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Billy's elbow ... and surgery!!

Frayed Knot Sep 07 2008 08:20 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 08 2008 12:15 PM

What Morgan, Miller & Gammons were talking about during the game is also what Minaya was having a mini-Q & A w/reporters before the game. I only caught a piece of it on the radio. Basically he felt pain again during his simulated inning between games and will see the docs tomorrow. From Rubin's blog: All-Star closer Billy Wagner just cut short a simulated game after about a dozen pitches because of what GM Omar Minaya called “discomfort” in his left elbow. Wagner ... will consult with team doctors once again Monday in Manhattan.

metirish Sep 07 2008 08:30 PM

obviously not a good thing , I expect him to be out for the season.

Rockin' Doc Sep 07 2008 08:43 PM

Gammons relayed that the pain following the 13th pitch of the simulated game brought tears to Wagner's eyes. Doesn't sound good at all.

holychicken Sep 07 2008 09:21 PM

I was hopeful we would see him again this season, but after hearing that he cried, I am convinced he is done for the season.

Centerfield Sep 08 2008 08:22 AM

It seemed strange that we didn't hear about any follow up MRI before his rehab throwing. Hopefully they'll get it checked out and get him in good shape for next year.

AG/DC Sep 08 2008 08:27 AM

It's a game changer. We thought we had a sackup job ahead of us when the starters went down at the end of 2006. This is seriously interesting. This bullpen is not only terrifying --- we're going to need every last one of them. And Manuel won't likely have the luxury of throwing them out there for one out appearances come the post season. Ayala is givng us some of the most hard-hit saves in Metland in a long time.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Sep 08 2008 08:32 AM

I don't wanna be a complete tardclown, but we've been playing .667 ball (22-11) since Wagner went down. I like how it seems as if everyone sacked up just a little bit and got a just little tougher, and we beat the bushes and plugged the hero void with Stokes and Ayala. Maine is prolly the bigger loss, but we're gonna get by there too, I hope.

soupcan Sep 08 2008 08:41 AM

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I don't wanna be a complete tardclown, but we've been playing .667 ball (22-11) since Wagner went down. I like how it seems as if everyone sacked up just a little bit and got a just little tougher, and we beat the bushes and plugged the hero void with Stokes and Ayala. Maine is prolly the bigger loss, but we're gonna get by there too, I hope. I agree. I realize that Wagner is a top-echelon guy but he was having a pretty up and down year. Ayala is 6 of 7, hard hit or not. Lunchables made a good point about him throwing strikes - 1 walk in 10 innings since he's been here. I'm not saying that he's better than Wagner but the bullpen as presently situated is working.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 08 2008 08:49 AM

Count me among those who don't see Wagner as irreplaceable. I think the Mets will be fine without him for the next 19 games, while they can still carry a 40-man bullpen. It's in October (if there is an October) that his absence will become more of a problem. Whichever pitcher takes his spot on the post-season roster will probably be a downgrade. (I'd speculate on the exact configuration of the post-season bullpen, but I'd prefer to wait until the magic number drops a bit more.) As for Maine, with the scattered off-days in the NLDS schedule, it's possible that the Mets can play five games with only three starters. (Santana, Pelfrey, and Perez.) If they advance to the NLCS and the World Series, then they'll probably have to use Pedro. It's noteworthy that, if Maine was healthy, then Pedro Martinez would be a decent bet to miss the post-season roster.

AG/DC Sep 08 2008 08:51 AM

I think Pedro would have a comfortable spot in the bullpen under such circumstances. I don't think anybody has argued that Wagner is irreplaceable.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 08 2008 08:52 AM

Also, I think they can get more out of Stokes than from Ayala, and maybe the next 19 games will demonstrate that. (Or not...) I also hope that Wagner's injury prods the Mets to look at possible replacements in the free agent market this off-season. (I'm thinking Brian Fuentes, but I suppose Francisco Rodriguez will be discussed too. The problem with him is he'll get a lot more money than he's worth.)

