satiric - it was a serious interview about the state of things in New Orleans, and it's not a pretty picture. Give it a shot before dismissing it out of hand.

Willets Point Sep 09 2005 01:29 PM

Edgy DC wrote: Yes, public pressure leads to government response. Good nice and concise. That's the point I'm trying to drive at. ]Reading back in this thread, I'm not seeing cries of"We need to help these people now!" I was refering to the general world-wide response of angry criticism of the president and his administration being driven by this motive more so than cheap potshots or opportunists looking to gain electoral advantage. ]Did someone really say "silly negros"? Yes, I did. It is summary of the subtext from several right-wing blogers and journalists I've read who are trying to shift the blame of the poor disaster response to New Orleans' poor black residents who are typified as irresponsible and violent welfare queens and thus unworthy of mercy and aid. Of course, my arguing with right-wing bloggers and journalists in this thread is about as confusing as you arguing with your co-workers in this thread. Sorry about that.

rpackrat Sep 09 2005 02:04 PM

Edgy, I'm not trying to be provocative, so please don't take it that way. But you keep insisting that you're not a Bush supporter, didn't vote for him, etc., and yet you keep coming across as a Bush apologist. Anyone who criticizes the administration is being crassly political and inappropriate, time and time again, regardless of the issue.

Edgy DC Sep 09 2005 02:14 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Sep 09 2005 03:18 PM

I credited my co-workers right up front. I read from your post crediting the amorphous "right-wing spin machine" that such a phrase had an official provenance. If you're summarizing, you shouldn't use quotes. It's a mis-representation. A whole lot of people are using this to make insinuations of racism. I live in a majority black city angry enough at government as it is, pretty upset about this whole mess, and with a history of rioting. Such accusations aren't corrective criticism. They're an emotional bomb. ]I agree. The right-wing spin machine can begin by stopping putting the blame on the "silly negros" who didn't evacuate, and basing policy on rumors of violence that are not true. I mean they were slow-footed to actually rescue people (cause it's there own fault they're trapped there right?), but quick to send in the troops with "shoot to kill" orders without even evaluating the veracity of the rumors. Now, you're clearly referring to administration sources here, and not the conservative blogosphere, because bloggers don't make policy, nor are they the ones who you mean were slow to rescue anybody. So I'm reading that the administration is (a) blaming this crisis on black people bringing trouble on themselves through their own silliness, (b) acting on mis-information based on racist preconceptions, and (c) sending in guardsmen to kill blacks. I'm practically ready to riot myself. The shoot-to-kill order meanwhile came from the governor. The Democratic governor. I also don't think ]If Kerry (or Gore or Clinton) were president the collosal failure of the government would be accepted common wisdom now and impeachment proceedings would be beginning. That's about the only difference. Bush has his shell of right- wing media defenders/distractors as well as pussy liberals afraid to admit the truth because they don't want to look "impolite." is remotely true or qualifies as corrective criticism. I appreciate the opposition to spin. But we should start by reisisting the urge to engage in it.

Edgy DC Sep 09 2005 02:15 PM

]and yet you keep coming across as a Bush apologist. Anyone who criticizes the administration is being crassly political and inappropriate, time and time again, regardless of the issue. Yeah, for example?

Edgy DC Sep 09 2005 02:25 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 09 2005 03:20 PM

The administration has failed, clearly and largely. A lot of people have failed. There will be plenty of time to sort out and enumerate it, but what I'm hearing, and now reading in this thread have been useless cheap shots and selective judgment to hang this at the administration's door and so put him and his people out of business. Which doesn't help victim one, which makes it all crass and cheap and heartless. And really really counterproductive. You don't like patronage jobs? Neither do I! (And I've lived next door to, worked with, and dated the benficiaries of patronage largess.) Do you really think such a practice began with Bush? When we're done throwing Bush out of office, are we going to start a nonprofit watchdog dedicated to keeping both parties from patronage jobs or are we going to party like it's 1999? Here, Charles Krauthamer, clear but exacting administration critic to the point of tearing his hair out of his head. Today, he's tearing his hair out at people who confuse cheap scapegoating for political action and activism.

Edgy DC Sep 09 2005 02:35 PM

See, show me someone more willing to give equal time to examining the failures of the governor and mayor, I'm all ears. And, it's always worth pointing out that failure doesn't equal deliberate misconduct and wanton and wilfull indifference to suffering. It's important distinction. The first gets people rightly voted out of office when the time comes. The second leads to civil disturbances.

