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="Centerfield":2knaadkg]I guess it's their award so they can award it to whomever they want, but Michael Phelps, to me, seems like the most overrated athlete in a while. During the Olympics, some were trying to argue that, because he won so many golds, he was the greatest athlete ever. Give me a break.
The only thing he can do is swim. The only reason he won all of those gold medals is because the Olympics have a thousand different events for swimming.[/quote:2knaadkg]
Seriously? You have another candidate? I am not arguing Phelps is the best ever athlete, but if the reason he won all those golds is because there are so many swimming events, how come no one has ever done it before?
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metirish
Dec 03 2008 11:35 AM
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I think Phelps is a worthy winner , he is a remarkable athlete and he seems like a good guy. The award itself though is probably rubbish.
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HahnSolo
Dec 03 2008 11:36 AM
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| ="Edgy DC"]Is there any doubt that Bolt would be SISotY if he were American? |
Yes, there is. I'm guessing there have been track and field athletes to accomplish similar feats as Bolt. Two examples: Michael Johnson in '96 (wasn't SOTY), and Florence Griffith Joyner in '88 (not SOTY). In fact, you have to go back to '84 for the last track and field athlete to win (well, share) SOTY, when Edmund Moses shared it with Mary Lou Retton (not counting '88, when there were two track athletes among a group who won for their humanitarian efforts).
Phelps would have won even if Bolt was an American.
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Edgy DC
Dec 03 2008 11:37 AM
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Well, someone has. Mark Spitz.
Spitz won seven, and Phelps eight. But I'm certain there were more events that Phelps was eligible for than Spitz.
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Edgy DC
Dec 03 2008 11:39 AM
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Michael Johnson did not do what Usain Bolt did.
I give him credit --- his 200m record stood for 12 years --- but the 100m is a different story, and Bolt exploded the record book.
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metirish
Dec 03 2008 11:44 AM
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Since 1954 foreigners have won this award 9 times, the last being Sammy Sosa who shared it in 1998 with guess who?
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HahnSolo
Dec 03 2008 11:45 AM
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| ="Edgy DC"]Well, someone has. Mark Spitz.
Spitz won seven, and Phelps eight. But I'm certain there were more events that Phelps was eligible for than Spitz. |
Phelps did qualify for all those races. Did Spitz qualify for any races and not swim? I don't know that answer.
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HahnSolo
Dec 03 2008 11:49 AM
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="Edgy DC":1cnzvl84]Michael Johnson did not do what Usain Bolt did.
I give him credit --- his 200m record stood for 12 years --- but the 100m is a different story, and Bolt exploded the record book.[/quote:1cnzvl84]
He did not, you are right. I used him as an example of similar accomplishments.
However, I believe he is the only man to win both the 200 and 400 at the same Olympiad, and I think he lopped 3/10th of a second off the World record in the 200. And he is an American, and still didn't win SOTY, despite Phelps-like coverage from NBC.
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Edgy DC
Dec 03 2008 12:11 PM
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Swimming events this year that didn't exist in Munich in 1972.
50-meter freestyle
200-meter individual medley
4x100-meter freestyle relay
Marathon 10km
Obviously, neither Phelps nor Spitz is going to do that last and any other events.
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Centerfield
Dec 03 2008 12:30 PM
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="HahnSolo":1sk109sm]="Centerfield":1sk109sm]I guess it's their award so they can award it to whomever they want, but Michael Phelps, to me, seems like the most overrated athlete in a while. During the Olympics, some were trying to argue that, because he won so many golds, he was the greatest athlete ever. Give me a break.
The only thing he can do is swim. The only reason he won all of those gold medals is because the Olympics have a thousand different events for swimming.[/quote:1sk109sm]
Seriously? You have another candidate? I am not arguing Phelps is the best ever athlete, but if the reason he won all those golds is because there are so many swimming events, how come no one has ever done it before?[/quote:1sk109sm]
I'm not arguing that Phelps isn't the best swimmer. He is, maybe even the best of all time, I don't know. I also have no problem with SI giving their award to whomever they want. My point is that a lot of this probably arose from the media coverage over the summer where some were calling Phelps the greatest athlete of all time, and to me, that is horseshit.