AG/DC Sep 08 2008 09:00 AM

Stokes used in a late-inning, one-out situation last night was interesting, wasn't it? No more bailouts for him, maybe.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 08 2008 09:04 AM

AG/DC wrote: I don't think anybody has argued that Wagner is irreplaceable. I'm not aware that anyone has. I'm just stating that he's not.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Sep 08 2008 09:35 AM

I've been reliving Brian Stokes' Mets career in the CPF, just to confirm whether this feeling I'd had that I knew all along he was a secretly great pickup was accurate or not. Well, not really. But someone owes him an apology... [url]http://cranepoolforum.qwknetllc.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=8520&highlight=stokes[/url] ]Let's not delude ourselves. Stokes SUCKS. He will NOT make the team. If he does, it will be an enormous mistake. [url]http://archives.cranepoolforum.net/7800/f1_t7869.shtml[/url] ]WHY?!?!?

Benjamin Grimm Sep 08 2008 09:37 AM

The firm confidence of the first quoted post had me pretty sure I knew who the author was. Clicking the links confirmed that I was right.

metirish Sep 08 2008 09:42 AM

Jeez that was a surprise to see who posted that.

Valadius Sep 08 2008 09:42 AM

Dude had a 7 ERA in Tampa. It's a miracle he's doing so well here.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 08 2008 09:43 AM

Oh. So I guess you were right after all!

metirish Sep 08 2008 10:07 AM

I'm going to guess that Ayala's ERA was high as a Nats player and now not so high.

duan Sep 08 2008 10:08 AM

="Benjamin Grimm"]Oh. So I guess you were right after all! I'm unimpressed THAT NOBODY picked up my hilarious gag about the image rights etc.

Valadius Sep 08 2008 10:08 AM

Yes, but Ayala has a good track record in seasons past. Stokes didn't have that.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 08 2008 11:13 AM

It's okay that you were wrong; we've all been wrong about many things in our lives. The lesson you should learn from this is to not be so absolute. If you had said, "I don't think Stokes will be helpful. He's been awful for Tampa Bay" nobody would be throwing it up in your face right now. But when you trash him so categorically ("it will be an enormous mistake") you open yourself to a bit of mockery. You often talk as if you know the future. You don't. None of us do. Soften your pronouncements a little bit and you'll come off as a more rational person.

Frayed Knot Sep 08 2008 11:38 AM

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I also hope that Wagner's injury prods the Mets to look at possible replacements in the free agent market this off-season. (I'm thinking Brian Fuentes, but I suppose Francisco Rodriguez will be discussed too. The problem with him is he'll get a lot more money than he's worth.) Y'see, here I was thinking exactly the opposite (as we both continue to get ahead of ourselves here). My thought was that succeeding withOUT Billy might break a team of the addiction to a big money **CLOSER** and plant an idea about structuring a bullpen in a more flexible way that's not dependent on one guy in the 9th inning role no matter how he was pitching at that moment. There were already rumblings among Met fans about F Rodriguez even before Wagner went down - at least some of which is 'GiGS' thinking based on his impending **SAVES** record. He's good (and certainly younger) but, of course, he's not going to solve the late-inning "agita problem" (he walks A LOT) and it also relies on the idea of a $25mil back of the pen at least for one year. Be fine with me if they stayed away from the FA closer market for a while.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 08 2008 11:40 AM

I like your wish better than mine, but while that would be my preference, I don't expect the Mets to take that approach. Maybe that's one reason I prefer Fuentes to Rodriguez. Fuentes seems like he might be more likely to fit into a committee bullpen with a recovering Wagner.

Frayed Knot Sep 08 2008 12:01 PM

Well, this question got a lot more in play because (acc to WFAN) they've apparently found a tear in Wagner's elbow (Medial Collateral Ligament) requiring surgery and [u:0f77b0147f]One Year[/u:0f77b0147f] of recovery time.

soupcan Sep 08 2008 12:10 PM

Out the rest of this year and next. Buh-bye Billy.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Sep 08 2008 12:12 PM

Holy ligametal illness.

seawolf17 Sep 08 2008 12:13 PM

Rough, dude. Pedro for closer in 2009!

Valadius Sep 08 2008 12:25 PM

Whoa. Okay, who's on the market this offseason?

Frayed Knot Sep 08 2008 12:32 PM

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I like your wish better than mine, but while that would be my preference, I don't expect the Mets to take that approach. Now that most of my previous post on the topic is out of date, I didn't expect them to follow it either. A 2nd good year out of Braden Looper might have at least temporarily cured them of the big ticket closer disease. But he tried pitching through injury that 2nd year to the point where most Met fans even forget that he was ever good and lump him in with Mel Rojas in discussions of worst pitchers ever to stain the uniform. ]Maybe that's one reason I prefer Fuentes to Rodriguez. Fuentes seems like he might be more likely to fit into a committee bullpen with a recovering Wagner. I don't think anyone in their FA year capable of closing is going to agree to a set-up role even if he were paid like a closer and promised the role a year or so down the road. The FA is calling the shots and there are just too many spots for him to wind up. Somewhat different story now of course.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Sep 08 2008 12:32 PM

Valadius wrote: Whoa. Okay, who's on the market this offseason? Brian Stokes. What do you think?

metirish Sep 08 2008 12:33 PM

That's tough for Wagner but I can't be worried right now about next year.

