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="attgig":24qhj0cp]Sounds like the suspension in the NFL this past year. bunch of players (like Deuce McAllister) took a OTC dieuretic that was not in any banned substance list, but they suspended him anyway. The NFL didn't publish that drug because it helps to hide steroids in the blood. But then they suspend people anyways because they took it without knowing.
in this case, it sounds like the players union screwed up and didn't get the info from MLB over to all the players.[/quote:24qhj0cp]
In other words we have a misleading thread title!
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attgig
Jan 05 2009 09:20 PM
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="SteveJRogers":3iq18wtb]In other words we have a misleading thread title![/quote:3iq18wtb]
I would say so. As much as I don't like the phils, I'm not going to hold this against him.
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Willets Point
Jan 05 2009 09:33 PM
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I actually think he got a raw deal.
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Nymr83
Jan 05 2009 10:09 PM
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he got fucked. and i really don't see the point in baseball banning things that are over-the-counter legal in the united states, where do they draw the line? is caffeine a performance enhancer?
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Edgy DC
Jan 06 2009 06:04 AM
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There are a lot of things that are over-the-counter legal that are banned from sports. Corked bats... vaseline... cutlery.
How many games did he get for naming his daughter Jazlyn?
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Nymr83
Jan 06 2009 06:06 AM
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i'm talking about things you eat/drink and i'm sure you knew that
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Edgy DC
Jan 06 2009 06:15 AM
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Yes, I know, and I don't think that makes a difference. The point is that a sports governors' are allowed to decide what's allowed and what isn't beyond what is banned by law --- whether it is equipment, athletic techniques, or dietary supplements used to mask performance enhancing drugs.
A lot of the things banned by the International Olympic Committee are legally distributed. Androstenedione, for instance.
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Nymr83
Jan 06 2009 06:38 AM
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| ]The point is that a sports governors' are allowed to decide |
thats not the point, because i never argued that they didn't have the authority to decide, i'm just arguing its a bad decision
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Edgy DC
Jan 06 2009 07:00 AM
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It's my fucking point.
And when you argue "i really don't see the point in baseball banning things that are over-the-counter legal in the united states," I'm tellling you it's done every day and all the time. The reason is to create a framework for the competition they intend to stage.
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metsguyinmichigan
Jan 06 2009 07:19 AM
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="Edgy DC":1d7kneh0]
How many games did he get for naming his daughter Jazlyn?[/quote:1d7kneh0]
That's what I was thinking, too.
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metsmarathon
Jan 06 2009 07:34 AM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 06 2009 07:42 AM
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in ncaa competition, you can fail a drug test for having elevated levels of caffeine.
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Edgy DC
Jan 06 2009 07:41 AM
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Thank you.
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metsmarathon
Jan 06 2009 07:56 AM
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and caffeine can be taken before and/or during exercise to improve one's performance, depending on the sport/activity. in fact, many popular and effective nutrient replacement products marketed to endurance athletes contain caffeine. and some of them are delicious, too!
(the one on the left, yum. on the right, yuck!)
to fail the ncaa drug test, i think you need to consume the equivalent of about 10 cups of coffee, depending on your metabolism. to fail the olympic drug test, 8 cups of coffee should suffice. this is way more than you'd expect a casual drinker of coffee to have in their system (depending, again, on your body and metabolism)
the gu pictured above, which i highly recommend (again, the blueberry pomegranate is delicious. the vanilla orange, not), contains about a third a cup of coffee's worth, and should therefore be okie dokie with all the testing agencies in that regard.
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Nymr83
Jan 06 2009 08:21 AM
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thats just absurd.
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metsmarathon
Jan 06 2009 08:38 AM
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duan
Jan 06 2009 09:26 AM
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="Nymr83":34f8hfa5]thats just absurd.[/quote:34f8hfa5]
no, it's true.
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duan
Jan 06 2009 09:31 AM
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sorry I shouldn't be so flippant, but the reality is, Olympic athletes get pretty much EVERY SINGLE THING they put into their mouths approved by their federation's doctors. That's the way baseball players should think by default.
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Edgy DC
Jan 06 2009 09:51 AM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 06 2009 11:30 AM
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Lost in the shuffle here is that Sergio Mitre has gone down the same way.
GNC is next to Scores in places that indicate highly questionable judgment for a professional athlete even to show up at.
There's some loose threads here. If I'm reading the report correctly, Romero told a team trainer what he intended to take, the trainer inquired with the league, the league said no, and the trainer apparently never got back to JC or any other placers with that info.
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metsmarathon
Jan 06 2009 09:55 AM
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i would think it would behoove the various professional unions to establish a laboratory whose sole purpose would be to certify the cleanliness of OTC supplements. players could either submit a sample of a purchased supplement for analysis prior to use, or the supplement manufacturers could submit to random analysis of a given lot of supplement in return for a handy certification of goodness.
jc romero, it appears, tried to do the right thing, and got fucked by a shady supplement. if he had the ingredients checked, and they checked out, then the manufacturer put something in there that shouldn't have been. currently, there's really no recourse for romero, but perhaps to sue the manufacturer. my way, he'd still have to be proactive and have the stuff checked out, but it would be a more vigorous analysis than just looking at the stated ingredients, and should prevent a player from taking supplements contaminated by the supplier.
a further offshoot of this strategy would be to see teams stock up on the certified good stuff for their players to use with a clear conscience.
and it really makes no sense as to why the fda stays the fuck out of the "nutrition" business.
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duan
Jan 06 2009 09:58 AM
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i'm not sure if that's the way I read it.
Either way, you're an athlete who gets drugs tested, ask that somethings ok to take from the people who make the rules, not from people who interpret them.
