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="themetfairy":1tjckuq9]Banging...head...against....wall....[/quote:1tjckuq9]
If it was a Met's headprint and this was the Delta Club, they'd plaster it over immediately.
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metsmarathon
Apr 20 2009 09:34 AM
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on the one hand, i can totally understand the reaction that, "c'mon, its a brand new fucking building, and you have to go and write on teh damned wall because some schmuck asks you to?"
but at the same time, jeez, fucking roll with it you morons.
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metirish
Apr 20 2009 09:39 AM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 20 2009 09:43 AM
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This is the kind of thing that the Mets handle very badly , like metsmarathon noted they should roll with it. Get as many Mets and former Mets to sign on that area , turn it into a cool thing.
EDIT - what Greg said
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Edgy DC
Apr 20 2009 09:40 AM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 20 2009 06:05 PM
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Leaving the statdium bare of the metaphorical signature of Met greats, despite the demand, sort of invites this. Nature abhors a vacuum, and so does a marketplace.
If Gooden's signature was already on the ballpark, in a sense, he wouldn't have had to literally put it there.
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MFS62
Apr 20 2009 09:41 AM
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="G-Fafif":1f7s0fge]Geez, hang a frame around it and call it the Doc Suite. Declare it The Wall of Greats and invite the next Met who drops by to add his John Hancock. Or John Hudek even. [/quote:1f7s0fge]
That would have been a great immediate response to all those who have been asking them to glorify the past Mets at least as much as they have glorified a team that is no longer here.
Later
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seawolf17
Apr 20 2009 09:46 AM
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How dare that selfish ass deface Fred Wilpon's walls? Doesn't he know how much those walls cost? He should be banned from the ballpark for life.
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G-Fafif
Apr 20 2009 09:48 AM
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They might even be able to charge extra for The Signature Suite.
Instead, it's "My walls! My beautiful bare walls!" Yeah, Doug Sisk comes over and spray paints EL SISKO on Jeff Wilpon's garage door, by all means call the Greenwich PD. But judgment, Mets. Judgment.
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MFS62
Apr 20 2009 10:10 AM
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="G-Fafif":3qtj3lba]They might even be able to charge extra for The Signature Suite.
Instead, it's "My walls! My beautiful bare walls!" Yeah, Doug Sisk comes over and spray paints EL SISKO on Jeff Wilpon's garage door, by all means call the Greenwich PD. But judgment, Mets. Judgment.[/quote:3qtj3lba]
Since he lost that $300 mil to Madoff, I'm not sure the Greenwich PD would even respond to that call. In that town, he's now a piker.
Later
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metsguyinmichigan
Apr 20 2009 10:29 AM
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When they figure out what they want to do and where they want to have such tributes, they can invite Doc back to sign whatever they want.
I don't know where this wall is, but if it's part of an area that people can touch, I can see that they don't want them writing there.
There's a pizza place in Chicago -- Gino's, I think -- where the gimmick is that they encourage people to write on the walls and such. And every inch of the place is covered in writing to the point that it looks like hell. The pizza rocked -- Chicago deep dish at it's finest -- but the place felt kind of dirty.
So I can see what they want to avoid, because Dave Murray's signature might look a lot like Dan Murphy's and once you get jokers writing on walls and can't tell who is real and who is a goof ball fan from Michigan with a Sharpie.
That said, the Mets botched dealing with this as they usually do. Frame a beautiful print of Doc, have him sign away and display it proudly somewhere.
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G-Fafif
Apr 20 2009 10:36 AM
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I'm willing to bet an attendant in the club plus precedent would take care of sorting Met signatures from regular schlub signatures.
Dwight Gooden saw fit to christen the new park, to unleash a tradition on a franchise that avoids acknowledging it has any. That outweighs the value of pristine blank walls and the vague concept of vandalism.
Cerrone has a picture of the offending inscription [url=http://www.metsblog.com/2009/04/20/note-mets-to-erase-docs-signature/:3nmcu3et]here[/url:3nmcu3et].
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G-Fafif
Apr 20 2009 03:50 PM
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Doc a little verklempt, according to [url=http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/04/20/2009-04-20_gooden_wonders_if_mets_want_him.html?print=1&page=all]News[/url]
| ]Over signature scrub, Dwight Gooden wonders if Mets want him at Citi Field
BY PETER BOTTE
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER
Updated Monday, April 20th 2009, 4:18 PM
Doc Gooden doesn't understand why the Mets are adamant about removing his signature from a wall inside one of the restaurants at their new stadium, and he wonders if the team doesn't want him to hang around Citi Field this season.
The star-crossed former Mets ace acknowledged that he signed his name - with inscriptions depicting his status as the 1984 NL Rookie of the Year, the 1985 Cy Young Award winner and a 1986 World Series champion - on a blank wall near the bar inside the Ebbets Field club late last week.
But the Mets, who have been criticized by fans and media for not paying much homage to the team's history inside their new stadium, have informed Gooden that they plan to remove his autograph by the time the team returns home on Friday.
"One of the guys that worked there asked me to sign one of the walls, so I did it. It wasn't like I was walking around with a sharpie in my pocket," Gooden told the Daily News on Monday. "They asked me to sign the wall as a favor, as something for the fans to see. I was in there watching batting practice and they had fans taking pictures with me by my signature and I thought it was a fun idea.
"I definitely didn't think it was going to turn out to be this big deal. I didn't do anything intentionally for the Mets to get upset. I was just doing it for the fans. I don't see what the big fuss is. Honestly, I don't."
