Master Index of Archived Threads


IGT, 09/06 Mets @ Braves

KC Sep 06 2005 04:51 PM

GAME: New York Mets (70-67) at Atlanta Braves (79-59). TIME: Tuesday, 7:35 p.m. EDT. History shows it's smart to bet against the New York Mets whenever they play the Atlanta Braves at Turner Field. Coming off yet another loss to their longtime rivals, the Mets will try to rebound and creep closer in the NL wild card race when the teams play the middle game of their series. Chipper Jones continued his mastery of New York with a tiebreaking, two-run homer in the eighth inning on Monday as the first-place Braves beat the Mets 4-2. ''I respect that organization and the players over there,'' said Jones, who is a career .337 hitter with 34 homers and 102 RBIs in 149 games against the Mets. ''It just so happens that when we play each other a lot late in the season over the last few years, I've had some pretty meaningful hits.'' For whatever reason, the Mets have had no success at Turner Field, losing 49 of 69 games since the park opened in 1997. New York has dropped five of six meetings on the road in the series this season and is 109-143 all-time in Atlanta. The Braves maintained their comfortable lead atop the NL East while the Mets fell three games behind Houston in the wild-card race. The Astros took over the top spot with a win over Philadelphia on Monday night. New York has lost five of six and seven of nine overall after going 9-2 from Aug. 19-26. Tuesday's pitching matchup on paper is as good as it gets, though both Mets ace Pedro Martinez and the Braves' John Smoltz haven't had much success of late. Martinez is 1-3 with a 3.26 ERA over his last seven starts, while Smoltz is 1-1 with a 4.46 ERA over his last six outings. Martinez gave up a career high-tying four home runs in Wednesday's 8-2 loss to Philadelphia. ''I could sense I didn't have my best stuff,'' Martinez said. ''I tried to hold them as long as I could.'' Smoltz is suffering through neck stiffness, an injury he doesn't believe to be that serious. As a result, he said he was clearly not himself during the Braves' 8-7, 10-inning win over Washington on Thursday, an outing in which he allowed three runs and seven hits over five innings. The veteran right-hander had a cortisone shot earlier in the week, and is set to start against New York, Washington, the Mets again and Philadelphia before the end of the regular season. ''I would like to gear myself to stay on track,'' Smoltz said. STANDINGS: Mets - 5th place, 8 1/2 GB, NL East. Braves - 1st place, NL East. METS PROBABLE STARTER: Martinez (13-6, 2.90 ERA). A three-time CY Young Award winner, Martinez is 7-7 with a 3.21 ERA in 22 career appearances, including 15 starts, against the Braves. BRAVES PROBABLE STARTER: Smoltz (13-6, 3.02 ERA). The 38-year-old right-hander, who won the 1996 NL CY Young, is 12-10 with a 3.55 ERA and 24 saves in 56 career appearances, including 28 starts, against the Mets. OFFENSIVE LEADERS: Mets - David Wright, .315 avg., 86 RBIs and 86 runs; Cliff Floyd, 29 HRs; Jose Reyes, 49 SBs. Braves - Marcus Giles, .305 avg. and 91 runs; Andruw Jones, 45 HRs and 112 RBIs; Rafael Furcal, 39 SBs. SEASON SERIES: Braves, 10-4. STREAKS AND NOTES: Mets - The Mets purchased the contract of RHP Danny Graves from Triple-A Norfolk, where he went 0-2 with an 18.00 ERA in five games. ... OF Carlos Beltran is 1-for-11 in his career against RHP Smoltz. ... 3B Wright is 4-for-10 against Smoltz. Braves - LHP Mike Hampton (herniated disc), eligible to come off the DL Sunday, is to throw four simulated innings on Wednesday. ... 1B Adam LaRoche is 4-for-82 (.049) since Aug. 19. ... 3B Chipper Jones is only hitting .125 (4-for-32) in his career against RHP Martinez. ROAD/HOME RECORDS: Mets - 29-40 on the road; Braves - 46-24 at home. INJURIES: Mets - C Mike Piazza (hand), 15-day DL; OF Mike Cameron (facial fracture), 60-day DL; RHP Bartolome Fortunato (back), 60-day DL; LHP Felix Heredia (shoulder), 60-day DL; RHP Tyler Yates (shoulder), 60-day DL. Braves - LHP Hampton (back), 15-day DL; RHP Jay Powell (arm), 15-day DL; C Eddie Perez (shoulder), 60-day DL.