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Edgy DC
Jan 06 2009 09:58 AM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 06 2009 10:01 AM
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="metsmarathon":36ldnps5]and it really makes no sense as to why the fda stays the fuck out of the "nutrition" business.[/quote:36ldnps5]
Prediction: that'll change soon.
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metsguyinmichigan
Jan 06 2009 10:00 AM
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So JC was taking these "supplements" because he thought they'd keep him healthy, like my psyllium seed husk tablets, or because he thought they were a legal way to enhance his performance?
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Frayed Knot
Jan 06 2009 11:01 AM
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| ="duan"]... Olympic athletes get pretty much EVERY SINGLE THING they put into their mouths approved by their federation's doctors. That's the way baseball players should think by default. |
And they'll likely get to that point, only now they're still a bit new at this.
As is, apparently, their union.
It sounds like Romero at least tried to do things the right way. I'd fight it if I were him too, although ultimately he may not have enough to stand on.
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metsmarathon
Jan 06 2009 11:17 AM
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="metsguyinmichigan":2oiioy1d]So JC was taking these "supplements" because he thought they'd keep him healthy, like my psyllium seed husk tablets, or because he thought they were a legal way to enhance his performance?[/quote:2oiioy1d]
for the same reason that i drink gatorade when i run. to supplement his nutritional intake in order to maximize either his potential for performance or his ability to recover afterwards.
ain't nothing wrong with supplements, in general, unless suddenly we think that our professional athletes should be strict organic locavores.
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Frayed Knot
Jan 06 2009 11:27 AM
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Will Carroll from BP:
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=1141
J.C. Romero was suspended for fifty games under terms of MLB’s drug policy. Just before it was handed down, Romero made his case public, the same one that the arbitrator rejected. With the NFL’s drug policy currently under attack in the Starcaps case, where six players took a supplement that was tainted with a diuretic but unknown to the players, this type of defense might hold water.
Until you learn what Romero tested positive for. According to multiple sources, Romero tested positive for 6-OXO Extreme, a product that enhances testosterone production in ways very similar to anabolic steroids. While legal and still available at your local GNC, 6-OXO Extreme* has always carried a warning that it could result in positive tests. If you look at the above link, you’ll be able to find the same warning in the online information.
But it gets better, or worse, if you’re Romero. 6-OXO is a product of Ergopharm. Ergopharm is owned and operated by a guy you might remember: Patrick Arnold. Yes, that one. Arnold was the source for the THG used by BALCO. Arnold served several months in jail due to his involvement and is now back in business.
If Romero didn’t know what he was taking, he sure got unlucky in picking the product marked “for hardcore users only” and with a connection that baseball fans would rather forget.
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metsmarathon
Jan 06 2009 11:32 AM
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ooh! i was just reading the same thing.
apparently, the bottle that romero had did not contain the cited warning about the potential to test positive for banned substances, and its entirely likely that that warning was added to the bottles after the bottle romero had purchased was put on store shelves.
the provenance of the company, while titillating, is really nothing that i would expect an athlete to look deeply into...
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metsmarathon
Jan 06 2009 11:44 AM
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| =" [url=http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/20090106_Phils__Romero_denies_wrongdoing_on_eve_of_suspension.html:8k89gky3]the philly inquirer[/url:8k89gky3]":8k89gky3]A new supplement
Romero said he went to the store to look for a supplement in July, the time of year he typically starts weight training again. He went to the shelf where his usual supplement was stocked and noticed a new product, 6-OXO Extreme, next to it. Because the familiar supplement required him to take eight large pills a day, he was intrigued by the other product.
The Major League Baseball Players' Association has told players that supplements purchased in U.S. retail stores should be safe and within the guidelines of baseball's drug-testing program. The union acknowledged giving that advice in a letter it sent out to players and their advisers in November. That letter, which arrived too late to help Romero, informed players that three over-the-counter supplements were found to create positive tests under baseball's drug program.
In July, Romero showed the new supplement to Phillies strength coach Dong Lien, who recommended that Romero get a second opinion before using it. Romero then showed it to his personal nutritionist, "the guy I've been working with since I've been in major-league baseball," Romero said.
That nutritionist checked the product's label and saw nothing on MLB's banned list. Romero began taking the supplement at that point.
Meanwhile, according to the arbitrator's report, Lien sent a sample of the supplement to MLB for testing. The tests showed the supplement contained a substance that could result in a positive drug test. A copy of those results was sent to commissioner Bud Selig's office in July.
Considering it was the first time a banned substance was found in an FDA-regulated, over-the-counter supplement - one available to every major-leaguer and millions of youths - that should have sounded alarms. But no one from MLB, the players' association or the Phillies told Romero that there was a problem with the supplement.
So where was the negligence? With Romero? With Lien? With MLB? With a union that told Romero and other Latin players they could trust products in U.S. stores such as Vitamin Shoppe (where Romero purchased the supplement) or GNC?[/quote:8k89gky3]
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Centerfield
Jan 06 2009 12:21 PM
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="SteveJRogers":t4clidsw]="attgig":t4clidsw]Sounds like the suspension in the NFL this past year. bunch of players (like Deuce McAllister) took a OTC dieuretic that was not in any banned substance list, but they suspended him anyway. The NFL didn't publish that drug because it helps to hide steroids in the blood. But then they suspend people anyways because they took it without knowing.
in this case, it sounds like the players union screwed up and didn't get the info from MLB over to all the players.[/quote:t4clidsw]
In other words we have a misleading thread title![/quote:t4clidsw]
Steve, why are you such a tool?
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Gwreck
Jan 06 2009 07:03 PM
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I think Romero's beef is more with the Union than anyone. The MLB players union can't possibly be hurting for money -- I can't see why they wouldn't have full-time staff who can help players avoid these very problems.
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