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The Times Of London - Worst To best US Presidents

metirish
Oct 30 2008 12:01 PM

The Times loves lists and their panel of experts rated all US Presidents , plenty of people here know their Presidents so the views should be interesting.

]

[url=http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article5030539.ece]The Panel And How It Works[/url]

And so we begin. With the world's most important general election now only a week away, and the potential for a result with seismic political ramifications, The Times presents the biggest presidential debate of them all. Namely: who's the greatest?

Eight of our top international and political commentators sucked the ink from their pens as they anguished over the task at hand - to rank, in reverse order, all 42* presidents of the United States.

We asked our panel to rank the presidents in order of greatness. The Collins English Dictionary definition of great reads thus: relatively large in size or extent; relatively large in number; having many parts or members; of relatively long duration; of larger size or more importance than others of its kind; extreme or more than usual; of significant importance of consequence; of exceptional talents or achievements; remarkable; doing or exemplifying something on a large scale; arising from or possessing idealism in thought, action etc; heroic; illustrious or eminent; impressive or striking; active or enthusiastic; skilful or adroit; excellent, fantastic.

Phew . . . that's a tall order to meet, even if you win two terms in office. So when our experts came to consider the merits of the 42 men to have held office, they had to look at a multitude of achievements - some of them short-term, others which have changed the course of history.

Gerard Baker, US Editor, writes: "Trying to rank 42 of anything is difficult. Imagine if someone gave you 42 universally acclaimed music albums and then asked you to put them in order of quality.

"It’s especially tricky because, I would argue, like most people, the 42 American presidents fall into a well-established, Bell-curve or normal distribution on a chart – a handful of outstanding ones, a handful of duds, and a lot of so-sos.


"I couldn’t, in all honesty therefore, really say that number 13 on the list is that much better than number 30."

Tom Baldwin, our Washington Bureau chief, agrees: "This is subjective and clouded by our own historical perspective. I found it hard to place high up on the list slave owners and those who sanctoned the slaughter of Native Americans. Nor do I much like those who reduced America to civil war or appeased the South afterwards.

"Reagan gets lower marks than others might give him because his economic philosophy can be blamed for much of the world's troubles now. Clinton is higher than he might have been because he cleared federal deficits, partly through Congressional stalemate. Lyndon Johnson deserves more credit for civil rights than Kennedy."

Richard Beeston, The Times Foreign Editor, writes: "America has already selected many of its most impressive leaders as Mount Rushmore, the Washington monuments and the faces staring out of dollar bills reveal. The easiest part is choosing the top 10. The hardest is weighing up the qualities of men like John F Kennedy - glamorous, eloquent and popular but who was assassinated before he had the chance for history to judge his legacy fairly - against leaders from another age in America’s short but frenetic history."

As if to prove how huge a task this was, Daniel Finkelstein, the Times chief leader writer, pooled resources with his colleague Oliver Kamm while deliberating "to ensure that we knew enough about all the Presidents to deliver a judgment on each".

But did they get it right? Or is there even a right answer? Have your say as we count down the rankings today and for the rest of the week, beginning today with the bottom ten - numbers 42 to 33 - and continuing tomorrow, Thursday and Friday.

* One for the anoraks: Grover Cleveland is both the 22nd and 24th president, having won a return to office four years after losing the seal.

The panel

Chris Ayres, Los Angeles correspondent

Gerard Baker, US Editor

Tom Baldwin, Washington Bureau chief

Richard Beeston, foreign editor

Camilla Cavendish, columnist

Daniel Finkelstein, chief leader writer

Ben Macintyre, writer at large

Bronwen Maddox, chief foreign commentator








[url=http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article5029204.ece]The 10 worst presidents to have held office [/url]

[url=http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article5032040.ece]The Times US presidential rankings - numbers 32 to 22[/url]

[url=http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article5038047.ece]The Times US presidential rankings - numbers 21 to 11[/url]


The Top Ten Tomorrow

Willets Point
Oct 30 2008 12:05 PM

James K. Polk always rates surprisingly high in these rankings.

bmfc1
Oct 30 2008 12:14 PM

Thanks for posting this.

sharpie
Oct 30 2008 12:15 PM

Here are the 10 remaining:

Mt. Rushmore: Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt

20th Century Guys: Wilson, Franklin Roosevelt, Truman, Eisenhower, Reagan

Surprise: Polk



Grant listed way higher on their list than I had ever seen him listed.