Still, multiple sources confirmed that several Mets higher-ups were not pleased by Gooden's artwork, which was covered up during Saturday's game. P.R. honcho Jay Horwitz said the organization doesn't want the signing to be repeated by Gooden or other former players elsewhere around the stadium.
Gooden said that he agreed to sign another wall in the Modell's "Mo-Zone" on the right-field concourse, where he watched nephew Gary Sheffield play right field for the first time as a Met last Wednesday.
"It's a brand new building, whether it's Doc or any other player, it wasn't meant to write all over the walls," Horwitz said. "We are going to do things to celebrate our history, but this wasn't the right way to get that started. If we allow this precedent, people will be writing all over the stadium."
Owner Fred Wilpon indicated last week that plans are in the works for a Mets Hall of Fame exhibit to be constructed near the outfield food court in the near future. But like many fans, Gooden wondered why that wasn't considered a priority for Citi's opening last Monday.
"They have every right to do what they want with their new stadium, but I don't understand it," Gooden said. "I think it's great that they're talking about it doing now, but I would've thought it would've been there already.
"You'd think they'd want to connect to the '86 team as much as they can, and the '69 team, because those are the only times that they won (the World Series). Most stadiums you go to, even if they've never won anything, they have that.
"So I would think you would have something in there to show the fans that you appreciate that history, and to show the former players, as well . . . I think the former players expect that. I think the fans want that. They want to share it with their kids. I know I want to share it with my kids, too."
Gooden, 44, returned to Shea Stadium for last September's closing ceremony after being away for years since his Mets career was derailed by substance abuse. He isn't sure now how often he will be back.
"Last year when I came to say goodbye to Shea, the ovation the fans gave me made me want to come around more, but when things like this happen, it makes me feel like maybe the Mets don't want me around," Gooden said. "Maybe I shouldn't be, I don't know."
Gooden, who tossed a no-hitter with the Yankees in 1996, also attended the home opener of the new Yankee Stadium last Thursday in the Bronx, and marveled at "how much they embrace their history."
"I wouldn't be upset if they took my (signature) down, but I was just doing it for the fans," said Gooden, who plans to open the Doc Gooden Baseball Academy in Blauvelt, N.Y., this fall. "Everyone was telling me how much the fans liked it and how they were taking pictures with it. But it's their stadium and they can do whatever they want, obviously." |
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MFS62
Apr 20 2009 03:56 PM
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I wonder if this is going to piss off Sheffield, dissing his uncle like that?
Later
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metirish
Apr 20 2009 04:38 PM
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Sheffield is hitting .182 , if gettign mad helps him hit better then great.
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Nymr83
Apr 20 2009 04:45 PM
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| ]"It's a brand new building, whether it's Doc or any other player, it wasn't meant to write all over the walls," Horwitz said. "We are going to do things to celebrate our history, but this wasn't the right way to get that started. If we allow this precedent, people will be writing all over the stadium." |
"this is Ebbets Field II, whether its Doc or any other Met, you can't write on the walls, now if Jackie Robinson's widow wants to do it, thats cool," Horwitz said. "We are going to do things to celebrate Dodger history, but we're not going to let former Met-greats give the fans what they want. If we allow this, we might just have to acknowledge that Seaver, Koosman, and Gooden are the history of this franchise, not Robinson."
I read this story in the post this morning and was disgusted by the Mets stupidity and uncanny ability to turn-off the fans on such a dumb little thing.
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Edgy DC
Apr 20 2009 06:10 PM
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Enough with the Dodgers. This isn't really about that.
The thing is that this is indeed a graffito. But what they need to realize is that --- while I don't want to overstate it --- graffiti from gods is called scripture.
Yeah, Gooden defaced a few square feet of one of your walls. You defaced all of Shea Stadium by knocking it to rubble.
First chance the fans get, I fully expect a "Goo-den! Goo-den! chant."
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Swan Swan H
Apr 20 2009 06:16 PM
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Not all of the fans. Just the ones that are looking to pick on every little thing that seems like a slight. What the fuck is Gooden doing? The busboy says 'Hey Doc, write on that wall over there,' and he snaps out of his stupor and says 'OK.' And that's the hero part of this story? Seaver and Koosman wouldn't have their names taken down because they would know better than to put it up there. Sign a fucking napkin and sit down, Doc.
I've been to the new stadium four times now, and it is a tenfold improvement over the old place. Maybe twenty. Everything is not perfect, but I have really good seats for $25 per, and lots of excellent food choices, and seats that actually face the action, and a small part of the park that honors the most important figure in New York baseball. Jesus Christ, I don't need a million signs with pictures and yearbook covers all over the place. I know where I'm going before I get on the train. It’s not like I woke up on the promenade level and had to figure out where I am. The place looks clean and classy, and just fine.
I, for one, am happy that the Mets acknowledge and honor the past. The Yankees are so goddamned insulated, it's as if nothing that happened outside the Bronx actually happened. And, I guess, with their history they have earned that option. You want that, fine. I don't. Baseball in New York did not begin in 1962.
My father was a Dodgers fan, and until he died there was a picture of Gil, Duke, Jackie and Pee Wee in his room, but from day 1 he was a rabid Mets fan. I dislike the LA Dodgers intensely, mostly the Lasorda effect, but I feel in some way like the Brooklyn Dodgers were the early predecessors of the Mets, almost like the old Senators were to the Twins, and that the LA Dodgers were some sort of different team. I bet a lot of old Giants fans felt that way as well, especially with the Mets playing two years at the Polo Grounds. Maybe if you're under 30 that’s just a bunch of old guy bullshit, but it means a lot to a lot of people.
