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Livan

Edgy DC
Feb 14 2009 09:25 PM

Seriously, what's this about? Doesn't seem like the type to stay parked at AAA waiting for an opportunity. He's supposedly still only 33 (34 next week) on the one hand. On the other, he's thrown an awful lot of innings.

Nymr83
Feb 14 2009 10:47 PM

he's probably pushing 40, i'm glad the Mets have brought in Livan, Redding, and Garcia. Depth is good.

metsguyinmichigan
Feb 14 2009 11:37 PM

I'd rather have Livan than Lima, Chan Ho and other insurance we've had in the past.

Number 6
Feb 15 2009 03:01 AM

Well, if nothing else this will ensure that I have the Elton John song stuck in my head for the next few days.

themetfairy
Feb 15 2009 05:53 AM

D-Dad thinks that Livan is here to keep El Duque company while rehabbing.

Edgy DC
Feb 15 2009 06:02 AM

El Duque is in camp?

If this means nothing else, it's got to be another arrow in any Pedro Martinez scenario.

Fman99
Feb 15 2009 06:10 AM

Thirty four my ass.

Key words here are "minor league contract." The more the merrier.

Benjamin Grimm
Feb 15 2009 06:10 AM

I'm not aware of that. As far as I know, Orlando Hernandez is an unsigned free agent.

He seems pretty much done, doesn't he? I don't think he'll be heard from again.

Frayed Knot
Feb 15 2009 06:31 AM

Livan might be the first of Omar's long-rumored "obsessions" that he's actually signed. All the others: Sammy, Manny, Vazquez, Chad Cordero, plus others that everyone just KNEW he was going to ink at the first opportunity have never materialized.

I've already heard panic that his $1million plus incentives salary is a sure sign that he'll make the team no matter how he pitches (plus, y'know, the obsession thing) but that money only kicks in if he makes the ML roster and Omar has said this is mainly a way to stock ST while the WBC folks are away, a way to stock Buffalo for the summer, and an insurance policy against the unexpected.

Nymr83
Feb 15 2009 06:39 AM

]Key words here are "minor league contract." The more the merrier.
]Omar has said this is mainly a way to stock ST while the WBC folks are away, a way to stock Buffalo for the summer, and an insurance policy against the unexpected.


I'm really glad to see the Mets learning from what I consider to be past mistakes ("Lima Time")

Frayed Knot
Feb 15 2009 06:56 AM

Well it's not like Lima was just handed a job either.
That was the year they wound up needing 10 starting pitchers just to get through the first 50 games or so. Lima, IIRC, was number 7 or 8 in that conga line which didn't really stabilize until the trade for Livan's bro in late May.

smg58
Feb 15 2009 08:01 AM

You can never have too much depth. And the more lottery tickets you purchase, the better your chances of cashing one in. I'm not expecting much, but I'd settle for him keeping us in a game or two in an emergency.

bmfc1
Feb 15 2009 08:21 AM

I'm thinking, and definitely hoping, that Omar is trying to avoid having the likes of Brandon Knight, Brian Lawrence, Dave Williams, or a rookie such as Phil Humber, start a game in the final 2 weeks of the season. This has been my biggest criticism of Omar: that he doesn't have the team protected for the inevitable injuries that have occurred the last two Septembers. His failure to have a back-up plan has necessitated the above "all-stars" starting key games. Perhaps Omar is thinking that he can "store" Livan and others in the bullpen and/or Buffalo for the year and insert them into the rotation as necessary.

G-Fafif
Feb 15 2009 09:21 AM

The original 2006 starting rotation was (in the order they first pitched) Glavine, Bannister, Martinez, Trachsel and Zambrano. Bannister went down in late April, replaced by Maine, who was injured right away. The day before Lima took Maine's/Bannister's spot, Zambrano went down. He was replaced by Geremi Gonzalez. Lima got three starts before giving way to Alay Soler. Gonzalez got two before El Duque came aboard.

In a span of 29 games, the Mets used 10 different starting pitchers. They went 17-12 and their divisional lead lost only one game, from 4-1/2 to 3-1/2. Either pretty remarkable or pretty lucky (or both).

Lima got one more start, in early July when Pedro had gone down, Soler had pitched his way out of town and a doubleheader loomed the next day for which Pelfrey was being held; Maine had come back and pitched earlier in the week. Lima had all of four starts for a division-winning team, all of them dreadful but none of them fatal.

Yet the first thing I thought when I heard about Livan Hernandez was, oh no, Lima Time.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Feb 15 2009 12:18 PM

="Fman99"]Thirty four my ass. Key words here are "minor league contract." The more the merrier.


Thirty-four metric years, mebbe? At least he keeps himself in shape... and that shape is pear. (Remember to tip your waitstaff/try the veal... and enjoy the comedic stylings of Rip Taylor!)

CONTRACT QUESTION: Does the $1 million award kick in in full if he's brought up in midseason (rather than breaking camp with the squad), or does it get prorated? I confess to being a bit ignorant on the typical codicils of the not-meant-for-minor-league-minor-league-contract...

