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Kazmir Angst (split from ALCS IST)

Rockin' Doc Oct 15 2008 05:36 PM

SJR - "Rays flip-flop Shields and Kazmir. Kazmir will now start Game 5 vs. Dice-K. Heh, wonder how many Met fans out there are hoping he get lit up the way Lester did Monday night." Not me. I hope he rediscovers his slider and pitches a complete game, one hit shut out against the Phillies.

soupcan Oct 15 2008 06:54 PM

Yeah, I'm kinda done with my Kazmir envy. Long ago and far away. I'm cool.

SteveJRogers Oct 15 2008 07:19 PM

I don't know, one more win and he goes farther than the Mets have since the trade. To say nothing about the Met and Post-Met career of Victor Zambrano.

Frayed Knot Oct 15 2008 09:10 PM

Right, because saying you're over the trade and trying to justify it are the same thing.

metirish Oct 16 2008 07:29 AM

I would like to know once and for all how many members here still pine for Kazmir when they see him now for Tampa , are you as has been suggested hoping he gets lit up as some sort of revenge or something silly like that. I suspect a poll here would show that most of us have moved on and can watch the kid pitch without cursing him or the Mets.

Rockin' Doc Oct 16 2008 07:46 AM

I enjoyed watching Nolan Ryan pitch throughout his long and illustrious career and I enjoyed seeing Seaver pitch during his time away from Shea. I also felt no need to pull against Ken Singleton and Amos Otis either (unless they were facing the Mets). It wasn't their fault that the Mets made bad trades that involved them. Would I like to be able to have reversed each of those trades? Certainly, but I never harbored a desire to see them flop once the trades were made. I hope Kazmir has a very successful career. I wish he was still a Met, because the team sure could have used him the past few years. I think it's pretty childish to hope he pitches poorly now, simply because the Mets made a bad trade that involved him.

Frayed Knot Oct 16 2008 08:04 AM

]I suspect a poll here would show that most of us have moved on and can watch the kid pitch without cursing him or the Mets. But Rogers says we can't so it's case closed.

Iubitul Oct 16 2008 09:04 AM

I didn't have a problem trading him - I still think he will have an injury-shortened career. My problem is that we didn't get more for him when it was obvious that the Mets could have had a bidding war if other teams knew he was available in a trade.

soupcan Oct 17 2008 07:46 AM

="metirish"] ] I watched the whole thing. I couldn't , it was all I could take to watch six innings of Kazmir . An overwhelming sense of loss overtook me watching him dominate the Red Sox. You have to get past that.

Centerfield Oct 17 2008 07:47 AM

="metirish"]I would like to know once and for all how many members here still pine for Kazmir when they see him now for Tampa , are you as has been suggested hoping he gets lit up as some sort of revenge or something silly like that. I suspect a poll here would show that most of us have moved on and can watch the kid pitch without cursing him or the Mets. I'm not over it. Not even close. Lots of trades can look bad in retrospect, but with nearly every single one, you can justify it based upon the information available at the time. People give Steve Phillips shit about Jason Bay, but no one could have known at the time. You can argue whether you should trade outfield prospects for middle relievers, but there was no outcry when the trade was announced. The Kazmir trade was different. The trade was roundly criticized the minute it happened. For the life of me I cannot think of any occasion where a team undervalued a prospect to that extent. It was utterly and colossally stupid. It has to be one of the dumbest trades ever.

