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Cars

Edgy DC Nov 21 2008 11:20 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 21 2008 11:41 AM

Which automakers went under during the great depression? Hudson lasted to the fifties. Studebaker to the sixties. How did any stay afloat besides Willie's? Every picture of my dad as a kid during World War II shows the family car on blocks. Was that the scarcity of gasoline or rubber or replacment parts or what? I know no civilians were buying new cars but I guess the automakers were able to get business back up after the war. Anyhow, what's going to happen now? Will Michigan fall into the lake if we don't save her industries? What will the US automotive industry look like five-ten-fifteen years hence? Think about this and respond. Listen to Gary Newman while you think.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 21 2008 11:26 AM

I realize that this is probably more complicated than I can grasp, but if GM, Ford, and Chrysler all went out of business, but the demand for automobiles remained about the same as it's been (with its typical up and down trends) wouldn't Toyota, Nissan, Honda and others fill the void? And Toyotas and Hondas etc. are made in the U.S. by American workers. Yeah, it sucks that their bosses are in Japan, but I don't know that it's anything to get panicky about. Also, I suspect that in years to come, some new American auto manufacturers would emerge. I'm inclined to let GM go bankrupt. I suppose we need Nate Silver to tell us what the likely result would be.

Edgy DC Nov 21 2008 11:34 AM

Well, now you're thinking like a Republican. Now, if we can get Republicans to think that way... I suppose the problem would be the devaluing of American products and the economic ramifications on American investments. One advantage the foreign manufacturers in America have is that they set up shop in "right to work" states (huge intersection with states that went for McCain, in fact). They get a lot more manufacturing staff hours for their buck --- maybe 75% more, I think. So if they abandoned the automakers that work with the unions that have always gone Democratic, and in the states that handed Obama his landslide, this newly empowered Democratic congress would be exhausting a big part of their political capital before the new president even hit the ground.

TheOldMole Nov 21 2008 11:42 AM

Here's one theory.

metirish Nov 21 2008 11:44 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 21 2008 12:03 PM

I'm torn on this and the way it is explained above by edgy with the map and all makes for harsh reading. In a way I am against a bail out for these badly run companies , on the other hand I would hate to see all these people lose their jobs , and as a big union supporter I of course don't want to see them get broken. Having said that these companies can't survive when each worker is costing them $75 per hour , especially when Toyota workers cost $43 per hour. If there is a bailout will the Government void the union contracts? , and if they are let go bankrupt then those same contracts will be torn up anyway. Not an easy choice here.

Edgy DC Nov 21 2008 12:01 PM

Michael Moore, of course, would tell you that it's not union contracts that led Ford to make stupid cars and fail to anticipate the changing market forces. Mole points to the Chinese takeover theory. It's not just the Chinese, but perhaps other countries more hostile to US interests. Similar concerns drove the economic recovery extension of $700 billion. No easy answer.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 21 2008 12:06 PM Re: Cars

[quote="Edgy DC":9zuyqby9] Think about this and respond. Listen to Gary Newman while you think. [/quote:9zuyqby9] One of my son's favorite videos, he calls this one "My Car." He shakes his tambourine at the right part. The collapse of one of these car bizzes puts about a million people out of work, I think I read. I have so little respect for the heads of these companies especially Nardelli at Crysler who is the same idiot responsible for Home Depot becoming the shittiest, worst-staffed store in your neighborhood. Ideally you'd like to see a real leader emerge here, make peace with the union, and get the co going again behind a startegy that isn;t stuck in the last century's way of doing biz. I mean, there has to be some kind of reckoning for an entire culture and economy built around the automobile pover the last 60 years, something else has to be next because we've reached the limits.

Nymr83 Nov 21 2008 01:35 PM

If a loan from the government, on terms ultimately favorable to the tax payers, would save them i'd be all for it, but there'd have to be a plan in place to make sure that the money actually helps turn the direction of the companies around rather than just keeping them afloat for X amount of months. unions are a big part of the big 3's problems but not the biggest part, thats their own lack of innovation. i'm obviously against a taxpayer-funded handout.

Edgy DC Nov 21 2008 02:39 PM

Nymr and Michael Moore similarity score rises by ten, to bring it to a grand total of... ten. There's hope for this country yet.