Valadius Sep 08 2008 12:35 PM

Oh shut up. Personally, I'd love to see the Mets make a run at Joakim Soria. Kansas City's not going anywhere for a few years. Maybe they'll take a package of Nick Evans and Bobby Parnell? Or something of that nature?

John Cougar Lunchbucket Sep 08 2008 12:38 PM

F that. I've got Bobby Parnell auditioning death-metal entrance songs already.

metsguyinmichigan Sep 08 2008 12:42 PM

Is Ambroix coming back next season?

Vic Sage Sep 08 2008 12:46 PM

from FK's lips to Omar's ears. I love the fact that we're succeeding in Wagner's absence. And while i, too, hope the Mets learn the proper lesson from this experience, I'm confident they won't. Omar is old-school... ie., an idjit, yaknowwhatimean?

AG/DC Sep 08 2008 12:48 PM

In fairness to Val, he followed that post up with ]In my immediate reaction, I momentarily forgot about our minor league system. So...

attgig Sep 08 2008 12:50 PM

Ayala. full time closer role. he's been doing pretty well so far. if he can maintain through the rest of the season (and beyond?), he's our front runner.

Vic Sage Sep 08 2008 12:51 PM

what about Al Reyes. Is he healthy enough to be useful?

Benjamin Grimm Sep 08 2008 01:09 PM

My first guess at what a 2008 post-season pitching staff (should we be so fortunate) would look like: Santana Perez Pelfrey Martinez Heilman Schoeneweis Feliciano Sanchez Stokes Smith Ayala Figueroa Figueroa and Stokes can potentially be used as emergency starters. Figgy can also be the "long man" that Pat Mahomes and Darren Oliver were. Had Wagner been healthy, I think he would have supplanted Figueroa from the roster.

Centerfield Sep 08 2008 02:07 PM

Vic Sage wrote: what about Al Reyes. Is he healthy enough to be useful? Is he even eligible for the post-season? He was added after September 1, no?

Benjamin Grimm Sep 08 2008 02:13 PM

With Maine and Wagner on the DL, the Mets could choose anybody to replace them, as long as they were in the Mets organization by August 31.

Centerfield Sep 08 2008 02:26 PM

Oh good. Thanks. It is weird though, that after having bullpen guys rack up all these appearances, should the Mets make the post-season, they'd be turning to guys like Ayala, Stokes and Reyes.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 08 2008 02:28 PM

I'm thinking Figueroa is more likely than Reyes, since Jerry's been using Figgy and not Reyes.

OlerudOwned Sep 08 2008 02:42 PM

I want Bobby Parnell to be our K-Rod.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 08 2008 02:44 PM

I'd rather see him make it as a starter.

Frayed Knot Sep 08 2008 02:47 PM

Just a quick Francisco Rodriguez note (I'm sure we'll be reproducing this argument during the winter) but he's going to be ridiculously expensive on account of all the CY votes and even MVP votes he's going to get this season as a result of setting the single-season *SAVE!* record and being the titular closer on a team that's going to win 100 games (and would win about 98 if some generic closer were being used instead). But here's a 3-year total (2006-2008) for both him and Wagner IP Hits Runs ER BB K HR WHiP ERA F-Rodrig 197 148 57 52 92 258 13 1.22 2.38 Wagner 187.2 146 61 50 53 226 17 1.06 2.40 Plus those WHiP numbers for F-Rod have actually gotten worse in each of the last 3 years: 1.11, 1.25, 1.33 and then there's that whole violent motion thing.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 08 2008 02:50 PM

I agree. I don't want to see the Mets overpaying for a guy who set a not-very meaningful record for another team. I'm more interested in Brian Fuentes. He won't come cheap, but he'll be a hell of a lot cheaper than Rodriguez.

AG/DC Sep 08 2008 02:52 PM

Minaya stood in the face of a tornado when he didn't deal for a name-brand reliever at the deadline. Perhaps he will again. For now, the bidness at hand calls us.