Edgy DC
Oct 30 2008 12:20 PM

Not that I'm arguing, but it's kind of hard to claim historical perspective on GWB at this juncture. A book I read from the eighties left Reagan out.

metsguyinmichigan
Oct 30 2008 12:26 PM

Interesting. Those kinds of lists are always fun.

But they should really take out William Henry Harrison and Grafield, because their terms were so short that it's hard to assign any value, especially Harrison. It's not like he screwed anything up in the month he lay there sick.

You almost have to make it a ranking of 39, with those two on the side. Garfield's death -- shot by a psycho who wanted a job --actually gave birth to the civil service system, so there was more incidental value there.

And it's really too soon to place the current president anywhere, though I'm not saying it will look too much better in eight years. But Truman would have been buried in a poll like this in his final months.

I thought they were a little too kind to JFK, who get romanticized.

So who is left for the top 11? Both Roosevelts, Truman, Washington, Lincoln, Jefferson, Adams, Jackson, Wilson, Reagan..must be missing one

On edit: That's what I get for taking a long time to post. Questions answered.

DocTee
Oct 30 2008 12:30 PM

Maybe they should ask, oh I dunno, a political scientist or a historian?

TransMonk
Oct 30 2008 12:35 PM

DocTee wrote:
Maybe they should ask, oh I dunno, a political scientist or a historian?


WHAT!! That would be like using tangible stats for things like the HOF and MVP.

The press knows everything.

Edgy DC
Oct 30 2008 12:41 PM

I think we should rank the British monarchs going back to Cymbeline.

Frayed Knot
Oct 30 2008 12:42 PM

Statements like this are always fun:
"Reagan gets lower marks than others might give him because his economic philosophy can be blamed for much of the world's troubles now"

Vic Sage
Oct 30 2008 12:45 PM

Edgy DC wrote:
Not that I'm arguing, but it's kind of hard to claim historical perspective on GWB at this juncture. A book I read from the eighties left Reagan out.


Not that I'm arguing, but you made the opposite point when ranking "best movies".

Benjamin Grimm
Oct 30 2008 12:48 PM

Edgy DC wrote:
I think we should rank the British monarchs going back to Cymbeline.


I'm not familiar with Cymbeline. Does he come before or after Edward the Confessor? (Guessing before.)

Willets Point
Oct 30 2008 12:54 PM

Vic Sage wrote:
="Edgy DC"]Not that I'm arguing, but it's kind of hard to claim historical perspective on GWB at this juncture. A book I read from the eighties left Reagan out.


Not that I'm arguing, but you made the opposite point when ranking "best movies".


That was me.

With or without historical perspective, GW Bush's presidency sucks.

metsguyinmichigan
Oct 30 2008 12:55 PM

Camilla Cavendish, columnist

Bronwen Maddox, chief foreign commentator



Some funky names there, almost too good to be real.

What might Mr. Maddox's friends call him? Bronnie? Bron? Wen?

Benjamin Grimm
Oct 30 2008 12:55 PM

Apparently you didn't get the memo: history will vindicate him.

That means that our future society will be one that will revere idiots.

metsguyinmichigan
Oct 30 2008 01:03 PM

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
Apparently you didn't get the memo: history will vindicate him.

That means that our future society will be one that will revere idiots.


Truman was treated like a bumpkin clothes seller from the distant sticks with a goofball wife and even stranger daughter, and I bet he falls in somewhere between 5 and 10 in tomorrow's final list.