Jim Brown was one of the greatest football players ever, and a terrific lacrosse player. Deion Sanders played professional football and baseball. Bo Jackson, Charlie Ward, John Elway, Danny Ainge, Hakim Olajuwon, there are just hosts and hosts of athletes who excelled at more than one sport. Every decathlete excels at a minimum of ten things. Putting Phelps above all of these guys because of fourteen gold medals is idiotic. He won fourteen gold medals because he is a tremendous swimmer. And if you are a tremendous swimmer, you can win lots and lots of gold medals because there are tons of swimming events.
By comparison, if you are head and shoulders above your competition in shot-put, you will win the gold medal. But this one medal alone will not win you any Sportsman of the Year awards. But assume that the Olympics decided to split up shot put into a thousand different events. 16 pound shot put, 12 pound shot put, indoor shot put, outdoor shot put, shot put where you can only stand on one leg. Suddenly your world champion shot putter has five golds, finds himself on a Wheaties Box and gets compared to the likes of Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan.
I understand Michael Phelps is a phenomenal swimmer. But before you start calling him the greatest athlete ever, let's see him do something else.
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metirish
Dec 03 2008 12:37 PM
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="Centerfield":rodikdd4]
But before you start calling him the greatest athlete ever, let's see him do something else.[/quote:rodikdd4]
Mets need a left fielder , give him a try .
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HahnSolo
Dec 03 2008 12:46 PM
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="metirish":1vcv5yew]="Centerfield":1vcv5yew]
But before you start calling him the greatest athlete ever, let's see him do something else.[/quote:1vcv5yew]
Mets need a left fielder , give him a try .[/quote:1vcv5yew]
Or at least see if he can get a few outs out of the pen.
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Edgy DC
Dec 03 2008 12:50 PM
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Well, if swimming is "one thing," then the decathalon is really three things --- running, jumping, and throwing.
Let's lobby for more basketball events. Michael Jordan in 1992 could have walked off with five medals easy:
The basic five-on-five full-court.
The three-on-three half-court.
The one-on-one half court.
Horse.
Slam-dunk.
You don't think given three or four Olympics during his career he could have walked off with 14 medals?
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G-Fafif
Dec 03 2008 12:57 PM
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| ="metirish"]Since 1954 foreigners have won this award 9 times, the last being Sammy Sosa who shared it in 1998 with guess who? |
Brian McRae...Brian McRae...let it be Brian McRae...please say it's Brian McRae...
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metirish
Dec 03 2008 12:59 PM
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="G-Fafif"]| ="metirish"]Since 1954 foreigners have won this award 9 times, the last being Sammy Sosa who shared it in 1998 with guess who? |
Brian McRae...Brian McRae...let it be Brian McRae...please say it's Brian McRae... |
No but he is also Irish American.
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Benjamin Grimm
Dec 03 2008 01:06 PM
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Gotta be Mark McGwire.
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G-Fafif
Dec 03 2008 01:23 PM
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Brian McRae and I demand a recount.
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OlerudOwned
Dec 03 2008 04:10 PM
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It's totally off topic, but I can't let a mention of a McRae go by without posting this video.
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/kamDqL-AGzI&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/kamDqL-AGzI&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
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G-Fafif
Dec 03 2008 05:24 PM
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Hal McRae: Not Sportsman of the Year.
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seawolf17
Dec 03 2008 07:38 PM
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="Centerfield":2w5v1jcq]="HahnSolo":2w5v1jcq]="Centerfield":2w5v1jcq]I guess it's their award so they can award it to whomever they want, but Michael Phelps, to me, seems like the most overrated athlete in a while. During the Olympics, some were trying to argue that, because he won so many golds, he was the greatest athlete ever. Give me a break.
The only thing he can do is swim. The only reason he won all of those gold medals is because the Olympics have a thousand different events for swimming.[/quote:2w5v1jcq]
Seriously? You have another candidate? I am not arguing Phelps is the best ever athlete, but if the reason he won all those golds is because there are so many swimming events, how come no one has ever done it before?[/quote:2w5v1jcq]
I'm not arguing that Phelps isn't the best swimmer. He is, maybe even the best of all time, I don't know. I also have no problem with SI giving their award to whomever they want. My point is that a lot of this probably arose from the media coverage over the summer where some were calling Phelps the greatest athlete of all time, and to me, that is horseshit.