OlerudOwned Sep 08 2008 02:53 PM

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I'd rather see him make it as a starter. I want Bobby Parnell to be our Wainwright.

AG/DC Sep 08 2008 03:00 PM

I want Rufus Wainwright to be our Louden.

Centerfield Sep 08 2008 04:41 PM

If we're talking about what we want, I want KRod as our closer with Fuentes as a lefty setup guy. I want to re-sign Oliver Perez as our fifth starter behind Santana, Sabathia, Pelfrey and Maine. I want Manny in left and Orlando Hudson at second. I want to find a better catcher (don't know where to find one myself but there are people paid lots of money to accomplish this).

AG/DC Sep 08 2008 05:24 PM

Damn. Stop that. Those guys are the enemy and should be viewed with, at best, suspicion. I'd actually prefer derision.

Rockin' Doc Sep 09 2008 08:57 PM

Wagner wants to come back after surgery. Maine may be interested in the closers role.

Centerfield Sep 09 2008 09:29 PM

That story is interesting. It reveals that the tear took place on Saturday, and that he was rehabbing even though they were aware that the forearm was increasing the stress on the ligament. If this is true, it's colossally irresponsible on behalf of the Mets. Wagner was under contract for next season. Now they need to fill the closer role. They better not repeat this mistake with Maine.

duan Sep 11 2008 06:55 AM

want a conspiracy theory? Mets, knowing that Wagner's either going to explode or be perpetually teetering decide to see if they can force the issue. If he gets through and is ok - wah hey - we got ourselves a primo reliever down the stretch and in the playoffs - he goes down, he's out for a season and we get to cash in the insurance we took out and can spend that on someone else in the off season. Course I've no idea if they've got the contract insured but ya want a conspiracy theory i've given you one.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 11 2008 07:03 AM

I'm not sure that there's insurance. The Daily News today quoted "Mets insiders" as saying that the Mets won't be going after a top reliever this offseason because they're already paying Wagner $10.5 million for 2009. While I don't agree with the conventional wisdom that you need a "top reliever" I also don't like any signs of purse-tightening from the Mets front office. I like that they've become a team that will do what it takes to win. I want them to keep their eye on the ball even after this (hopefully) championship season.

Frayed Knot Sep 11 2008 07:07 AM

There's also a difference between "purse-tightening" and saying that you don't want to be dedicating $25+ mil to the closer's spot for next year.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 11 2008 07:09 AM

Yeah, but the $10.5 million isn't dedicated to "the closer's spot" if it's going to a guy who's not going to pitch a single inning. They have to look at it as overhead and still do what they can to deploy the best possible team for 2009.

metirish Sep 11 2008 07:14 AM

I just don't see the Wilpon's or Minaya hatching a plan like that , I could see Wagner pushing the issue though for different reasons , wanting to get back quickly.

Frayed Knot Sep 11 2008 07:18 AM

Sure, but it (Wagner's money) is still a major expense which is going to affect how much you can spend elsewhere just as it would in any business. It also brings up the question of whether (the reported) $15mil for FRod is a good idea no matter what the budget says. In other news, Wagner underwent "successful" surgery yesterday. Did you ever hear of a case where the doctors come out and say; "Geez we really screwed that one up" ?

Benjamin Grimm Sep 11 2008 07:21 AM

I'm thinking more of Fuentes than Rodriguez. If that "leak" was just a heads up to the fans not to expect Rodriguez, then I have less of a problem with it.

soupcan Sep 11 2008 07:23 AM

="duan"]want a conspiracy theory? Mets, knowing that Wagner's either going to explode or be perpetually teetering decide to see if they can force the issue. If he gets through and is ok - wah hey - we got ourselves a primo reliever down the stretch and in the playoffs - he goes down, he's out for a season and we get to cash in the insurance we took out and can spend that on someone else in the off season. Course I've no idea if they've got the contract insured but ya want a conspiracy theory i've given you one. Today's New York Times... ]INSIDE PITCH ... The Mets’ insurance policy does not cover Billy Wagner’s 2009 salary, meaning they are responsible for all $10.5 million. That makes it extraordinarily unlikely that they will pursue a high-priced closer like Francisco Rodríguez of the Angels. Wagner had reconstructive elbow surgery Wednesday at the Hospital for Special Surgery in Manhattan.

metirish Sep 11 2008 07:26 AM

Ok so that's confirmed , regardless don't the Mets have a lot of money potentially coming of the books? Seems to me that it's a yearly gripe about the Mets tightening the purse strings only for them then to turn around and give out some hefty contracts.