Should there be a Hall of Fame in the building? Yes, absolutely. They totally missed that one. But Gooden did something childish and stupid, and put the Mets in a position where they were going to look bad if they took it down, or chumps if they left it up.
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SteveJRogers
Apr 20 2009 06:25 PM
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From Cerrone of MetsBlog.com
| ]A team spokesman just told me the Mets plan to move Doc Gooden’s autograph from the wall in the Ebbetts Club, ‘where only a select group of fans can see it,’ to a more prominent location, ‘where all fans can see it.’
In addition, it will be part of a ‘Mets Wall-of-Fame,’ so to speak, in which other notable players from the team’s past will be asked to sign the wall, and dedicate messages to fans, on days when they first visit Citi Field.
Lastly, the team is aware of fan response, and intends to make various announcements over then next few weeks with regards to adding Mets-centric items to the new ballpark. |
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OlerudOwned
Apr 20 2009 06:31 PM
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="SteveJRogers"]From Cerrone of MetsBlog.com
| ]A team spokesman just told me the Mets plan to move Doc Gooden’s autograph from the wall in the Ebbetts Club, ‘where only a select group of fans can see it,’ to a more prominent location, ‘where all fans can see it.’
In addition, it will be part of a ‘Mets Wall-of-Fame,’ so to speak, in which other notable players from the team’s past will be asked to sign the wall, and dedicate messages to fans, on days when they first visit Citi Field.
Lastly, the team is aware of fan response, and intends to make various announcements over then next few weeks with regards to adding Mets-centric items to the new ballpark. |
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Good on them. It's a fair compromise.
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Edgy DC
Apr 20 2009 08:12 PM
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"Never mind."
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Kong76
Apr 20 2009 08:29 PM
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I dunno, I kinda go with the Swan Swan slant ... except for the stupor part
and sign the napkin and sit thing.
I mean another answer would be for everyone to bring Sharpies to every
game they attend and forge that image signature from whatever site that
was everywhere they can without getting caught and not saying they got
the idea from here.
That'd show 'em.
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Nymr83
Apr 20 2009 08:40 PM
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="Kong76":k0c9qwv7]I dunno, I kinda go with the Swan Swan slant ... except for the stupor part
and sign the napkin and sit thing.
I mean another answer would be for everyone to bring Sharpies to every
game they attend and forge that image signature from whatever site that
was everywhere they can without getting caught and not saying they got
the idea from here.
That'd show 'em.[/quote:k0c9qwv7]
do it really large in the parking lot in chalk...everywhere!
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Frayed Knot
Apr 20 2009 09:11 PM
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| ]But Gooden did something childish and stupid, and put the Mets in a position where they were going to look bad if they took it down, or chumps if they left it up. |
I agree that this one incident is being seized as a convenient symbol of ownership dissing Met history despite being a bad example of it.
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Frayed Knot
Apr 21 2009 11:16 AM
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Apparently the Gooden sig and related topics were a major part of Francesa's show yesterday (I didn't hear).
But he opened today's by saying that he got a call from Jeff right after the show ended. Jeff said he and others were listening and were going to "steal" some ideas from the assorted suggestions. Specifically, they're going to take out whatever piece Gooden signed, put it under glass and use it to create a display somewhere in the stadium where other past Mets will be asked to create similar greetings. So while they don't want the Gooden signature where it is, they are going to take the idea and run with it.
Good start, even if they weren't the ones that thought of it.
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metirish
Apr 21 2009 11:26 AM
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It is a good start and nice to know that they are listening to the fans , or hearing them at least.
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Edgy DC
Apr 21 2009 11:40 AM
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It's sort of the pound of cure in place of an ounce of prevention, of course, and when you're scrambling to listent to fans as an afterthought, you get the most reacitionary fans, not the most thoughtful.
You get Francessa listeners.
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John Cougar Lunchbucket
Apr 21 2009 12:21 PM
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The Post is also taking credit for it.
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Edgy DC
Apr 21 2009 12:44 PM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 21 2009 12:55 PM
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Of course.
I think we should take credit.
I woke up singing this:
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/iPuOGaoDeIE&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/iPuOGaoDeIE&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
Begin the day with a friendly voice
Bob Murphy or Ralph Kiner
Plays that song; there’s nothing finer
And that “Meet the Mets” makes your game-day mood
Off on your way, hit the GCP
Shea appears on the horizon
Lifelong friend comes into your eyes and
Years of happy recaps fill your happy solitude
<i>Concrete blue walkways crackle with life
Carnival colors bristle with the energy
Public feedback: “Preserve our magic!”
It’s a gift beyond price, and it’s almost free</i>
All these stupid assholes making modern stadiums
Can still preserve the history
Not so tough a mystery
It's really just a question of your honesty
Yeah, Your honesty
One likes to believe it’s still about the ballgame
But political buy-ins
And endless corporate tie-ins
Shatter the illusion of integrity
<i>Corporate boardrooms crackle with death
Shortsighted management echo schemes of synergy
Emotionless partners build a soul-less mallpark
Forget about the faithful; it’s insanity!<i>
(Bass Solo!)
<blockquote>(Reggae Bridge)
For the words of the Doctor were written on the stadium wall
Mets baseball!