ScarletKnight41 Sep 09 2005 02:39 PM

Edgy DC wrote: And, it's always worth pointing out that failure doesn't equal deliberate misconduct and wanton and wilfull indifference to suffering. True. Barbara Bush prattling on about how things have worked out so nicely for the refugees in the Astrodome, however, is the definition of wanton and wilful indifference to suffering.

MFS62 Sep 09 2005 02:45 PM

Her comment can be seen as being right up there with "Let them eat cake" on the list of the most callous and insensitive utterances - ever. Later

Willets Point Sep 09 2005 02:46 PM

Edgy DC wrote: A whole lot of people are using this to make insinuations of racism. But you know what? There is racism! Folks these days are just smart enough to not blatantly say silly negros (quotation marks left off for your benefit) while marching about in white robes. I'd think that you would know enough about the ways of the world to spot racism without a caricature of a racist popping up to explain it all to you. I'd think you'd also know that there are other uses for quotation marks than for direct quotes. This definition fits my usage: ]Use quotation marks to indicate words used ironically, with reservations, or in some unusual way.

Willets Point Sep 09 2005 02:49 PM

Edgy DC wrote: See, show me someone more willing to give equal time to examining the failures of the governor and mayor, I'm all ears. The Mayor of New Orleans is a putz. The governor of Louisiana is a fucktard. Happy?

Edgy DC Sep 09 2005 03:03 PM

If you want to be irionic, be ironic. I think clarity would help a lot more than further obscuring the situation. I have no doubt that there is racisim in people, great and small. I encounter it every day. I have no doubt that some people in government more than have racisim in them, but are flat-out bigots. I little doubt that some stories among evacuees of being cut off from escape or safety by racist cops are true. No doubt white people turned on black people and black people turned on white people. But the city did not drown because the administration is systemically racist, which is what's being suggested; the city drowned because of a hurricane. The mayor held the line on evacuating, despite the urging of the bumbling president. Was he racist? I think it would be best to consider Hanlon’s Razor before suggesting the president is a would-be klansman too cool and conniving to be photographed with his hood, clever enough to wait for a hurricane to advance his racist agenda, but you know, a messup in all other aspects.

Rotblatt Sep 09 2005 03:12 PM

Some nice exchanges from newly fiesty reporters. A salient point on why the government should be able to assess what it did wrong and do its job at the same time in bold. ]Q Well, the President has said that this government can do many things at once: It can fight the war on terror, it can do operations in Iraq, and aid and comfort people in Louisiana. Can it not also find time to begin to hold people accountable? It sounds, Scott, as if the line that you're giving us -- which is, you don't want to answer questions about accountability because there's too much busy work going on -- MR. McCLELLAN: Wrong. No, wrong. Q -- is a way of ducking accountability. MR. McCLELLAN: You don't want to take away from the efforts that are going on right now. And if you start getting into that now, you're pulling people out that are helping with the ongoing response, Terry. Not at all. The President made it very clear, I'm going to lead this effort and we're going to make sure we find out what the facts were and what went wrong and what went right. But you don't want to divert resources away from an ongoing response to a major catastrophe. And this is a major catastrophe that we -- and we must remain focused on saving lives and sustaining lives and planning for the long-term. And that's what we're doing. Q And there are people in Louisiana and Mississippi who are doing that job very well. Your job is to answer the questions. MR. McCLELLAN: And I have. Q By saying you won't answer. MR. McCLELLAN: No, by saying that there's a time to look at those issues, but now is not the time, Terry. ]Q One last question. The person who says that he found out about the Convention Center seeing it on the media -- that is to say the FEMA Director -- is still in place. Is that satisfactory that somebody would have responded like that? MR. McCLELLAN: Again, this is getting into -- we're somewhat engaged in a blame game. We've got to -- Q It's not a blame game. That's accountability -- MR. McCLELLAN: Terry, we've got to -- Q It's accountability. MR. McCLELLAN: Yes. Q Is "Brownie" still doing a "heck of a job," according to the President? MR. McCLELLAN: We've got to continue to do everything we can in support of those who are involved in the operational aspects of this response effort. And that's what we're going to do. There will be plenty of time -- Q If he fails at it, he's not going to be good at it going forward. That's what Bob is saying. ]Q Well, let's talk about it. Are you saying the President is -- are you saying that the President is confident that his administration is prepared to adequately, confidently secure the American people in the event of a terrorist attack of a level that we have not seen? And based on what does he have that confidence? MR. McCLELLAN: Yes, and that's what he made clear earlier today, that obviously we want to look and learn lessons from a major catastrophe of this nature. Q Yes, but you're telling us today there will be time for that somewhere down the road. Well, what if it happens tomorrow? MR. McCLELLAN: We can engage in this blame-gaming going on and I think that's what you're getting -- Q No, no. That's a talking point, Scott, and I think most people who are watching this -- MR. McCLELLAN: No, that's a fact. I mean, some are wanting to engage in that, and we're going to remain focused -- Q I'm asking a direct question. Is he confident -- MR. McCLELLAN: We're going to remain focused on the people. Q -- that he can secure the American people in the event of a major terrorist attack? MR. McCLELLAN: We are securing the American people by staying on the offensive abroad and working to spread freedom and democracy in the Middle East. Q That's a talking point. That's a talking point. MR. McCLELLAN: No, that's a fact. Go ahead. Q No, it's not. And you think people who are watching this think that's -- from what does he derive that confidence, based on the response -- MR. McCLELLAN: David, I'm interested in the people in the region that have been affected and getting them help. We can sit here and engage in this back and forth -- Q The whole country is watching and wondering about some -- MR. McCLELLAN: The time for bickering and blame-gaming is later. The time for helping people in the region is now.

