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Writing a column, need input!
| Mark Healey Aug 31 2005 06:06 PM |
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The back page version of Going Nine in Gotham Baseball Issue 2 is going to be a column on "Where have all the larger-than-life characters of NY Baseball gone?
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| Bret Sabermetric Aug 31 2005 06:14 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 01 2005 02:06 AM |
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Well, it's interesting that Wee Willie Small Balls says that he models his managing style on Bad Billy Big Balls yet barely says boo to the umpires, plays nicey-nice in the clubhouse (in Bouton's terms, "He wouldn't say shit if he had a mouthful"), and speaks MOR corporatespeak to the media at all times. In the baseball stuff, he keeps players in silly-sick rigid roles, whereas Billy was a wheeler-dealer, hunch manager. There is no resemblence whatsoever that I can see, yet fans' memories are so hazy that no one calls bullshit on WWSB when he says things like this that are 180 degrees from reality. Fans are amnesiac, lobotomized zombies who wouldn't know they're being lied to if it came with a bite on their asses.
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| metirish Aug 31 2005 08:53 PM |
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Bobby Valentine should be on this list, wouldn't that be a great dinner table, Bobby V,Billy Martin,Leo Durocher, Reggie Jackson and lets throw in Lenny Dykstra and Gary Carter, now that would be fun.
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| Rockin' Doc Aug 31 2005 09:52 PM |
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| Spacemans Bong Aug 31 2005 10:40 PM Re: Writing a column, need input! |
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| Valadius Sep 01 2005 07:54 AM |
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Good point.
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| Mark Healey Sep 01 2005 08:04 AM |
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Well, Pedro will be one of my "Wha' Happened?"
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| Mark Healey Sep 01 2005 08:05 AM |
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He will be
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| Elster88 Sep 01 2005 08:09 AM |
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So the only way someone can be a larger than life character is if they throw beanballs and start fights? This post was made under the posting designation 167) Braden Looper
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| Edgy DC Sep 01 2005 08:19 AM |
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Yeah, I'm wondering why "larger than life" tends to mean "jerk."
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| Elster88 Sep 01 2005 08:26 AM |
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It's the Jeff Pearlman syndrome.
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| Edgy DC Sep 01 2005 08:30 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 01 2005 10:51 AM |
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I appreciate all the new material in Jeff Pearlman's book. But the introduction and the setting of the story and his self-centered perspective were maddening.
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| Mark Healey Sep 01 2005 09:25 AM |
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Part of Pedro's makeup and what makes him great is his willingness to dominate the inside part of the plate. He's not doing that here. I'm wondering why that is.
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| metirish Sep 01 2005 09:48 AM |
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Now you know that's not true, why would they do that?, Pedro doesn't throw 98 anymore so maybe that's why he doesn't pitch inside like he used too,he's more of a control pitcher these days.I don't think the change to the NL has made him rethink things, I really doubt Pedro is afraid to hit guys, when he needed to hit Luis Gonzalez he did. some classic Bobby.. 
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| Willets Point Sep 01 2005 09:50 AM |
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On the other hand players/managers that make asses of themselves all the time can get tiresome. Sometimes it's fun enough to watch talent players play the game of baseball.
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| Elster88 Sep 01 2005 09:55 AM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Sep 01 2005 10:00 AM |
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I guess some people get bored watching the game and need to watch a player make an ass of himself. I mean for who would think that Pedro has lost some of his aura because he doesn't throw beanballs or come inside? (Especially a week after he threw hit Gonzo, as metirish pointed out.) Have you watched the guy pitch this year? Can you appreciate his performance without using him as a reason to lament the lack of players who fight with umpires? Edited for needless rudeness.
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| OlerudOwned Sep 01 2005 09:57 AM |
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| metirish Sep 01 2005 09:59 AM |
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Some classic Gay-Rod, now this fella is a character.
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| Edgy DC Sep 01 2005 10:53 AM |
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That's a really out-there stretch of speculation, don't you think?
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| Rotblatt Sep 01 2005 11:02 AM |
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If anything, they probably WANT him to throw at people. Bad boys get a lot of press, and that puts butts in the seats.
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| Mark Healey Sep 01 2005 11:18 AM |
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Why must every communication with you guys be adversarial?
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| Willets Point Sep 01 2005 11:22 AM |
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Dude, who's being adverserial? We're just offering input as you asked. If you don't like the input because it doesn't jibe with your thesis, don't use that material.