I'm not saying Bush will definitely be treated like Truman, just that it's too early.

Eisenhower being so high is a surprise to me. Seems he should be criticized for not doing enough to push for civil rights. Maybe a period of stability after the war years was just good enough. Curious what they say about him.

Edgy DC
Oct 30 2008 01:06 PM

Vic Sage wrote:
="Edgy DC"]Not that I'm arguing, but it's kind of hard to claim historical perspective on GWB at this juncture. A book I read from the eighties left Reagan out.


Not that I'm arguing, but you made the opposite point when ranking "best movies".


Fair enough. I think movies end with curtain though. This presidency hasn't even reached that far, and the policies still play themselves out long after a presidency is over.

Vic Sage
Oct 30 2008 01:08 PM

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
Apparently you didn't get the memo: history will vindicate him.

That means that our future society will be one that will revere idiots.


see the movie IDIOCRACY for just such a scenario.

Valadius
Oct 30 2008 01:14 PM

Grant was ranked WAY too high. I was pleasantly surprised by the rankings of both Adamses, though.

Vic Sage
Oct 30 2008 01:17 PM

Edgy DC wrote:
="Vic Sage"]
Edgy DC wrote:
Not that I'm arguing, but it's kind of hard to claim historical perspective on GWB at this juncture. A book I read from the eighties left Reagan out.


Not that I'm arguing, but you made the opposite point when ranking "best movies".


Fair enough. I think movies end with curtain though. This presidency hasn't even reached that far, and the policies still play themselves out long after a presidency is over.


i agree with you about the presidency, but i disagree with you that evaluating cultural artifacts (like movies) are any more divorced from a consideration of future impact than are presidential policies.

If you were to evaluate Blade Runner's "quality" (however one might define that term) the year after it bombed at the b.o. and received an, at best, mixed critical response, you might come to a very different conclusion than if one waited to see that, after its video release, it achieved cult status, and influenced the next generation of not only movie goers but movie makers.

I don't want to revisit this debate, but i just wanted to make the point that, IMO, the ramifications of a cultural artifact on the future of a culture cannot be known immediately, any more than the impact of a president's policies can be evaluated immediately.

metsguyinmichigan
Oct 30 2008 01:32 PM

"If you were to evaluate Blade Runner's "quality" (however one might define that term) the year after it bombed at the b.o. and received an, at best, mixed critical response, you might come to a very different conclusion than if one waited to see that, after its video release, it achieved cult status, and influenced the next generation of not only movie goers but movie makers. "

Cool point. I didn't think about that. There are a lot of movies, like "Christmas Story" and even "It's a Wonderful Life" that picked up steam after lackluster starts.

Then again, I'm still waiting for "Kiss Meets the Phantom of the Park" to finally get the love. :)

Edgy DC
Oct 30 2008 01:34 PM

I understand.

Nonetheless, the film review forum is there for people to decide what to see on Friday night. They need you to hammer in the best ranking you can ocme up with based on the perspective you currently have.

Lackng historical perspective, you can just be conservative and avoid extremes, but I find it more fun when people are bold.

Your opinion may grow over time --- and it should --- but I need to know NOW!!!!

Frayed Knot
Oct 30 2008 01:39 PM

]I thought they were a little too kind to JFK, who get romanticized


I usually see him middle of the pack in political/historian type polls so this one has him only somewhat higher than the norm.

It's the strict popular opinion polls where the romanticism kicks in consistantly putting him Top-5 and the ones which break it down by age group show that he's much more popular with those who weren't alive under his presidency than with those who were.

Edgy DC
Oct 30 2008 01:47 PM

I think some guys gain or lose more points race-related policies than in past polls.

metirish
Oct 30 2008 01:48 PM

Later I will post the Times Of Damascus list of worst and worser US Presidents.

metirish
Oct 30 2008 01:56 PM

]


42. James Buchanan

1857-61 (Democratic)

A poll of American historians recently selected Buchanan’s failure to prevent the American Civil War as the greatest single mistake made by any president and our panel agree that he was the worst ever President.