Frayed Knot
Feb 15 2009 12:57 PM

="G-Fafif"]The original 2006 starting rotation was (in the order they first pitched) Glavine, Bannister, Martinez, Trachsel and Zambrano. Bannister went down in late April, replaced by Maine, who was injured right away. The day before Lima took Maine's/Bannister's spot, Zambrano went down. He was replaced by Geremi Gonzalez. Lima got three starts before giving way to Alay Soler. Gonzalez got two before El Duque came aboard. In a span of 29 games, the Mets used 10 different starting pitchers. They went 17-12 and their divisional lead lost only one game, from 4-1/2 to 3-1/2. Either pretty remarkable or pretty lucky (or both). Lima got one more start, in early July when Pedro had gone down, Soler had pitched his way out of town and a doubleheader loomed the next day for which Pelfrey was being held; Maine had come back and pitched earlier in the week. Lima had all of four starts for a division-winning team, all of them dreadful but none of them fatal. Yet the first thing I thought when I heard about Livan Hernandez was, oh no, Lima Time.
Sure, but as your time-line shows it wasn't exactly like the Mets put together a rotation with the idea that Lima was an integral part of it ... even if the revisionist historians now spout it as if it were.
]CONTRACT QUESTION: Does the $1 million award kick in in full if he's brought up in midseason (rather than breaking camp with the squad), or does it get prorated?


Almost certainly prorated while he's paid at a lower rate while in the minors.
It's also possible that there's a clause in there where if he isn't called up by a certain date he could hunt around for his own deal. That way the Mets would have him as a ST body while he auditions for other clubs.

Edgy DC
Feb 15 2009 01:16 PM

="bmfc1":289vj10h]I'm thinking, and definitely hoping, that Omar is trying to avoid having the likes of Brandon Knight, Brian Lawrence, Dave Williams, or a rookie such as Phil Humber, start a game in the final 2 weeks of the season.[/quote:289vj10h]

I'm going to disagree here. Firstly, I think Brian Lawrence is pretty analogous to the players they've stockpiled. Secondly, in recent years, I think the Mets have been probably far more aggressive than morst about keeping veteran starters on the shelf. And I think they've nonetheless had as much success plugging rotation holes with the fringey (Brandon Knight, Nelson Figueroa, Matt Ginter), the wet-behind the ears (Maine, Bannister, Pelfrey --- who admittedly took a long time to get untracked, but did so after re-joining the rotation as a fill-in --- and Humber's tragic start fits in here) and the in-between (Alay Soler, Heilman) than they've ever had with the vets.

Looking the last several years at veteran starters (at least 30, more than 50 big league victories to their credit) that they've used:

<table cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" border="1" bordercolor="black"><tr bgcolor="black"><td align="center"><b><font color="white">Year</td><td><b><font color="white">Player</td><td align="center"><b><font color="white">GS</td><td align="center"><b><font color="white">W</td><td align="center"><b><font color="white">L</td><td align="center"><b><font color="white">IP</td><td align="center"><b><font color="white">ERA</td><td align="center"><b><font color="white">Win%</td></tr><tr><td align="center">2008</td><td>Armas</td><td align="center">1</td><td align="center">1</td><td align="center">0</td><td align="center">6.00</td><td align="center">6.00</td><td align="center">1.000</td></tr><tr><td align="center">2007</td><td>Lawrence</td><td align="center">6</td><td align="center">1</td><td align="center">2</td><td align="center">29.00</td><td align="center">6.83</td><td align="center">.333</td></tr><tr><td align="center">2007</td><td>Park</td><td align="center">1</td><td align="center">0</td><td align="center">1</td><td align="center">4.00</td><td align="center">15.75</td><td align="center">.000</td></tr><tr><td align="center">2006</td><td>Lima</td><td align="center">4</td><td align="center">0</td><td align="center">4</td><td align="center">17.33</td><td align="center">9.87</td><td align="center">.000</td></tr><tr><td align="center">2004</td><td>Erickson</td><td align="center">2</td><td align="center">0</td><td align="center">1</td><td align="center">8.00</td><td align="center">7.88</td><td align="center">.000</td></tr><tr><td align="center">2004</td><td>Baldwin</td><td align="center">2</td><td align="center">0</td><td align="center">2</td><td align="center">6.00</td><td align="center">15.00</td><td align="center">.000</td></tr><tr bgcolor="black"><td align="center"><b><font color="white">All</td><td><b><font color="white">Totals</td><td align="center"><b><font color="white">16</td><td align="center"><b><font color="white">2</td><td align="center"><b><font color="white">10</td><td align="center"><b><font color="white">70.33</td><td align="center"><b><font color="white">8.83</td><td align="center"><b><font color="white">.167</td></tr></table>

Younger, shorter track record, perhaps less entitled veterans (Sosa, Vargas, Geremi Gonzalez, even Williams) have also had more success.

I don't mean to suggest that keeping older starters with some history of success around on the shelf is a bad strategy, but I think it best to be choosey among them, so as not to have so many that Parnell and/or Niese get buried. Letting those guys step into a breach if they earn it can have the added benefit of long-term returns also.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Feb 15 2009 01:30 PM

Figs and Brandon Knight ARE still options as well. (BK on 40-man, our boy from Brooklyn as a NRI.)

And at 22 and 23, respectively, Niese and Parnell have much more time to get "blocked" if need be. Of course, even with our new old Cuban in the humidor, both are pro'lly still hovering around the 2nd-3rd option in terms of pecking order for spot-start/callup duty if they don't make the roster out of ST, no?