Willets Point Sep 09 2005 03:19 PM

You win. I'm too tired to carry on this discussion. I don't even know what Hanlon's Razor is. Please be gracious and don't respond to this. I give up. I suck.

rpackrat Sep 09 2005 03:42 PM

] I still don't like the the pot shots, finger pointing, and satire when in the midst of a crisis for political gain or revenge for last November's pres- idential election. And anyone who thinks it's not professional smear intended to advance one side's mission is being an ostrich. (if I may) Well, here's one of those ostriches from the National Review Online, no doubt seeking revenge for last November's presidential election: ]THE COST OF CRONYISM [Rod Dreher] It would be very wrong, I believe, to let the ignominious Michael Brown be the scapegoat for FEMA's sins. Check out this front-pager from the WaPo. Turns out that a raft of FEMA's top leaders have little or no emergency management experience, but are instead politically well connected to the GOP and the White House. This is a scandal, a real scandal. How is it possible that four years after 9/11, the president treats a federal agency vital to homeland security as a patronage prize? The main reason I've been a Bush supporter all along is I trusted him (note past tense) on national security -- which, in the age of mass terrorism, means homeland security too. Call me naive, but it's a real blow to learn that political hacks have been running FEMA, of all agencies of the federal government! What if al-Qaeda had blown the New Orleans levees? How much worse would the crony-led FEMA's response have been? Would conservatives stand for any of this for one second if a Democrat were president? If this is what Republican government means, God help the poor GOP Congressmen up for re-election in 2006. At least some on the right get it, KC (if I may).

rpackrat Sep 09 2005 03:45 PM

]Quote: and yet you keep coming across as a Bush apologist. Anyone who criticizes the administration is being crassly political and inappropriate, time and time again, regardless of the issue. Yeah, for example? Edgy, I don't have the time or the inclination to sift through your tens of thousands of posts on this forum and the old one. You know as well as I (and everyone else here) do that whenever such an issue comes up, you leap to Bush's defense and castigate all critics, but then insist that you're not a Bush supporter, that you're the voice of reason, and it's only those of us who criticize Bush who are politically motivated.

Rockin' Doc Sep 09 2005 03:52 PM

seawolf - "Hey! Can the Mets donate Looper to the relief efforts? That would be a nice gesture" Those poor souls have enough problems as it is.

KC Sep 09 2005 03:58 PM

>>>At least some on the right get it, KC <<< Good for them, I'm a voting registered Independent and vote both sides of the aisle. I implore everyone to not let the stress of this crisis and each persons political views to make everyone angry with each other. This is a good METS forum, let's not forget that. We have a wild card to win, er, uh, ya know ... whatever.

ScarletKnight41 Sep 09 2005 04:25 PM

You're just shifting the Blame Game to WWSB. I see your strategy - you're going to tie in the Mets suckitude to the relief effort's suckitude!