KC Sep 06 2005 05:30 PM

NY METS Reyes SS Matsui 2B Beltran CF Floyd LF Wright 3B Mientkiewicz 1B Castro C Diaz RF Martinez P ATL BRAVES Furcal SS Giles 2B C Jones 3B A Jones CF Franco 1B Francoeur RF Johnson LF McCann C Smoltz P

Elster88 Sep 06 2005 05:34 PM

Matsui! _____________________________ This post was made under the designation 162) Mike Phillips

Valadius Sep 06 2005 06:34 PM

Goddamn Andruw Jones won NL Player of the Month over David Wright. GODDAMMIT!!!!

Rockin' Doc Sep 06 2005 06:38 PM

It seems like we are perpetually in the role of also rans to the damn front running Braves.

Zvon Sep 06 2005 07:35 PM

Valadius wrote: Goddamn Andruw Jones won NL Player of the Month over David Wright. GODDAMMIT!!!! GET OUT! *Zvon pushes Val to the ground* whoops, sorry. Over reacted a bit. that sucks

Zvon Sep 06 2005 07:45 PM

Houstons up 1-0 on the Phils already. Ill be watchin that game on TV, and keep ya posted. Because of the direct effect on the standings Ill do it here. Hope these 2 team just trade off wins and losses and keep it the WILDCARD race that nobody seems to want to win

Zvon Sep 06 2005 07:49 PM

Elster88 wrote: Matsui! _____________________________ This post was made under the designation 162) Mike Phillips he freakin better be in there....gggggggggggggggggggg.(lol) I just calmed down after last night and i dont wanna be goin off again. Thats another role that should be defined at this point. For good or bad, Matsui is healthy and he's our reg 2nd baseman. Cairo is a utility bench player. We should sink or swim with this now .

Zvon Sep 06 2005 08:14 PM

ive been having problems with this site tonight. It wasnt loading for awhile there. I see they reached Martinez for a run in the 1st.

ScarletKnight41 Sep 06 2005 08:20 PM

Zvon wrote: GET OUT! *Zvon pushes Val to the ground* whoops, sorry. Over reacted a bit. that sucks I see Zvon's Inner Elaine Benes is coming out tonight. (And yes, the site was down for a while, and it's very slow now.)

Edgy DC Sep 06 2005 08:21 PM

Triple for KazMat. Can we call him hot yet?

KC Sep 06 2005 08:22 PM

Matsui triples, Beltran walks, one out in the 3rd for Floyd who says ... Double play 4-6-3

Edgy DC Sep 06 2005 08:22 PM

Jive-ass double play.

Valadius Sep 06 2005 08:23 PM

Kaz is performing well... finally.

Johnny Dickshot Sep 06 2005 08:24 PM

Kaz has done more in the last 3 games than Cairo in his last 3 weeks. I hat baseball tho.

Valadius Sep 06 2005 08:31 PM

Fucking Larry is up at bat.

Valadius Sep 06 2005 08:36 PM

You bastard Andruw!!!!!

KC Sep 06 2005 08:39 PM

Making fun of F X Healy's overuse of the word cahnfidence worked. Maybe we should work on his running commercial for the New York Metropolitan Baseball Club, Inc. SHUT UP, Francis.

Valadius Sep 06 2005 08:41 PM

He always predicts the opposite of what happens. He has no feel for the game at all.

Zvon Sep 06 2005 08:41 PM

I guess the odds of a Jones being involved in all the scoring so far are a little higher while playing the bastard Braves. In any case, the Mets have to start hittin. Hittin big-big Phils/Asstros tied it 1-1 goin into the 8th..

Edgy DC Sep 06 2005 08:42 PM

It's FX's birthday. Give him a pass.

Valadius Sep 06 2005 08:42 PM

Todd Pratt vs. Dan Wheeler in that one.

Valadius Sep 06 2005 08:44 PM

It doesn't matter what day it is, whether it's April Fool's Day or Independence Day, he never knows what he's talking about.

Valadius Sep 06 2005 08:47 PM

Pedro 1-2-3.