But the park
Is now the province
Of salesmen
Of Salesmen
OF SALESMEN!</blockquote>(Cue big fat Alex Lifeson to play us out)
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John Cougar Lunchbucket
Apr 21 2009 12:53 PM
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Nice
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metirish
Apr 21 2009 01:02 PM
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Just wondering here ....
1) Do Mets fan care too much about stuff like this , Doc's signature , no HOF in the park ect?
2) Are Mets fans an ungrateful lot , get a new park and still bitching.
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soupcan
Apr 21 2009 01:10 PM
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I don't give a crap either way about this and if pressed I'd side with management.
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John Cougar Lunchbucket
Apr 21 2009 01:41 PM
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I was kind of shocked to learn that they hadn't done a Mets HOF for this park in a "I knew they were ignorant but this ignorant?" kind of way, but I didn't get angry about it until I read Jeffy's hopelessly casual remarks about it, "oh, sure, we'll throw something together but it's not like we have the kind of room for this..." bullshit.
At that point it was more than just awesome ignorance -- itself pretty much inexcuseable -- but almost crossing over to contempt for the fans.
It's a shame that the Gooden sig controversy is the thing that brings this out, because it is a small overrated thing, and it gives them an easy peg from which to hang their fake concern.
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seawolf17
Apr 21 2009 02:07 PM
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I think JCL's right. All we've ever asked is for the team to recognize their own fucking history. Never mind the Giants or the Dodgers, it's not about them, and it's not even about Jackie Robinson. It's okay if your Mets history piece isn't open right away; just don't lie to us, or brush our concerns aside. Tell us you have a grand, sweeping plan to bring back all those great memories, and due to the construction schedule, you didn't have time to implement it all. We'll buy that, as long as you follow through.
But I guess there's the rub; maybe they don't intend to follow through. They figured that like sheep, we'd eat up the new stadium at whatever prices they wanted to pay, gaga over all the fancy new amenities. It's like they got so convinced by the media -- and by themselves, too, I guess -- that Shea Stadium was a piece of crap and that we'd be so thrilled to be rid of it that we'd just be enthralled by the new park. They probably figured they could just toss the retired numbers up there on the wall and call it a day.
Well, guess what? We're Mets fans. We love the Doug Flynns and Kevin McReynoldses and Jerry Fucking Grotes. Remember when they put up all the cool murals on the walls at Shea? Shit, I loved that. Every time they showed one during a broadcast, during some anecdote from Gary or Keith or Ron or whoever, it brought all those memories back.
I know we're not the Yankees; I don't want us to be the Yankees. I want us to be the Mets... my Mets, the team I've watched and loved for twenty-five-plus years. I just don't know what's so bad about recognizing that the people who pay their fucking salaries and allow them to drive Lexuses want that too. Guess what, fellas? I grew up in Shea Stadium. That was home to me, even if I only went once or twice a year. And the reason it was home was because of everything Mets: the murals, the banners, the colors, the Tommie Agee marker, the apple, all of it. I didn't even have a problem with the HOF busts being completely inaccessible to the common man; it was something of an honor to be allowed in there, and I was okay with that, because I felt like once in a while, it was worth the money and time outlay to get the chance to check them out, to make that history part of my history.
Eff Francesa, but he's right; if we don't agree with what they're doing, then don't buy into it. And I'm not; I have no plans to go to Citi Field this year, nor do I foresee myself doing so. I can't afford it. I'll watch them on TV, listen to the radio, discuss them here in the Pool.
Just don't lie to me, Jeff and Fred and Jay. Tell me you didn't agree with what Doc did, but you're looking at other ways to honor alumni. They acted like petulant schoolmarms, demanding that the offending graffiti be expunged. Did they miss the fact that the people -- your fucking high-end clientele, by the way -- went crazy and loved it, taking pictures next to it? Shouldn't that have been a clue that maybe you were on to something there? Instead, we get a knee-jerk reaction that they HAD to know would irritate us, and then act all surprised when the Internet revolts.
Ugh.
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Edgy DC
Apr 21 2009 02:11 PM
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You got your cupholders, you ungrateful shits. What more do you want?
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Swan Swan H
Apr 21 2009 02:25 PM
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Seawolf, I disagree with a lot of what you said, but opinion is opinion. However, about the 'Can't Afford It' part - Sunday 4/26 against the Nats - $15 a pop. The following Monday against your division leading Florida Marlins - $11 per. That's what it costs to see a crappy movie on a weeknight.
I apologize for offending you if you honestly can't afford that, and I understand that a lot of folks can't, but that hardly seems unreasonable.
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seawolf17
Apr 21 2009 02:32 PM
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="Swan Swan H":1yu07vce]Seawolf, I disagree with a lot of what you said, but opinion is opinion. However, about the 'Can't Afford It' part - Sunday 4/26 against the Nats - $15 a pop. The following Monday against your division leading Florida Marlins - $11 per. That's what it costs to see a crappy movie on a weeknight.
I apologize for offending you if you honestly can't afford that, and I understand that a lot of folks can't, but that hardly seems unreasonable.[/quote:1yu07vce]
No offense taken; I look at the total cost of four tickets, parking/gas for a 90-minute ride plus traffic, plus food... and that's a $150 night in the cheap seats. With two small kids, that's a major expense for us.
Like I said, I only went to one or two games a year anyway, so it's not like they're losing money if I don't go.
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metsmarathon
Apr 21 2009 02:43 PM
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to be clear, that'd still be the case if shea were standing and citi were a parking lot, right?
