CC Sabathia

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CC Sabathia

metirish
Oct 03 2008 09:03 AM

What to make of the large man , lasted only 3+ innings in game 2 against the Phillies. I had put that down to his super human effort of pitching on three days rest for several starts in a row. CC pitched 10 complete games this season , 253 innings pitched this season , the guys a horse .

The I read something today that I had never heard about before....

Baseball Prospectus Total Pitcher Abuse Points.

Rany Jazayerli came up with the concept.. this from he article I read (Klapisch)

] The formula, devised by Rany Jazayerli, the site’s co-founder, works like this: a starter gets one point for every pitch he throws in a game over 100 up to 110. Two points for every pitch between 111-120, three points for 121-130, four per pitch between 131-140 and five between 141-150. Sabathia placed well behind Tim Lincecum, but the point system didn’t take into account the lefty’s furious finish – he made his last three starts on three days’ rest, all under unrelenting pressure.

I looked at the BP site and can't find any numbers on this , is this information useful , does anyone know anything much about it. I'm thinking FK does. (Merged from CC Sabathia, 12/10/2008)

AG/DC
Oct 03 2008 09:06 AM

A system that gives points for the rest between appearances would not only be more informative, but perhaps be able to measure relievers and starters on the same scale. (Merged from CC Sabathia, 12/10/2008)

Frayed Knot
Oct 03 2008 10:41 AM

"What to make of the large man , lasted only 3+ innings in game 2 against the Phillies"

Mostly just a bad game, everyone has them. In this case it was probably made more likely not just from pitching on three days rest but on the cumulative effect of doing so several games in a row.

The PAP score is also an attempt to measure the cumulative effect of pitching late into games in numerous starts, although they're looking at it as a future injury indicator moreso than for single-game ineffectiveness. It's weakness is that it's a one-size-fits-all deal and what's minor "abuse" for one guy might be major for another while safe for a third.

Seaver recently talked about the fact that he had a pitch-count in his day even though it was never discussed openly at the time. But he knew what his was as did his pitching coach and he pitched with that end-line in mind if it was getting late in games. But he also added that his count wasn't necessarily the same as Koosman's, and Kooz's was different than Ryan's, etc. (Merged from CC Sabathia, 12/10/2008)

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 14 2008 06:22 AM

The Daily News is reporting today that the Mets are going to go for it with CC Sabathia, and that they'll be going toe-to-toe with the Yankees.

Yankees say, "Bring it on!"

CC says, "Ka-ching!"

metirish
Nov 14 2008 06:55 AM

I cling to the sliver of hope that CC will be swayed by his desire to hit , yes I am naive.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 14 2008 06:57 AM

Either this rumor is false, or the one about them sticking to the $143 million payroll is.

I can't see how the Mets could sign CC and keep to $143 million. Unless CC is the only salary they take on, and the Mets find low-salaried players to fill out the bullpen.

soupcan
Nov 14 2008 07:15 AM

Well, the Mets signing C.C. would be great but I just don't see it happening.

seawolf17
Nov 14 2008 07:32 AM

Let's offer him bonuses based on his hitting. The Yankees can't really give him that.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 14 2008 07:34 AM

The thought of a rotation of Santana, Sabathia, Maine, and Pelfrey makes me drool.

Throw Jessica Alba in there and I'll be drooling like a labrador retriever.

smg58
Nov 14 2008 07:40 AM

You might have to backload the deal, but I think it could be done. I've been worried that so many people are conceding C. C. to the Yankees that they'll be negotiating unopposed and get him for less than people think. And I have to say that the idea of having the two best pitchers in baseball on our team appeals to me.

Frayed Knot
Nov 14 2008 07:44 AM

="seawolf17"]Let's offer him bonuses based on his hitting.

I guess an extra clause in his contract would be known as a C.C. rider.

Thank you, I'll be here all week ... don't forget to tip your waitresses

Edgy DC
Nov 14 2008 07:54 AM

I'm more than happy for the Mets to be used to drive up his price with the Yankees.

