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Delgado for MVP?

metsguyinmichigan Aug 28 2008 08:28 AM

Per Metsblog: "As Keith Hernandez mentioned during SNY’s broadcast last night, it’s time for Delgado to be mentioned in National League MVP conversation." His horrid slow start won't give him the kind of numbers, that voters look for, but you could make a case for Carlos getting the award using the literal description. It's been done, ala Kirk Gibson and Chipper. But, as we know, the Mets always get hosed in MVP voting.

sharpie Aug 28 2008 08:31 AM

Wright stands a much better chance than Delgado.

AG/DC Aug 28 2008 08:32 AM

It likely won't be a hosing if Delgado doesn't win. It'll be a detached rational choice.

metirish Aug 28 2008 08:37 AM

I think Wright is a legit candidate for MVP and IMO Reyes more so than Delgado.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 28 2008 08:40 AM

I'll gladly put my MVP support to whoever puts the Mets on his back and carries them through September.

MFS62 Aug 28 2008 08:53 AM

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I'll gladly put my MVP support to whoever puts the Mets on his back and carries them through September. I'm with you on this one. I've posted before about how I fell that the "carrying the team on his back" thing is important to me when considering MVP. Recent guys who I felt fit that bill, but lost it to players with better "counting stats" were Vlad (forget who won that year)and Hidecki Matsui (who lost to a late season stats surge by Gary Sheffield). Later

metirish Aug 28 2008 08:58 AM

I had to check there when you mentioned that Matsui got jobbed in your opinion for MVP and that Sheffield won it , Vald won in 2004 , Sheff finished second that year and never won it and Matsui was never close , his best season was 2005 and looking at the numbers it wasn't that great.

batmagadanleadoff Aug 28 2008 09:51 AM Re: Delgado for MVP? Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Aug 28 2008 11:18 AM

metsguyinmichigan wrote: Per Metsblog: "As Keith Hernandez mentioned during SNY’s broadcast last night, it’s time for Delgado to be mentioned in National League MVP conversation." And Oliver Perez is Sandy Koufax if you don't consider Ollie's bad outings. Sounds like Keith's doing coke again. Who is Fatso and Froot Loops? I would like to write to this poster or posters.

soupcan Aug 28 2008 09:57 AM Re: Delgado for MVP?

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Who is Fatso and Froot Loops? I would like to write to this poster or posters. Francesa and Russo ('Mike & the Mad Dog').

seawolf17 Aug 28 2008 09:58 AM

Fatso and Froot Loops was Mike & The Dog. If Delgado finishes in the 35 HR/115 RBI range, which is not out of the question, then he's certainly in the MVP discussion. Maybe not as a winner -- Wright and Reyes will siphon his votes -- but he'll get some low-end votes.

batmagadanleadoff Aug 28 2008 10:01 AM

seawolf17 wrote: Fatso and Froot Loops was Mike & The Dog. If Delgado finishes in the 35 HR/115 RBI range, which is not out of the question, then he's certainly in the MVP discussion. Maybe not as a winner -- Wright and Reyes will siphon his votes -- but he'll get some low-end votes. Yeah but anybody could get low end votes. That's not saying anything. Come to think of it, anybody could win the MVP the way the writers vote so I shouldn't count Delgado out.

metirish Aug 28 2008 10:03 AM

Lets not forget the 'east coast bias'. SC= 100

AG/DC Aug 28 2008 10:06 AM

I don't understand how a "literal description" for MVP puts Delgado ahead of David Wright or any of a number of other candidates. Or Hideki Matsui. Nor do I fully understand what carrying a team on one's back means. Keith is being his brilliant but intellectually lazy self, operating from the spotswriters fallacy of inflating things that that happen in front of one's eyes.

attgig Aug 28 2008 10:12 AM

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I'll gladly put my MVP support to whoever puts the Mets on his back and carries them through September. Let's see who wins the Schaffer POTM is for september...

Frayed Knot Aug 28 2008 11:06 AM

Everyone knows the only award that really means anything anyway is the year-end CPF ranking list.

TheOldMole Aug 28 2008 11:14 AM

]operating from the spotswriters fallacy of inflating things that that happen in front of one's eyes. Surely this is not entirely irrelevant.

AG/DC Aug 28 2008 11:28 AM

I think, if you're a judge, you have a responsiblitiy to consider the same data for every side of a case. Take this MVP vote for example (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_2001.shtml#NLmvp). Two voters selected Sammy Sosa over Barry Bonds. Each were members of the Chicago press, and each wrote columns claiming that you had to have been there day after day to see what Sammy Sosa meant to his team. Well, you have to had to have been there day after day to fully appreciate what any of those players meant to their teams, but that was where you lost those two writers. Hasn't Hanley Ramirez carried his team on his back (whatever that means) at times? Hasn't Chipper Jones?

metsguyinmichigan Aug 28 2008 11:57 AM

AG/DC wrote: I don't understand how a "literal description" for MVP puts Delgado ahead of David Wright or any of a number of other candidates. Or Hideki Matsui. Nor do I fully understand what carrying a team on one's back means. Keith is being his brilliant but intellectually lazy self, operating from the spotswriters fallacy of inflating things that that happen in front of one's eyes. I meant that there are two fields of opinion on the award: Those who think it goes to the player with the best offensive stats, and the other to a player who has an amazing late-season run that puts his team over the top. As we know, Strawberry had much better stats in 1988 than Gibson, yet Dirty Kirk got the award because he "carried the team on his back." Same with Giambi's already tainted award. And I'll throw in Chipper's since he seemed to get that because he swung a hot bat in the series that buried the Mets. What's the biggest difference in the Mets since the turnaround? Delgado. Not saying I agree with it, or Keith, but I can see why they're thinking that.

