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More Than One Way to Get It Done

Edgy DC
Feb 17 2009 08:49 AM

Controversial stuff here from Manuel:

<blockquote>Manuel's unusual hitting drill hands-on Manager believes tool will help Mets combat fatigue at the plate By Marty Noble / MLB.com 02/16/09 7:07 PM EST

PORT ST. LUCIE, Fla. -- Some degree of any big league training camp is about conditioning, of course. Pitchers run sprints and "poles" -- foul pole to foul pole -- and throw, and everyone builds stamina. Outfielders and infielders have to "get their legs," catchers must reintroduce their knees, backs and muscles to the rigors of squatting. And in this Mets camp, the first one organized and administrated by manager Jerry Manuel, even the hitters work on stamina, strange as that may sound.

Swinging a bat and driving pitches never is done without effort and strain. Swing a bat 80 times in six minutes -- i.e., swing at 80 pitches and make contact with each with no more than seconds between successive pitches -- and fatigue is added to the equation. Or as Ramon Castro said Monday after his turn in the cage, "You try it and see how you feel. Phew!"

Castro, Brian Schneider and some of the other catchers in camp had been put through the grind late Monday morning, put through an innovation -- it was new to a Mets camp -- that Manuel believes will prepare his hitters for some of the situations that will confront them this summer in Citizens Bank Park, Turner Field and Citi Field.

The opposing pitcher was a latter day version of Iron Mike. And the machine doesn't know from fatigue. Rookie Josh Thole stepped into the cage and was told by batting coach Howard Johnson, "swing at every pitch. Don't take anything."

And it started, the batting practice equivalent of the sports bar free throw game "Pop-a-Shot." Pitch-swing, pitch-swing, pitch-swing.

"It's the old Les Moss drill with a variation," Johnson explained, invoking the name of the former White Sox and Tigers manager. "It's about bat control and learning to do what needs to be done when we've got a man on third and we've got to get him in. We don't need all that body movement. This pretty much forces you to use your hands."

With Manuel standing directly behind the cage, the machine relentlessly fed breaking pitches to Thole, the 22-year-old left-handed-hitting catcher the Mets have learned to appreciate in the past year. And Thole put good swings on the first 20-25 pitches. In one way, at least, he is a clone of Daniel Murphy. Thole's natural swing drives the ball to left-center, occasionally left field. And the drill called for opposite-field hitting exclusively.

For the first minute or so, Thole produced well-struck line drives over the head of the invisible shortstop. A few fly balls bounced down the line and toward the corner. By the fourth minute, the swings produced softer fly balls, occasional, up-the-middle ground balls and a degree of fatigue uncommon for batting practice.

"It's a lot harder than you think," Thole said. "You don't think about being really too tired in the cage. But with this, you really feel it after a while."

It's not only about stamina.

"It gets you doing things right," Manuel said later. "When the fatigue starts and you have to keep going, you have to use your hands. That's the idea."

Manuel introduced some players to the drill -- there's no name for it yet -- last season after he replaced Willie Randolph. Schneider recalled it.

"I can't say I like it," the veteran catcher said. "But it seems like it helps. I know it keeps you using your hands. It keeps your body out of it."

The objective is connected in several ways to improving the Mets' situational hitting hand-eye coordination, making contact when contact is essential, going the other way -- for right-handed hitters -- when a runner is on second base.

"There are things you can do in practice to make yourself better in those situations, and that's one of them," Manuel said.

After one particularly vexing late-season loss last year, Manuel pointed out that two of his players -- David Wright and Carlos Beltran -- needed to be more liberal with their strike zones in some situations; that the perfect swing is not always the proper tool. Sometimes awkward and ugly swings are needed to keep an at-bat -- and an inning -- alive.

Ted Williams never went out of the strike zone, never adjusted his swing, regardless of the circumstances. He was a great hitter. The strike zone Yogi Berra employed had neither definite size nor rectangular shape. He played see-ball, hit-ball. Berra was a great clutch hitter.

Each has a place in the game. When former Mets manager Dallas Green was managing the Yankees in 1989, he raved one day about how Royals second baseman Frank White had adjusted his swing to hit a critical sacrifice fly ball one batter after the more feared and practiced swing of George Brett had produce a well struck but ineffective groundout. Green called White a "winning" player. Out of respect for Brett, he didn't characterize the future Hall of Fame third baseman that day.

Jamie Quirk, Brett's close friend and then the Yankees' catcher, said "If George changes his swing [to fit the situation], it'll mess him up for a week. Frank has that swing in his back of tricks."

Manuel isn't trying to develop the next Berra or White, and he certainly wouldn't turn his back on the next Brett. But Manuel does find it contrary to what might be beneficial for the good of the team when players are more concerned with maintaining their swings than advancing the runner.

"It's not selfishness," the manager said last year. "It's not realizing there's another way to get it done."

Marty Noble is a reporter for MLB.com. This story was not subject to the approval of Major League Baseball or its clubs.</blockquote>

metirish
Feb 17 2009 09:10 AM

I get pains in my arms just thinking about swinging a bat 80 times.

Edgy DC
Feb 17 2009 09:33 AM
Re: More Than One Way to Get It Done

="Noble"]Manuel isn't trying to develop the next Berra or White, and he certainly wouldn't turn his back on the next Brett.