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Swan Swan H
Apr 21 2009 02:46 PM
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I get that. We pack lunch just about every time we go, though we have been sampling the new stuff. Still bringing in bottles of water and soda, rather than pay the crazy prices. By June we'll be bagging sandwiches from home again, I'm sure.
I've just seen a ton of stories about ticket prices, and I really believe it's scaring a lot of people away, folks who think they can't get a ticket for under $100 so they don't bother checking.
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Ashie62
Apr 21 2009 02:48 PM
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="Swan Swan H":2knvdr8o]Seawolf, I disagree with a lot of what you said, but opinion is opinion. However, about the 'Can't Afford It' part - Sunday 4/26 against the Nats - $15 a pop. The following Monday against your division leading Florida Marlins - $11 per. That's what it costs to see a crappy movie on a weeknight.
I apologize for offending you if you honestly can't afford that, and I understand that a lot of folks can't, but that hardly seems unreasonable.[/quote:2knvdr8o]
You can enjoy your world class citifield on SNY on basic cable. Same cost as a cheap movie? Are you nuts??? 2 Train rides, 2 subway rides, some food..It's a luxury to many of us.
As far as Gooden goes..look the guy got sandbagged by an employee with a sharpie and did what comes naturally, sign something.
If they want to erase it..do it quietly and respect Doc...kinda like the respect that is shown to jackie Robinson.
Enough with the rotunda..its' there, its not leaving..We're Mets fans..we're used to second class status from management..
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seawolf17
Apr 21 2009 02:53 PM
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="metsmarathon":x5q3u656]to be clear, that'd still be the case if shea were standing and citi were a parking lot, right?[/quote:x5q3u656]
Yes. We really don't go to games; never have. Once, maybe twice if a friend can score me free tickets.
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Nymr83
Apr 21 2009 02:55 PM
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I know i've said this before but i have to harp on it again here: unlike its competitiors (hey mr. dolan! screw you!) the mets allow outside food to be brought in to the stadium, they'll let pretty much anything in as long as it is (or even appears to be) non-alcoholic and not in a glass bottle, so i dont think its fair to say that food is part of the mandatory cost of going to a game.
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soupcan
Apr 21 2009 03:15 PM
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="Ashie62":61fwbka1]If they want to erase it..do it quietly and respect Doc...kinda like the respect that is shown to jackie Robinson.
Enough with the rotunda..its' there, its not leaving..We're Mets fans..we're used to second class status from management..[/quote:61fwbka1]
Doc Gooden ain't no Jackie Robinson.
As to the Ebbets Field / Jackie Robinson / Dodger thing -
Is it so hard to understand that they are honoring the man and not the ballplayer? The guy happened to play for the Dodgers but he was a whole lot more than just a ballplayer.
The chose to pattern the stadium after Ebbets Field, big deal. They did the same thing in Milwaukee, where's the uproar there? Guess what - there isn't any.
Personally, if and when Citi Group ceases to exist and there comes a time when sports arenas revert back to being named in honor of certain individuals, I'd think 'Jackie Robinson Field' would be an excellent choice.
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Benjamin Grimm
Apr 21 2009 03:33 PM
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And there's a distinction (at least, I see one) between the Los Angeles Dodgers (an opposing team) and the Brooklyn Dodgers, an ancestor of the Mets, as are the New York Giants.
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Vic Sage
Apr 22 2009 09:05 AM
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I don't object to the "Robinson Rotunda" as such, or the Ebbets homage at all. What bothers me is that, in the absence of any NYGiants references (other than the black and orange outfield wall colors), or, for that matter, any Mets references (going so far as to react badly to the adhoc Gooden graffiti situation), the Dodger stuff is just so disproportionate.
Yes, Jackie Robinson is worthy of tribute, but he's just as worthy of tribute in every major league city in America. I love the big screen tvs in the rotunda showing Robinson clips, and the big 42 is fine, and his words and philosophy are inspiring, but couldn't the rotunda have also celebrated Roberto Clemente (another player who never had anything whatsoever to do with the Mets), who is a revered player in the Latin community (very big in NYC), who died while bringing disaster relief to Nicaragua. Or a Giants great like Willie Mays, who at least ended his career back here in NYC.
If it wasn't JUST about Robinson and Ebbetts field, i don't think many fans would have a problem. But so far, thats all it is, and so the Gooden thing gets overblown (by both sides), and the issue about their plans for a Mets HOF become more pressing and makes them look even worse.
New building... same ole Mets.
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Vic Sage
Apr 22 2009 09:11 AM
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AVI
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Edgy DC
Apr 22 2009 09:15 AM
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As far as Mays and Clemente, Clemente was an excellent player and a fine man who died in a charitable enterprise and his legacy is worthy of honor. But I think it's fair that Robinson is a transcendent and transformational figure and I think his legacy is worthy of a singular honor.
And New York was big part of that legacy, so it's appropriate that the honor be centered here.
As far as Giants vs. Dodgers, a façade is a façade Ebbets had a handsome one and they decided to reference it. I went on record at the time saying that it looks out of place in a big parking lot instead of a neighborhood street corner, but here we are. If the outfield walls and the seat colors aren't enough of a Polo grounds counterbalance, I think we're getting a little beancounty regarding the issue of Dodgers/Giants equity. Ebbets theme outside. Polo Grounds theme inside. Neither hopefully so overwhelming that it won't be a Mets stadium when all is said and done.
