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Top Buc Winners (Split from 2009 Draft Order)

metirish Oct 07 2008 04:41 PM

Thanks for that FK , apparently Pittsburgh have a decent front office now so hopefully things will get better for them. Don't know why but I like them .

AG/DC Oct 07 2008 05:29 PM

I do also. I know why. Classic uniforms. Ralph Kiner. An interesting town that spawned a few of my friends. Honus Wagner. Donn Clendenon. Frank Thomas. The Lumber Co. First team to field an all African-American/Afro-Latin lineup. Killed by self-destructive heart-over-head maneuvers like rewarding local All-Stars with long-term deals that hamstring them long-term. Bob Friend. The notion that they've historically been the batting version of the Mets, in that they can build a team Hall of Fame comprised 100% of batters. Go ahead. Name the top ten winningest pitchers for the Pirates. I dare you.

metirish Oct 07 2008 06:15 PM

That's really good Edgy, and I like them for some of those reasons too. One of the coolest tings I ever saw in my short baseball following life was the Wagner Card at a traveling HOF road show. I was in awe.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 07 2008 06:39 PM

When I was 8, my favorite non-Mets were Roberto Clemente and Willie Stargell. The Pirates also won the first World Series I ever watched, in 1971 vs. Baltimore.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 07 2008 08:46 PM

Hmmm. Great Pirate pitchers... uh... hmmm... top of head... John Candelaria Rick Rhoden Bert Blyleven Vic Willis John Smiley Grant Jackson John Tudor Doug Drabek Bob Walk Don Robinson Vern Law Alejando Pena Kent Tekulve

AG/DC Oct 07 2008 09:18 PM

Alejandro Peña? He played one year for the Bucs and won three games? ____________________ ____________________ ____________________ ____________________ ____________________ ____________________ [u:3bc0489d59]Vernon Law (JC Bucket)_[/u:3bc0489d59] ____________________ ____________________ ____________________

DocTee Oct 07 2008 10:36 PM

Elroy Face Harvey Haddix Jim Bibby

seawolf17 Oct 08 2008 06:08 AM

Rhoden wasn't right? I'm surprised. Steve Blass?

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 08 2008 06:12 AM

I wasn't specifically guessing winningest pitchers, just rattling off the pitchers I associate with the Pirates. Burleigh Grimes.

AG/DC Oct 08 2008 06:14 AM

No luck. Harvey Haddix is a good answer --- long associated with the team as a coach, but he didn't join them as a player until 33. See how hard this is. __________________________________ __________________________________ __________________________________ __________________________________ __________________________________ __________________________________ [u:47e323c42c]Vernon Law (1950-1967): 162 (JC Bucket)_[/u:47e323c42c] __________________________________ __________________________________ __________________________________

Fman99 Oct 08 2008 06:30 AM

="AG/DC"]I do also. I know why. Classic uniforms. Ralph Kiner. An interesting town that spawned a few of my friends. Honus Wagner. Donn Clendenon. Frank Thomas. The Lumber Co. First team to field an all African-American/Afro-Latin lineup. Killed by self-destructive heart-over-head maneuvers like rewarding local All-Stars with long-term deals that hamstring them long-term. Bob Friend. The notion that they've historically been the batting version of the Mets, in that they can build a team Hall of Fame comprised 100% of batters. Go ahead. Name the top ten winningest pitchers for the Pirates. I dare you. Don't forget the 1970's pillbox hats. Funky.

Fman99 Oct 08 2008 06:32 AM

Bob Friend's gotta be on that list -- he pitched almost his whole career in Pittsburgh. I can't for the life of me think of another one.

AG/DC Oct 08 2008 06:39 AM

By trading Bob to the lousy Yankees, the Pirates inadvertantly rewarded his 16 years of service by denying him a chance at 200 wins. The Yankees, moving him to the Mets, didn't help him either. __________________________________ __________________________________ __________________________________ [u:99f462dd71]Bob Friend (1951-1965): 191 (Fman 99)___[/u:99f462dd71] __________________________________ __________________________________ [u:99f462dd71]Vernon Law (1950-1967): 162 (JC Bucket)_[/u:99f462dd71] __________________________________ __________________________________ __________________________________

seawolf17 Oct 08 2008 06:54 AM

I bet the rest are old-timey Pirates and that's why we don't know them... guys like Harry "Three-Toed" Vaughan, Fred "Big Pussy" Delahanty, and Ducky "Dead Legs" Cronin.

metirish Oct 08 2008 07:02 AM

See guys today just don't have great nick names like those one. Take note Val.

