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WE WANT BOBBY V

Nymr83 Sep 03 2005 07:35 PM

only 1 guy that has managed this team in the last 10 years has had a managerial brain in his head, the great Bobby V. Art Howe and now Willie Randolph have shown a total inability to manage a major league baseball team... your bullshit might fly in the AL where you can fall asleep at the wheel but not here. Get Valentine back, i don't care what you have to pay to get him out of his contract.

Elster88 Sep 03 2005 07:38 PM

Too bad he'll be coaching the Yankees next year. Savvy move by Cashman or whoever the fuck convincing Torre to put up with George III's bullshit until Willie got cleared, lol. _____________________________ This post was under the designation 165) Jose Reyes

Zvon Sep 03 2005 08:23 PM

Bobby V wasnt the best manager when it came to using pitchers himself. How soon we forget. Nah, like Elster said, this team was far from a shoe in for a playoff spot, and ya have to give Willie afew years to see what he's all about. Just like when i heard Omar was takin the helm as GM. My 1st thought was we will be in the World Series again, for sure, within the next 3/4 years. After getting Martinez, I figure 3 for sure, cuz you cant expect him to be as effective as he can be after 3 more years. Some may look at this Mets season and scream TEASE! I look at it and say this is the beginning of something good.

Nymr83 Sep 03 2005 08:47 PM

Bobby v was the man. i never had a long-term problem with his bullpen management, though every manager has bad games

DocTee Sep 03 2005 09:51 PM

]ya have to give Willie afew years to see what he's all about. Bullshit. That's the same type of thinking that causes WWSB to underuse Heilman ("let's see him work in low-pressure situations") and stick with under-performers like Cairo.("4-for-48?-- Lets give him a few more ABs to see if he can't get it together") Bullshit... That being said, I dunno why Rick Peterson is getting off scot-free here...doesn't he manage the staff?

Edgy DC Sep 03 2005 10:05 PM

I think we should use bullshit sparingly. Heilman is interesting. His sttuff seems really nice, and he and Benson both seemed to have benefirtted from Pedro's orbit and used the change very effectively. But he also seems to work too fine --- losing guys he's up on and getting behind peeps with two outs --- pitching himself (or his successor) into trouble. The persistence of Cairo drives me nutters. Long past is the small sadistic pleasure I derived from the disappointment of Met fans who ripped Matsui and Demanded Miguel. I think we need to get used of the idea that Randolph is going to serve two years minimum, on the notion that a manager gets one year to see what he's got, and another year to show what he can do with it. One guess is that's what he was doing in the seventh --- seeing what he's got. I'd rather he acted like he was in a playoff race, too. And that's just a guess. More likely he's indeed got a mental book that says to try to save Hernandez for the eighth.

metirish Sep 03 2005 10:17 PM

Here is Willie's thinking when he brought in Takatsu to face Cabrera , the numbers that made him role the dice.. Roberto Hernandez (7-for-12, three HRs), Heath Bell (3-for-5) or Aaron Heilman (5-for-15) , this form Willie. ]"I felt like giving him a little twist," Randolph said. "A guy with a little funk might be able to get him off guard." I guees he rolled the dice and got beat, tough to see the new guy in that spot, I wanted Hernandez, even knowing the numbers now I would still want Bert, you should lose with your best I think. Some interesting quotes in this article form players.. http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/mets/ny-spmets0904,0,3935782.story?coll=ny-sports-headlines

Spacemans Bong Sep 03 2005 10:48 PM

Season's over. :cry:

SI Metman Sep 03 2005 11:31 PM

My problem with Bobby V though is he lost it at the end and had no control over the clubhouse. I don't want him to be a Pinella in Tampa situation or Bowa in Philly. I still view this season as 1984. Not our year, but close with the young talent growing and the pieces being added. If Omar can acquire Gary Carter in the offseason, then we are set.

SI Metman Sep 03 2005 11:44 PM

Oh, and one more thing to remember - Bobby V means no Glavine or Floyd. In other words, this team is probably 10 games worse.

Nymr83 Sep 04 2005 07:35 AM

]My problem with Bobby V though is he lost it at the end and had no control over the clubhouse I don't think this is that kind of clubhouse anymore. Gone are Rickey, Franco, Leiter, Vaughn, Benitez etc. Wright, Reyes, Beltran, and crew are not going to be a clubhouse problem no matter who manages. ]Oh, and one more thing to remember - Bobby V means no Glavine or Floyd. In other words, this team is probably 10 games worse If Glavine retired tommorow the Mets would be no worse...theyhave 5 other starters as good or better than he is. As for Floyd...well he wouldn't make a 10 game diference over an "average" left fielder...probably more like 3 or 4. Thats assuming he stays healthy next year which is hard to be optimistic about with his history.

Rotblatt Sep 04 2005 07:53 AM

="Edgy DC"]I think we should use bullshit sparingly. Heilman is interesting. His sttuff seems really nice, and he and Benson both seemed to have benefirtted from Pedro's orbit and used the change very effectively. But he also seems to work too fine --- losing guys he's up on and getting behind peeps with two outs --- pitching himself (or his successor) into trouble.. Heilman has been our best reliever all season. It's pretty much indisputable once you look at the stats.