Edgy DC Sep 09 2005 04:49 PM

]You know as well as I (and everyone else here) do that whenever such an issue comes up, you leap to Bush's defense and castigate all critics, but then insist that you're not a Bush supporter, that you're the voice of reason... No, I don't. I pedantically and annoyingly try to steer the argument toward the issue and away from cheap bashing and demagoguery and inflammatory accusations. (I must look up these terms tonight.) That way, the issue can be resolved rather than just changing the people in office while the issue is perpetuated, though sublimated in the illusion of a new beginning --- until the next crisis. ]...and it's only those of us who criticize Bush who are politically motivated. Is there somebody taking a cheap shot at, say, Sen. Charles Schumer, that I'm giving a free pass to? Believe me, Denny and Paulie and other critics of the left at the MOFo found me much more annoying than you do. Oh, crap, I resovled never ever to post about Paulie publicly. This will get back to him in about 12 seconds. I'm very glad that Brown's boner got him replaced and I hope it helps.

metsmarathon Sep 09 2005 11:26 PM

does it make more sense to collect and sift through the facts and prepare a measured, thoughtful response to them, or simply react to a smattering of facts (with a few nonfacts thrown in for good measure, be they deliberately or not) that are often selectively being brought forth for their shock value? the scale of this disaster will not fade if time is taken to ensure that the proper steps are taken to not have this happen ever again. if we focus all our ire on, say, bush, would we not risk complacency after his head rolls? if our response is primarily reactionary, is based on our initial impressions, and is motivated by previously held political agendae, then our response will be insufficient, and teh necessary changes will not be made. ... at least as much attention needs be paid to our preparation in advance of this storm both in general and in the few days prior, as to the response to teh aftermath. additionally, attention needs to be paid to the movements of resources in the immediate aftermath, and the evaluations of the damage done to new orleans both before and after the levees were discovered to have breached. where were teh troops on monday? where were tehy headed? how were tehy equipped? what were teh initial damage assessments of new orleans? when did the levees breach? when did that information get transferred to a responding agency? what were the national guard doing when they were informed? how long did it take them to get to new orleans and why? was it because of necessary or required procedure, or incompetence/error/willful misconduct? could hte procedures be improved to allow the more rapid movement of national guardsmen into disaster-struck regions? what were the roles and responsibilities of local, state, and federal agencies prior to, during, and after the hurricane, including general preparation and flood prevention? how did they respond to those roles and responsibilities? of the things they did right, were some of those in fact the wrong things to have done? how do you change those roles and responsibilites for future events? whose responsibility was the levee system? who should have eben maintaining them? whose job was it to gfight for funding? how hard did they fight for it? when they did receive funding, how did they spend it? how did they prioritize the levees? has anyone been fighting for category-5-resistant levees? if not, why? what were the lessons learned for local state and federal agencies? what were tehy from the scientific community? how can these be applied to other cities at risk of hurricanes or other disasteres, both manmade and natural? how can we improve the flood tolerance of our major cities? how can we improve the evacuations of major cities and population centers? how should we re-prioritize our federal funding? should we be more concerned about longterm risk reduction, or short-term gains? is it worth building multibillion dollar systems to protect us against 200-yr, or even 10,000-yr storms and events? can we afford to underestimate and underreact to the next major disaster event? can we afford to overestimate and overreact to the next major disaster? ... the answers to these questions and many many others that must be answered are easily lost in the blame game.

MFS62 Sep 10 2005 07:38 AM

Edgy, I think Thon just steered us back toward the issues - all of them. When things calm down, I'll post a story of my own personal, frustrating, experiences with the Ct. State Department of Homeland Security. (I think I may have already done so, but can't remember where) If that experience was close to typical about the DHS executives around the country, none of what I read about our ability to secure our citizens really surprises me. Later

Willets Point Sep 10 2005 09:31 AM

I apologize to everyone - especially Edgy and KC - for being a total dick in this thread yesterday. I've learned a lot from what everyone has to say. Thank you.

cooby Sep 10 2005 10:53 AM

Willets you are one of the last people on earth I would ever consider to be a dick.

MFS62 Sep 10 2005 11:53 AM

But he is also one of the few people on this board who would actually apologize. WP, you're one of the good "folks". Later

Edgy DC Sep 10 2005 01:06 PM

The dick list is short, with no permanent members. I don't put Willets on it. Sorry for my part in prolonging any ill will.