Edgy DC Dec 04 2008 01:24 PM

The big boys are back on the Hill, asking for nine billion more in loans (total $34 bills), but not grants. They've spoken to their PR guys and arrived in hybrids, rather than jets. They've in fact agreed to sell their jets and cut thier pay to $1 per year. Symbols, symbols, but late, late. For the public has turned more deeply against them, and Congress has shown an unwillingness to act against public opinion even if they believe they would be acting in the public interest. GM and Chrysler have declared they can't make it to the end of the year without mo' money. Maybe a merger there is still on the table. Who'd've believed Ford would be the healthiest one? Mike Crapo (R-Idaho) wants to link federal money with federal oversight. They're agreeable, but Edgy fears that this would mean more bureaucracy but not more responsible behavior. (Didn't Fannie and Freddie operate with a surfeit of congressional oversight)? Think about these issues as your recall when little could make you prouder than driving a sexy American car.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 04 2008 01:35 PM

GM and Chrysler have declared they can't make it to the end of the year without mo' money. It's amazing to think that General Motors might be within four weeks of going out of business. I have to say, I'm skeptical. I'm sure they're hoping that the next Congress will be friendlier to them, and it probably will, but I don't think it will be friendlier enough to suit the Big Three.

metirish Dec 04 2008 01:36 PM

[quote="metirish":10d2c0s7]Having said that these companies can't survive when each worker is costing them $75 per hour , especially when Toyota workers cost $43 per hour. . [/quote:10d2c0s7] I have meant to correct this lie that I posted here about how much these auto workers make , I saw a report last week that laid out the myth of the $73 per hour auto worker. The truth is that pay ranges from $14 to $28/30 per hour. Apparently a NYT reporter made the $73 per hour claim weeks ago in an article and media the world over and numbnuts like me spouted it as truth. Here is how one can arrive at $73 per hour , if you add up everything , health care, pensions and other compensation for current workers but also factor in the same for retired workers you get $73. So if you add up all these current and retired workers pay and benefits and divide that number by the hours worked you get something like $73. I apologize to those hard working people.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 04 2008 01:42 PM

Did the Times reporter say that the employees make $73 per hour, or that each worker costs the employer $73 per hour? I guess what I'm wondering is if the reporter got it wrong or if it was misinterpreted by the readers.

metirish Dec 04 2008 01:46 PM

I believe the Times guy reported that it costs $73 per hour for each worker, I shouldn't throw him under the bus though.

Nymr83 Dec 04 2008 04:11 PM

the actual numbers don't really matter, what matters is how do their labor costs (and other costs) compare to the japanese car makers and what are they planning to do about it?

Valadius Dec 04 2008 04:21 PM

In my Japanese Politics class we were shown a chart showing CEO-to-low-level-employee wage differences among industrialized nations. While the U.S. is at something like a CEO making 38 times as much (or was it 380?) than their employees, in Japan it's something like 10.9 times as much.

Kong76 Dec 04 2008 04:28 PM

I grew up in northern Westchester and had a few friends who had parents, one both mom and dad, who worked at the GM plant in Tarrytown which has long closed further south down the Hudson. Fat cat jobs is the only way to describe what they all had. Overpaid, benefits up the wazoo, union protection if they came to work drunk after lunch. That was in the 70's. In the 80's I played softball with and had some friends who were also working there. It was the same shit. They mocked the company they worked for, collected huge salaries for little work, and often joked about stuff that happened on the line that produced the crap they were putting out. One guy before the plant closing took a Saturn package to go work in Ten- nessee for the same freakin' wage he was making in Westchester and bought a three bedroom house in Saturnville for 1/6 of what it would cost to live up here and was making NY money. We've lost track of each other. Others took LARGE cash payouts just to go work elsewhere. The writing has been on the wall since the first Datsuns started showing up and it seems like the auto industry in this country needs to really just go away or severely downsize. There are too many auto companies in the world and they've had their chance to get on the right track for like twenty years. When gas was $4 a gallon GM was all shits and giggles over new technology on the horizon. Hello?? Amusing that gas is cheap again with the whole US industry on the brink, but I don't want to over do it. As a country we buy almost everything without blinking an eye at where it was made. The buy American when it comes to cars died a long time ago and I can't see any reason to blow government money on keeping the dream alive.

RealityChuck Dec 04 2008 08:40 PM Re: Cars

[quote="Edgy DC"]Which automakers went under during the great depression?

American Austin, American Steam Car, Auburn, Deusenberg, Cunningham, Cord, Detroit Electric, Doble, DuPont, Elcar, Franklin, Gardner, Henney, Jordon, Kissel, Marmon, Pierce-Arrow,and many others listed here.

Every picture of my dad as a kid during World War II shows the family car on blocks. Was that the scarcity of gasoline or rubber or replacment parts or what? I know no civilians were buying new cars but I guess the automakers were able to get business back up after the war.

Cars were put on blocks due to gas rationing, which was instituted to save rubber. The US could provide gasoline, but all rubber was in the hands of the Japanese. By rationing gas, it saved tired. Weird, but it was wartime.

Detroit wasn't badly hurt. They just made tanks and army vehicles instead of cars. Once the war ended, they went back to domestic vehicles.