Centerfield
Nov 14 2008 07:55 AM

Exactly. If it does nothing but that I'm still happy.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Nov 14 2008 07:59 AM

="The Daily Snooze":31c71du5]A Mets official ... wouldn't deny interest in Sabathia.[/quote:31c71du5]

That's it. That's the whole foundation of a double-truck package with all the predictable elements:

* Bill Madden digging up an unnamed Yankee higher-up saying "bring it on." ... Check

* A John Harper column arguing that a Met-Yankee bidding war is in itself what's worth the pursuit of Sabathia ... Check

* An argument being made that the Mets need to make a blig splash in order to "heal the wounds" of 2008. ... Check.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 14 2008 08:06 AM

Ken Davidoff in Newsday is writing as if Sabathia to the Yankees is inevitable.

MLB.com is reporting that the Brewers are still hopeful of keeping him.

The Boston Globe is mentioning the Dodgers, Angels, and Mariners, because of Sabathia's supposed preference for the West Coast.

We'll know soon enough whether or not the Mets are really going to be a player in this. If they are, you know they'll have Omar and Jeff and Tony and Jerry make their visit to CC's home and they'll do their A-level schmoozing.

If they don't do that, then this story is in fact a lot of fluff.

G-Fafif
Nov 14 2008 08:14 AM

="Frayed Knot":4qwf08s3]I guess an extra clause in his contract would be known as a C.C. rider.[/quote:4qwf08s3]

The Mets might not sign him, but this line makes the speculation worthwhile.

metsguyinmichigan
Nov 14 2008 10:00 AM

="Edgy DC":2cnbfipb]I'm more than happy for the Mets to be used to drive up his price with the Yankees.[/quote:2cnbfipb]

Bingo. Each winter,I'm convinced the Mets are linked with every free agent by the players' agents whether the Mets have interest or not just to drive up the price.

In that big SI story about the ARod Texas contract, it said that Boras kept leaking the Mets name out there long after Phillips said they weren't interested just to scare Hicks and bump up the money a little.

And while Sabathia has been money in the bank, I think he's a big health risk. Let the Yankees have him, and we'll see what he looks like in year four of that seven-year pact.

Centerfield
Nov 14 2008 10:37 AM

="Benjamin Grimm"]The thought of a rotation of Santana, Sabathia, Maine, and Pelfrey makes me drool. Throw Jessica Alba in there and I'll be drooling like a labrador retriever.

I have recently realized that part of the draw of Jessica is that she reminds me a lot of Phoebe Cates in Fast Times.

metirish
Nov 14 2008 07:05 PM

Reports have the yankees making a 6 year $140 million offer to CC. Same report has them extending offers to Burnett and Lowe too over the weekend.

bmfc1
Nov 14 2008 07:42 PM

The Mets are linked to almost every FA, whether they want to be or not, by agents. As MGIM said, the Mets are being used. If it means a fatter (pun intended) contract for Sabathia at the expense of the Yankees, fine with me. Bill Simmons, Red Sox fan, (in his Thursday mailbag) begged the MFYs to sign Sabathia.

metirish
Nov 15 2008 08:58 AM

] Source: Mets won't bid for Sabathia BY DAVID LENNON | david.lennon@newsday.com 10:00 PM EST, November 14, 2008 The Mets were content to watch Friday from their Citi Field offices as the Yankees made good on their promise of a shock-and-awe first offer to free agent CC Sabathia. With a starting point of six years and roughly $140 million, the Steinbrenners need not worry about any competition from Flushing on this one. A person familiar with the situation said Friday that the Mets will not be involved in the bidding war for Sabathia, whose preliminary offer already has broken the record set last February by Johan Santana's six-year, $137.5-million contract. It's not that the Mets don't like Sabathia. Who wouldn't? And his stated preference to pitch in the National League would seem to favor them. But the Mets do not have an operating budget of infinity for this offseason, and having one pitcher at the very top of the pay scale is enough for now. Plus, they have their spending cash targeted for other needs, specifically a closer.

Frayed Knot
Nov 15 2008 09:13 AM

Newsday's Ken Davidoff is on the radio RIGHT NOW saying the same thing.

He thinks some team(s) will at least come close to the reported Yanx offer and that the final price tag will likely go higher before things are all over.

Rockin' Doc
Nov 15 2008 10:48 AM

According to ESPN this morning, Hank Steinbrenner has apparently bellowed that in addition to the C.C. Sabathia offer, the Yankees intend to aggressively bid for the services of Dereck Lowe and A.J. Burnett. Following that, the Yankees plan to bail out the sagging Detroit auto industry.

