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Trade Reyes?

metirish May 15 2009 10:46 AM

I really , really dislike John Harper but couldn't resit reading his column today. ] Mets at crossroads with erratic shortstop Jose Reyes The myth the Mets have tried to sell everyone the last couple of years is that Jose Reyes is still young, that he'll stop making bonehead plays when he matures as a major leaguer. Only it's faulty logic any way you want to dissect it. For one thing, in baseball terms Reyes is not young at all anymore. He'll be 26 in a few weeks, he's been in the major leagues for seven seasons, and it's not as if he came to the game late. He grew up playing it in the Dominican Republic, and, organized or not, that's a scenario scouts say has produced a lot of savvy ballplayers. More to the point, baseball instincts aren't something that necessarily come with maturity. Bernie Williams was bright and classy, but right to the end of his career, he ran the bases as if trying to solve a crossword puzzle. In short, for all of his wondrous talent, Reyes - who sat out Thursday night's game with stiffness in his right calf - may never have the feel for the game that would complete the package and make him one of the absolute best players in baseball. At some point, then, the Mets may have to seriously consider the question of whether Reyes' penchant for costly mistakes outweighs his game-changing ability. Depending how this season plays out, trading Reyes may be the best way to remake a ballclub that leads the world in exasperating its fan base. I'm not saying the Mets can't win with Reyes. When Reyes is hot with the bat and thinking straight, we've seen what a force he can be, and maybe he will make all of this talk moot by leading the Mets deep into October this season. But if they miss the playoffs again, on the heels of their two September collapses, major changes have to be made, and Reyes would be the most obvious place to start, in part because he would bring the most return value in a trade. "I doubt Omar (Minaya) would do it because it's such a high-risk move, trading that kind of talent," a rival GM said yesterday. "But if they don't get it done this year, I would think they'd have to do something fairly dramatic. "You could get an impact hitter or maybe a front-end starter for Reyes, and then go out and get a shortstop. Last winter a guy like Orlando Cabrera was out there forever. Obviously he doesn't have the same talent, but he's a heady player and that's what you want from your shortstop." Reyes hasn't answered that description often enough. His smorgasbord of blunders against the Braves this week once again put the issue in neon lights. For example: the troubling part about Reyes' misplay on the slow ground ball up the middle that led to Monday night's loss was that he seemed to be rushing the play, as if he was unaware that he had all day to throw out Brian McCann running to first. Tuesday night he was dead wrong to try for third on his eighth-inning double to left-center because he had absolutely no chance of making it. Reyes himself admitted he was running with his head down, seemingly more concerned with adding to his legacy as a triples machine than trying to win the game. And what in the world was he thinking in Wednesday's loss when he tried to advance from second to third on Luis Castillo's eighth-inning ground ball to short with the Mets again trailing by a run? That's as basic as it gets. On top of these types of mistakes, Reyes has hit .243 and .214 the last two Septembers when the Mets were collapsing, and scouts say the bigger the situation, the more likely pitchers will take advantage of his overaggressiveness and get him out with changeups. Finally, there is the type of immaturity that surfaced in the 12th inning on Wednesday when he failed to run hard out of the batter's box on his double that he thought would go into the seats. Handling such issues is a delicate matter for the Mets since Reyes seemed to pout when Willie Randolph tried to discipline him for a lack of hustle in 2007. Now Jerry Manuel seems to be careful not to criticize him publicly, while saying he is addressing such matters in private. Perhaps all of this can be boiled down to comments Jose Valentin made when I interviewed him in spring training about the possibility that Manuel might hit Reyes third instead of leadoff. Valentin, a savvy player who mentored Reyes in 2006 as the Mets' second baseman, suggested it could be a big mistake. "When he's not doing well offensively he lets it affect him defensively," said Valentin. "He cares the most about stealing bases, and if he's hitting third and he gets on base with two outs, you might not want him to run because you want your No. 4 hitter swinging the bat. "Those are the kinds of things you would need to talk to Jose about, because he doesn't always understand the situation." That seemed to be a nice way of saying that Reyes just doesn't get it. This week has been a reminder that the Mets may not be able to live with such a notion forever jharper@nydailynews.com My question to you is this : What would you expect back in return for Reyes? I don't think that the Mets are at a crossroads as the headline implies.

Nymr83 May 15 2009 10:59 AM

]I really , really dislike John Harper but couldn't resit reading his column today. i usually cant resist reading any baseball article that pops up, but alot of them suck. its hard to trade Reyes mid-season unless Wilmer Flores is magically going to skip 3 (4?) levels and produce right away. but if the mets were goig to do so I'd expect an ace pitcher, like Peavy.