Zvon Sep 06 2005 08:50 PM

See, on the Kaz triple, you have a guy on third with less that 2 out, you have to plate that run. If your teams stagnant, pull a squeeze. Beltran seems to enjoy bunting in the clutch. Shake em up guys. But the Braves play the %'s, dont give Beltran anything to hit, and get the DP out of Floyd. Another opportunitiy down the drain. And Cox shows why he is the best manager in the game today. Two games ago we drove in like 5 runners in scoring position. Yesterdays game I think we left 8. Cant win that way.

KC Sep 06 2005 08:53 PM

>>>It's FX's birthday. Give him a pass.<<< It wasn't his birthday the last time he did it. Hey, are you driving conversation the way you think it should go? I've read about that.

Zvon Sep 06 2005 09:00 PM

The Braves are concentrating on keepin Reyes down, and are doin a good job of it. If Matsui can play to his potential, we are so much more effective with the two of them at the top. Ive had my complaints about Matsui over the last two yrs, but most were based on the Mets playing musical chairs with Reyes, who should have always been their priority. And at times Matsui just seemed to not have his head in it. Matsui grounds out this time, but he is going to end up changing the way teams try to play the Mets, if he can keep up his offensive surge over this final month. He could make the difference.

Valadius Sep 06 2005 09:02 PM

Come on, Beltran. Hit another homer for Pedro.

Edgy DC Sep 06 2005 09:03 PM

]It wasn't his birthday the last time he did it. Yeah, don't give him a pass for that. That was egregious. ]Hey, are you driving conversation the way you think it should go? It's my OPINION!

Valadius Sep 06 2005 09:04 PM

Come on, Cliffy! Get your 30th!!!!!

Elster88 Sep 06 2005 09:05 PM

You know, if the Mets weren't fifth in the league in RS and second in RS/RA differential or whatever the fuck, I'd be worried. _____________________________ This post had the designation 162) Mike Phillips

Valadius Sep 06 2005 09:07 PM

D-WRIGHT!!!!

Edgy DC Sep 06 2005 09:08 PM

Four extra-base hits. How bout a run or two?

Elster88 Sep 06 2005 09:09 PM

Edgy DC wrote: Triple for KazMat. Can we call him hot yet? NO GODDAMMIT. KAZ SUCKS. EVEN A BROKEN CLOCK IS RIGHT TWICE A DAY, BRING UP THE MINOR LEAGUER. I am lashing out a lot today. My apologies. _____________________________ This post had the designation 162) Mike Phillips

Valadius Sep 06 2005 09:11 PM

Manker drives one in!!!!!

Zvon Sep 06 2005 09:16 PM

Come on Pedro. Your the man-get out of this without a run. Keep us in it.

Elster88 Sep 06 2005 09:25 PM

Giles can fly. Keith is pissed. _____________________________ This post had the designation 162) Mike Phillips

Edgy DC Sep 06 2005 09:25 PM

Oh, poo. The Braves beating us with their own Willieball.

Valadius Sep 06 2005 09:26 PM

Every run has been scored on a groundout or sac fly.

Zvon Sep 06 2005 09:27 PM

squeeze?

cooby Sep 06 2005 09:28 PM

Valadius wrote: Come on, Beltran. Hit another homer for Pedro. Wow, I had forgotten all about that

ScarletKnight41 Sep 06 2005 09:29 PM

It's easy to forget that Beltran used to be able to hit home runs.

Zvon Sep 06 2005 09:31 PM

i guess thats the only way a guy scores on a ground out to the pitcher, huh? Damn. Phils lost, so Asstros win 2 of those so far

Frayed Knot Sep 06 2005 09:32 PM

You forgot about it because it was never really a trend, merely a coincidence, and it did what coincidences normally do, it went away.

Elster88 Sep 06 2005 09:32 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 06 2005 09:39 PM

Pedro will be 13-7 if the Mets don't come back. He looks discomfited to be coming out of the game. I'm shocked that he could get that many losses, the way he has pitched, on a team that is fifth in the league in RS. Grr, gumble, grouch. Wow I was off on his record _____________________________ This post had the designation 162) Mike Phillips

Zvon Sep 06 2005 09:35 PM

Elster88 wrote: I'm shocked that he could get that many losses, the way he has pitched, on a team that is fifth in the league in RS. this is discouraging, to say the least.