Your post yesterday seemed to give a Feh toward the Dodger/Giant thing.
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HahnSolo
Apr 22 2009 09:23 AM
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I have said that I like the Rotunda. I think it is classy, and I think if you really want to avoid the Jackie stuff on your way through you can.
So I'm not going to get into "they should have done this, they should have also honored this guy...."
But to Edgy's point, I really wonder if the green seats were specifically done to mimic the Polo Grounds, or they just decided that dark green was the optimal seat color, and then someone figured out "hey, that's the same color as the PG." I believe the latter.
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Vic Sage
Apr 22 2009 09:32 AM
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| ]Your post yesterday seemed to give a Feh toward the Dodger/Giant thing |
it's really not that big issue to me, and i think "feh" pretty well sums up my attitude. I just think its become a bigger issue to the public because of the dunderheaded approach ownership has taken to honoring the Mets' own legacy.
I'm not saying the necessarily SHOULD have built a tribute to Clemente or Mays, particularly, but its disproportionate to recognize to the extent they have non-Mets history in the new Mets building, or even to recognize 1 of their two progenitor franchises disproprtionately, without any recognition at all of their own history.
Frankly, i'm more annoyed that the building sacrifices sightlines for "intimacy".
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batmagadanleadoff
Apr 22 2009 09:36 AM
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="HahnSolo":2b35ft50]I have said that I like the Rotunda. I think it is classy, and I think if you really want to avoid the Jackie stuff on your way through you can.[/quote:2b35ft50]
If you don't like it, don't look at it. Not much consolation to someone less than thrilled with the JR Rotunda. The aesthetics is not a problem.
="HahnSolo":2b35ft50] I really wonder if the green seats were specifically done to mimic the Polo Grounds, or they just decided that dark green was the optimal seat color, and then someone figured out "hey, that's the same color as the PG." I believe the latter.[/quote:2b35ft50]
I'm in the convenient rationalization after the fact camp, myself.
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G-Fafif
Apr 22 2009 09:48 AM
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="HahnSolo":1ayohpol]I really wonder if the green seats were specifically done to mimic the Polo Grounds, or they just decided that dark green was the optimal seat color, and then someone figured out "hey, that's the same color as the PG." I believe the latter.[/quote:1ayohpol]
Bingo. The green seats were in the plans from Day One and were never connected to the PG until relatively late in the game. The walls aren't any kind of explicit homage either from what I can tell. They're just black with orange numbers and, for my money, stupefyingly unattractive.
There was supposed to be a "Coogan's Landing," in left field, but that got left on the drawing board. It was the only specific Polo Grounds reference planned. It sits in Press Release Park with the Orchard and the East Side, two other names mentioned early on that fell by the wayside.
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metsguyinmichigan
Apr 22 2009 10:00 AM
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I'm OK with not doing a ton with the Giants. They kind of pay tribute every time they put on a cap with that logo.
I think this thing with Gooden became a big deal because there are media types there who are just waiting to pounce and condemn the Mets. If Don Mattingly did the same thing at the Death Star, I suspect the coverage would have been different.
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Edgy DC
Apr 22 2009 10:06 AM
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I'mnot sure how the green seats being there from Day One particularly undercuts the Mets' contention. Moreover, I think the conflating of the Dodgers/Giants thing with the lack-of-Mets-history thing is undermining the latter point.
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G-Fafif
Apr 22 2009 10:14 AM
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="Edgy DC":3hs8m27h]I'mnot sure how the green seats being there from Day One particularly undercuts the Mets' contention. Moreover, I think the conflating of the Dodgers/Giants thing with the lack-of-Mets-history thing is undermining the latter point.[/quote:3hs8m27h]
The seats are green because somebody liked the color, which is fine. Sometimes a green seat is just a green seat. The exterior and rotunda at 120-01 Roosevelt Avenue exist as they do because they existed that way at 55 Sullivan Place.
Agreed Dodgers/Giants ratio is not relevant, specifically, to the lack of Metsiana. It just accents how skewed the sense of heritage informing this park is.
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G-Fafif
Apr 22 2009 10:22 AM
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="metsguyinmichigan":2ec4je5k]I'm OK with not doing a ton with the Giants. They kind of pay tribute every time they put on a cap with that logo.
I think this thing with Gooden became a big deal because there are media types there who are just waiting to pounce and condemn the Mets. If Don Mattingly did the same thing at the Death Star, I suspect the coverage would have been different.[/quote:2ec4je5k]
If this place had been designed to mimic the Polo Grounds, if there was a Stoneham Club, if a Christy Matthewson Plaza welcomed you -- and there was as little about the Mets informing the place and zero about the Dodgers -- it would be as creepy and misguided as the pervasive presence of the Ebbets fetish.
The Mets deserved the pouncing and condemnation on Gooden for their reaction and overreaction. How they lacked the presence of mind to make lemonade out of lemons is indicative of the lack of imagination that made their default stadium an aping of someone else's. And if the MFYs treated Mattingly's hypothetical wall signature as the Mets initially did, they'd hear about it, too. Not an issue for the MFYs since they set up a museum with nearly 700 baseballs autographed by MFY players and personalities.
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batmagadanleadoff
Apr 22 2009 10:44 AM
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="G-Fafif":1pl4ukac]The seats are green because somebody liked the color, which is fine. Sometimes a green seat is just a green seat.[/quote:1pl4ukac]
This is exactly what I thought the instant I skeptically read the Mets propaganda about how green was supposedly for the Polo Grounds. It'd be keen if Citi Field is lacking in PG references because the stadium once housed the hated MFY's. Of course, the PG's were also home to our Mets and so there'd be some nose cutting face-spiting going on here, but this thread is all about the Mets ignoring their own heritage. (Not that I believe the MFY angle that I invented just for the sake of this post).