Jim Brown was one of the greatest football players ever, and a terrific lacrosse player. Deion Sanders played professional football and baseball. Bo Jackson, Charlie Ward, John Elway, Danny Ainge, Hakim Olajuwon, there are just hosts and hosts of athletes who excelled at more than one sport. Every decathlete excels at a minimum of ten things. Putting Phelps above all of these guys because of fourteen gold medals is idiotic. He won fourteen gold medals because he is a tremendous swimmer. And if you are a tremendous swimmer, you can win lots and lots of gold medals because there are tons of swimming events.
By comparison, if you are head and shoulders above your competition in shot-put, you will win the gold medal. But this one medal alone will not win you any Sportsman of the Year awards. But assume that the Olympics decided to split up shot put into a thousand different events. 16 pound shot put, 12 pound shot put, indoor shot put, outdoor shot put, shot put where you can only stand on one leg. Suddenly your world champion shot putter has five golds, finds himself on a Wheaties Box and gets compared to the likes of Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan.
I understand Michael Phelps is a phenomenal swimmer. But before you start calling him the greatest athlete ever, let's see him do something else.[/quote:2w5v1jcq]
This. Absolutely, this.
One of the commentators during the games -- I don't remember who -- actually said it at the time. He was probably thrown in front of a tank immediately following the event.
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Edgy DC
Dec 03 2008 07:52 PM
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One of the cooler things about Jackie Robinson is the thought that baseball might have been his fourth best sport coming out of college.
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HahnSolo
Dec 04 2008 06:52 AM
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| ="Centerfield"]
By comparison, if you are head and shoulders above your competition in shot-put, you will win the gold medal. But this one medal alone will not win you any Sportsman of the Year awards. But assume that the Olympics decided to split up shot put into a thousand different events. 16 pound shot put, 12 pound shot put, indoor shot put, outdoor shot put, shot put where you can only stand on one leg. Suddenly your world champion shot putter has five golds, finds himself on a Wheaties Box and gets compared to the likes of Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan. |
Not to keep elaborating on this, but oh, what the heck. You seem to be lumping all "swimming" together. Phelps did win golds in the IM, in addition to golds in the free and fly. Do you see any track guys winning gold in the decathlon (I'm not equating decathlon with IM, but its the best comparison I can come up with), then also winning the 400M? And if they did, would you have a problem if he won the SOTY? I would argue that winning a race while swimming four different strokes is much different from the four shot put scenarios you mention.
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HahnSolo
Dec 04 2008 06:52 AM
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="Edgy DC":2k9oh54f]One of the cooler things about Jackie Robinson is the thought that baseball might have been his fourth best sport coming out of college.[/quote:2k9oh54f]
Somebody tell Fred. There's still time to get it in the Rotunda.
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Edgy DC
Dec 04 2008 06:56 AM
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="HahnSolo"]| ="Centerfield"]
By comparison, if you are head and shoulders above your competition in shot-put, you will win the gold medal. But this one medal alone will not win you any Sportsman of the Year awards. But assume that the Olympics decided to split up shot put into a thousand different events. 16 pound shot put, 12 pound shot put, indoor shot put, outdoor shot put, shot put where you can only stand on one leg. Suddenly your world champion shot putter has five golds, finds himself on a Wheaties Box and gets compared to the likes of Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan. |
Not to keep elaborating on this, but oh, what the heck. You seem to be lumping all "swimming" together. Phelps did win golds in the IM, in addition to golds in the free and fly. Do you see any track guys winning gold in the decathlon (I'm not equating decathlon with IM, but its the best comparison I can come up with), then also winning the 400M? And if they did, would you have a problem if he won the SOTY? I would argue that winning a race while swimming four different strokes is much different from the four shot put scenarios you mention. |
I'm agreeing there. Although, in fairness, CF is clear that his problem isn't so much with SI giving the award to Phelps, but rather claims that he's the best athlete ever.