Bret Sabermetric Sep 04 2005 08:07 AM

Nymr83 wrote: [...probably more like 3 or 4. More like 2. Best case scenario, Cliff's worth about a 6-4 season where the average LFer's 5-5. To make him 7-3 is to crown him MVP or close to it.

Nymr83 Sep 04 2005 08:26 AM

ok, 2 it is. that only helps make my point.

Bret Sabermetric Sep 04 2005 09:44 AM

="Edgy DC"]I think we should use bullshit sparingly. It's lines like this that irritate me. If it's your opinion that we should all do this or that, then just do this or that yourself. Why invalidate others' ponts of view with a holier-than-thou "THIS IS HOW I WANT YOUR POSTS TO READ" pronouncement. You disagree with DocTee's position that WWSB's use of Heilman is bullshit? Fine. Dispute that point. Or is it that you prefer calling things you disagree with "nonsense" or "specious," eschewing the vulgarity of "bullshit"? Fine. Whatever. Then use those terms yourself, and let DocTee say what he wants how he wants to say it. I realize there's an ironic element in my telling Edgy that his posting style sucks because of how he tells people their posting style sucks. No need to make that point. I acknowledge it.

Elster88 Sep 04 2005 11:22 AM

I'd agree with Edgy. By saying "bullshit", you're basically saying the other person's point is meaningless and has no merit whatsoever. Seems overly rude to me, and the kind of line you'd hear in other fora. If you disagree with someone just say so, no need to get all dramatic. To me, DocTee's post wasn't saying that WWSB's use of Heilman was bullshit, he was saying Zvon's post was bullshit. Why say that, instead of disputing his point in the same way you challenge Edgy to dispute his point? Why not keep it civilized? Or am I being an oversensitive weenie? _____________________________ This post was under the designation 165) Jose Reyes

DocTee Sep 04 2005 11:55 AM

My apologies to Zvon or anyone else who was (or may have been) offended by my choice of words-- my intent was not to disparage any poster, only to express my displeasure with an overly complacent "wait till next year approach" on the part of both WWSB and some forum apologists.

Bret Sabermetric Sep 04 2005 12:45 PM

Apologies for misunderstanding DocTee's point. Mine was that Edgy doesn't really want us never to dispute points rudely. He tosses provocative words like "nonsense" around word pretty freely (at least he did when he was acknowedgling my presence here) and took no real trouble to see that he was being gentle, kind, patient, or thorough in understanding points he considered nonsensical whenever he was feeling frisky and disputatious. I find it hypocritical in the extreme to read these schoolmarmish admonitions about decorum, collegial language and scholarly manners being distributed with noblesse oblige from on high.

Elster88 Sep 04 2005 02:07 PM

DocTee wrote: My apologies to Zvon or anyone else who was (or may have been) offended by my choice of words-- my intent was not to disparage any poster, only to express my displeasure with an overly complacent "wait till next year approach" on the part of both WWSB and some forum apologists. I should apologize too for misreading your post.

Elster88 Sep 04 2005 02:08 PM

Bret Sabermetric wrote: Apologies for misunderstanding DocTee's point. Mine was that Edgy doesn't really want us never to dispute points rudely. He tosses provocative words like "nonsense" around word pretty freely (at least he did when he was acknowedgling my presence here) and took no real trouble to see that he was being gentle, kind, patient, or thorough in understanding points he considered nonsensical whenever he was feeling frisky and disputatious. I find it hypocritical in the extreme to read these schoolmarmish admonitions about decorum, collegial language and scholarly manners being distributed with noblesse oblige from on high. Seriously, I'm not one who should be critical over other's language. Sometimes I try to take a moral high ground when I really belong down in the sewers of morality. Or something.

Zvon Sep 05 2005 12:22 PM

DocTee wrote: My apologies to Zvon or anyone else who was (or may have been) offended by my choice of words-- my intent was not to disparage any poster, only to express my displeasure with an overly complacent "wait till next year approach" on the part of both WWSB and some forum apologists. no need to apologize to me. I dont expect all to agree with me and I welcome the other perspectives. I dont mind the language or the attitude. Thats you....this is me. If everyone just kissed each others ass here the place would be rather boring, DoNtChAtHiNk? And the season aint over until Oct, Fret Spoogylooger, no matter where the Mets may be in the race. I get to see Reyes and Wright doin there thing for 30 more days, tHaNkYoUvErYmUcH :)

Zvon Sep 05 2005 12:31 PM

Zvon wrote: I get to see Reyes and Wright doin there thing for 30 more days, tHaNkYoUvErYmUcH :) at least 30 days, maybe longer......muuuuuuuuhahahaHAHAHAHAH

KC Sep 05 2005 01:10 PM

I don't read Edge's response as a schoolmarmish mandate or anything. That cross just gets bigger everyday and must be difficult to bear. I mean if your looking for something to twist your way you could do it in everything that's written here. And if we're going to talk bullshit, this forum has been overly critical (if anything) about just about everything Willie Randolph, so to label people forum apologists is prolly going on some old pre-conceived notions. I also don't think that Willie has been overly complacent or has a wait until next year approach. Whole lotta bullshit in this thread. Yup ©

DocTee Sep 05 2005 02:03 PM

] I also don't think that Willie has been overly complacent I beg to differ-- and I'm not alone. How many times have we heard pleas that Willie get run from a game, if only to inspire his charges. But maybe this only supports your claim that the CPF is overly critical of Randolph.