DocTee Dec 04 2008 08:51 PM

Whoa. My dad worked at GM in Tarrytown for 35 years. He was no fat cat, and probably never made much more than 30K A high-school dropout who raised four kids in a public housing project (and we'd have been ineligible for that if he made too much), he sent three of his children to college and grad school. When I mentioned that GM had provided him with some pretty good opportunities, he replied that it was the UAW, and not the company, that made those things possible. My Dad was a paint sprayer-- he once joked that he never saw the driver's side of the vehicle since he was responsible for painting only the passenger side. He never smoked a day in his life, and died of lung cancer five years ago. Wanna guess where he contracted that? When he retired, his pals gave him a niuce party-- his employer? One share of stock. Fuck GM and anybody who thinks that the guys on the line are responsible for this debacle.

Kong76 Dec 05 2008 04:46 AM

DT: Whoa. My dad worked at GM in Tarrytown for 35 years. He was no fat cat, and probably never made much more than 30K A high-school dropout who raised four kids in a public housing project <=== Yeah, I figured I'd piss someone off. Sorry about your Pop. Before I go on, what year did he retire?

Edgy DC Dec 05 2008 07:12 AM

Apparently, CVS Detroit only carries one men's haircoloring tint.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 05 2008 07:15 AM

They look like a fun group. I guess smiling would be bad PR.

metsmarathon Dec 05 2008 07:49 AM

the collapse of the auto industry causes me grave concerns over the future of our industrial base and its ability to support us in times of war. and even in times of peace. as it stands, its rather difficult to acquire custom computer chips without the design leaving the comfy confines of our borders at least once before they can be fully integrated into something useful and secure. i don't like the idea of a future wherein we need to procure significant defense systems from abroad because we lack the ability to design and build them ourselves.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 05 2008 07:54 AM

[quote="Edgy DC":r9vwgcbb]Apparently, CVS Detroit only carries one men's haircoloring tint. [/quote:r9vwgcbb] Mount Begmore

metirish Dec 05 2008 07:56 AM

I watched Nardelli interviewed last night on BBC News , what an arrogant prick he is.

Edgy DC Dec 05 2008 08:20 AM Edited 3 time(s), most recently on Mar 31 2009 10:10 AM

So, you're all asking what stupid thing president Edgy would do. Pick one of these companies --- probably the one run most unconscionably the last few years, and buy control of it while the stock is low. This is the way the developing world establishes an industrial base. The government gets into the business until the private sector outmaneuvers or outdevelops them, then they sell out and celebrate that they triggered the competion. Often of course, that never happens. But the competiton would be already in place. So then I go before the American people and say, "We're not giving the industry anything that won't be coming back to the American people. We're going to take over Ford and it will be run as the FordAmerica Corporation, under the leadership of CEO and former Sentator Bigview McSmartpants. We're going to work with American workers --- the best in the world --- and build the vehicles that the future is demanding. Efficient cars. Lasting cars. Powerful cars. Clean cars. Cars that serve the needs of Americans and the world, and are a product of the ever-developing American character. We will engage renewable energy sources and liberate ourselves from the scourge of foreign energy dependence. Some will say that we shouldn't be in the private sector. I say, better a competitive player in the private sector than a nanny. For America is most innovative when it is most competitive. So let the other automakers compete with us on a level playing field and together revolutionize the industry. When FordAmerica has become part of that future, we will again turn our stock over to private interests, at market price. In this interest, GM and Chryler have announced their merger. Some plant closings may be necessary during re-structuring, and Congress and I have worked to enhance the packages available to workers laid off during this time, but this industry will come back stronger --- stronger and more sustainable, responding to America's values and the world's needs, and the American worker will be part of that future. We are not merely working with the traditional big three of passenger vehicles. Secretary of Commerce Bill Richardson and Secretary of the Treasury Whathisface and I have been meeting with many across the spectrum of motormaking and transportation industries --- corporations such as Boeing, Northrup Grumman, Mack, Harley Davidson, Catepillar, John Deere, and Breeze (whose cranes did such a fabulous job in their poetic disassembly of Shea Stadium this past year) --- and are working with them to embrace this new future, and to expand their visions out of their traditional market niches. Moving passengers; moving freight; moving soldiers; moving through land, sea, and sky, and cornfield. Moving across rails and through space. American vehicles made by American workers and powered by American energy sources will move boldly and tread responsibly. Our industry will again fuel our economy and we will grow. But it will also fuel our diplomacy, and we will lead. We will lead to a great new American tomorrow. And a great new global tomorrow." With any luck, I'll never feel the bullet as I walk back to my seat.

DocTee Dec 05 2008 08:24 AM

My Dad retired in 94 ( I think). He had worked the night shift, and when they consolidated to one shift, his position (by this time he was "paint inspector") was occupied by someone with more seniority. Rather than take another position or learn a new trade within the industry, he retired (at 55!) I don't deny that there were/are abuses by union members, only that they pale in comparison to those commited by white collar execs and that the UAW did/does more for its members than any "paternalistic" company. On an related note, a labor studies prof at Central Michigan University once told me that Bob Marley worked at Tarrytown. Anyone know if this is true?

metirish Dec 05 2008 08:26 AM

Seriously I can see President Obama saying just about word for word what President Edgy just said , I actually read that in an Obama voice, weird.