AG/DC Oct 17 2008 08:05 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 17 2008 08:28 AM

We should continue to endeavor to understand what the Mets were thinking with the Kazmir deal, but not with the notion that we'll someday learn to agree with it. That'll just lead to frustration and re-opening. You want to grow from it, then accept that the Mets have changed their thinking organziationally since then, and work to push them to make sure they changed it for the better and continue to do so. "You either leave your future and your past behind" --- Ringo Starr

Benjamin Grimm Oct 17 2008 08:10 AM

So what were they thinking? I guess they thought that Kazmir was overvalued as a prospect and not much of a sure thing, and that they'd get better quality results sooner from Zambrano. The other question about that deal (and the one for Benson) is why were the Mets loading up for a pennant race at that point in 2004 when they really weren't in it at all?

soupcan Oct 17 2008 08:12 AM

I think it also had to do with Petersen's belief that Kazmir was prone to injury and Zambrano had been a solid ML starting pitcher.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 17 2008 08:54 AM

="Benjamin Grimm"]So what were they thinking? I guess they thought that Kazmir was overvalued as a prospect and not much of a sure thing, and that they'd get better quality results sooner from Zambrano. The other question about that deal (and the one for Benson) is why were the Mets loading up for a pennant race at that point in 2004 when they really weren't in it at all? My 2004 theory is they needed to make $$ to buy out the Dolans and the Cablevision contract and they didn't get there just by failing to buy Vlad Guererro. Plus, Kaz Matsui wasn't turning out to be the revenue generator they'd hoped he'd be. So they figured a second-half attendance surge and playoff revenues were the way to go, and guaged upgrades to the starting pitching staff as the likeliest avenues to get there. I think there had to have been chaos and lack of accountability in the FO that year. Duquette wasn't fully trusted, so Fred relied on his "white-haired baseball men," but I don't know if anyone was ever looking at the big picture. Give the superscouts a mission of finding affordable pitchers with the ability to step immediately into the rotation, and they IDed Zambrano and Benson. I don't think anyone then had a close eye on the minors then as anything but trade fodder, if only because they'd barely begun the process of weeding out old Phillips people for new Duke/Omar (?) people. Kazmir I think must have come off a dick at some point and he was condisered to be a guy to move; Peterson, when asked, says he isn't in love with Kazmir's mechanics and thinks he's a ways away from contributing. He also thinks Zambrano could be adjusted for more success. All these things are happening independently, over a period of time, and before anyone sees the complete picture (including the field, where the Mets have lost like 7 in a row coming out of the ASB to fall out of reasonable range) the deals are done.

Frayed Knot Oct 17 2008 08:54 AM

soupcan wrote: I think it also had to do with Petersen's belief that Kazmir was prone to injury and Zambrano had been a solid ML starting pitcher. There is/was no evidence that Peterson ever said or even thought this. He did take him down to the Andrews clinic for that motion study thing but, other than that, by his own admission he had barely seen the guy pitch (Kaz was only briefly in the major league camp at that age). Peterson's only public statement about him was that it was his experience that HS-drafted pitchers like him needed some 5-600 innings before they were ready for ML work and Kaz had something like 200. As far as 'what were they thinking?' - they seem to have made a decision to "go for it" in early/mid July when they were only a game or two out of first and the still-years-away Kazmir couldn't be part of that. Then, as the deadline approached and they slipped to 5 or 6 GB, they never came off that view and were making all their decisions by committee (Wilpon's wise old men) as they wouldn't allow Duquette to operate w/o training wheels. It's like the old analogy about taking a while to turn around an ocean liner; without one guy overall guy in charge no one wanted to take the initiative and negate their earlier decision. The real crime, of course, was why Zambrano - and it seems that one of Wilpon's wise old sages liked him for years. Truly a study in bad organizational structure/communication.

Frayed Knot Oct 17 2008 08:59 AM

Oooh, two simultaneous lengthy (and mostly congruent) answers.