Apparently Hank was an apt protege of his father and fully plans to try getting championships the Steinbrenner way.....by buying them.

Edgy DC
Nov 15 2008 11:03 AM

="Rockin' Doc":37xei94z]Following that, the Yankees plan to bail out the sagging Detroit auto industry.[/quote:37xei94z]

That's coming from the nicest guy on our forum.

I swear, it''s an unkind thought, but it's almost like finding out that Hank was an even bigger yukkus than his dad seemed almost like a gift wrapped up with my name on it.

soupcan
Dec 10 2008 06:24 AM

Did the Yankees sign C.C. or is Craig Carton being a douchebag again? (Merged from Sabathia (Split from AP Hot Stove), 12/10/2008)

Valadius
Dec 10 2008 06:28 AM

The Yankees signed Craig Carton. (Merged from Sabathia (Split from AP Hot Stove), 12/10/2008)

soupcan
Dec 10 2008 06:35 AM

Joel Sherman says it is so...

] CC SABATHIA PICKS YANKEES By JOEL SHERMAN December 10, 2008 -- LAS VEGAS – CC Sabathia is not going to play on the West Coast. He is not going to play in the National League. CC Sabathia is going to be a Yankee, The Post has learned exclusively. After three straight days of face-to-face meetings between GM Brian Cashman and Sabathia, the big lefty decided he wants to spend the next six years of his career as a Yankee. The decision came late last night after Cashman flew to see Sabathia at his home in San Francisco. By the time the meeting was concluded, Sabathia had informed the Yankees that he had made his decision to call New York his baseball home, the Post has learned. There are still minor hurdles to finalize, notably that Sabathia must pass a physical. But after so much belief that Sabathia was stalling because he wanted to avoid New York, he agreed to the largest pitching contract in major league history, at least $140 million. It means that the Yankees have lassoed the player they were building their offseason around: An ace in his prime. Sabathia is just 28, and last year between the Indians and Brewers he went 17-10 with a 2.70 ERA. The previous season he won the AL Cy Young. Now he is the first major new piece to be put into the new Yankee Stadium. Cashman had met with Sabathia on both Sunday and Monday in Vegas. He then slipped out of the Winter Meetings yesterday to fly to San Francisco to meet again with Sabathia and also this time Sabathia's wife, Amber. It was in this meeting that Sabathia fully expressed that he wanted to come East and play in the AL, that he wanted the responsibility that comes with being the big man for the biggest team. The Yankees had extended a six-year, $140 million bid to Sabathia nearly a month ago. As the weeks passed and Sabathia did not accept the deal, a feeling began to pervade that he was trying hard to avoid the Bronx. Instead, this might simply have been a patient game of poker, Sabathia simply taking his time to make sure no desirable West Coast team with significant money would emerge. That never happened. So now Sabathia will front a rotation that also will include Chien-Ming Wang and Joba Chamberlain. But Cashman does not want to stop there. The Yankee priority this winter has been pitching, pitching and pitching. And they are going for more. Cashman had met Monday night with A.J. Burnett's agent Darek Braunacker and expressed a willingness to exceed the four-year, $60 million bid by the Braves and that they would seriously consider going to a fifth year. "We never doubted their sincere efforts," Braunacker said. "I have maintained that if A.J. wants five years he will get five years." Cashman also met with Scott Boras and the Yanks appeared willing to go to the four-year, $60 million plus range for Derek Lowe. In addition, the Yanks have talked with agents for several other starters, including Andy Pettitte, Randy Wolf, Oliver Perez and Ben Sheets. The Yankees received medical records on the oft-injured Sheets and were studying them. One person in the loop described Cashman as really pushing in a much more forceful way to begin closing deals, with or without Sabathia. The Yanks knew the worse scenario would be to be completely shut out on the top-tier pitching buffet. That would be humiliating. That would be the entire sport essentially saying the Yankees have the money, but no one wants to take it as a first option any longer. However, Sabathia showed that the lure of the Yankees and their money is still powerful. Barring the unforeseen, Sabathia is going to be a Yankee. The Yanks scored the big prize for which they were hunting.
 (Merged from Sabathia (Split from AP Hot Stove), 12/10/2008)

Frayed Knot
Dec 10 2008 06:41 AM

Sherman apparently got the exclusive on this - but no one else is denying it so sounds like it's accurate.