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Centerfield
Dec 04 2008 09:44 AM
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Exactly. I have no problem with the magazine giving him their award. I think it's idiotic to call him the greatest athlete ever simply by using medal count as a criteria. The way I see it, Phelps won 8 gold medals:
200 Meter Freestyle (Swimming)
4x100 Freestyle Relay (Swimming with friends)
4x200 Freestyle Relay (Swimming with friends for a little longer)
100 Meter Butterfly (Swimming except you have to move your arms in unison)
200 Meter Butterfly (ditto, except you have to do it for a little longer)
4x100 Medley Relay (Same as the 100 M Butterfly since Phelps swam this leg)
200 Meter Individual Medley (Swimming 4 different ways)
400 Meter Individual Medley (Swimming 4 different ways for a little longer)
Having been beaten to death with Michael Phelps coverage last summer, it's clear he can do two things really really well. Freestyle and Butterfly. In the medley events, he just tries to stay in the game with his other strokes until his superior ability in these two strokes allows him to put away the field.
Let's go back to my shot put example. I kind of threw those events out there for comedic effect, but let's create shot put events equivalent to those of swimming:
Shot put
Endurance shot put (aggregate of 25 throws)
Shot put relay (aggregate of 4 shot putters)
Endurance shot put relay (4 guys, 100 throws baby!)
Butterfly shot put (Hold the shot to your chest with both hands and heave it like a chest pass)
Endurance Butterfly Shot Put (25 chest passes)
Shot Put Medley Relay (one guy shot puts regular, one guy butterflys, one guy puts with his left hand, one guy does a running put)
Individual Shot Put Medley (you get the idea)
Our legendary shot putter now leaves Beijing with 8 gold medals. Is he now the greatest athlete ever?
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dgwphotography
Dec 04 2008 10:36 AM
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I had a hard time taking Phillips seriously. Maybe it's because he looks so much like Screech
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Frayed Knot
Dec 04 2008 10:56 AM
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Shirley you're not saying that NBC hypes olympic athletes?!?
Between them and know-nothing ESPN types who suddenly find themselves commenting on swimming even though they probably don't know the length of the pool, there was certainly enough hype to go around.
I remember NBC going to the hype well (also trying for politcally correctness points) by trying to compare the U.S. women's ice hockey gold medal win over Canada with the men's 1980 team.
And, y'know, aside from the fact that a US/Canada battle for gold/silver was all but guaranteed before the tourney even started, and the lack of the amateurs vs pros angle, and that is was w/o the mania of the home-country crowd, and the missing Ruskies in Afghanistan era cold war tension complete with an upcoming boycott of the Moscow summer games, it was pretty much identical.
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Centerfield
Dec 04 2008 11:06 AM
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Oh and the fact that, um, no one cared about the women's team.
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G-Fafif
Dec 04 2008 12:37 PM
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FWIW, I read the article, and SI doesn't frame Phelps as the greatest athlete in world or Olympic history. In addition to his achievements in the pool in Beijing, they play up the impact he had on his sport, how mesmerized the nation was during his run (or swim) and how he has used his celebrity and wealth to act as a real sportsman, far beyond, perhaps, what one would imagine. This includes his getting involved at a hands-on level with a number of kids and for the betterment of his hometown.
It's a good profile once you get past the "ladies dripping with diamonds" setup and slightly cringeworthy idolatry. The guy comes off, accomplishments and actions combined, as sportsman of the year. Read it [url=http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/magazine/specials/sportsman/2008/12/01/sportsman.2008/index.html]here[/url].
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seawolf17
Dec 04 2008 12:45 PM
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="Centerfield":23zhj477]Oh and the fact that, um, no one cared about the women's team.[/quote:23zhj477]
There are female athletes!?!
Oh, wait. The beach volleyball girls. Got it.
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Edgy DC
Dec 04 2008 01:01 PM
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I kind of always thought it would be a good idea to reconsider an alternative decathalon, with a better understanding of what makes the total athlete. Swimming shoud certainly be there. I mean, if they're going to judge how you move across the earth and how you leap into the sky, they should measure how you move through the element that covers the earth.
And fire. They should measure how you move through fire.
Actually, how about a medal event for the president's physical fitness test?
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metirish
Feb 01 2009 04:09 PM
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metsguyinmichigan
Feb 01 2009 06:02 PM
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Who does he think he is, Grant Roberts?
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TheOldMole
Feb 01 2009 10:04 PM
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The really incredible achievement was cyclist John Howard, who set both the world speed and endurance records -- like setting world records in the 100 yard dash and the marathon.
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