KC Sep 10 2005 07:02 PM

>>>I apologize to everyone - especially Edgy and KC - for being a total dick in this thread yesterday. I've learned a lot from what everyone has to say.<<< No need, I'm a dick two, three, times a week here depending on the wind.

Willets Point Sep 12 2005 07:18 AM

The Saints come marching in.

rpackrat Sep 12 2005 12:57 PM

]does it make more sense to collect and sift through the facts and prepare a measured, thoughtful response to them, or simply react to a smattering of facts (with a few nonfacts thrown in for good measure, be they deliberately or not) that are often selectively being brought forth for their shock value? Yes, it makes more sense. Unfortunately, it never works out that way. If the smoke is allowed to clear, those responsible manage to shift the focus ("what's that? the worst terrorist attack in U.S. history? Well, -- Look over there, it's Saddam Hussein and we think we once heard someone say he was trying to buy yellowcake uranium in Niger!!!! We can't let the smoking gun be a mushroom cloud, and if you disagree with anything we say then you clearly hate America!") So, if we all act in a calm and civilized manner, past experience tells us that all that will happen is that nobody will be held accountable.

metsmarathon Sep 12 2005 05:04 PM

well, you could also use that as an example of rushing into a decision without having enough information beforehand...

Edgy DC Sep 12 2005 09:06 PM

rpackrat, are you really advocating forsaking calm and civility? You have to realize that this just plays into the hands of those you oppose.

sharpie Sep 12 2005 09:50 PM

The town of Delacroix featured in the Bob Dylan song "Tangled Up In Blue" has apparently been completely destroyed by Katrina. So I ended up in New Orleans, just happy to be employed Workin' for a while on a fishing boat just outside of Delacroix Bob Dylan Hurricane Katrina songs: Tangled Up In Blue High Water Crash On the Levee (Down in the Flood) Shelter From the Storm Hurricane

rpackrat Sep 13 2005 09:27 AM

]rpackrat, are you really advocating forsaking calm and civility? No, I am not. I am advocating the invitations to forego looking into the massive fuck ups while outrage is fresh because experience shows that, given time, Bushco.TM will come up with some distraction to avoid any serious inquiry. To plagiarize one of my favorite commentators: ]Deja Vu All Over Again BUSH:"Look, there will be plenty of time to play the blame game," he said. "That's what you're trying to do. You're trying to say somebody is at fault. And, look, I want to know. I want to know exactly what went on and how it went on, and we'll continually assess inside my administration." Yes, he always wants to know the truth. Indeed he demands it. BUSH: ... There's just too many leaks. And if there is a leak out of my administration, I want to know who it is. And if the person has violated law, the person will be taken care of. [...] I want to know the truth. If anybody has got any information inside our administration or outside our administration, it would be helpful if they came forward with the information so we can find out whether or not these allegations are true and get on about the business. He has held his staff to the highest standards on that case and I'm sure he'll do the same on this one. (Now that poor little Brownie has resigned, some enterprising reporter needs to tell him that he's measured for a scapegoat suit. He might be feeling raw enough to spill some beans.)

Edgy DC Sep 13 2005 09:32 AM

Well this is all over the board.

metsmarathon Sep 13 2005 10:27 AM

so, the 9-11 commission report was a waste of time, and not a serious inquiry? i know, i know, not nearly enough of it has been implemented and not nearly enough of the lessons have been truly learned, but in the course of that investigation, it identified many lesser failures that a cursory examination would have missed. these lesser failures - a memo not deemed important enough to be read, poor cooperation and communication between governmental agencies, a lack of adequate arab-language translators, a cockpit door left unlocked despite warnings, the list goes on - are part of the bigger picture, true, but until you get into the weeds, you don't know just what to fix and where. i'm not going to try and tell you that the bush administration did an exemplary job in learning the lessons of 9-11, and moving forward form there, but at teh very least, the 9-11 commission did an excellent job of putting hte lesson plan together, for a future, perhaps more competent administration to implement. a full investigation of katrina should be demanded, and lessons learned from it. there's just no way to do that while the wounds are fresh. you could easily make the case that the bush administration used the fresh wound of 9-11 to push through an unrelated iraq war agenda. in fact, that's what leftco has been clamoring all along. i'm not sure why you are in such a rush to possibly have some other agenda rushed through without it being clearly thought out and investigated beforehand. should the DHS be abandoned? abolished? should laws governing the use of federal troops in law enforcement be rewritten? should FEMA be given overriding control uber alles? wouldnt it make sense to put some good thought into these and other decisions? what if making our nation better prepared for natural disasters changes how we are prepared for manmade (terrorist) disasters? should we swing back the pendulam all the way (as is typical in an overreacting way), or strike a balance between both needs? if you heap all (or most ) of the blame on bush, you let the army corps, the national guard, the military, congress, the governor, mayor, levee board, and many others off the hook, when they might actually be more at fault. if bush is truly the most responsible party, then he should burn. i've no problem with that. but you'll do a better job learning from this disaster and preventing future occurences by investigating it, that by simply reacting to it.