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Benjamin Grimm
Apr 22 2009 11:18 AM
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You know, if they don't cover Doc's signature with plexiglass, it's only a matter of time before someone adds another line to it:
87 DRUG SUSPENSION
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Edgy DC
Apr 22 2009 11:20 AM
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See, that's why you can't quit your Mets jones. I won't allow it.
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Benjamin Grimm
Apr 22 2009 11:29 AM
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I'll try to hang in there, then.
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G-Fafif
Apr 22 2009 11:30 AM
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="batmagadanleadoff":1zlf960a]It'd be keen if Citi Field is lacking in PG references because the stadium once housed the hated MFY's. [/quote:1zlf960a]
In which case, forget Shea and its clutch of poorly hosted "home games" in '74, '75 and '98.
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soupcan
Apr 22 2009 11:32 AM
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="metsguyinmichigan":bz15gf10]I'm OK with not doing a ton with the Giants. They kind of pay tribute every time they put on a cap with that logo.[/quote:bz15gf10]
That's an excellent point.
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batmagadanleadoff
Apr 22 2009 04:04 PM
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="soupcan":2n1x70ze]="metsguyinmichigan":2n1x70ze]I'm OK with not doing a ton with the Giants. They kind of pay tribute every time they put on a cap with that logo.[/quote:2n1x70ze]
That's an excellent point.[/quote:2n1x70ze]
Except that the Dodgers also get Met uni love from the color blue.
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Ashie62
Apr 22 2009 04:09 PM
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="soupcan":2tdnfklr]="Ashie62":2tdnfklr]If they want to erase it..do it quietly and respect Doc...kinda like the respect that is shown to jackie Robinson.
Enough with the rotunda..its' there, its not leaving..We're Mets fans..we're used to second class status from management..[/quote:2tdnfklr][/quote:2tdnfklr]
Doc Gooden ain't no Jackie Robinson.
All men are created equal
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Met Hunter
Apr 22 2009 07:08 PM
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="metsguyinmichigan":60pwhhxj]I'm OK with not doing a ton with the Giants. They kind of pay tribute every time they put on a cap with that logo.
[/quote:60pwhhxj]
I'd be ok with a John McGraw tribute somewhere in the rotunda. Especially knowing that Mrs. McGraw, at the closing of the Polo Grounds, (a place the Mets actually played) after being asked how her husband would feel, said "He's rolling over in his grave".
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metsguyinmichigan
Apr 22 2009 07:49 PM
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When and if they get to a Mets Hall of Fame, and if it were of decent size, I think it would be appropriate for a room devoted to National League baseball in New York. Then you could give poople like McGraw, Christy Mathewson, Mel Ott, Monte Irvin and Willie Mays their proper New York Love, along with the usual Dodger suspects like Campy, Pee Wee, Ersk.
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Swan Swan H
Apr 22 2009 07:57 PM
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Xerox is a big sponsor this year. Get them on the blower and start working on some interactive stuff for the new HOF. Barter, boys, get this thing moving.
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Frayed Knot
Apr 22 2009 07:59 PM
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="metsguyinmichigan":3ix69awn]When and if they get to a Mets Hall of Fame, and if it were of decent size, I think it would be appropriate for a room devoted to National League baseball in New York. Then you could give poople like McGraw, Christy Mathewson, Mel Ott, Monte Irvin and Willie Mays their proper New York Love, along with the usual Dodger suspects like Campy, Pee Wee, Ersk.[/quote:3ix69awn]
We don't have room for that sort of stuff.
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Ashie62
Apr 22 2009 08:15 PM
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Wouldn't adding NY Giants stuff on top of Dodger stuff on top of Mets stuff with more Mets stuff coming be too much stuff?
If a woodchuck could chuck stuff.
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G-Fafif
Apr 22 2009 08:51 PM
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There's probably some space where the 2009 World Champions pennant was supposed to go.
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Edgy DC
Apr 22 2009 09:40 PM
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="metsguyinmichigan":1nasyirq]When and if they get to a Mets Hall of Fame, and if it were of decent size, I think it would be appropriate for a room devoted to National League baseball in New York. Then you could give poople like McGraw, Christy Mathewson, Mel Ott, Monte Irvin and Willie Mays their proper New York Love, along with the usual Dodger suspects like Campy, Pee Wee, Ersk.[/quote:1nasyirq]
Isn't this the exact opposite of what people are decrying?
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soupcan
Apr 23 2009 07:50 AM
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="batmagadanleadoff":dzaavb83]="soupcan":dzaavb83]="metsguyinmichigan":dzaavb83]I'm OK with not doing a ton with the Giants. They kind of pay tribute every time they put on a cap with that logo.[/quote:dzaavb83]
That's an excellent point.[/quote:dzaavb83]
Except that the Dodgers also get Met uni love from the color blue.[/quote:dzaavb83]
Do people look at the 'W' on the Nats cap and think of the Senators (yes) or do they look at the red cap and think of the Expos (no)?
The only people that know that the Mets orange and blue are from the Dodgers and Giants are the more-than-fair-weather Mets fans. The interlocking 'NY' is a much more identifiable symbol of the New York Giants than the blue (which is a different shade of blue) of the Dodgers.