KC Sep 05 2005 02:14 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 05 2005 03:21 PM

Getting thrown out of a baseball game is not inspirational. If ya need to go out and protect a player or stand up for a bad call that's different. But just to show some fire in the belly? Dugout demeanor is like so low on the chart of what we could complain about with regard to Willie that it's almost not worth wasting keystrokes on. Funny how if the Mets were ten games over five hundred, you'd hear people saying his demeanor is noble - you can't tell if the team is up or down. When you're losing, you have no fire. My bullshit detector is beeping.

Elster88 Sep 05 2005 02:17 PM

DocTee wrote: ] I also don't think that Willie has been overly complacent I beg to differ-- and I'm not alone. How many times have we heard pleas that Willie get run from a game, if only to inspire his charges. But maybe this only supports your claim that the CPF is overly critical of Randolph. I think this is silly. All of the players have busted their ass all year long, they don't need to be inspired by the manager getting ejected. _____________________________ This post was under the designation 164) Keith Miller

DocTee Sep 05 2005 02:18 PM

]Dughut demeanor is like so low on the chart of what we could complain about with regard to Willie that it's almost not worth wasting keystrokes on. So there are many other things about WWSB that irk you? I thought you said we were being too critical of the man? beep beep beep

KC Sep 05 2005 02:27 PM

Let's not get all dramatic here. All I meant was that you made it sound like there are forum apologists here rushing to Willie's bed side while (if anything) there's no one here doing that at all. Apologist is an old and overused word on the Mets' internet scene.

Zvon Sep 05 2005 02:39 PM

ill say this. iread this week that Willie doesnt keep track of what team he's playing to far down the line. He said he doesnt look that far ahead .This is okay in April, May,June<july,and August. Its inexcusable and unnacceptable in Sept if you are in the hunt. Even WE know how the schedule pans out series for series thru this month. He said now he has his wife quizzing him to make him more aware. Thats some happy crappy. On having Shingo pitch the other day, he sai he didnt regret using him, but regrets that he threw a fastball 2-1 and didnt "throw the funk". he said pallia could have easily thrown a fastball there and that Shingo shouldnt have. THEN GET WORD TO SHINGO BEFORE HE THROWS THE PITCH TO THROW THE FUNK! If thats what he's there to do, tell him. You the freakin manager. You can dictate what is thrown if you wish to. This is September, and the mets must have defined roles, especially rotation wise, so players know what they have to do and can concentrate on that. Its not a time to be playing musical chairs with the rotation or the pen. You have your starters, your middle men, your setup guy, and your closer. For good or bad, define those roles. Now dont get me wrong. im not jumping on the bandwagon here. I still think Willie gets his 3 yrs at the helm. Im not calling for his head. Im calling on him to use his head.

DocTee Sep 05 2005 02:51 PM

]Im not calling for his head. Im calling on him to use his head. Hear, hear. (or is it, "here, here"?) Anyway, I agree-- Memo to Willie: keep Cairo nailed to the bench, use your pitchers wisely and keep up the aggressiveness on the basepaths

Elster88 Sep 05 2005 03:09 PM

What is the funk? How many of you who are demanding that Cairo stays nailed to the bench are the same as those who were demanding Kaz stayed nailed to the bench a couple of months ago? Be honest, now. _____________________________ This post was under the designation 164) Keith Miller

Spacemans Bong Sep 05 2005 03:13 PM

Elster88 wrote: What is the funk? How many of you who are demanding that Cairo stays nailed to the bench are the same as those who were demanding Kaz stayed nailed to the bench a couple of months ago? Be honest, now. _____________________________ This post was under the designation 164) Keith Miller What's your point? Kaz was not hitting then. Cairo is not hitting now.

Bret Sabermetric Sep 05 2005 03:26 PM

KC wrote: I don't read Edge's response as a schoolmarmish mandate or anything. ....Whole lotta bullshit in this thread. Yup © I really didn't expect you would. But my point is that he runs around wagging his schoolmarmish fingers at posters, when it's safe, who violate his notion of proper forum etiquette, but when you tell me how annoyingly full of BS I am, which you do about five times a week, so often in fact I've come think that my initials are BS, well, he's strangely tolerant of rudeness and undecorous colloquy. It's not just me, so don't give me the full five-paragraph-treatment on my supposed martyrdom (I couldn't care less if people think I'm full of shit--that's often the conclusion I eventually reach). But you and Dickshot and Frayed Knot and others, bless you, are hilariously and creatively rude all the time, and he doesn't wag his fucking fingers in your faces. When you're selective like he is, you're more of a hypocrite than you are a schoolmarm. So I apologize to schoolmarms everywhere.