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| G-Fafif Sep 01 2005 11:22 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 01 2005 11:28 AM |
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Today's great New York ballplayers are thoroughly demystifed by exposure. Jeter, A-Rod and Piazza are/were covered relentlessly so there's nothing left to wonder about. Piazza at least gives honest (as far as we can tell) quotes but they're about politics and heavy metal. It's just not the same as in those halcyon days. Those other guys are programmed by their PR people to not say too much and in general none of them wants to be bothered. And what ballplayer spends his evenings at a Toots Shor's type establishment and is lionized for it? Who has his own chronicler the way DiMaggio had Jimmy Cannon?
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| PatchyFogg Sep 01 2005 11:23 AM |
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How about a catcher that pleaded No Contest to a Sexual Assault charge? Oh wait, he's still on the team.
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| Edgy DC Sep 01 2005 11:34 AM |
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I'm sure he can fill in the void by driving his car off a steep ridge on a Christmas night killing himself and almost taking someone with him. I'm only partly kidding. I think we're all just over-glorifying the past a little bit. The Yankees of today have a publicist as a go-between 'twixt the players and the fans. DiMaggio had a personal chronicler. Not much different to my thinking. Billly Martin was fine manager. I don't miss his personality and I imagine if he was your manager today you wouldn't be getting down on your knees thanking God for it.
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| Frayed Knot Sep 01 2005 11:35 AM |
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Except that no one is calling Castro "colorful" or "a character" because of his actions.
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| Edgy DC Sep 01 2005 11:37 AM |
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I miss King Kelly.
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| Elster88 Sep 01 2005 11:39 AM |
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My post could be seen as adversarial. I'm slightly embarrassed, though I stand by my remarks.
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| Frayed Knot Sep 01 2005 11:50 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 01 2005 11:58 AM |
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As a general answer to your original question, I'm not so sure this era is all that unique or diminished. By comparing whatever's going on today with everyone from Durocher & Stengel through Darryl & Bobby V., what you're essentially saying is that there were more great characters over half-a-century in NYC than there are at this very moment. Looked at that way it's not surprising that this moment in time - or any moment for that matter - won't measure up to the examples you'll find over such a long span. Fans who try to make the argument that there used to be more great players or hard throwers, or whatever way back when have the benefit of the same bias. Remember also that NYC used to have nearly 20% of ML players (3 teams of 16) rather than the under 7% (2 of 30) they have now.
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| G-Fafif Sep 01 2005 11:58 AM |
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Interesting point. DiMaggio, however, was from an age when the press was cooperative and complicit in building legends. After Dick Young, the tone changed. The players need PR people because the modern media is, at least in theory, more confrontational. It's more heat than light in my opinion, and there are surely columnists and broadcasters who are capable of kissing up to certain players but it's just a different world. Maybe there is no more "larger than life" because thanks to instantaneous communications, everything is delivered lifesized.
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| ScarletKnight41 Sep 01 2005 12:39 PM |
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Maybe the earlier era seems larger than life because we were so much smaller then.
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| Johnny Dickshot Sep 01 2005 01:16 PM |
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Dead, dead, dead, Steinbrenner's pants, rehab. Seriously, as mentioned above, this is 50+ years of characters vs. one moment; and in the case of Pedro, 13 years vs. 6 months. I don't believe Fred Wilpon instructs players as to how to apply game strategy and they wouldn't listen to him if he did. And just because a player comes to NYC and doesn't start a brawl doesn't mean coming coming to NYC CAUSED the player not to start a brawl. I think it's pretty wobbly theory overall. I agree that increased & more aggressive demands by all kinds of media; a perceived need to protect images for purposes of better salaries/more lucrative endorsements; the trend toward marketing individuals to sell teams and leagues; and the stratospheric disparity in tax brackets between athletes and fans have all worked some toward giving guys an intere$t in not rocking ther boat. So many who do are rarely loved for it (Dennis Rodman) and others are dismissed as flakes (Turk Wendell). Still I'm pretty sure you could make a case for strong baseball personalities this century in NY just starting with Valentine, Pedro, Sheffield, Wendell, Leiter and Mister Koo.
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| Willets Point Sep 01 2005 01:19 PM |
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And Shinjo. He was a character.
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| Elster88 Sep 01 2005 01:19 PM |
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That's not what he wants for his column though. He wants
and he wants players who are
_____________________________ This post was made under the designation 166) Pete Schourek
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| Johnny Dickshot Sep 01 2005 01:30 PM |
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Well, I think Sheffield is the genuine article when it comes to paranoid, selfish, menacing pricks. Focus on him!