Edgy DC Sep 06 2005 09:39 PM

Mets are losing this game on defense. Not even bad defense, just defense not good enough to win, particularly for a bat-slumping team.

Frayed Knot Sep 06 2005 09:40 PM

The difference in this game is in grounders, mainly in DPs turned and DPs not turned.

Edgy DC Sep 06 2005 09:40 PM

Good simulposts.

Zvon Sep 06 2005 09:45 PM

Frayed Knot wrote: The difference in this game is in grounders, mainly in DPs turned and DPs not turned. oh, he went for 2. Im doing a dozen things and my attentions been divided. that should have been obvious.

Edgy DC Sep 06 2005 09:47 PM

Soemthing we might have thought of going into September: the managers in this division average 11.85 years of experience to Randolph's zero.

Zvon Sep 06 2005 10:07 PM

shoot, I have not been able to be here 100%. I am now. Shingo to handle the top of the order, huh?---down by 2 runs with a inning to go. So i guess now is the time to give Takatsu some confidence? Okay...................hope it works.

seawolf17 Sep 06 2005 10:08 PM

And another season slowly dies on a trip to Atlanta. If they weren't building the world's largest aquarium, I would hate the whole damn city.

Zvon Sep 06 2005 10:10 PM

I think my CBS sportline feed is frozen. No change for like 5 minutes. Feels like 5 minutes.

Zvon Sep 06 2005 10:13 PM

whoops--suddenly its 2 outs for the mets in the 9th. its hard to keep up or even judge the teams performance when you cant watch the game and are at the mercy of a web site feed, but on the whole, the Mets got the pitching they needed here, and not the hitting.

KC Sep 06 2005 10:16 PM

It's over. The game, that clinging on to a wild card thing too.

Frayed Knot Sep 06 2005 10:18 PM

This is just phuking phrustrating. Every one of these recent losses (except the last Pedro start a week ago) is by 1 or 2 runs. A hit here or a hit there ...

Zvon Sep 06 2005 10:18 PM

KC wrote: It's over. The game, that clinging on to a wild card thing too. maybe, maybe not. baseball is a funny game like that. It dont look good, but... things can happen. I wont roll over until the math says they are dun.

Zvon Sep 06 2005 10:23 PM

Frayed Knot wrote: This is just phuking phrustrating. Every one of these recent losses (except the last Pedro start a week ago) is by 1 or 2 runs. A hit here or a hit there ... I agree that this is tuff to got thru. but would you rather be 15 games out and trying to find periferal things to be interested in? I can do that, but id rather be doin this. Not suffering,lol, but hangin on every game. I truly didnt expect to be here in April. And that was WITH the 25 HR and 80 rbi out of Beltran which we aint gettin. Ill deal with the suffering. Ill get past this. Ill bleed blue and orange until my viens are sapped.

mlbaseballtalk Sep 06 2005 10:28 PM

"Ya can burn down the Mitchell House, but don't touch the Claremount Lounge"-Rockin' Pontoons Maybe the Mets should visit that, ehem, fine Southern Style version of the Badda Bing Club Hey ANYTHING to get the bats alive for the final game tommorow you know...

Rotblatt Sep 06 2005 11:21 PM

Elster88 wrote: Pedro will be 13-7 if the Mets don't come back. He looks discomfited to be coming out of the game. I'm shocked that he could get that many losses, the way he has pitched, on a team that is fifth in the league in RS. Grr, gumble, grouch. Wow I was off on his record _____________________________ This post had the designation 162) Mike Phillips Ah, but a pitcher's wins and losses are meaningless, grasshopper--merely a product of circumstance. Pedro hasn't been Pedro for a while now. That's the fewest number of K's he's had this year, and against a pretty free-swinging team. Once we're mathematically out of it, I hope we shut him down for the rest of the season. It'll look bad, but who gives a shit? Either way, we should go with a six-man rotation the rest of the way. Petey needs his rest. This game bit, by the way. My argument yesterday was that we didn't hit enough XBH, so today we provide that but still can't score. Pretty damn frustrating. We still played pretty solidly, though. Any answer on what Matsui was thinking with the "shoulda been" double play?

Johnny Dickshot Sep 06 2005 11:27 PM

Looked like he had trouble getting the ball out of his glove to me. His one weakness as compared to Cairo is turning the DP and of course it comes back to kill us.