Elster88 Sep 05 2005 03:46 PM

Spacemans Bong wrote: ="Elster88"]What is the funk? How many of you who are demanding that Cairo stays nailed to the bench are the same as those who were demanding Kaz stayed nailed to the bench a couple of months ago? Be honest, now. _____________________________ This post was under the designation 164) Keith Miller What's your point? Kaz was not hitting then. Cairo is not hitting now. From your response, I'm guessing that you were one of those. What's my point? I'm just curious who was demanding and was pissed off at Willie, and then was demanding and pissed off at Willie about exactly the opposite. My point should be self-explanatory. And someone please explain what the funk is. I remember the Funk from an old, hilarious Vince Carter commerical, but I don't think that's what Willie was referring to. _____________________________ This post was under the designation 164) Keith Miller

Frayed Knot Sep 05 2005 04:01 PM

'Funk' is this case is/was Taguchi's slower than slow changeup which is the "different look" that made him Willie's choice to pitch there in the first place. His fastball - the one that Cabrera hit - is nothing special. Problem was that he had missed with his previous change or two and got behind. So I guess Willie wanted Taguchi to bring on da funk but not bring in da noise.

KC Sep 05 2005 04:03 PM

Supposed martyrdom? You're the poster child for martyrdom. Cursing has never been an issue on this forum and everyone can curse freely. So, it wasn't a call for decorum check ... you turned it into one. With all this schoolmarm waggin' talk, Edgy's gay icon status is going to soar through the roof.

Bret Sabermetric Sep 05 2005 05:17 PM

KC wrote: Supposed martyrdom? You're the poster child for martyrdom. Only because you've made me into one, instead of dealing with the content of my posts. KC wrote: . Cursing has never been an issue on this forum and everyone can curse freely. So, it wasn't a call for decorum check ... you turned it into one. Wrong again. "Decorum" doesn't equal "not cursing." As I understood it, and I think I did understand it, he was telling DocTee that we don't speak to each other rudely and pre-emptorily around here. My point was that Yeah, sometimes, we do, so don't be going all Little Miss Manners on our asses whenever you've got menstrual cramps.

Edgy DC Sep 05 2005 05:21 PM

Next time Shingo takes the mound, the Shea faithful (or the Fea Shaithful) rise as one and say: Oh, we want the funk! Give up the funk! Ow, we need the funk! We gotta have that funk!

Zvon Sep 05 2005 06:33 PM

Edgy DC wrote: Next time Shingo takes the mound, the Shea faithful (or the Fea Shaithful) rise as one and say: Oh, we want the funk! Give up the funk! Ow, we need the funk! We gotta have that funk! lmao really edge. That would be perfect. Too perfect. Yea, by funk Willie meant his off speed funky pitch. And if Shingo did get behind, and was left to make his own call on what he felt he was more confident throwing there, then Willie really should keep such comments to himself. Cuz both ways you cut it, it doesnt reflect well on him. But being a manager aint the same as being a coach, and past Yankee accomplishments hold no sway over what he is going thru now.

Bret Sabermetric Sep 05 2005 07:33 PM

Zvon wrote: But being a manager aint the same as being a coach, and past Yankee accomplishments hold no sway over what he is going thru now. Did you notice how, in the Eunuch's pregame show on Sunday, Willie kept referring the the Marlins' closer as "Doug" Jones? I don't know if he THINKS it's the early nineties and Cleveland's still on the schedule, or if this is just another sign of his mental limitations,

Nymr83 Sep 05 2005 07:50 PM

]What's my point? I'm just curious who was demanding and was pissed off at Willie, and then was demanding and pissed off at Willie about exactly the opposite. My point should be self-explanatory that not true. calling for the opposite would mean calling for more of Matsui...I'm doing nothing of the sort....Matsui proved he can't hit so i called for Cairo (who at the time was a better option than our injured minor leaguers plus hernandez had just switched from ss and needed to learn a position) now that Cairo has shown he cant hit either i am calling for someone else. theres nothing wrong with my position i dont think, i want htem to keep turning the 2b job over to someone else until someone comes along who gets the job done.

Elster88 Sep 05 2005 09:36 PM

]Matsui proved he can't hit Is this what he proved last year when he hit over .270 and was on a pace to hit 40 or so doubles over 150 games until his injury? Or did he prove it in the half of a year that he played this year? Or maybe he never did and it's a knee-jerk reaction to kick him to the curb and play a guy who has hit well in the minors? How did that work out for Jacobs after his initial spurt? Why is the grass always greener in the minors?

Elster88 Sep 05 2005 09:40 PM

Bret Sabermetric wrote: ="Zvon"]But being a manager aint the same as being a coach, and past Yankee accomplishments hold no sway over what he is going thru now. Did you notice how, in the Eunuch's pregame show on Sunday, Willie kept referring the the Marlins' closer as "Doug" Jones? I don't know if he THINKS it's the early nineties and Cleveland's still on the schedule, or if this is just another sign of his mental limitations, I try not to get too hung up when someone attaches the wrong first name to a last name, especially when it's a common name like Jones. If he knows their closer's name is Jones and the kind of stuff he has, that's all I care about. I can't believe how much defending of Willie I'm doing, but when I hear him getting bashed for screwing up a guy's first name and getting blamed for singlehandedly keeping the Mets out of the playoffs, then I try to defend him. _____________________________ This post was under the designation 163) Charlie Neal