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| Mark Healey Sep 01 2005 02:43 PM |
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Actually, that's exactly what I want, an opposing viewpoint that's stated as well as JD did... JD if you'd like me to quote you, please email me at heals9@yahoo.com
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| KC Sep 01 2005 03:04 PM |
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>>>Why must every communication with you guys be adversarial?<<<
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| Centerfield Sep 01 2005 03:12 PM |
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What's amazing is that we're being accused of being adversarial and Ralph and I hadn't even posted yet.
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| Valadius Sep 01 2005 04:33 PM |
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Let's see... Randy Johnson had his run-in with the cameraman. Gary Sheffield claimed he knew who the leader was. We've had our share of potheads (Mark Corey, Grant Roberts) and drunks (David Wells) in New York. There have been crybabies (Jeff Weaver, Kevin Brown) and prima donnas (Roberto Alomar, Rickey Henderson, Pedro Martinez). Rey Ordonez was shipped out of here for dissing New York, just as Danny Graves arrived here for flipping off Cincinnati. There are a lot of larger-than-life characters in New York baseball... but this is New York, the city that never sleeps, and so they might just get drowned out by the sheer amount of news that comes out of this city.
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| Edgy DC Sep 01 2005 04:41 PM |
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Could anybody have a more bizzarre reputation than Armando Benitez?
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| PatchyFogg Sep 01 2005 11:05 PM |
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Cleon Jones?
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| Mark Healey Sep 04 2005 12:27 AM |
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My introduction to this board was being called a disgraceful asshole, so forgive me if I came here with a tad of a chip on my shoulder. Secondly, when I have a guest in my house, even if he is a bit rude and full of himself, I wait until he hits on my sister before I jump on his butt.
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| Bret Sabermetric Sep 04 2005 03:13 AM |
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OK, forgiven. But if you knew you came here with a chip on your shoulder, why all the amazement that your presence here met with some flak? I just read your first few posts (I was fishing in Colorado and off the 'net during your intro to this board) and yeah, you got a going over here, but not entirely undeserved either. Personally, I'm kind of sensitive to internet mags, especially those that allow reporters to use pseudonyms, claiming that they're "journalists," with all the privileges that attach thereto. The reason real magazines and newspapers can use anonymous sources (and in my view, they can honorably do so) is that they have an overall reputation that sticks with them. Bob Klapisch can use an anonymous source because if it makes him look stupid in retrospect to have relied on one, then ultimately it's his reputation on the line, and that of his paper, so he tries to resist writing stupid shit indiscriminatingly. Doesn't always succeed, but he tries. But guys like you, if you make idiots of yourselves, just fold your tents and start again if you like with an unblemished reputation.You need to EARN your credibility with a portfolio of solid, reputable work, but you just skip that inconvenient stage and go straight to publishing unsourced crapola, and then disclaiming responsibility for having written what you did. Very weak. As to internet sites like this, we don't claim to be reporters. We're the virtual equivalent of guys bulllshitting in a bar, with all the privileges pertaining thereto (i.e., none.) As Edgy says, sometimes crap gets written here. We don't claim otherwise. If that's your standard, then proclaim on your virtual banner: "We report stuff that isn't accurate, and we stand by none of it" so your readers know what to expect. Edgy and I differ, btw, on the crap that gets posted on this site (I'm the major supplier of crap, from his perspective.) My view is: no harm, no foul, no one expects us to have any inside sources on our speculations, so if we speculate, and it's clear enough that we're just voicing our opinions, that should be cool. His view, I think, is that we shouldnt say much of anything unless we're pretty confidfent that it's factually accurate (or is so pro-Mets that its failures can be dismissed as "unbridled enthusiasm"). But neither of us claims a reportorial function for the posts here. You do (in your magazine) and you got busted when you failed to meet that standard. Deal with that, please, and don't come bitching to us for busting you. Oh, and I thought Dickshot was exceptionally kind to you in holding out the olive branch of mea culpa that he did.
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| KC Sep 04 2005 07:13 AM |
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>>>My introduction to this board was being called a disgraceful asshole, so forgive me if I came here with a tad of a chip on my shoulder.<<<
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| Mark Healey Sep 04 2005 02:28 PM |
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What the hell are you talking about? We have a real magazine, I'll send you a copy if you'd like. As to calling myself a journalist, I've been a sportswriter for a decade and have written for several publications and have been published nationally. No one at GB uses a psudeonym, and several have been published. all are professionals. You may not agree with what we write, but don't misunderstand what we write or who we are.