Willets Point Sep 13 2005 01:03 PM

Look what commie, American-hating, Osama bin Ladin coddling, leftie wingnut is saying that Bush is responsible for the government's failures now!

metsmarathon Sep 13 2005 02:44 PM

and that's exactly the same as it being his fault, i suppose.

rpackrat Sep 13 2005 02:51 PM

Yes, marathon, the 9/11 comission, which Bush adamantly opposed, did everything he could think of to prevent from ever convening, and stonewalled in his own testimony, did a pretty good job. Had those of us in favor of accountable government merely sat back and accepted Bush's excuses for why such a comission would be a hindrance to national security, it would never have happened. Thank you. That is an excellent illustration of my point.

metsmarathon Sep 13 2005 03:20 PM

i fail to see how a thoughtful, diligent investigation into a national disaster makes the point that we should rush to set blame (be it at bush, or the mayor, or the governor, or penguins - whichever) in the wake of another national disaster. maybe i'm missing something.

Edgy DC Sep 13 2005 03:31 PM

This is going in circles. ]rp: "So, if we all act in a calm and civilized manner, past experience tells us that all that will happen is that nobody will be held accountable." Me: "rpackrat, are you really advocating forsaking calm and civility?" rp: "No, I am not. I am advocating the invitations to forego looking into the massive fuck ups while outrage is fresh because experience shows that, given time, Bushco.TM will come up with some distraction to avoid any serious inquiry." mm: "so, the 9-11 commission report was a waste of time, and not a serious inquiry?" rp: "Yes, marathon, the 9/11 comission, which Bush adamantly opposed, did everything he could think of to prevent from ever convening, and stonewalled in his own testimony, did a pretty good job. Had those of us in favor of accountable government merely sat back and accepted Bush's excuses for why such a comission would be a hindrance to national security, it would never have happened. Thank you. That is an excellent illustration of my point." So, even when you twice contradict yourself, somehow the statements that point that out prove your point.

ScarletKnight41 Sep 14 2005 10:10 AM

If you want a blue bracelet to go with your orange Mets one, singer Marc Broussard is selling [url=http://www.awarestore.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=stores&ARTIST_ID=3375&ACTION=SHOW_CAT&CATEGORY_ID=3&CFID=4918026&CFTOKEN=61528212]these[/url] to aid Hurricane Katrina relief. Broussard is from Louisiana, so this cause is clearly important to him.

rpackrat Sep 14 2005 01:05 PM

Not even one contradiction, edgy, let alone two, though we know that little things like accuracy will never stand in the way of you attempting to score rhetorical points. The 9/11 comission happened ONLY because the political pressure stayed strong. Bush did all he could to forestall the comission, kept claiming, as he has in this case, that the time for affixing blame was somewhere down the road (preferably long after he left office), and even then tried to avoid testifying, refused to appear alone to testify (he made a joint appearance with Cheney), and tried to keep his then-National Security Advisor from testifying. Again, he relented somewhat only because the political pressure was too great for him to do otherwise. Now, shades of 9/11, Preidential surrogates are saying that no independent investigation is necessary because Congress and the Executive Branch are capable (in their opinion) of investigating themselves. Like 9/11, there will be no independent investigation absent relentless political pressure demanding one. That is why the demands for accountability NOW are entirely appropriate.