Zvon Sep 05 2005 10:37 PM

Bret Sabermetric wrote: ="Zvon"]But being a manager aint the same as being a coach, and past Yankee accomplishments hold no sway over what he is going thru now. Did you notice how, in the Eunuch's pregame show on Sunday, Willie kept referring the the Marlins' closer as "Doug" Jones? I don't know if he THINKS it's the early nineties and Cleveland's still on the schedule, or if this is just another sign of his mental limitations, lol.I missed Sundays game, and didnt catch that. So he cant keep up with the Jones's....... (I used that joke like 4 times 2day,hehe) As long as I dont ever get the impression that Randolf isnt as sharp as Ralph Kiner in his primo drinking days, Ill let that kinda thing slide. Like if he cant come up with Loopers 1st name, Id have a problem. As long as he's at least that familiar with his team. I meant to add more under that statement that you quoted, and I got a phonecall and just hit submit and left. That was an unfinished thought..... Figured youd quote just that, bret,lol. I was gonna add afew things but my train of thought seems to have stopped at the last station. Something like how Willie seems to have this belief in karma thing goin. Now I really have a firm belief that baseball is the game most ruled by luck. Its the game where karma finds its greater course. But ITS SEPTEMBER, dagnabbitt. And the Mets have a chance, albiet far out, to get the wild card. So give luck and karma a lil help by usin your noggin. By using what you have to its full potential, even if that potential ends up falling short of the goal. And dont do it whimsically. Do it with care. Dont say "Hey, Pennant race, big game, big situation, I think we should give Shingo a try out there........hope he throws the funk." Its September........MAKE IT HAPPEN.

Zvon Sep 05 2005 11:06 PM

What im sayin is I think Randolf can be a great manager. I want him to be a great and VERY successful Met manager. All he has to do is show me. Im not asking for the WC,even. Im asking him to put the Mets in the best position to have their best chance to get there. Tomorrow Ill hear how "Trachsel wanted to stay in there and I wanted to show him confidence and help his confidence so.........."(<if this is Petersons call, then still, bad. Buck stops with Willie) Whatever confidence the Mets have at this point, thats what they are gonna have to settle for,lol. You cant play the game in September like you do all season if you are in a pennant race. And one of the closest and hottest and best WC races up to now. Five teams are within 3 games of one another. Id at least like to see the Mets hang and make the final week more exciting and ulcer inducing. Let me put it this way: Im very easy going and laid back when it comes to any Mets manager. Games can go so many different ways. But when I second guess you before the fact, your in trouble. Trouble I tell ya, with a capitol 'T' and a 'r-o-u-b' and a 'l' and a 'e'.

Bret Sabermetric Sep 06 2005 03:36 AM

Elster88 wrote: I try not to get too hung up when someone attaches the wrong first name to a last name, especially when it's a common name like Jones. If he knows their closer's name is Jones and the kind of stuff he has, that's all I care about. Sure, but: Doug Jones had VERY unusual stuff for a closer, AND while it's a trivial, and fairly common, error to mix up people's names, how often do you hear a really brainy manager--Tony LaRussa or Tom Kelly or Earl Weaver--do that? I've rarely heard it. The only really successful manager who did this sort of thing a lot was Stengel, who was basically some kind of idiot savant.

KC Sep 06 2005 07:37 AM

>>>Only because you've made me into one, instead of dealing with the content of my posts.<<< So now in addition to being the rude one, I have the ability to create martyrs. You're in no position here to dictate how I deal with your posts. I do a lot of work here. Having to worry about what you're going to say on a daily basis about me, Edge, or whoever you decide you're going to cyber-bully for the day makes the work seem kinda pointless when it's constantly being spit on by former friends.

Bret Sabermetric Sep 06 2005 09:55 AM

KC wrote: I have the ability to create martyrs. Sure you do. If I decide to respond to every single one of your posts as the work of a deranged Lithuanian Liberation Army malcontent because that's much easier than actually responding to the content, and if I take pains to repeat "deranged Lithiuanian Liberation Army malcontent" several times in every response I make, then guess what? I have created a genuine deranged Lithuanian Liberation Army malcontent out of you, at least as far as our readers are concerned. I would rather you dealt with the content of my posts. I don't think that's quite "dictat[ing] how [you] deal with [me.]" It's only the basic respect you give to any poster. But if you're going to refuse, if you're going to pretend that you're ignoring what I'm saying (which is fine with me) BECAUSE it's all whining, self-pitying ,me-me-me BS, I'm going to take the extreme liberty of pointing out that's what you're doing. Eef you don't mind, that is. Would you like to borrow my nice clean handerchief to wipe some of that spittle off your face? I'm very sorry for it, and I assure you I would never spit on any of my friends, at least not on purpose.

KC Sep 06 2005 10:04 AM

I don't think I can exist in the same room with you anymore.

Elster88 Sep 06 2005 10:18 AM

Since you don't want to be a martyr, and since KC doesn't want you to be a martyr or to make you a martyr, could you change your avatar? _____________________________ This post was made under the designation 163) Charlie Neal

ABG Sep 06 2005 10:49 AM

I'd have no complaints if KC were to take any cyber action, no matter how drastic, in dealing with this. Just sayin'.