Edgy DC Sep 06 2005 11:28 PM

My game feed was breaking up, but I think FX was saying that Anderson was on deck with Diaz up, so I'd like to call Randolph out for something he didn't get a chance to do. Mr. Randolph, batting .370 with your pinch hitters isn't helping if we keep gunning for singles when we need homers. They're going to toss it over the plate and play the lines and accept a single. We should be pumping out Jacobs and looking for the big fly there.

Zvon Sep 07 2005 12:18 AM

Edgy DC wrote: My game feed was breaking up, but I think FX was saying that Anderson was on deck with Diaz up, so I'd like to call Randolph out for something he didn't get a chance to do. Mr. Randolph, batting .370 with your pinch hitters isn't helping if we keep gunning for singles when we need homers. They're going to toss it over the plate and play the lines and accept a single. We should be pumping out Jacobs and looking for the big fly there. I agree that we should have seen Jacobs bat in this game at some point.

Zvon Sep 07 2005 01:44 AM

I was waiting for the Met highlights on ESPN. I missed the game recap but did catch the play I was confused about earlier. (I really wasnt paying attention during the 2nd half of the game, trying to keep abreast by reading CBSsl while handling some thinks AFK.) Do I got this right? a check swing grounder to Pedro and Giles scores from 2nd? I remember just looking and reading ground out to pitcher, runner scores. Figured the guy was on 3rd. Damn............thats nasty. I didnt understand how that went down at the time. The runners were going, so he wasnt gonna get a conventional 2 there. No play at 3rd, I guess. And Pedros back was to Giles. Could Wright or the bench have yelled 3rd or home? I know it was bang-bang but...... Thats just beyond heads up running by Giles. I mean, that kind of thing just cannot be allowed to happen. Id like to see a more complete look at this play.

Rotblatt Sep 07 2005 09:54 AM

a check swing grounder to Pedro and Giles scores from 2nd? According to one of the daily rags, Ramon yelled something but Petey didn't hear him over the noise. Dougie was also pointing home, but Petey missed it. On the replay this morning, it looked to me like Petey really didn't expect it and was taking his time throwing over to first since Old Man River is so slow. Can't really blame him. That was a heads-up, ballsy play. If anyone's at fault, it's Ramon, whose job is to get Petey to go home there. Ramon also dropped the ball, so to speak, on the potential DP ball during Trach's game the other day--he should have been yelling at Trachs to let it drop. I don't mean to bust on Castro here, but he could probably be a little more take-charge.

Centerfield Sep 07 2005 10:13 AM

The Mets make me sad.

Frayed Knot Sep 07 2005 11:04 AM

What I'm not sure about on that play is whether Reyes was covering 3rd (as he should have been). If not then there would have been little for Pedro to do even if he did realize that Giles was coming except maybe freeze him and lose the out at 1st. Because Wright was charging the slow roller and had his back to the play, there was nothing stopping Giles from not makng his huge turn. If Reyes covers 3rd then a warning would have hung Giles out to dry but it's unclear whether Castro said anything. One of the announcers mentioned the other day that Willie (talking about some unrelated topic)thinks Castro isn't assertive enough at times and Trax claims that no word came from him on that bunt/pop-up the previous night.

Zvon Sep 07 2005 07:26 PM

got a better look at this. And it was pretty much just a ballsy heads up play by Giles. Wright did come in have his back to the play. If casrto did yell, well, thats one of the advantages of a home crowd. They make noise and I could understand him not being heard. Im reading nothing about this in the NY papers--- more about the DP blotched by Matsui when he didnt even make the throw. these excerpts are from CBSsl: ATLANTA -- John Smoltz knew the Atlanta Braves had the hit-and-run on when Marcus Giles took a big lead and broke from second base in the sixth inning. Staying out of a double play was important, so Smoltz figured his teammate would reach third easily when New York pitcher Pedro Martinez fielded Julio Franco's soft grounder. Instead, Smoltz was ecstatic to see Giles keep running and score standing up, the final run in the Braves' 3-1 victory over the Mets on Tuesday night. "That's a huge run for a pitcher," Smoltz said of the game's final run. "When you're battling, that run makes you feel like -- I wish hitters could appreciate what a pitcher feels like because that run's huge. He had it all the way. It was such a great play." With Giles on second and Chipper Jones on first in the sixth, Martinez (13-7) fielded Franco's grounder near the third base line and seemed to forget about Giles, who was running toward third. Giles had already rounded third when Martinez, who had his back turned to the runner, turned to throw out Franco. As soon as the ball left Martinez's hand, Giles scored easily. "Obviously a double play is not in order with the runners going, so as a defender you're thinking, 'Get the runner out,'" Giles said. "When the swinging bunt happened, I had it my mind that I was going home, hoping that Pedro didn't get alerted that I was going." Franco, who was credited with an RBI groundout, is slow enough that Martinez could have held Giles at third and still gotten the 47-year-old Atlanta first baseman out. "That really never happened to me before," Martinez said. "I learned something different. Franco was running, and I knew I had to try to get him. I looked at the replay and the coach never sent (Giles). He just ran like somebody was chasing him." Martinez pitched six innings, allowing five hits and three runs for New York, which has lost six of seven. "I never expected Giles to score like that," Martinez said. "We are facing a smart team. Obviously, they are on top of their game."