AG/DC Oct 08 2008 07:32 AM

You're pretty dead on. Keep in mind that it's a franchise that goes back to the days when "Pittsburgh" was spelled "Pittsburg" and "Pirates" was spelled "Alleghenys." [u:3f3e48e452]_______________(1912-1924): 202_____[/u:3f3e48e452] [u:3f3e48e452]___________(1907-1926): 194_________[/u:3f3e48e452] [u:3f3e48e452]__________(1898-1910): 194__________[/u:3f3e48e452] [u:3f3e48e452]Bob Friend (1951-1965): 191 (Fman 99)[/u:3f3e48e452] [u:3f3e48e452]________ (1885-1889): 171____________[/u:3f3e48e452] [u:3f3e48e452]________________ (1900-1911): 168____[/u:3f3e48e452] [u:3f3e48e452]Vern Law (1950-1967): 162 (JC Bucket)[/u:3f3e48e452] [u:3f3e48e452]__________ (1924-1933): 143__________[/u:3f3e48e452] [u:3f3e48e452]__________ (1938-1949): 143__________[/u:3f3e48e452] [u:3f3e48e452]__________ (1885-1889, 1891-1892): 137[/u:3f3e48e452]

Benjamin Grimm Oct 08 2008 07:34 AM

Wow. I have a feeling that Zane Smith won't be one of the names on that list. I wonder if, once that chart is filled in, I'll even recognize most of the names.

Vince Coleman Firecracker Oct 08 2008 07:34 AM

Pud Galvin? Or do the Alleghenys not count?

Frayed Knot Oct 08 2008 07:46 AM

Looks like some of those guys might have pitched for the team when it was called Fort Duquesne

AG/DC Oct 08 2008 07:53 AM

VC Firecracker pulls out his Pud and invokes the holder of perhaps the most remarkable pitching season of all time. Pud falls short of his colleagues by spending 1890 in the Players League. [u:08ce4a117d]_______________(1912-1924): 202_____[/u:08ce4a117d] [u:08ce4a117d]___________(1907-1926): 194_________[/u:08ce4a117d] [u:08ce4a117d]__________(1898-1910): 194__________[/u:08ce4a117d] [u:08ce4a117d]Bob Friend (1951-1965): 191 (Fman 99)[/u:08ce4a117d] [u:08ce4a117d]________ (1885-1889): 171____________[/u:08ce4a117d] [u:08ce4a117d]________________ (1900-1911): 168____[/u:08ce4a117d] [u:08ce4a117d]Vern Law (1950-1967): 162 (JC Bucket)[/u:08ce4a117d] [u:08ce4a117d]__________ (1924-1933): 143__________[/u:08ce4a117d] [u:08ce4a117d]__________ (1938-1949): 143__________[/u:08ce4a117d] [u:08ce4a117d]Pud Galvin (1885-1889, 1891-1892): 137 (VC Firecracker)[/u:08ce4a117d]

batmagadanleadoff Oct 08 2008 08:54 AM

I knew it was gonna be tough to complete this list when Candelaria isn't on it. Bob Veale? Babe Adams? Speaking of great Pirate pitchers that pitched in our lifetimes, Rick Reuschel had one great unhittable year in 1985, the Year of Our Doc. And before the Year of Our Doc, Dock Ellis was their ace for a few years. Willie Stargell was the first Met opponent I truly feared --- but did not hate. I saw the 1971 eventual World Champ Pirates in the first Met game I ever went to, twice. It was a doubleheader.

AG/DC Oct 08 2008 09:09 AM

[u:291d733b7e]_______________(1912-1924): 202_____[/u:291d733b7e] [u:291d733b7e]Babe Adams_(1907-1926): 194______ (batmags)[/u:291d733b7e] [u:291d733b7e]__________(1898-1910): 194__________[/u:291d733b7e] [u:291d733b7e]Bob Friend (1951-1965): 191 (Fman 99)[/u:291d733b7e] [u:291d733b7e]________ (1885-1889): 171____________[/u:291d733b7e] [u:291d733b7e]________________ (1900-1911): 168____[/u:291d733b7e] [u:291d733b7e]Vern Law (1950-1967): 162 (JC Bucket)[/u:291d733b7e] [u:291d733b7e]__________ (1924-1933): 143__________[/u:291d733b7e] [u:291d733b7e]__________ (1938-1949): 143__________[/u:291d733b7e] [u:291d733b7e]Pud Galvin (1885-1889, 1891-1892): 137 (VC Firecracker)[/u:291d733b7e] Bob Veale was done (with the Bucs and pretty much with winning) at 34 and finished with 116 Pitwins.

batmagadanleadoff Oct 08 2008 09:21 AM

I didn't notice till just now that you were providing the years in which the pitchers in question pitched for Pittsburgh, as a hint. Otherwise I wouldn't have suggested Veale. It's interesting that it's been over 40 years since any of those top-10 pitchers actually pitched for the Pirates (Law in '67).