KC Sep 06 2005 11:00 AM

Lol, don't get your hopes up ... banning people just invites more shenanigans.

cooby Sep 06 2005 11:01 AM

But your list of a half dozen names may start to grow...

Bret Sabermetric Sep 06 2005 12:03 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 06 2005 12:10 PM

Elster88 wrote: Since you don't want to be a martyr, and since KC doesn't want you to be a martyr or to make you a martyr, could you change your avatar? KC offered to do this weeks ago. His memory, as he says, isn't so good. You know how to make a martyr, for real? You kill him, right? I'm just saying. All I ever wanted to do around here was talk baseball. But my opinions of this spectacularly well-run baseball organization seem to be unacceptable to some of you. If you think banning me will make this organization more competent, knock yourselves out.

Elster88 Sep 06 2005 12:10 PM

I just don't like your avatar. I am staying out of the rest of it. _____________________________ This post was made under the designation 163) Charlie Neal

Bret Sabermetric Sep 06 2005 12:15 PM

Elster88 wrote: I just don't like your avatar. Okey-dokey. You know how this horrible image came to appear on this forum, of course? KC posted it to make fun of my supposedly whining tone (again, not addressing my point, but just manufacturing an image of me that made my point irrelevant), and nobody said boo. After I adopted it, then it became offensive and objectionable. Them's the plain facts. KC can do whatever he chooses to my avatar, or to me for that matter.

Bret Sabermetric Sep 06 2005 12:16 PM

cooby wrote: But your list of a half dozen names may start to grow... More mythmaking.

Elster88 Sep 06 2005 12:17 PM

I do know and I think we had this discussion before. It was objectional all along. Not even necessarily because it's Christ in particular who is depicted, but because it's someone covered in blood screaming in agony. My point is that this picture is now on every one of your posts, whereas the original post is buried away somewhere that I don't have to look at it. _____________________________ This post was made under the designation 163) Charlie Neal

KC Sep 06 2005 12:21 PM

Bret Sabermetric, message board boy scout. I hope your happy, I'm breaking out in hives.

martin Sep 06 2005 12:22 PM

i am sort of new around here, but this bret sabermetric fellow is the sort of "look at me!" guy that makes me tired of other places.

cooby Sep 06 2005 12:23 PM

Bret Sabermetric wrote: ="Elster88"]I just don't like your avatar. Okey-dokey. You know how this horrible image came to appear on this forum, of course? KC posted it to make fun of my supposedly whining tone (again, not addressing my point, but just manufacturing an image of me that made my point irrelevant), and nobody said boo. After I adopted it, then it became offensive and objectionable. Them's the plain facts. KC can do whatever he chooses to my avatar, or to me for that matter. Exactly when did Christ whine? (though I'm sure you can figure out a way to depict it that way)

Benjamin Grimm Sep 06 2005 12:24 PM

I think Jesus changed water into whine.

Bret Sabermetric Sep 06 2005 12:25 PM

Seems to me you've got a complaint with KC for posting the image in the first place. If it was acceptable in order to make fun of me, then I think it's acceptable (to me) in order to make fun of him. Or maybe you want to make me into some kind of long-suffering martyr or something, you know, taking shit but never getting to dish any out? Nah, nobody thinks that's really fair, least of all, Mr. Fairness himself. I don't really get how KC gets to appoint himself the arbitor of what's fair and not fair, anyway. When he complained, somewhat cryptically last week, that my posts somehow argue "unfairly," I think he meant that I tend to remember what I wrote, and what other people wrote, and I remind people of those two things. If that's unfair, I plead guilty. Otherwise, not.

Bret Sabermetric Sep 06 2005 12:29 PM

cooby wrote: Exactly when did Christ whine? (though I'm sure you can figure out a way to depict it that way) I didn't say that Christ whined. I said that KC posted it to make fun of my supposed whining. So I guess you'll have to ask KC. As if.

Elster88 Sep 06 2005 12:33 PM

Bret Sabermetric wrote: Seems to me you've got a complaint with KC for posting the image in the first place. If it was acceptable in order to make fun of me, then I think it's acceptable (to me) in order to make fun of him. Or maybe you want to make me into some kind of long-suffering martyr or something, you know, taking shit but never getting to dish any out? Nah, nobody thinks that's really fair, least of all, Mr. Fairness himself. Like I said, though you are choosing to ignore: That picture is everywhere now, on all of your posts, whereas the original is nowhere to be found. The reason I didn't complain in the first place in the original post is because I knew where it was, and I didn't have to go look at it if I didn't want to (and I continued to read that thread anyway). This is obviously not true anymore. To me your whole argument is stupid. "KC posted it so I can too. See, since you didn't complain the first time it's too late now."

Vic Sage Sep 06 2005 12:35 PM

hi bret try saying something about baseball. if people are rude to you in response, call them on it and MOVE ON. But, as you well know, we're constantly rude to each other here, so why can't you just ignore it and continue along in whatever tone you wish? the "martyr" thing is about your constant whining about how people here treat you. if you'd keep it about baseball, at least the rudeness would be about your opinions, not about you. suck it up and give me more reasons why WWSB sucks, from the vantage point of a devout Red Sox fan. oh, and i like the picture, by the way. But that's just me.