And, once again, ESPN makes one of its guys (Tim Kurkjian this time) look silly by airing a report by him where he says that the Sabathia thing if still up in the air while a crawl underneath cites Sherman/NYPost saying it's a done deal. (Merged from Sabathia (Split from AP Hot Stove), 12/10/2008)

MFS62
Dec 10 2008 07:08 AM

But, did you ever notice that Tim Kurkjian looks silly all the time?

Maybe its the bad tv makeup.

Later (Merged from Sabathia (Split from AP Hot Stove), 12/10/2008)

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Dec 10 2008 07:28 AM

Eh. He's fat. (Merged from Sabathia (Split from AP Hot Stove), 12/10/2008)

dgwphotography
Dec 10 2008 07:39 AM

="Frayed Knot":1jgkkakp]And, once again, ESPN makes one of its guys (Tim Kurkjian this time) look silly by airing a report by him where he says that the Sabathia thing if still up in the air while a crawl underneath cites Sherman/NYPost saying it's a done deal.[/quote:1jgkkakp]

I thought I read an article somewhere saying that ESPN was working on changing its morning lineup, and working on providing live reports in the morning in order to prevent this. (Merged from Sabathia (Split from AP Hot Stove), 12/10/2008)

metirish
Dec 10 2008 07:43 AM

I think that's what ESPN 360 is , actual live on the air stuff. (Merged from Sabathia (Split from AP Hot Stove), 12/10/2008)

metirish
Dec 10 2008 07:50 AM

="John Cougar Lunchbucket":37q964hb]Eh. He's fat.[/quote:37q964hb]

I'd be worried about this fellas arm falling off , I wonder what weight he ill be by the end of the contract. (Merged from Sabathia (Split from AP Hot Stove), 12/10/2008)

Benjamin Grimm
Dec 10 2008 07:56 AM

I'm just waiting for Hank to call him a "Fat Toad." (Merged from Sabathia (Split from AP Hot Stove), 12/10/2008)

Vince Coleman Firecracker
Dec 10 2008 07:59 AM

If this deal is finalized, I think the Yanks just got a lot better in the short-term, but might be dealing with an albatross of a contract in a few years. CC is a big dude who has thrown a lot of innings as a young pitcher, and 23 million a year is a heavy millstone, even for the Steinbrennies, to carry if his production falls off. Last year, PECOTA gave him a 22% collapse rate and a 14% attrition rate. Those numbers will improve after last season is factored in, but they won't approach Santana's 15% collapse, 3% attrition rate.

Last year, the Yanks reportedly refused to seriously enter the Santana bidding because of a commitment to pitching prospects. Going outside of the organization to sign Sabathia, while not a complete surrender of that commitment, is an admission they don't have the same faith in their prospects they had last year. As a result of this, they now have committed more money to a pitcher that's about equivalent in talent, a little younger and a lot riskier.

I guess I'm really saying that I like Santana a lot more than Sabathia, and I'm soooo glad the Mets, rather than the MFYs, wound up with him. (Merged from Sabathia (Split from AP Hot Stove), 12/10/2008)

metsguyinmichigan
Dec 10 2008 08:00 AM

I'm waiting for the outrage over the cap turned to the side and the over-sized jersey untucked. It's not "the Yankee Way." (Merged from Sabathia (Split from AP Hot Stove), 12/10/2008)

DocTee
Dec 10 2008 08:07 AM

And once again, the MFYs steal the back pages from Omar, as Frankie gets but one day as headliner. Sigh. (Merged from Sabathia (Split from AP Hot Stove), 12/10/2008)

Edgy DC
Dec 10 2008 08:24 AM

The Yankees can have all the back pages they want. (Merged from Sabathia (Split from AP Hot Stove), 12/10/2008)

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Dec 10 2008 08:26 AM

Seems to me CC sabathia is way too fat to be stuffed into an AP thread. Give him his own! (Merged from Sabathia (Split from AP Hot Stove), 12/10/2008)

Benjamin Grimm
Dec 10 2008 08:34 AM

Merged three CC threads.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Dec 10 2008 08:45 AM

Now we're talking.