Despite being a northern man, Buchanan had strongly southern principles and he struggled to maintain the fragile peace as the southern states agitated for more freedom. He denied the legal right of states to secede from the Union but at the same time he insisted that the federal government was not legally able to prevent them.

By the time he left the White House his Democratic Party had split in two, seven slave states had rebelled and formed the Confederacy and the country was embroiled in the American Civil War.

“Failed to prevent the near disintegration of the nation.” Gerard Baker, US edito




Do you all agree with that?

Valadius
Oct 30 2008 02:12 PM

Yes. Buchanan was probably the worst president.

Frayed Knot
Oct 30 2008 02:17 PM

]He denied the legal right of states to secede from the Union but at the same time he insisted that the federal government was not legally able to prevent them.


As did Lincoln, except that he went on to use the power of the federal gov't to deny them that right.

Benjamin Grimm
Oct 30 2008 02:29 PM

]He denied the legal right of states to secede from the Union but at the same time he insisted that the federal government was not legally able to prevent them.


Yeah, that's pretty weak.

The only way to have stopped secession would have been war anyway. So you can't blame him for not preventing the Civil War, but for not starting it a little earlier.

He couldn't even have negotiated a way to prevent the secession, since it was prompted by Lincoln's election, and all he had was the power of a lame duck.

Nymr83
Oct 30 2008 03:28 PM

A few comments on a thread that got long quickly:
-As far as when you can (fairly) judge a president's place in history, I'd say when enough time has passed that his successes and failures can be judged on their own merits and not the party biases of those doing the judging.
-Buchanan wasn't a good president by any stretch of the imagination, but i think he's getting too bad a rap here, he couldn't have prevented the war (barring a capitulation to the south on slavery and other issues which would not have solely been in his power anyway)
-Reagan is just plain great.
-Nixon is too low on the list, I'd bet at least half the presidents have done something as bad as watergate, he just got caught, and i'm pretty happy with his policies outside of that
-JFK not only gets idolized, but for the wrong reasons. He wasn't half as liberal as those who now get up and consider him the sainted martyr of all things left-wing, he was more a Clinton-like figure to the right of the Democratic party (but he had more balls than Clinton, he faced down the soviets while Clinton shied away from terrorists in Africa)

]Eisenhower being so high is a surprise to me. Seems he should be criticized for not doing enough to push for civil rights.

Didn't he, as a general, push for the integration of the Armed Forces?
he signed the '57 civil rights act.
he supported Brown and in fact ordered the district of columbia schools to integrate.
he sent the national guard to force integration in little rock.

metsguyinmichigan
Oct 30 2008 08:40 PM

="Nymr83"]A few comments on a thread that got long quickly:
-As far as when you can (fairly) judge a president's place in history, I'd say when enough time has passed that his successes and failures can be judged on their own merits and not the party biases of those doing the judging.
-Buchanan wasn't a good president by any stretch of the imagination, but i think he's getting too bad a rap here, he couldn't have prevented the war (barring a capitulation to the south on slavery and other issues which would not have solely been in his power anyway)
-Reagan is just plain great.
-Nixon is too low on the list, I'd bet at least half the presidents have done something as bad as watergate, he just got caught, and i'm pretty happy with his policies outside of that
-JFK not only gets idolized, but for the wrong reasons. He wasn't half as liberal as those who now get up and consider him the sainted martyr of all things left-wing, he was more a Clinton-like figure to the right of the Democratic party (but he had more balls than Clinton, he faced down the soviets while Clinton shied away from terrorists in Africa)

]Eisenhower being so high is a surprise to me. Seems he should be criticized for not doing enough to push for civil rights.

Didn't he, as a general, push for the integration of the Armed Forces?
he signed the '57 civil rights act.
he supported Brown and in fact ordered the district of columbia schools to integrate.
he sent the national guard to force integration in little rock.