ScarletKnight41 Sep 06 2005 12:39 PM

There are two separate issues here. Kase used the image once. You say it was to make fun of you. I'm sure he would say it was an attempt at humor. Whether the joke was offensive or not, it was a one time deal. OTOH, you've adopted the image as your avatar. Over time, many posters have specifically told you that they find the image upsetting and/or offensive. Yet you continue to use it. At the same time, you complain that you're not being taken seriously. But continuing to use that image, along with your tendency to hyperbole and exaggeration (others might say it's to make fun of them. I'm sure you would say it's an attempt at humor....) make it difficult to take your posts seriously.

metsmarathon Sep 06 2005 02:41 PM

if you don't believe in jesus, then the picture disappears. its pretty amazing, in fact. y'all should try it! if it doesnt work, just believe harder. its a nasty tradeoff for going to hell i guess, but then, if you dont believe in him anymore, tehn you prolly dont believe you can be sent to hell for not blelieving in him, so then it works out afterall.

KC Sep 06 2005 04:11 PM

I don't find the avatar all that annoying either. I referred to it's size once and Bret of course thought I was singling him out even though I pm'd a few people weeks before (spaceman's bong for sure) and I just never followed through with the downsizing campaign. Images can be blocked in most browsers from particular url's if they are really offensive. If anyone needs help doing that please pm my your browser type and version and I'll try to send you the steps. Thanks for everyone's patience.

Bret Sabermetric Sep 06 2005 04:50 PM

Vic Sage wrote: hi bret try saying something about baseball. Hi, Norrin. Fuck you. I tried saying things about baseball IN THIS THREAD (see my first post at Sun Sep 04, 2005 10:07 am ) then dared to comment that Edgy's remark about rudeness was in itself far ruder than DocTee's, to which KC responded, not by defending Edgy's point, but by characterizing me irrelevantly as carrying a cross "that just gets bigger everyday and must be difficult to bear." What the fuck did that have to do with anything? I can't criticize Edgy's post on its merits (or lack thereof) because I have in KC's view made a martyr out of myself elsewhere? What fucking planet am I on, anyway? Despite my further efforts to talk baseball IN THIS THREAD (see my post at Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:33 pm) , KC kept returning to the so-called issue of my supposed martyrdom. I'll give you a clue, for free: if you're tired of hearing about something, don't keep bringing it up yourself. if you think other people (i.e., me) are bringing it up all the time, ignore the martyr's self-pitying remarks and they'll usually wither away all by themselves. Just shake your head, and muttter' That poor deluded fool, feeling all sorry for himself" (I do it all the time for dealing with hardcore Mets fans, and I tell you, it really works). But KC's playing to the crowd here, and it's a loud home crowd, so he could accuse me of being a pedagogic thespian at this point, and old ABG and other suckups will just go "Yeah, right on, KC. Give it to him, whatever you just said." And if I wasn't clear enough before, go fuck yourself. And have a nice day.

Zvon Sep 06 2005 05:30 PM

Bret, your use of the avatar is very easily explained. Tell em...... your being spiteful. Someone pulled a good one on you (I bet it was funny, but I wasnt around then) and in turn you will throw it back in their face every post and dare them to assault your rights of speech and representation. Personally i dont care. If someone has , say, a swatztika avatar, I note it, and am glad for the forewarning that I am dealing with an asshole. After hearing the story behind your pic, I am glad for the forewarning that I am dealing with a spiteful and somewhat bitter person. Its ashame tho. Your funny, your smart, you have a brilliant way with words, yet you use your talents for the dark side of the force. Im not adverse to your opinions, on Mets managment or the state of the team. I agree with some of what you say. But the rancidness with which sometimes go after individuals with negativity also forwarns me that you have a problem that goes beyond your dislike of just the National League Metropolitan Baseball Club. Or maybe this IS the way you show the love. I dunno. Some here have hit the nail on the head. You would love to play the martyr, you would wear getting banned from this place like a medal on your chest. ( Ive run message boards. Ive dealt with your type before. Every board has at least one. For the life of me, i dunno why. Guess its a personality trait issue, where thats just what one is happy doing) Edge is wise enough to see this and you can stomp and whine and jump up and down and assault everyones senses. But It aint gonna happen. Not that way, in any case. Maybe you get run off using the same ammo you use to try and create discourse among a group of people who have been brought together by one thing in common, their baseball team. Maybe we run you off using words. I hope not tho. I like your side of the empty glass. I think every place needs a yang to the ying. If you want to just focus on individual battles with other personalities, Ill just gloss over those posts, and wait til you say something relevant about the team, which you do from time to time. It may be all negative, but its about the team, and Ill respect that. Its a shame that someone who could make this place shine a lil brighter with his wit and wisdom chooses to butt heads for the sake of it.

KC Sep 06 2005 05:33 PM

Lol, what did you and Norrin have lunch today?

KC Sep 06 2005 05:39 PM

>>>But the rancidness with which sometimes go after individuals with negativity also forwarns me that you have a problem that goes beyond your dislike of just the National League Metropolitan Baseball Club.<<< He's being nice to me by some measures.