AG/DC Aug 28 2008 12:05 PM

What's the biggest reason the Mets turnaround matters at all? Wright. There's a huge hole in that logic. Al Leiter's start in game 163 became the final difference. It didn't make him MVP. And it shouldn't. Becasue a lot of other guys were the difference in forgotten single games earlier in the season --- some in many.

metsguyinmichigan Aug 28 2008 12:14 PM

AG/DC wrote: What's the biggest reason the Mets turnaround matters at all? Wright. There's a huge hole in that logic. Al Leiter's start in game 163 became the final difference. It didn't make him MVP. And it shouldn't. Becasue a lot of other guys were the difference in forgotten single games earlier in the season --- some in many. I'm not disagreeing with you. In fact, I think they should change the name of the award to make it clear what it is for. (The tried doing that with the Hank Aaron Award, and botched it.) That also removes pitchers from the debate.

batmagadanleadoff Aug 28 2008 12:22 PM

metsguyinmichigan wrote: I meant that there are two fields of opinion on the award: Those who think it goes to the player with the best offensive stats, and the other to a player who has an amazing late-season run that puts his team over the top. You could go insane trying to make sense of the writers' MVP balloting. Steve Garvey won the award in 1974 when without even considering pitchers, he wasn't even one of the 15 best hitters that season. He wasn't even the best Dodger in 1974 --Jimmy Wynn was and you could write a whole chapter on the gross lack of recognition accorded Wynn throughout his career in MVP voting. Same for Andre Dawson's MVP. In a perfectly logical world, Dawson and Garvey would've received zero votes in their MVP years because they weren't one of the 10 best, let alone MVP. Jose Reyes got a vote in 2005 even though he was the worst regular in the Majors that season until he got hot over the last three weeks and finished up slightly better than the worst player of 2005. The awards balloting is a mockery. Some votes are so absurd, so unreasonably unjustifiable so that the only logical conclusion to make is that the owners of those votes either do not apply the proper amount of respect to their unique privileges or are fundamentally lacking in baseball knowledge -- either way, there are many writers who simply do not deserve the privilege of participating in the awards voting. There are easily 10 players in the NL who are more worthy of this year's MVP than Delgado. Every game counts the same, notwithstanding the order of things. When baseball starts awarding two points for games won after the All Star Game, I might reconsider my opinion

Centerfield Aug 28 2008 12:31 PM

Delgado is not in the top 20 in OPS. He is not a good fielder, he has no speed. He is not, or at least should not be, a legitimate MVP candidate. Trying to decide what a player's contributions mean to a team is garbage. Even if you could figure it out, the deciding factor is not anything that player did, but what his teammates did. A guy who hits three home runs and drives in 5 does nothing different whether his team wins 5-4 or loses 11 to 5. The only difference is what his teammates have done...so it makes little sense to base an individual award on the performance of your teammates. The MVP, Cy Young and Rookie of the Year awards should look at individual performance and nothing more. Sports writers resist this because they don't want their votes to be decided simply by looking at park-adjusted OPS...which is almost all that needs to be done. They want to make it seem more complex, something only a knowledgeable sports fan would understand, so they can feel good about the importance of their job. But all it does is fuck things up and they end up making idiotic choices that even the casual fan can spot as foolish.

metsguyinmichigan Aug 28 2008 12:35 PM

"Sports writers resist this because they don't want their votes to be decided simply by looking at park-adjusted OPS...which is almost all that needs to be done." Just for kicks, using this stat, how did Wright compare to Rollins last year?

AG/DC Aug 28 2008 12:50 PM

It's almost embarrassing.

HahnSolo Aug 28 2008 01:11 PM

How many voters know, or care, what park adjusted OPS actually is?

Benjamin Grimm Aug 28 2008 01:14 PM

A decided minority, I'd guess. I have a vague sense of what it is, but if you give me somebody's number I wouldn't have much of an idea of whether it was good, bad, or somewhere in between.

Vince Coleman Firecracker Aug 29 2008 06:14 AM

On his own team, Delgado is 6th in EqA, 5th in VORP, 7th in OBP, 2nd in SLG, 4th in WARP3, 4th in Win Shares, and 5th in OPS+. I think there may be better MVP choices out there. At least when Morneau won that disgraceful selection a few years back, he was one of his team's top 3 players.

duan Aug 29 2008 12:02 PM

can we not just be grateful that he's back hitting the ball well and leave it there. I know I am.

seawolf17 Aug 29 2008 12:21 PM

duan wrote: can we not just be grateful that he's back hitting the ball well and leave it there. I know I am. Fuckin' Europeans... always the voice of reason.

G-Fafif Aug 29 2008 12:46 PM

If Delgado is still being talked up as an MVP candidate four weeks from now, we'll know it's been a very good month for the Mets.

metirish Aug 29 2008 12:46 PM

seawolf17 wrote: ="duan"]can we not just be grateful that he's back hitting the ball well and leave it there. I know I am. Fuckin' Europeans... always the voice of reason. Duan is Irish not European .

seawolf17 Aug 29 2008 01:32 PM

Which, unless it floated away, is still in Europe.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 29 2008 01:35 PM

I think I heard that it floated away.

seawolf17 Aug 29 2008 02:04 PM

Well, then, there you go. That should make their snake problem go away too, then.

duan Aug 29 2008 02:15 PM

myself and Irish can agree to disagree on this one, I'm european all right!