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| Bret Sabermetric Sep 05 2005 04:31 AM |
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Sometimes, I wonder myself. I got the impression you ran an internet publication, and that you allowed your reporters to use pseudonyms (probably from reading Dickshot's criticism of some obviously invented name being replaced by "guest"--what was that about?), but hadn't done my own reading of your actual product. Sorry. I got into "rant" mode at that point--if I misstated your situation, I had no cause to do that.
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| PatchyFogg Sep 05 2005 02:33 PM |
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I can attest to the magazine being a quality publication, as I am a paying subscriber. But, in the interest of full disclosure, I must admit that I was hooked in by the "Buy a Mag, Get To Hit on Healey's Sister" promotion that they were running a few months back.
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| Mark Healey Sep 06 2005 07:55 AM |
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Ahhh, Patchy...that was a sweet win over the Pitt, no? :D
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| Mark Healey Sep 06 2005 09:04 AM |
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Not a problem at all...miscommunication on the internet is par for the course, and the last thing any of us should do is to hold a grudge because of it. As far as what JD was referring to, there was a website I used to write for, and he was illustrating a point by using a thread which was related to a story I wrote. To fully explain: In the published story "Mets, Alou agree to deal" = I reported Mets, Alou agreed in principle, not signed, not official, but it was written poorly, as it stated "NYFS was informed of the signing by Mark Healey". I said no such thing. The person in question apologized, but for some reason, the story was never changed. I also never outed the person that made the mistake, and will never do so. But what would you do if every time you reported a story, you heard "And Alou is A Met, right? It gets tiresome, especially when I've been accurate far more than I've been not so. What Dickshot was refferring to is in the thread that was linked to the story. In the thread, I said "it's a done deal",to another poster, which obviously, in retrospect, was a poor choice of words. I was told Omar was telling his F.O. people, "it's done", without (either of us) knowing that Alou was taking his offered deal by the Mets to a get a guarranteed second year (player option as opposed to the vested option the Mets offered). My username at that website and every website was "heals9", as it has been for the several years or so I've been on the 'Net. It says Guest now because NYFS removed my name from the mermeberlist,. at MY request, not theirs, But not for why you think. A year ago a day before last year's trade deadline, I was a story for the web partner of Inside Pitch magazine (which was then MIP), called "Who's Running The Show?"; (I no longer work for MIP, so posting this year isn't spam, just trying to explain) [url]http://mets.scout.com/2/278781.html[/url] As you can well imagine, it caused quite a stir, and annoyed Mets ownership to no end. They requested the story be taken off the site. When Scout.com asked why, "Is the story factual?", they were told "Yes, but it makes the organization look bad." Needless to say, Scout.com backed me up fully and the story still remains to this day. However, as it raised my public profile considerably, I was told by my current employers to "lay low for awhile on the websites", hence the removal of the username "heals9" which was done almost immediately from NYFS. Yes, it remains on other sites, but I posted very sparsely on those, so I didn't feel it was necessary. Hence the reason why "Guest" is now in place of heals9 in that thread and other threads...I have always remained Mark Healey as a reporter and have never used an alias. As a poster, yes, as many of you do, I had several personas on NYS, I became the Flash, and Red Foreman as well. All of those name changes were done with permission and active involvement by the NYFS staff, as they felt my presence on the boards was valuable. Their words not mine. I really didn't want to get fired from job, however, so I kept feeding whatever information I received as a reporter to the fan boards, because I felt it was my responsibility to do so. I still do, without a persona mind you, which is why I guess I get very defensive when people accuse me of "trying to drive up business"; A.) Gotham does not charge for ANY content on the web...in fact, wherever I have worked previously, I have demanded that my work be free for all readers. B.) My reputation and the reputation of any organization I work for -- and especially now, a product(s) I own -- is far more important than any "buzz" that can be generated by reporting ed flimsy rumors. Do I think trading for Jamie Moyer was a good idea? God. no. But if I am told by reliable people that it's being discussed, isn't it my duty to report, even if I know by doing so, that fans are going to go bananas? I apologize for the length of this post, but I felt it was necessary to set whatever misconceptions still are out there, straight. Hopefully, we're all past that now. :D Later that season
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| Bret Sabermetric Sep 06 2005 10:01 AM |
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Thanks for all the detail.
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| metirish Sep 06 2005 10:32 AM |
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Mr.Healey could be onto something here..
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| Rockin' Doc Sep 06 2005 02:59 PM |
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metirish - "Mr.Healey could be onto something here."
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