23 mills a year for 7 years. That's a lot of burgers.

Edgy DC
Dec 10 2008 08:50 AM

The back pages I expect to see:

C.C. TAKE-A- BATH-ON-YA FAT TOAD II $23 MILLION FOR THIS?! TRAINING TABLE DISASTER!! SORTORIALLY CHALLENGED YANKS FIRE EQUIP MANAGER AFTER INABILITY TO FIT SABATHIA INTO UNIFORM COSTS HIM START 

Frayed Knot
Dec 10 2008 09:15 AM

I lke the fact that the Yanx had to go top their own offer which was already some $40mil above the next highest offer. Now it's $60mil above.

Yanqui fans yesterday were pretty funny.
Egged on by Francesa, who was ready to throw in the towel on CC, the minions were in full 'Fuck Him' mode, deciding that if he really wanted to pitch for them he'd have already grabbed the offer.

And the reasoning was classic MFY:
- we're the Yanquis, we shouldn't be chasing him, he should be chasing us!!
- this proves that he's just another Randy Johnson, Kevin Brown, Ed Whitson, etc. who can't handle NYC
- anyone who doesn't prefer to live in NY is wrong

Edgy DC
Dec 10 2008 09:21 AM

Randy Johnson can't handle being a Yankee. He can only handle kicking their asses to the tune of 3-0, 1.04 and ending their championship run, perhaps forever.

Centerfield
Dec 10 2008 09:21 AM

I figured he'd go there all along, but now that he's signed, that rotation is going to be pretty sick. Sabathia, Wang, Joba, and either AJ Burnett or Derek Lowe (from what I hear, they're not nearly done).

It's a good thing they still have A-Rod, who doesn't have what it takes to win, or else they might be pretty dangerous next year.

Frayed Knot
Dec 10 2008 09:31 AM

="Iubitul"]I thought I read an article somewhere saying that ESPN was working on changing its morning lineup, and working on providing live reports in the morning in order to prevent this.

I think they go to a live SportsCenter at 9AM or something but their early morning telecast is still basically the same stuff they've been running since late night.

So when stuff happens at 3AM (KRod) or 4AM (CC) their reports are not wrong but sometimes in direct contradiction to the up-to-date crawl across the bottom of the screen and when the two sync-up it's pretty funny.

P.S. ESPN's usual tactic after that is to get one of their own guys to confirm the story and thereafter present it as; "as reported by ESPN" -- like they were the source all along.

Frayed Knot
Dec 10 2008 09:50 AM

Rumors of an opt-out partway through CC's deal?!?

Edgy DC
Dec 10 2008 10:02 AM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 10 2008 10:46 AM

Wow, the Yankees lose control if he stays healthy and there's still a market for him?

Suckers.

metsguyinmichigan
Dec 10 2008 10:15 AM

P.S. ESPN's usual tactic after that is to get one of their own guys to confirm the story and thereafter present it as; "as reported by ESPN" -- like they were the source all along.

This is standard operating procedure for the television types out here. People I've talked to for a story tell me that TV people will call after a story has been in print and say, "Is everything in the paper correct?" and that's the only question they ask. Then, they use all the details from the story on the air and drop in the "as we told you at noon" or "We have learned..." or some other weasel phrase. We usually end up throwing things at the newsroom television.

But back to Sabbathia. An over-worked West Coast guy with a weight problem does not seem like a good $23 mill a year investment for seven years.

Meanwhile, the Santana deal keeps looking better and better and better and better...

Centerfield
Dec 10 2008 10:38 AM

Sabathia won't exercise that opt-out clause if he truly wants to be a Yankee. And if he does, management won't take well to that. They will probably get really mad for at least three or four days before putting more money on the table.

metirish
Dec 10 2008 10:48 AM

It was only yesterday I was reading that in his heart he didn't want the yankees.

Benjamin Grimm
Dec 10 2008 11:02 AM

Well, his wallet seems to have been interested.

metirish
Dec 10 2008 11:09 AM

="Benjamin Grimm":3qswapjd]Well, his wallet seems to have been interested.[/quote:3qswapjd]

Well yeah of course , I never thought he was going anywhere but the Bronx.