AG/DC Oct 08 2008 09:28 AM

I think Candeleria may be the best pitcher I ever saw who neither had a Hall of Fame career nor even a great year. (OE: 1977 was pretty great for him)

Benjamin Grimm Oct 08 2008 09:29 AM

It's also pretty hard to get into the Mets top ten, and they're a much younger franchise. Wins are harder to come by now since starters are pitching fewer innings. And players are less likely to stay with a single team long enough to run up big totals. I wonder if guys like John Maine and Mike Pelfrey will have much of a chance of becoming the fourth Mets pitcher to win 100 games. Santana might. He needs to average about 17 wins per year over the next five guaranteed years of his contract. 1. Tom Seaver 198 2. Dwight Gooden 157 3. Jerry Koosman 140 4. Ron Darling 99 5. Sid Fernandez 98 6. Al Leiter 95 7. Jon Matlack 82 8. David Cone 81 9. Bobby Jones 74 10. Steve Trachsel 66 (Tom Glavine almost made this list. He ended up 5 wins short of Steve Trachsel's total.)

AG/DC Oct 08 2008 09:31 AM

I remember the shock when Ed Lynch cracked the top ten.

Rockin' Doc Oct 08 2008 11:25 AM

The first names that came to my mind was Steve Blass. Unfortunately, his sudden and mysterious inability to throw the ball over the plate shortened his career and likely kept him from compiling enough wins to make the list. Candelaria was another name that came to mind, but he has alreaady been guessed and fell short of the mark. I'll take a guess with Doug Drabek and Rip Sewell.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 08 2008 11:43 AM

Of the missing guys, the most recent one last pitched for the Pirates in 1949.

AG/DC Oct 08 2008 11:46 AM

Drabek came along too late to fit any of those dates. He left the team before he turned 30, with 92 of his 155 career victories in the gold and blac. Not enough to qualify for this list, but enough maybe to make the Yankees regret trading him, Logan Easley and Brian Fisher for Rick Rhoden, Cecilio Guante, and Pat Clements. Good job coming up with Vanderbilt University's own Truett Banks "Rip" Sewell. [u:26e408d020]_______________(1912-1924): 202_____[/u:26e408d020] [u:26e408d020]Babe Adams_(1907-1926): 194______ (batmags)[/u:26e408d020] [u:26e408d020]__________(1898-1910): 194__________[/u:26e408d020] [u:26e408d020]Bob Friend (1951-1965): 191 (Fman 99)[/u:26e408d020] [u:26e408d020]________ (1885-1889): 171____________[/u:26e408d020] [u:26e408d020]________________ (1900-1911): 168____[/u:26e408d020] [u:26e408d020]Vern Law (1950-1967): 162 (JC Bucket)[/u:26e408d020] [u:26e408d020]__________ (1924-1933): 143__________[/u:26e408d020] [u:26e408d020]Rip Sewell (1938-1949): 143 (Rockin__ Doc)[/u:26e408d020] [u:26e408d020]Pud Galvin (1885-1889, 1891-1892):__ 137 (VC Firecracker)[/u:26e408d020]

Gwreck Oct 08 2008 12:00 PM

AG/DC wrote: I do also. I know why. Also the nicest ballpark in MLB.

AG/DC Oct 08 2008 12:13 PM

Guys I missed: Burleigh Grimes: won 48 games in three tours of duty in Pittsburgh. Steve Blass: had 103 wins from 1964 to 1974.

Willets Point Oct 08 2008 01:18 PM

AG/DC wrote: You're pretty dead on. Keep in mind that it's a franchise that goes back to the days when "Pittsburgh" was spelled "Pittsburg" and "Pirates" was spelled "Alleghenys." I can't remember where I read this but apparently "Pittsburgh" was the original spelling. A nation-wide effort to standardize spelling in the late 1800s dropped the "h" from many "burghs". Pittsburgh was one of the few cities to be able to retain their 'h'. Also, old-timers pronounced the name "Pittsburra" similar to Scotland's Edinburgh.