Zvon Sep 06 2005 05:39 PM

wheaties. did anybody read about the scene on the mound with Willie and Trachsel before the Chipper blast? I dont wanna get into it now, i wanna read the game, but i will.

Elster88 Sep 06 2005 07:16 PM

KC wrote: I don't find the avatar all that annoying either. I referred to it's size once and Bret of course thought I was singling him out even though I pm'd a few people weeks before (spaceman's bong for sure) and I just never followed through with the downsizing campaign. Images can be blocked in most browsers from particular url's if they are really offensive. If anyone needs help doing that please pm my your browser type and version and I'll try to send you the steps. Thanks for everyone's patience. Thanks for the info. I didn't realize it was the easy. If I had that big a problem with Sal's avatar that I should have asked if it was possible to do this before bothering Sal.

cooby Sep 06 2005 07:59 PM

FOR ZVON September cooby award. Sixth of the month, a new record

Vic Sage Sep 07 2005 08:51 AM

]Hi, Norrin. Fuck you. See? I don't let that bother ME. ]I tried saying things about baseball IN THIS THREAD ... lets see. Here is a list of your posts in this thread about Bobby V and WWSB: Sunday 9/4 1) 10:07am - a baseball-related post (and a good one!) 2) 11:44am - you attack the tone of Edgy's schoolmarmish post to DocTee ... not the "content", but the TONE of a post that was not addressed to you at all. 3) 2:45pm - you continue to attack Edgy. Edgy remains, as usual, unresponsive to your baiting. Monday 9/5 4) 5:26pm - non-baseball related posts continue, this time expanding your target from Edgy to include KC too 5) 7:17pm - and it continues.. 6) 9:33pm -- finally, another BB related post! (that's 2 out of 6, so far) Tuesday 9/6 7) 5:36am - you wake up extra early to make another BB-related post 8) 11:55am - but then you digress... 9) 2:03pm - and yet again ... (in this, your 6th non-BB related post out of 9 so far, you state without irony that "all i ever wanted to do around here was talk baseball") 10) 2:15pm - and again... 11) 2:16pm - and again... 12) 2:25pm - and again... 13) 2:29pm - and again... 14) 6:50pm - So, after 13 posts with only 3 related to baseball and the other 10 either attacking or defending against your "tormentors", after i suggest you try sticking to baseball and stop whining, you then turn to me. So, thats 3 baseball posts out of 14 so far in this thread. Yes, i could gloss over your "woe is me"s but then i'd be ignoring you so much, i'd be dealing with you as Edgy does... pretending you don't even exist. I'm not Edgy. And i'm not KC, who appears to be barely able to tolerate your continued existance on the planet. I actually LIKE you. So i suggested you stop reacting to every perceived or even ACTUAL slight, and stick to baseball, and ultimately all this ad hominem stuff would fade away. your response? ] And if I wasn't clear enough before, go fuck yourself. And have a nice day I do intend to have a nice day. And the same good wishes unto you, my belicose brother. :)

KC Sep 07 2005 09:02 AM

Nah, I like him ... so does KB. It's kind of tough sometime though. I can't find it, but sometime a few days ago I congratulated him on a promortion and even that got thrown back in my face. One big happy disfunctional family this CPF is.

Bret Sabermetric Sep 07 2005 09:27 AM Interested in what "throwing back in my face" look

KC wrote: "Nah, I like him ... so does KB. It's kind of tough sometime though. I can't find it, but sometime a few days ago I congratulated him on a promortion and even that got thrown back in my face. One big happy disfunctional family this CPF is." This is throwing it back in your face? How so? http://cybermessageboard.ehost.com/getalife/viewtopic.php?t=1149&start=20 I like KC too, though if he can't be in the same room as me, I'll have to start liking him from the next room. Liking all of yuz-- which I do -- has very little to do with your collective and remarkable intolerence for accepting my (sometimes radically) different opinions from most of you. You can't stop offering your views on how much good shutting up would do me, or why you attribute my views on baseball to being dropped on my head frequently as a young child, or why you consider them invalid because I'm not sufficiently loyal to the team? Well, as was said of the tiger--"he is a vicious brute who dares defend himself when attacked." If you stick to arguing baseball, I'll continue being civil and friendly. If you start posting gigantic photos of the suffering Son of God to express your contempt for me, I might downsize that image and adopt it as my avatar. Again, if your position is "You can't do that," then mine becomes "Fuck you." You don't want hostility coming from me? Try giving me a little less. It's easy. Has nothing to do with liking you, or you liking me. Strange as it may seem, I still have a lot of affection and respect for a certain Washington-based editor, though I consider his on-line emanation to be a bit of a jerk. *with the possible exception of Bart, who keeps interjecting himself into the discussion without contributing anything

KC Sep 07 2005 10:04 AM

I guess what I should have said was, "I don't think we should be in the same room right now". You irritate me no end sometimes, and I really didn't want to bump this up another level. I can be a terribly nasty person if pushed. The downright ugliness is not something I want to display here. I huffed off and stuffed a couple of Whoppers down my pie hole and came back feeling better.

Vic Sage Sep 07 2005 10:12 AM

3 out of 15, and counting.