Fman99 Oct 17 2008 09:03 AM

="soupcan"] ="metirish"] ] I watched the whole thing. I couldn't , it was all I could take to watch six innings of Kazmir . An overwhelming sense of loss overtook me watching him dominate the Red Sox. You have to get past that. I think that every time I see the guy pitch. Every time. I am past it... but I still get wistful at the thought of this guy pitching and starring for another MLB team. Ironically, I was present at VZ's last ever Met appearance, where his elbow exploded in the 2nd inning against Atlanta. He ran off the mound so fast my wife and I thought maybe he had the shits.

metirish Oct 17 2008 09:04 AM

I remember Duquette saying something like he slept on the advice he got and woke up early (6am) and had a good feeling about the deal so he pulled the trigger.

smg58 Oct 17 2008 01:13 PM

As frustrated as I am with Minaya, his miscues pale compared to the deals made (and in Vlad's case, not made) in the Duquette era. But at least we didn't trade Joe Nathan, Francisco Liriano, and Boof Bonser for one year of A. J. Pierzynski. Or Chris Young and Adrian Gonzalez for Akinori Otsuka and Adam Eaton.

metirish Oct 17 2008 01:22 PM

2004 will go down as Duquette's annus horribilis.

soupcan Oct 17 2008 01:32 PM

metirish wrote: 2004 will go down as Duquette's annus horribilis. What do his hemmoroids have to do with anything?

Centerfield Oct 17 2008 01:32 PM

I think Kazmir has earned a split thread by now. Getting back to the game, Balfour is a terrible name for a pitcher.

Centerfield Oct 17 2008 01:54 PM

For the record, re-reading some of the earlier posts, I have nothing against Kazmir, nor do I wish failure upon him. My ire is directed at the Mets and the idiots who made that decision. I didn't like Victor Zambrano either, but I tried to disassociate him with the trade. It's not his fault he was traded for Kazmir. It was his fault that he couldn't throw strikes and looked like he was going to cry every time he took the mound. I've tried to move past the idiocy of the trade. I think I've tried everything. Far-fetched Justification: Maybe if the Mets had refused to move Kazmir, the Rays would have insisted on David Wright. Making light of it: At least we got Bartolome Fortunado who has a really really long name. Minimizing its effect: We have a pretty good left-handed ace anyway. Using perspective: Ed Hearn for David Cone. Deep breath, deep breath. But each time I find myself wanting to spit every time I think of the trade.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 17 2008 02:00 PM

I think if the Mets hadn't traded Kazmir for Zambrano they would have traded him for someone else. So if it gives you any comfort, you can look at this not as a difference between Kazmir and Zambrano, but as the difference between Zambrano and the 'someone else.' The trade doesn't bother me any more. It never really did, actually. I didn't like it when it was made. I hoped it would turn out good nevertheless, but it didn't. But I can't get worked up over such things. The frustrating thing is, as someone mentioned above, that everyone knew it was a bad deal at the time except the Mets execs who pulled the trigger. It's hard to think of many trades so outlandishly foolish. The only one I can think of off the top of my head that beats this one is Keith Hernandez for Neil Allen and Rick Ownbey.

Centerfield Oct 17 2008 02:20 PM

That is actually part of my ire. I think I've posted it here before, but my anger is not from trading Kazmir, the bulk of it comes from selling so low. To summarize: 1. The Timing of the Deal: I don't like trading young pitching prospects at the deadline. Deadline deals are for guys who want to upgrade to win now. If you've got a "win-now" type player, you're in a position to take advantage of the team that thinks they have a chance to take it all and will over-pay for the Raul Ibanezes of the world. If you deal a prospect at the deadline, you're probably selling low. Had the Mets held off until the winter, they could have shopped him around. If I remember correctly, both Hudson and Mulder moved that off-season. I have no doubt Kazmir could have brought either player back. 2. Having no idea what is value was: There were GM's who lamented the deal afterwards saying "I wish I knew Kazmir was available." It is grossly incompetent to move your best prospect without first calling everyone and seeing what they have to offer. Hell, the least they could have done was leak it to see what came back. They leaked everything else, why not do it with something that could help you. Like Ben Grimm said, almost everyone knew how dumb this was besides the guys in charge. It's incompetence at almost an incomprehensible level. 3. Win-Now: Only an idiot could have believed that the Mets had any realistic chance to make the playoffs, or go deep into them, in 2004. 3. Zambrano was never great: Top-flight pitching prospects should be moved for great pitchers. Duh. 4. HE WAS HURT: Are you fucking kidding me? You didn't check his elbow? He made three fucking starts that year. 6. Refusing to acknowledge their mistake: It was pretty clear after 2005 that he sucked. So when they built the team that was trying to win it all in 2006, you had to upgrade that position. Instead, they kept him, relied on him, hoped against hope until eventually his arm fell off. Maybe if we had addressed that spot in the rotation, we wouldn't have had to rely on 45 year old El Duque who went and got hurt during warmups before the playoffs 7. Even Bartolome Fortunado blew out his arm: Just to make things a complete wash.