Edgy DC Sep 14 2005 01:20 PM

I think accuracy is all I'm going for here. If you can't read two clear contradictions, we're both lost.

rpackrat Sep 14 2005 01:32 PM

Then I guess we are, because I honestly don't see it. Again, my point was pretty simple. The 9/11 comission happened only because of political pressure. Therefore, the political pressure being brought to bear over New Orleans is a positive thing because it will (hopefully) lead to a sober and reasonably objective evaluation of what went wrong and how to avoid repeating them in the future.

metsmarathon Sep 14 2005 02:05 PM

can we all agree that applying or demanding political pressure to investigate is a little different than rushing to affix blame, and move out in our responses in accordance with that principle?

Edgy DC Sep 14 2005 02:32 PM

Agreed.

KC Sep 14 2005 02:40 PM

Agreed, until Hillary is president. Then everything will be her fault.

Rockin' Doc Sep 14 2005 03:33 PM

If Hillary becomes president, I think I'll movie to Canada.

Edgy DC Sep 14 2005 07:54 PM

Easy, Alec.

Edgy DC Sep 21 2005 01:38 PM

Mets making their move.

Edgy DC Sep 23 2005 09:47 AM

More flodding hitting New Orleans.

Willets Point Jan 19 2006 01:58 PM

Michael Brown admits FEMA was to blame for slow response to Katrina. Acknowledges that the disaster was beyond capabilities of local and state governments. Hindsight is 20/20 of course but it's nice to see he can take responsibility after the fact. Hopefully this will help in creating better disaster preparedness for the future.

rpackrat Apr 27 2006 12:01 PM

As I was saying before being accused of being a shrill partisan: ]A Senate committee is declaring FEMA so thoroughly broken that it ought to be taken apart and rebuilt from scratch. "We have concluded that FEMA is in shambles and beyond repair, and that it should be abolished," Sen. Susan Collins, the Republican chairwoman of the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee, writes in a statement accompanying the committee's report on its Katrina investigation. As the Washington Post reports, the committee's report faults the Bush administration for, among other things, "failing to fund and coordinate disaster readiness efforts after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks ... for emphasizing terrorism at the expense of natural disaster preparedness ... for bungling the storm response by neglecting warnings, failing to grasp Katrina's destructiveness [and] doing too little or taking the wrong steps before the Aug. 29 landfall."

Benjamin Grimm Apr 27 2006 12:21 PM

I don't understand this conclusion, though. You can't abolish FEMA without replacing it with something else. Replacing it with something else would mean new people and a new structure. I think that replacing FEMA and overhauling it would be pretty much the same thing: Why is FEMA broken "beyond repair"? All "FEMA" is is a four-letter acronym. I'm afraid that this proposed change is just lipstick on the pig. Replace FEMA with an equally screwed-up agency, but with a different name. That way it'll look like something new. The quote above doesn't mention it, but in the report I heard on NPR this morning, the new agency (which already has a proposed name, which I forget) would still be part of Homeland Security. I have to wonder, what's the point of this, other than eradicating the name FEMA, which has become a late-night punchline. (David Letterman last week: "It's the one hundredth anniversary of the San Francisco earthquake. FEMA will be there any day now.") If you want to fix the problem, give FEMA new bosses, not a new nickname.

Willets Point Apr 27 2006 12:28 PM

"Lipstick on the Pig" is a great band name.

rpackrat Apr 27 2006 03:15 PM

I agree YSG. I wasn't pointing to (nor did I propose) eliminating FEMA, just pointing to the Senate's (and my earlier) conclusions that FEMA's incompetence and other problems in N.O. were substantially the fault of administration incompetence and cronyism. FEMA was highly-regarded by the end of the Clinton administration. I see no reason why it cannot once again become a profesionally managed agency.

Edgy DC Apr 27 2006 03:41 PM

]As I was saying before being accused of being a shrill partisan: What were you saying?

rpackrat Apr 28 2006 02:21 PM

]What were you saying? You were too busy accusing me of shrill partisanship to notice.

Edgy DC Apr 28 2006 02:44 PM

Which post was that?

rpackrat Apr 28 2006 03:54 PM

Gee, there are so many to choose from. Please feel free to review the last 14 pages and choose your own favorites.

Edgy DC Apr 28 2006 03:55 PM

I read it twice. How many non-answers am I going to get?

ScarletKnight41 May 17 2006 07:50 PM

[url=http://www.nola.com/katrina/graphics/flashflood.swf]Interactive Graphic of The Flooding[/url]