Frayed Knot Sep 07 2005 07:58 PM

From what I gathered from various print & radio snippets: - Giles suprised even his coach by blowing around 3rd, it's not like that was a set play - Reyes, as I suspected, did NOT rotate toward 3rd (acc to wwsb). That means all Pedro could have done is looked his way and hope that the glance would stop his charge because they was no way to throw behind him - Willie reiterated that Castro is sometimes not as assertive as he could be ... maybe from still having a backup's mentality Willie also said that Kaz claimed to have lost the handle on the ball on that potential GiDP

Zvon Sep 07 2005 08:09 PM

Frayed Knot wrote: - Willie reiterated that Castro is sometimes not as assertive as he could be ... maybe from still having a backup's mentality Willie also said that Kaz claimed to have lost the handle on the ball on that potential GiDP did Willie really say this about Castro to the media? Why dont managers consider talking directly to a player anymore and keep stuff like that private and in the clubhouse? Did he literally use the word 'claim' in re: to Matsui?

Frayed Knot Sep 07 2005 08:18 PM

]did Willie really say this about Castro to the media? Why dont managers consider talking directly to a player anymore and keep stuff like that private and in the clubhouse? Not really a big deal as far as I'm concerned. It's a minor tweak and he said he's talked to Castro about it in the past (as I mentioned in an earlier post this is not the first time I've heard it). Sometimes younger, less-established players are reluctant to act as if giving orders to older more-established types, even when it's called for. ]Did he literally use the word 'claim' in re: to Matsui? I'm paraphrasing. Willie didn't give any hint that he didn't believe Kazuo.

Zvon Sep 07 2005 08:37 PM

Frayed Knot wrote: ]did Willie really say this about Castro to the media? Why dont managers consider talking directly to a player anymore and keep stuff like that private and in the clubhouse? Not really a big deal as far as I'm concerned. It's a minor tweak and he said he's talked to Castro about it in the past (as I mentioned in an earlier post this is not the first time I've heard it). Sometimes younger, less-established players are reluctant to act as if giving orders to older more-established types, even when it's called for. yea, I can see this. I just cant STAND a manager who plays the media before the team, and I get snappy when I think Willie might have don that. Cripes, its a tuff gig to manage the Mets. Whoever you are. Any big market team these days. All those mics in your face, all lookin for a story or a way to spin one.

Elster88 Sep 08 2005 10:14 AM

]I just cant STAND a manager who plays the media before the team, Bill Parcells did this all the time, to great effect, with two different New York teams, if I'm understanding what you mean by "plays the media". I'm interpereting that as, being critical of a player in front of the media. Different sports, I realize, but I don't think there's anything wrong with it, if done correctly. _____________________________ This post had the designation 161) Johnny Lewis

MFS62 Sep 08 2005 10:29 AM

Edgy DC wrote: Mets are losing this game on defense. Not even bad defense, just defense not good enough to win, particularly for a bat-slumping team. On the pregame show, Willie lamented about the recent lack of offense, and said that the team would have to win with pitching and defense. But last night's starter is a sinkerball/ breaking ball pitcher. And we have seen that is the kind of pitcher against whom Jacobs has had good at bats. (He has had trouble with hard stuff up in the zone) I'm wondering why Willie didn't give Jake the start. It would have put him in a situation where he might succeed. Later