metirish Oct 17 2008 02:38 PM

Six games out were the Mets if memory serves. I searched the old board for any threads form that trade but it's near impossible to narrow down a search over there.

AG/DC Oct 17 2008 02:53 PM

Centerfield wrote: 6. Refusing to acknowledge their mistake: It was pretty clear after 2005 that he sucked. So when they built the team that was trying to win it all in 2006, you had to upgrade that position. Instead, they kept him, relied on him, hoped against hope until eventually his arm fell off. Maybe if we had addressed that spot in the rotation, we wouldn't have had to rely on 45 year old El Duque who went and got hurt during warmups before the playoffs. I'll disagree here. Anyone would try and redeem this guy. This isn't the issue. Once he's in your posession, you proceed and try to make something of it. Yeah, I guess they might have steered clear of dealing him because the talent they got in return would have forced them to again confront their folly, but that's speculative for the sake of feeling bad. I mean, it's obvious they liked the guy and saw more in him than was apparent.

A Boy Named Seo Oct 17 2008 03:40 PM

Centerfield wrote: 2. Having no idea what is value was: There were GM's who lamented the deal afterwards saying "I wish I knew Kazmir was available." It is grossly incompetent to move your best prospect without first calling everyone and seeing what they have to offer. Hell, the least they could have done was leak it to see what came back. They leaked everything else, why not do it with something that could help you. Like Ben Grimm said, almost everyone knew how dumb this was besides the guys in charge. It's incompetence at almost an incomprehensible level. I don't remember much of anything anymore, but I do remember being at my bro's in NM and reading the rumors fly on the interwebs hours before the deadline hit. I do remember reading Kazmir's name thrown around, probably for Zambrano, but remember not at all taking it seriously, chalking up to WATP-type rumors, and being floored when it actually happened. Somebody leaked something.

Nymr83 Oct 17 2008 03:54 PM

AG/DC wrote: ="Centerfield"]6. Refusing to acknowledge their mistake: It was pretty clear after 2005 that he sucked. So when they built the team that was trying to win it all in 2006, you had to upgrade that position. Instead, they kept him, relied on him, hoped against hope until eventually his arm fell off. Maybe if we had addressed that spot in the rotation, we wouldn't have had to rely on 45 year old El Duque who went and got hurt during warmups before the playoffs. I'll disagree here. Anyone would try and redeem this guy. This isn't the issue. Once he's in your posession, you proceed and try to make something of it. Yeah, I guess they might have steered clear of dealing him because the talent they got in return would have forced them to again confront their folly, but that's speculative for the sake of feeling bad. I mean, it's obvious they liked the guy and saw more in him than was apparent. agreed. zambrano sucked, but not to the degree that you should discard him immediately while still under contract (like, say, kaz ishii)

metsguyinmichigan Oct 17 2008 10:04 PM

That trade was the best thing to happen to the Mets. It made them realize just how bad things were. That, I believe, forced the move of bringing in Omar, who cleared the clubhouse of the washed up lawyers -- Franco, Leiter -- and brought in Pedro, Beltran, Delgado et al. So, it reality, the trade was Kazmir for Pedro, Beltran, Delgado (and a lot of cash). I'd make that trade all day every day.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 18 2008 04:47 AM

I'm not so sure I'd leap to that conclusion.