You are correct about Ike. I wasn't giving him enough credit.

Nixon, too. His story is a tragedy, because he really did do some good things until he allowed his paranoia to do him. He had no one to blame but himself. What a shame.

Vic Sage
Oct 31 2008 09:59 AM

Ike also mada a good call on that whole "military-industrial complex", even though he mentioned it on his way OUT, not on his way IN.

as for NIXON... yes, aside from undermining the constitution at home and waging a secret war in Cambodia abroad, he was a great guy.

and don't get me started on Reagan.

Vic Sage
Oct 31 2008 10:03 AM

and is it significant at all (to anyone other than me) that the answer to the question of life, the universe, and everything, is the same as the answer to the questions of "how many U.S. presidents so far" and "what is the Jackie Robinson statue in the Citifield rotunda going to be"?

sharpie
Oct 31 2008 10:23 AM

Here's the top 10

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article5048771.ece

I don't think Ike makes it to#6 on many of these lists. With Vic on Nixon -- as someone who lived through the Nixon years it seemed pretty clear that he left the country in worse shape than when he found it and began the take-no-prisoners endless-campaign pit-region-against-region style of Presidency we've been stuck with ever since.

Edgy DC
Oct 31 2008 10:31 AM

Ike, despite the national highway system and the rapid postwar economic expansion he either oversaw or just happened to coincide with, usually gets much iller regard by historians. His ascendency increases my suspicion that their panel puts issues of race on higher peg than other such polls.

Frayed Knot
Oct 31 2008 10:36 AM

It's always fun to be taken to task by the British on the topic of racial/ethnic insensitivity.

Vic Sage
Oct 31 2008 11:28 AM

if nothing else, i think they got the top 5 right.

Willets Point
Oct 31 2008 11:30 AM

Definitely got #1 right.

metsguyinmichigan
Oct 31 2008 11:37 AM

I'd have swapped the Roosevelts, but that's just me. TR is my hero. FDR's shortcomings tend to be overlooked.

Thought Wilson was a little high, Reagan a little low.

But a fun exercise, as these things often are.

Nymr83
Oct 31 2008 12:59 PM

FDR was terrible for us economically, his policies likely prolonged the depression. but he won THE war, and he saw the danger posed by Hitler while the rest of the country was in denial. He flaunted the constitution too, in fact he outright broke the law with lend-lease, but history likes winners.

Eisenhower may or may not have just been in the right place at the right time for the post-war economic boom (these things tend to be cyclical no matter who is in office) but he was THE force behind the interstate highway system being built at the time.

and yes metsguyinMI, Wilson is too high. Those who complain about the Bush Administration's views on civil liberties ought to take a look back at what went on under Wilson in the war years.

Edgy DC
Oct 31 2008 01:05 PM

I've gotten the idea that all administrations, good and bad, are as much an offense to the constitution as they can get away with. It's up to the other branches (particularly the judiciary, or course) to stand up to them, when they are.

Farmer Ted
Oct 31 2008 01:39 PM

Living in PA, I can't think of one thing named for/in honor of James Buchanan. Andrew Curtin, PA's Civil War Gov, has his named plastered in several places throughout the state.

Benjamin Grimm
Oct 31 2008 01:48 PM

The high school in Brooklyn where Gabe Kotter taught the Sweathogs was named after President Buchanan.

Edgy DC
Oct 31 2008 01:55 PM

I've got a statue of Buchanan (or "BVCHANAN," as it's designated) across the street from me. It's like the park of neglected statuary --- Buchanan (with the engraved text reading: "The incorruptible statesman whose walk was upon the mountain ranges of the law", a quote from a member of Buchanan's cabinet, Jeremiah S. Black), ...



Dante, ....



