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The Blame Game

Most culpable?

The hitters: 7 R, 14 H, 9 LOB, no runs after the fourth	5 votes
Pedro: 5 IP, 5 ER	7 votes
The bullpen: 7 1/3 IP, 3 ER	2 votes
Combination of the above (write-in)	1 votes
Other (write-in)	1 votes

Elster88 Aug 26 2008 10:42 PM

[url]http://cranepoolforum.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=9992[/url] Einstein says it was the hitters fault. 7 R, 14 H, 9 LOB, no runs after the fourth. The starters: Pedro gave up 5 runs in 5 innings. The bullpen: 2 runs in the 6th through the 9th, 3 in the 6th through the 13th. They gave up the game tying in the 9th and the winning in the 13th.

Nymr83 Aug 26 2008 11:18 PM

When the question is phrased, as it is above, as "most" culpable any answer besides "Pedro" is nonsense. Are others "also" culpable? sure, but not nearly to the extent of pedro. if i were doing a reverse-schaffer vote heres my culpability: Pedro -6 (5 runs over 5) Schoenweis -1 (leadoff triple essentially ended it) Ayala -1 Sanchez -1/3 Feliciano -1/3 Church -1 (0-6, 4 LOB) Castro -1/3 (0-3, 3 LOB)

AG/DC Aug 27 2008 12:07 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Aug 27 2008 07:19 AM

Teams win. Teams lose. Any number of guys had opportunities to pick up any number of guys. I hold Castillo blameless, but suspiciously so. He's still a person of interest. I don't hang too much on Manuel for putting relievers in to pitch to one or two batters. They failed in their favorable matchups and were confronted with unfavorable ones, against a hitting team, in a hitter's park. I am kind of pissed at him and Beltran for not trying to bunt their way on (Jerry gets to run the bases too if he called the bunt) when the Phils had catcher Carlos Ruiz in his first ever game at third. Exploit weaknesses and avoid strengths. That's all a manager can do. Jerry sure seemed OK with the latter. The former, not so much.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Aug 27 2008 05:12 AM

Einstein the issue we have isn't "blame" but rather the dumb assessment that the offense "did its job" on a night where they left men on 3rd less than 2 out three times and went 9 scoreless innings. Nobody should dispute Pedro sucked and is deserving of blame. I think he should retire. But after his damage had been done and a 7 run lead was a 2 run lead you can no longer say the O "did its job" particularly when the "job" is to score more runs than the other team.

metirish Aug 27 2008 06:34 AM

Who is Einstein supposed to be?

John Cougar Lunchbucket Aug 27 2008 07:06 AM

Anyone who thinks 7 runs is enough when the other team scores 8

metirish Aug 27 2008 07:24 AM

Ahh I get it now , reading the last few pages of the IGT. I went to bed at midnight after watching another futile at bat by the Mets, as much as anything from this game I will take away how horrible the at bats were for the Mets all night but especially the later innings.

AG/DC Aug 27 2008 07:27 AM

Just seems to be little situation awareness. I mean, don't make me miss Paul Lo Duca, because I don't want to do that.

holychicken Aug 27 2008 07:42 AM

I think that the BP is the LEAST culpable for this loss. 7 Runs is a bunch and SHOULD be enough, obviously it was not, but the Mets also SHOULD have scored more often than they did. They blew a ton of chances. . . and pedro walking 2 people in an inning with a 7 run lead is unacceptable.

Frayed Knot Aug 27 2008 07:54 AM

The leadoff double to a relief pitcher wasn't a great idea either. Yeah I know it was pretty much a lucky/well-placed grounder - but that AB changed the whole inning from a leadoff out to a RiSP and the top of that lineup licking their chops.