Edgy DC
Dec 10 2008 11:18 AM

While I agree, I have to say that, while the Yankees have the classickest looking uniform, the Boston road grays look the best on fat guys.

smg58
Dec 10 2008 11:20 AM

="Vince Coleman Firecracker":26rmr4vx]Last year, the Yanks reportedly refused to seriously enter the Santana bidding because of a commitment to pitching prospects. Going outside of the organization to sign Sabathia, while not a complete surrender of that commitment, is an admission they don't have the same faith in their prospects they had last year. As a result of this, they now have committed more money to a pitcher that's about equivalent in talent, a little younger and a lot riskier. I guess I'm really saying that I like Santana a lot more than Sabathia, and I'm soooo glad the Mets, rather than the MFYs, wound up with him.[/quote:26rmr4vx]

Except that Sabathia was not the one who needed surgery immediately after last season. I don't think I'd have guaranteed CC a seventh year either, but don't assume Santana is a safer bet over the duration of their contracts.

Edgy DC
Dec 10 2008 11:25 AM

Hey, just because Sabathia didn't have any surgery done, doesn't mean he couldn't have used some.

Vince Coleman Firecracker
Dec 10 2008 11:26 AM

="smg58":2ksav5fb]Except that Sabathia was not the one who needed surgery immediately after last season. I don't think I'd have guaranteed CC a seventh year either, but don't assume Santana is a safer bet over the duration of their contracts.[/quote:2ksav5fb]

I absolutely assume Santana is a safer bet over the duration of their contracts, and I don't think I'm wrong in doing so. Does that mean he'll definitely out-perform Sabathia over their contracts respective durations? No, but if you had to pick which one will out-perform the other, which would you pick?

Gwreck
Dec 10 2008 11:41 AM

="Edgy DC":2vb3wfno]While I agree, I have to say that, while the Yankees have the classickest looking uniform[/quote:2vb3wfno]

Detroit home whites?

Edgy DC
Dec 10 2008 11:56 AM

They certainly can land some punches against the champ.

metirish
Dec 10 2008 11:57 AM

="Edgy DC":2bxdqcr5]Hey, just because Sabathia didn't have any surgery done, doesn't mean he couldn't have used some.[/quote:2bxdqcr5]

You thinking gastric surgery for weight loss?

Frayed Knot
Dec 10 2008 12:01 PM

Neither one (Santana or Sabathia) has had any significant injuries to date.
CC is a year yonger but also has more mileage on his arm (about 200 IPs) due to Johan's Rule 5 history which kept him on the back of the bench for a while.
CC signed thru 2015, Johan thru 2013 w/an option for 2014 -- meaning that if the option kicks in the contracts go through the same age.

So any speculation about longevity and injury comes down to usage
- Sabathia logging more innings more often
and if one wants to draw a conclusion about body type.

btw, that "In case I hate NY" opt-out clause for CC after 3 years/$69mil is apparently accurate

metsguyinmichigan
Dec 10 2008 02:52 PM

="Gwreck":d6umr4hw]
="Edgy DC":d6umr4hw]While I agree, I have to say that, while the Yankees have the classickest looking uniform[/quote:d6umr4hw] Detroit home whites?[/quote:d6umr4hw]

You're both kidding me, right?

Mets home pinstripes with the blue cap.

End of discussion, unless you want to point out that BOTH the aforementioned Yankee and Tigers uniforms, the logo on the cap is different than the one on the chest. In the Tigers' case, dramatically so!

dgwphotography
Dec 10 2008 04:28 PM

="metsguyinmichigan":1qa74opt]
="Gwreck":1qa74opt]
="Edgy DC":1qa74opt]While I agree, I have to say that, while the Yankees have the classickest looking uniform[/quote:1qa74opt] Detroit home whites?[/quote:1qa74opt] You're both kidding me, right? Mets home pinstripes with the blue cap. [/quote:1qa74opt]

As long as they lose the orange button.

seawolf17
Dec 10 2008 05:16 PM

Who let StevieJeets steal Edgy's password?

Edgy DC
Dec 10 2008 09:33 PM

Deserved, maybe, but I said "classickest," not "bestest."

In my idyllic futureworld everyone wears Mets home pinnies.