="Ashie62":dzaavb83]="soupcan":dzaavb83]="Ashie62":dzaavb83]
If they want to erase it..do it quietly and respect Doc...kinda like the respect that is shown to jackie Robinson.
Enough with the rotunda..its' there, its not leaving..We're Mets fans..we're used to second class status from management.. [/quote:dzaavb83]
Doc Gooden ain't no Jackie Robinson. [/quote:dzaavb83]
All men are created equal[/quote:dzaavb83]
But some men are more equal than others.
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batmagadanleadoff
Apr 23 2009 08:55 AM
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="G-Fafif":2nv25y2s]="batmagadanleadoff":2nv25y2s]It'd be keen if Citi Field is lacking in PG references because the stadium once housed the hated MFY's. [/quote:2nv25y2s]
In which case, forget Shea and its clutch of poorly hosted "home games" in '74, '75 and '98.[/quote:2nv25y2s]
Well ... like I said ... this thread is about the Mets ignoring their own history.
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soupcan
Apr 23 2009 10:51 AM
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]
April 24, 2009
Some Fans Feel New Home Ignores the Old Mets
By KEN BELSON
Where have you gone, Tug McGraw? Apparently, to the windswept left-field entrance of Citi Field.
The Mets have taken a lot heat from fans angry about the ticket prices and the obstructed views at Citi Field. A vocal minority of fans have also complained that the new $800 million ballpark does not do enough to honor the team’s history.
“The Mets have always been a populist ball club; ‘Bring the kiddies, bring the wife,’ everyman stars like Ed Kranepool, sign day, etc.,” James Conley, a Mets fan, said in an e-mail message. “The best way to recognize the history of the team is to recognize the close connection to the fan base the Mets club has always enjoyed.”
Where, other fans complain, are the banners that used to hang inside Shea that could be seen from the escalators? (They were sold at auction.) What happened to the 1969 photo montage that adorned the outside of the right-field stands? (Gone like the stadium.) Where is the bronze statue of Mike Piazza hitting his famous home run in September 2001? (Not on the drawing board yet.)
The Mets do nod to their past. On the left-field side of the stadium, there are a dozen or so black-and-white banners of Stengel and Hodges, Tom and Tug, Darryl and Dykstra and other Mets. They are classy photos, but seen by only a fraction of the fans since most people enter through the rotunda near the subway station.
The four retired numbers hang on the left-field fence, and the team’s championship flags fly on poles in right field. The old home run apple sits near a picnic area in right field, and the skyline from the old scoreboard is above the Shake Shack.
The 18,000 bricks on the Fan Walk are touching, and the Jackie Robinson Rotunda is a high-minded tribute, even if Robinson never played for the Mets.
But some fans are irked by the team’s decision to model Citi Field after Ebbets Field. (The Dodgers left New York long before many of them were born.) A handful of other fans wish the Mets did more to honor the Giants and the Polo Grounds.
The Mets are aware of these complaints, including the chatter on sports radio stations. But opening the stadium on time took precedence over adornments.
“It was something we always intended, but it wasn’t given a priority,” said Dave Howard, the Mets’ vice president for operations.
Howard said the team was working to add more memorabilia, including a display of Topps baseball cards of Mets from each year since 1962. Banners like the ones outside the stadium could be hung on the concourses inside.
The busts in the team’s hall of fame, which has not added a member since 2002, could be replaced by plaques with relief sculptures and descriptions. Life-size statues, like the ones at AT&T Park and Busch Stadium, are possible.
These additions will take time, though, which means the Mets will have to endure more taunts from their fans. Howard is sanguine.
“I’m never surprised and always encouraged by the passion of Met fans,” he said. “It’s great that people care this much and we listen to it.” |
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John Cougar Lunchbucket
Apr 23 2009 10:56 AM
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I can almost see Howard reading his quotes in the paper and saying "I think they bought it."
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G-Fafif
Apr 23 2009 01:20 PM
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It is great people care this much. I doubt they listen to it.
Now to get the passion of the players to match the passion of the fans.
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seawolf17
Apr 23 2009 01:48 PM
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="nytimes":wyzq4ko4]including a display of Topps baseball cards of Mets from each year since 1962[/quote:wyzq4ko4]
Ooh, I'd be thrilled with that, considering I'm working on that Mets Topps run myself.
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SteveJRogers
Apr 23 2009 04:12 PM
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| ]“The Mets have always been a populist ball club; ‘Bring the kiddies, bring the wife,’ everyman stars like Ed Kranepool, sign day, etc.,” James Conley, a Mets fan, said in an e-mail message. “The best way to recognize the history of the team is to recognize the close connection to the fan base the Mets club has always enjoyed.” |
I like this fellow's passion in terms of emailing The New York Times and all, but...
Well for one, it was called "Banner Day."
And second, even though I'm typing this on a fourm named in his honor, why is it that Kranepool, who barely started most of the time he was a Met, always gets spotlighted as the symbol of the franchise?
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Edgy DC
Apr 23 2009 04:45 PM
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He doesn't always get spotlighted as a symbol of the franchise.
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Kong76
Apr 23 2009 05:15 PM
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I caught up three pages, good thread.
Nice job with The Spirit of Metsio.
EDC: He doesn't always get spotlighted as a symbol of the franchise <<<
Jeets has 20/20 vision, the rest of the world is wearing bifocals.
(loosely from some movie that I can't think of right now, Paul Newman?)
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