AG/DC Sep 11 2008 07:50 AM

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I like that they've become a team that will do what it takes to win. Nothing personal, but I hate that phrase. On one hand, it puts me in mind of John Kennedy, Frank Sinatra, the Chicago machine, and the mafia. On the other hand, it puts me in mind of aggressive fools who ruin their teams by muscling up with cash and bluster, George Steinbrenner, Al Davis, Dan Snyder, and the early nineties Mets. They are in a position to grow a team that can contend for ten years or more.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 11 2008 07:55 AM

Well, yes. I didn't mean to sound like George Steinbrenner there. I look more to the Braves of the 1990's as a model. They would contend every year, they'd nurture and promote prospects, and they'd fill in with key veterans when they had a hole to fill.

soupcan Sep 11 2008 08:01 AM

metirish wrote: Ok so that's confirmed , regardless don't the Mets have a lot of money potentially coming of the books? I think 'money coming off the books' is a misconception. Yes, they won't be paying Pedro, but don't Reyes and Wright get significant raises? If they are able to trade Castillo you know they'll have eat a lot of that contract. Ollie's going to cost them big time, they still owe Randolph over $2 million. Where's the money coming off of?

metirish Sep 11 2008 08:06 AM

I must have been thinking about the MFY's , seriously I thought it was more than that.Plus if they keep Manuel he will get a raise , not feeling sorry for Fred and Jeff just yet though.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 11 2008 08:07 AM

I think earlier on we were thinking that Delgado's money would be freed up, but that's not looking too likely anymore. Pedro's salary is going away. I'm not sure they'll be paying Oliver Perez anything at all next year, but if they don't, they'll still have to pay whoever replaces him. Alou's salary is going away too. I think that this winter they're going to have to pay a reliever (unless they want to commit to Ayala, which seems a bit risky to me at this point) and a starter. Fans are going to want Rodriguez and Sabathia, of course, but there are probably other options who will cost less and still help the team.

duan Sep 11 2008 08:09 AM

="soupcan"] ="duan"]want a conspiracy theory? Mets, knowing that Wagner's either going to explode or be perpetually teetering decide to see if they can force the issue. If he gets through and is ok - wah hey - we got ourselves a primo reliever down the stretch and in the playoffs - he goes down, he's out for a season and we get to cash in the insurance we took out and can spend that on someone else in the off season. Course I've no idea if they've got the contract insured but ya want a conspiracy theory i've given you one. Today's New York Times... ]INSIDE PITCH ... The Mets’ insurance policy does not cover Billy Wagner’s 2009 salary, meaning they are responsible for all $10.5 million. That makes it extraordinarily unlikely that they will pursue a high-priced closer like Francisco Rodríguez of the Angels. Wagner had reconstructive elbow surgery Wednesday at the Hospital for Special Surgery in Manhattan. well, at least let me confirm that Billy Wagner was the man walking away from the Grassy Knoll.

AG/DC Sep 11 2008 08:13 AM

Orlando Hernandez comes off the books. We also have obligations to former players (I think Sosa and Mota) going away. Delgado is complicated: he gets 16 million if his option vests automatically, 12 million if the Mets pick it up, 4 million if they don't.

duan Sep 11 2008 09:17 AM

soupcan wrote: ="metirish"]Ok so that's confirmed , regardless don't the Mets have a lot of money potentially coming of the books? I think 'money coming off the books' is a misconception. Yes, they won't be paying Pedro, but don't Reyes and Wright get significant raises? If they are able to trade Castillo you know they'll have eat a lot of that contract. Ollie's going to cost them big time, they still owe Randolph over $2 million. Where's the money coming off of? David Wright 07:$1M, 08:$5M, 09:$7.5M, 10:$10M, 11:$14M, 12:$15M, 13:$16M club option ($1M buyout) Jose Reyes 07:$2.5M, 08:$4M, 09:$5.75M, 10:$9M, 11:$11M club option ($0.5M buyout) Omar Minaya's two best moves.

soupcan Sep 11 2008 09:19 AM

Okay - I'm wrong. Not the first time, not the last.

duan Sep 11 2008 01:09 PM

well in my and your books $1.75 million and $2.5 million are pretty decent raises!!!