Edgy DC Dec 05 2008 08:40 AM

Really? You see Obama throwing a shout-out to the Mets?

Frayed Knot Dec 05 2008 08:57 AM

On an related note, a labor studies prof at Central Michigan University once told me that Bob Marley worked at Tarrytown. Anyone know if this is true? There is (was?) a auto plant of some kind in northern Deleware where I remember hearing that Marley's mother worked at for a time. I never heard if he did too (either there or elsewhere) but it's possible.

Edgy DC Dec 05 2008 09:01 AM

Did anybody watch that Steve Earle clip? What the hell was that? A chat show hosted by a Fran Drescher-type JA princess in New Jersey that had alt-country guys on for the hostess to flirt with? Does anybody remember this? I was actually looking for a clip of Bob Seger's "Making Thunderbirds," but that was the best I could come up with.

Kong76 Dec 05 2008 09:19 AM

DT: My Dad retired in 94 ( I think). <==== So he was there through a lot of ups and downs over 35 years. I could tell about fifty stories without trying about crap that went on at that plant that people simply don't realize went on. Knowing a number of people who worked there, hanging out with local cops, frequenting the bars in the area I know a lot of stuff. With my general lack of anonymity here, I think I'll just swallow my whistle and shut up on the subject. Again, sorry your father gave so many years and his premature death was caused by his labor enviornment.

Edgy DC Dec 09 2008 08:05 PM

Deal agreed to in principle including $15 billion in loans from the feds and an administration-appointed "car czar" who would withdraw the money if the automakers don't "do enough to innovate" or something. Me, I'm czarred out. Think about that as you listen to Johnny Bond.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 10 2008 07:20 AM

They should call him the Automobile Czar. Sounds more classy. I'd like to be the Automobile Czar. Who do I need to bribe to get that job?

Edgy DC Dec 10 2008 08:39 AM

GM's restructuring plan includes concentrating on Chevrolet, Cadillac, Buick and GMC. So what's the future of Saturn, Pontiac, Saab or Hummer? Will they just return to producing only military grade HumVees? (Please, please.) They're manufactured in Louisiana ("right-to-work" state) but the foreign-maket ones are built in Russia and South Africa., I think

Vince Coleman Firecracker Dec 10 2008 12:38 PM

Freidman's got an interesting op-ed piece up today about the bailout.

metirish Dec 12 2008 07:40 AM

No bailout for the Auto industry as it fails in the Senate.

Edgy DC Dec 12 2008 07:51 AM

Poor impotent President Bush. If Republican senators don't want to vote for it because they're afraid to answer for this one to their consituents (despite the election being behind them), they'd better be ready to answer for the much bigger package that's going to come when their bloc recedes after the changeover.

metirish Dec 15 2008 09:55 AM

Interesting article on the impact of foreign car companies. http://www.slate.com/id/2206525/

Edgy DC Dec 17 2008 06:59 AM

GM has withdrawn their sponsorship from the Yankees and YSIII. “We still want a presence in New York and the Yankees are a joke,” GM Northeast region spokeswoman Andrea Canabal said in a telephone interview. Wait, my finger slipped. She said, “We still want a presence in New York and we can’t do both.”

metirish Mar 31 2009 09:49 AM

Edgy DC Mar 31 2009 09:59 AM

The big line moved one mile an hour So loud it really hurt The big line moved so loud, it really hurt Back in 55, we were makin thunderbirds We filled conveyors, we met production The foremen didn't waste words We met production, the foremen didn't waste words We were young and proud, we were makin thunderbirds We were makin thunderbirds! We were makin thunderbirds! They were long and low and sleek and fast They were all you ever heard Back in 55, we were makin thunderbirds Now the years have flown and the plants have changed And youre lucky if you work The big line moves, but youre lucky if you work Back in 55, we were makin thunderbirds We were makin thunderbirds! We were makin thunderbirds! They were long and low and sleek and fast They were classic in a word Back in 55, we were makin thunderbirds! We were young and proud We were makin thunderbirds! We were young and sure We were makin thunderbirds!

Edgy DC Jun 01 2009 09:55 AM

GM declares bankruptcy as an apparent foreshadowing to a federal takeover. So, when this sort of thing happens, does a congressional committee take control or a federal agency? If you're the president (or whoever will decide), who do you make CEO? Please don't say George Mitchell.

Edgy DC Oct 01 2009 09:56 AM Re: Cars

Looks like Saturn has died: http://money.cnn.com/2009/09/30/news/co ... 2009093019