Joan of Arc (a gift from the ladies of France to the ladies of America, and long since having lost her sword and reins, but still the only statue of an equestrian female in the district), ...



and Serenity (now with her nose gone, and here clothed in snow, dedicated in memory of the obscure Lt. Commander William H. Scheutz, by fellow West Point classmate Charles Deering --- and don't ask why he has a Naval rank if he went to West Point) ...

Nymr83
Oct 31 2008 02:20 PM

]and Serenity (now with her nose gone, and here clothed in snow, dedicated in memory of the obscure Lt. Commander William H. Scheutz, by fellow West Point classmate Charles Deering --- and don't ask why he has a Naval rank if he went to West Point) ...


Scheutz has a statue, but is apparently too obscure for wikipedia where ANYTHING can have its own article. I couldn't find anything about him besides a quick blurb on a website about the park where the statue is.

Vic Sage
Nov 03 2008 11:30 AM
Edited 3 time(s), most recently on Nov 03 2008 02:08 PM

="Edgy DC"]I think we should rank the British monarchs going back to Cymbeline.


Lets just start with Kings & Queens of England since William the Conqueror (1066):

The Normans:
William I
William II
Henry I
Stephen
Matilde

The Plantagenets:
- Angvian line:
Henry II
Ricard I
John
Henry III
Edward I
Edward II
Edward III
Richard II

- Lancaster line:
Henry IV
Henry V
Henry VI

-York line:
Edward IV
Edward V
Richard III

Tudors:
Henry VII
Henry VIII
Edward VI
Lady Jane Grey
Mary I
Elizabeth I

Stuarts:
James I
Charles I
- [Lord Cromwell]
Charles II
James II
William III & Mary II
Anne

Hanovers:
George I
George II
George III
George IV
William IV
Victoria

Windsors:
Edward VII
George V
Edward VIII
George VI
Elizabeth II

for the completists, here are the Saxon kings of Briton from the pre-Norman period:

The Saxon kings:
Egbert 827-839
Ethelwulf 839-856
Ethelbald 856-860
Ethelbert 860-865
Ethelred I 865-871
Alfred the Great 871–899
Edward the Elder 899-924
Ælfweard 924
Athelstan 924-939
Edmund I 939–946
Edred 946–955
Edwy the Fair 955–959
Edgar the Peaceful 959–975
Edward the Martyr 975–978
Ethelred II the Redeless 978–1016
Edmund II Ironside 1016
Edward the Confessor 1042-1066

G-Fafif
Nov 03 2008 11:37 AM

Plus the Royals haven't won anything since 1985.

Willets Point
Nov 03 2008 12:08 PM

William & Mary #1!!!

HahnSolo
Nov 03 2008 01:12 PM

We could rank prime ministers, but that sometimes leads to problems for us Americans.

Willets Point
Nov 03 2008 01:23 PM

HahnSolo wrote:
We could rank prime ministers, but that sometimes leads to problems for us Americans.


Robert Peel was a bastard.

Vic Sage
Nov 03 2008 02:06 PM

Edward II was played by 1 actor in 2 different movies.
Name the actor and the movies.

Willets Point
Nov 03 2008 02:20 PM

]Edward II was played by 1 actor in 2 different movies.
Name the actor and the movies.


I don't know, but I do know that Peter O'Toole played Henry II in both Becket and The Lion in Winter

Vic Sage
Nov 04 2008 09:39 AM

Willets Point wrote:
]Edward II was played by 1 actor in 2 different movies.
Name the actor and the movies.


I don't know, but I do know that Peter O'Toole played Henry II in both Becket and The Lion in Winter


DOH!
Yes, i meant Henry II. And those are the correct answeres.

Willets Point
Nov 04 2008 09:42 AM

Vic Sage wrote:

DOH!
Yes, i meant Henry II. And those are the correct answeres.


Oh yay! I got the correct answer to the wrong question.

Being a Peter O'Toole fan pays off.

Vic Sage
Nov 04 2008 09:47 AM

]Being a Peter O'Toole fan pays off.


always.
well, other than CALIGULA.