soupcan Aug 27 2008 07:58 AM

All of the above - but the bullpen seems to just be pure death this year and last. In all my years of watching baseball I've never seen a team so consistent in their ability to lose games this way. They hit the snot out of the ball the first third of the game and then Charlie Samuels apparently starts to pack up the bats for the next game. The bullpen is ridiculously bad. With Wagner or without Wagner. Even when they do close out a game its nailbiting. Pedro gets a 7 run lead and then proceeds to give up 5 runs in less than 5 innings. I used to watch a game and if a team scored 7 runs the game was comfortably in hand. 7 runs was always my magic number. If a team scored 7 runs in my mind that game was over. Sure, occasionally the other team would come back but for the most part if they scored 7, that was it. It was an unscientific approach but it worked for me. This Mets team though cannot be trusted with a lead of any size. I don't understand why they hit so well early and then...don't. I don't understand why none of the major league pitchers in the bullpen is dependable on a regular basis. I'm not asking for lights-out no-doubters, just give me more good outings than bad. A graphic was shown last night during the game which gave the ERAs of the bullpen and it was unbelievable. I don't know how you solve the problem - all these guys have had major league success - why are they all sucking on this team as a unit? Chemistry? What the fuck do I know? But I do know that if you jettisoned the whole lot of them (which I'm neither suggesting nor endorsing) and replaced them with minor leaguers and FAs the Mets would not be any worse off (of course I do know that's not the case but you get my point). From last year to this I've been watching baseball the likes of which I've never seen on such a consistent basis. If I didn't have such a vested interest in this team I'd find it fascinating. Unfortunately the reality is that I find it gut-wrenching.

Kong76 Aug 27 2008 08:02 AM

Pedro's five earnies cost me on three of my five fantasy teams.

metirish Aug 27 2008 08:05 AM

SNY showed a nice neat box last night detailing the pens numbers since after the All-Star break , very ugly they were.

AG/DC Aug 27 2008 08:09 AM

soupcan wrote: In all my years of watching baseball I've never seen a team so consistent in their ability to lose games this way. Well, there was the same squad the last five or six weeks last year. I'm not trying to bury the offense at all, but there comes a time when you've got to look to yourself and say, no, we can't count on those guys, so we've got to get this done ourselves. Relentlessly. It's like politics. You can blame the other party or you can fucking lead the way.

soupcan Aug 27 2008 08:11 AM

="AG/DC"] ="soupcan"]In all my years of watching baseball I've never seen a team so consistent in their ability to lose games this way. Well, there was the same squad the last five or six weeks last year. Yeah, exactly - over the last two years its been the same fucking thing.

batmagadanleadoff Aug 27 2008 08:29 AM

It was Willie Randoph's fault.

Centerfield Aug 27 2008 10:56 AM

Soupcan said it. I've never seen anything like it. Good teams, and the Mets are a good team, aren't supposed to lose like that. They're making me hate baseball.

Frayed Knot Aug 27 2008 11:05 AM

The order of blame for last night goes: 1) Pedro's 5-run 5th 2) the bat nap for the final 9 innings 3) the pen The other thing that sucks about losses like last night is that it prevents you from enjoying the misery of other teams - like the Yanx losing to the BoSox (in a series that could kill them) even though Beckett was scratched and with ARod going 0-5 w/2 Ks, 2 GiDPs, and 7 LOBs - or Florida giving up 2 in the 8th and 4 more in the 9th to lose 10-9 to Atlanta

86-Dreamer Aug 27 2008 12:06 PM

I voted for Schneider. I know it was a tough play, and plenty of others contibuted to the loss, but given his pathetic bat, shouldn't he make a good defensive play at least every once in a while? Other than durability, I have seen very little out of him this year. Not the plus defender / super game caller he was billed as.

metirish Aug 27 2008 12:21 PM

Schneider is swinging a great bat lately , one of the best on the team, that's probably not a good thing though. Regarding the play at the plate , I thought he could have had it but it was a tough chance.

AG/DC Aug 27 2008 12:31 PM

I have no idea wha I'm supposed to see in him as a game caller, but that missed catch was a Jason Phillips special.

Elster88 Aug 27 2008 07:45 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Aug 27 2008 07:48 PM

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Einstein the issue we have isn't "blame" but rather the dumb assessment that the offense "did its job" on a night where they left men on 3rd less than 2 out three times and went 9 scoreless innings. Nobody should dispute Pedro sucked and is deserving of blame. I think he should retire. But after his damage had been done and a 7 run lead was a 2 run lead you can no longer say the O "did its job" particularly when the "job" is to score more runs than the other team. No, Einstein, that's your strawman. I never said anything about the offense doing it's job, despite the fact that you put quotation marks around it. Here's what I said: "Pedro is to blame. 7 runs should be enough." A simple concept. Do you follow yet?

cooby Aug 27 2008 07:46 PM

Bullpen. They have made a habit of losing.

Elster88 Aug 27 2008 07:46 PM

metirish wrote: Who is Einstein supposed to be? Anyone who doesn't understand that 7 runs should be enough to win a baseball game.