AG/DC Oct 08 2008 01:23 PM

They lost the h at least it for a while. Check it out:

AG/DC Oct 08 2008 01:25 PM

I realize that last one isn't quite conclusive. I was looking for a shot of Billy Sunday, but most of his cards show him playing for Chicago. Checkout his barehanded outfield technique, though:

Willets Point Oct 08 2008 01:31 PM

AG/DC wrote: They lost the h at least it for a while. Yeah, the standardizing thing did affect the "h" for awhile in print but apparently the people of Pittsburgh always spelled it with an "h" even if tobacco card makers did not. I think I read about this in one of Bill Bryson's books on language, but the wikipedia article also sums up the "h" controversy pretty well: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Pittsburgh[/url].

AG/DC Oct 08 2008 01:37 PM

Well, clearly the guys owners of the team adopted the h-less-ness also.

seawolf17 Oct 08 2008 02:02 PM

AG/DC wrote: Well, clearly the guys owners of the team adopted the h-less-ness also. True. They were thinking "Phirates" or "Pirathes" or "Piratesh," but neither of those really sounded or looked right.

Vince Coleman Firecracker Oct 08 2008 02:09 PM

I had to cheat and look up who's number 1. I would never have guessed it. His page on BR is unsponsored, btw. The winningest pitcher in Pirates history and no one could pony up 10 bucks to sponsor his page. They are family, indeed.

AG/DC Oct 08 2008 02:32 PM

Cool Pittsburgh pitching statitistic: Honus Wagner pitched 8.3 innings in his career, and the next run he allows will be his first.

seawolf17 Oct 08 2008 02:40 PM

AG/DC wrote: Cool Pittsburgh pitching statitistic: Honus Wagner pitched 8.3 innings in his career, and the next run he allows will be his first. NEW YORK (AP) -- Mets GM Omar Minaya announced the signing of reliever Honus Wagner to a minor-league contract with an invitation to spring training. "Seems like nobody's heard from him in a few years," Minaya said. "But this is a guy who has never given up a run, and his agent, Scott Boras, says he'll be in shape by February."

metirish Oct 08 2008 02:41 PM

A Pirates blog attempts to answer why they have been so bad. http://www.bucsdugout.com/2008/9/7/609478/pirates-tie-record-for-mos

Willets Point Oct 08 2008 02:51 PM

AG/DC wrote: Well, clearly the guys owners of the team adopted the h-less-ness also. How so? I see no evidence of this.

AG/DC Oct 08 2008 03:02 PM

It's right there in the article that Wagner has no H on his uniform. wikipedia.org wrote: Perhaps the most familiar reference to the H-less spelling is on the renowned T-206 baseball card of Pittsburgh Pirates legend Honus Wagner, printed in 1909. Its scarcity, even at the time, combined with Wagner's reputation as one of the greatest players in baseball history, made it the most valuable sports card of all time. The Pirates' uniforms of the time read "PITTSBURG" across the chest, although the portrait of Wagner makes it appear as if there could be a "H" on the end, cut off by the border of the picture. But the caption beneath it reads, "WAGNER, PITTSBURG".

Willets Point Oct 08 2008 05:05 PM

I think the H was just cut off.

AG/DC Oct 09 2008 08:07 AM

Though that article you link to suggests otherwise, I don't blame you, as evidence is mixed. Here's Howie Caminitz in 1909: but there may be some artistic license going on there. Here's Babe Adams, also allegedly from 1909. Better evidence would certainly be an undoctored photo. At any rate, the cards from the same series as the Wagner card all show P-Town terminateing in G on the player jerseys, so Wagner's wasn't cut off, unless the artist cut it off. Looking onward. In 1896, we definitely have an H. In 1897, it's still there. Notice how, in both years, there's mantouching going on to the right side of the photo: The tender hand-holding is what catches my eye. In 1901, they were captioning their photos and adorning their letterhead with the H, though the uniform top includes no name in this photo. As pennant-winners, Fred Clarke's squad seems to be comporting themselves less homoerotically in this shot. The hands are folded over or crossed onto their laps, as if, just before the photo, Clarke yelled, "I don't want to see any ballplayers touching each other --- even inadvertantly --- or you're off my team!" Homophobe. Anyhow, here's our first piece of undoctored H-less-ness. It's Hall-of Fame first baseman Jake Beckley. Though evidence up to this point suggests that any uniform H-dropping occurred after 1901, Beckley's time with the Alleghenys/Pirates started in 1888 and ended in 1896. This would suggest that they switched back and forth on the H more than once, and/or didn't keep their literature and jerseys consistent within a year. One other possiblitiy was that this photo is from 1890, Beckley's season with the Pittsburg Burghers in the now-you-see-it-now-you-don't Players League. It's certainly conceivable that the Alleghenys spelled it one way and the Burghers the other. You can add in the idea that the Burghers wanted to add crediblitity to their new league by spelling the new official way. But I don't think it holds up. For one, baseball-reference.com lists 1990's National League entry as the "Pittsburg Alleghenys" and 1990's Players Leauge entry as the "Pittsburgh Burghers," and if they draw that distinciton, I've got to believe they have their reasons, suggesting that that's how the teams described themselves. Adn why would the Burghers drop the H from Pittsburgh and not from Burghers? If anything, it looks like the Burghers chose the spelling of their city and their nickname not to suck up to the new thinking, but to throw a bone to the old school. In other words, I think Beckley is an H-less Pirate, though we have H-bearers before and after him, and illlustrator retouched H-less guys again in 1909 following. Here's an H-less montage of postcards from 1908. It adds nothing new to the argument except the interesting note that the Pirates had a player named "Swagina," and they promoted him: But 1902-1903 has an H in the caption: Baseball-reference has them described as the Pittsburg Alleghenys through 1990, then adding the H in 1991, the same year they became the Pirates. They never list them without an H again, but those 1909 cards say otherwise. Maybe they were throwback uniforms. My conclusion is that they went H-less up until 1890, returned to the H, but still had to deal with third-party folks sticking with the H-less ending, including perhaps card-manufacturers eliminateing the H as they illustrated and colored over posed photos. _________________________ Side note: A cool thing I found while looking for old Pirates was a turn-of-the-century poster forecasting the introduction of the Segway a century early:

soupcan Oct 09 2008 09:33 AM

What's that - a cow catcher on the front of that thing?

Vince Coleman Firecracker Oct 09 2008 10:42 AM

="soupcan"]What's that - a cow catcher on the front of that thing? So, not only did that battery-operated box with three inch wheels have to carry adults around uneven cobblestone streets while dealing with wind resistance from foppish hats and tails, it also had to push cattle out of the way?

soupcan Oct 09 2008 11:06 AM

What kind of 'new century' is that where livestock are roaming urban streets?

AG/DC Oct 09 2008 12:21 PM

[u:3419a71c6f]_______________(1912-1924): 202_____[/u:3419a71c6f] [u:3419a71c6f]Babe Adams_(1907-1926): 194______ (batmags)[/u:3419a71c6f] [u:3419a71c6f]__________(1898-1910): 194__________[/u:3419a71c6f] [u:3419a71c6f]Bob Friend (1951-1965): 191 (Fman 99)[/u:3419a71c6f] [u:3419a71c6f]________ (1885-1889): 171____________[/u:3419a71c6f] [u:3419a71c6f]________________ (1900-1911): 168____[/u:3419a71c6f] [u:3419a71c6f]Vern Law (1950-1967): 162 (JC Bucket)[/u:3419a71c6f] [u:3419a71c6f]__________ (1924-1933): 143__________[/u:3419a71c6f] [u:3419a71c6f]Rip Sewell (1938-1949): 143 (Rockin__ Doc)[/u:3419a71c6f] [u:3419a71c6f]Pud Galvin (1885-1889, 1891-1892):__ 137 (VC Firecracker)[/u:3419a71c6f] < Number one guy was a good-looking lefthander from Bearsville, West Virginia. He won 20 four times in five years in the twenties, but never pitched as well after leaving the Bucs. He was the first National League left-hander to win 200 games. He was also a good hitter and would occasionally bat eighth. < Number three (tied for second, actually) spent his entire career with Pittsburgh. His most similar pitcher at bb-r.com is actually his teammate at number six, and is second most similar is another teammate, Jesse Tannehill. He was nicknamed "The Goshen Schoolmaster," and he would eventually return to Goshen and die there. < Number five only pitched in seven seasons, but five with Pittsburgh. Nonetheless he makes this list in part by winning as many as 41 games in one seaason. I like that, as pitcher use has changed, the all time win leaders table is as filled with latter day guys as it is with 19th century myths --- as if a pitcher only has X innings in his arm whether you pitch him every inning two days in three and use him up by the time he's 29, or pitch him every fifth day for seven innings and he makes it to 43. Like many Bucs, he defected to the Players League in 1890, but he never appeared after that. Nickname: Cannonball. < Nuber six is most similar to number three as well. He was considered the best control pitcher of his time. He had a common nickname of the time which was given to the most quiet-living type on each team. He was once quoted as saying "Babe Ruth was the biggest drawback to smart baseball the game has ever known." < Number eight (tied with Sewell) was a Pirate lifer who started late, pitching with them from age 31 to 40. He had a reputation as a heavy drinker. Bill James compares him to the Hernandez brothers (Orlando and Livan) for his capacity to change arm angles and speeds to get batters out. He also allowed very few hits despite low strikout rates, as a postumous flip off to Voros McCracken.