See, I'm parting ways here, because I think we may have the next Brett. I suspect there's another level Dabidrye can stil take his game to, and I'm fine with him focusing on recognizing strikes and making good contact when (and only when) they come. Yeah, that may mean some situational failures, and Wright did have one or two biguns last year, but still.

dinosaur jesus
Feb 17 2009 09:37 AM

Williams was only a great hitter, but Yogi was a great clutch hitter? Oh, come on now.

Frayed Knot
Feb 17 2009 11:14 AM

="dinosaur jesus"]Williams was only a great hitter, but Yogi was a great clutch hitter? Oh, come on now.


Yeah, I know.
But Noble's point there is that Williams wasn't going to make an out on a pitcher's pitch since he was more than willing to take the walk (sometimes to a fault say his critics). Berra, on the other hand, could and often did do something with those off-the-plate fishing trips to the point where the hurler wished he took the walk since the result was Yogi slicing it in a corner somewhere. So that in a situation where a pitcher was trying not to get beat by each guy, Yogi could be said to be the more dangerous hitter.

Maybe that's not everyone's definition of "clutch" (a word that's becoming the third-rail of baseball talk) but I think that's what he meant by it.

dinosaur jesus
Feb 17 2009 02:38 PM

Well, Yogi made it work for him. He was a terrific hitter, and I'm sure some of the current guys could learn from him. But I seriously doubt that his fishing trips did more damage than Williams's patience.

Nymr83
Feb 17 2009 03:03 PM

="Frayed Knot":3kk8fb02] Maybe that's not everyone's definition of "clutch" (a word that's becoming the third-rail of baseball talk) but I think that's what he meant by it.[/quote:3kk8fb02]

When baseball writers say "clutch" its actually being used as a synonym for "yankeeness"

Edgy DC
Feb 17 2009 05:24 PM

Yeah, but Noble isn't like that. And when you're talking about opening up your strike zone, Berra (Noble grew up on the 1950s Yankees) is naturally going to come to mind. He's the most famous bad ball hitter whether you're a Yankee fan or not.

Frayed Knot
Feb 17 2009 05:29 PM

"Well, Yogi made it work for him."

That he did. Over 8,000 trips to the plate and just 400 Ks.
Word on him was that you just couldn't get one by him no matter where you put it - particularly once there were two strikes on him. If nothing else he'd just foul them off all day until he got a good one.



"He was a terrific hitter, and I'm sure some of the current guys could learn from him."

Of course there was the story from 'Ball Four' where Yogi was stumbling over his words while trying to teach some young hitters a few things before just getting frustrated and saying; "oh just watch how I do it".



"But I seriously doubt that his fishing trips did more damage than Williams's patience."

On the whole, no. But in those occasional spots where the hurler was trying not to give something too good Williams would walk, Berra might reach out and hit a double.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Feb 17 2009 09:49 PM

="Edgy DC"]Yeah, but Noble isn't like that. And when you're talking about opening up your strike zone, Berra (Noble grew up on the 1950s Yankees) is naturally going to come to mind. He's the most famous bad ball hitter whether you're a Yankee fan or not.


Noble, however, is the kind of guy who values ineffable, eye-of-the-beholder "clutch" over actual numbers (Can't find stats right now, but I dug earlier upon reading the article-- Baseball Cube, mebbe?-- and Williams' OBP and BA in close-and-lates trumps Berra's, perceptions aside).

Noble also tends to undervalue OBP, sneer at VORP and generally disdain anything stats-wise that smells modern or mathy to him. I tend to read him for the news, and take the 'nalysis with a clump of salt.


That said, sounds like a fun drill. (Says a man with a Wii-related elbow-stress injury.)

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Feb 17 2009 10:07 PM

I like Noble for his Spring Training reports more than anything. He really gets me in the mood. Disturbing I know.

batmagadanleadoff
Feb 17 2009 10:16 PM

I'd bet there's a lot of apocryphalness to this whole Berra discussion and that over time, people tended to have forgotten those instances where Berra grounded out weakly to second base on a pitch that was easily ball four. I didn't see either of these two All-time greats play, but the numbers are the numbers. Williams was the better hitter of the two. And there's no reasonable way to spin it otherwise.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Feb 17 2009 10:39 PM

I do like the spring training stuff too (although guys like David Lennon are doing his job and then some so far this spring, minus his biases). I also like him for the fortitude it must have taken him to get through life with a pumpkin for a head.



/For instant commenting fun, just ad hominem!

Frayed Knot
Feb 18 2009 07:00 AM

="batmagadanleadoff":1i832gc7]I'd bet there's a lot of apocryphalness to this whole Berra discussion ... but the numbers are the numbers. Williams was the better hitter of the two. And there's no reasonable way to spin it otherwise.[/quote:1i832gc7]

And I don't think anyone's trying to do that.

batmagadanleadoff
Feb 18 2009 09:26 AM

="Frayed Knot":3h1soavs]
="batmagadanleadoff":3h1soavs]I'd bet there's a lot of apocryphalness to this whole Berra discussion ... but the numbers are the numbers. Williams was the better hitter of the two. And there's no reasonable way to spin it otherwise.[/quote:3h1soavs] And I don't think anyone's trying to do that.[/quote:3h1soavs]

And that's a good thing!