John Cougar Lunchbucket May 15 2009 11:06 AM

Harper is horrible. You can just tell he sits down at the keyboard without anything to say most days and when he finally puts words on paper, there's no conviction behind them. Awful lot of the words "may" and "seem" in his columns, today and everyday.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 15 2009 11:18 AM

="Nymr83"] ]I really , really dislike John Harper but couldn't resit reading his column today. i usually cant resist reading any baseball article that pops up, but alot of them suck. its hard to trade Reyes mid-season unless Wilmer Flores is magically going to skip 3 (4?) levels and produce right away. but if the mets were goig to do so I'd expect an ace pitcher, like Peavy. I think Reyes and, say, Holt gets it done. (And as much as I love the not-kid, I'd like that team's chances a bit more this year.)

Kong76 May 15 2009 11:27 AM

I saw that on top of the back page on our receptionist's desk and laughed. I ain't reading a sentence of it and add a hearty Fuck Harper.

Fman99 May 15 2009 12:00 PM

Reason #367253324234346546 to ignore any Mets story published by a New York media conglomerate. I'll stick to wordy blogs, chatty RSS feeds and bawdy message boards for my knowledge and analysis, thanks.

Edgy DC May 15 2009 12:04 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on May 15 2009 12:18 PM

="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]I think Reyes and, say, Holt gets it done. (And as much as I love the not-kid, I'd like that team's chances a bit more this year.) Really? It's amazing how quickly we've gone from Alex Cora sucks to Start Alex Cora. After the 2005 season, saladoc was trying to drum up a Jose Reyes deathwatch. I tried to point out then that Reyes had probably just put up the best offensive season of any Met shortstop ever. The only difference now is that he's put up the four best offensive seasons of any Met shortstop ever. Have we been in the air conditioning so long that we've forgotten what the desert feels like? The guy needs a talking to and I hope he gets one. But I don't want to read the likes of John Harper fanning grumpiness and convincing people that addition by a huge chunk of subtraction is going to cure anything.

Number 6 May 15 2009 12:07 PM

All of the criticism and talk of dumping Reyes has to have behind it the assumption that we could somehow get someone better or equal to him. That player doesn't exist, or is locked up long-term by whomever is fortunate enough to have him. I get annoyed at Jose at times, but get out of the sports-argument vacuum and it's pretty damn obvious how good he is.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 15 2009 12:15 PM

="Edgy DC"] ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]I think Reyes and, say, Holt gets it done. (And as much as I love the not-kid, I'd like that team's chances a bit more this year.) Really? It's amazing how we've gone from Alex Cora sucks to Start Alex Cora. After the 2005 season, saladoc was trying to drum up a Jose Reyes deathwatch. I tried to point out then that Reyes had probably just put up the best offensive season of any Met shortstop. The only difference now is that he's put up the four best offensive seasons of any Met shortstop ever. Have we been in the air conditioning so long that we've forgotten what the desert feels like? The guy needs a talking to and I hope he gets one. But I don't want to read the likes of John Harper fanning flames and convincing people that addition by a huge chunk of subtraction is going to cure anything. Not so much addition-by-subtraction... but more of a hypothetical addition in another column. To me, the gain we'd get going from 5th slot to Peavy is significantly greater-- or at least more impactful-- than the on-field hit we'd take going from JoseX4 to a 60-80 percentile SS. (Assuming the trade were to go down, say, tomorrow... Was thinking Cora for right now, with possible movement of, say, Maine/Perez for an Orlando Cabrera-type down the road.) To be clear, I'm not a Harper guy by any means, and I don't necessarily buy into his premise here. The question does intrigue-- I'm considering it as mental exercise (and relief from a fairly tense work environment): no more, no less.

Edgy DC May 15 2009 12:21 PM

I don't think we'll be getting 60-80% performance from Cora or anybody over the life of what would have been Reyes' tenure, and I don't think All-Star starting pitching is worth giving up All-Star hitting, because the latter is far-less ephemeral. OE: And All Start starting pitching gives us 60 fewer innings than it used to.

Ashie62 May 15 2009 12:41 PM

You can all take this for what its' worth and I believe I've seen this in a different thread here. I work for a large NY based sports magazine that employs Jon Heyman. Heyman has a very close relationship with Scott Boras to the point where when Boras wants to get a rumor out or provide some disinformation he will provide it to Heyman to get it into the media. Having said this it is my opinion from the office that the idea of Reyes being traded is not far fetched. John Harper is a hack who spent about 10 years "covering" sports for the Morristown NJ Daily Record and not someone who I can conceive is in the loop. However, Heyman is in the loop and usually where there is smoke sometimes there is fire.

Edgy DC May 15 2009 12:43 PM

I don't believe such a trade is far-fetched so much as ill-advised to actively pursue. The idea that Heyman is a tool --- also not far-fetched.

Nymr83 May 15 2009 12:55 PM

]and usually where there is smoke sometimes there is fire if you're going to write in cliches at least make sense.

Benjamin Grimm May 15 2009 12:57 PM

="Edgy DC":33a6hfvp] After the 2005 season, saladoc was trying to drum up a Jose Reyes deathwatch. [/quote:33a6hfvp] Here it is. It ran from April to August of 2006: <a href="http://archives.cranepoolforum.net/3100/f1_t3130.shtml" target="_new"><B>Jose Reyes Deathwatch</b></a> LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 15 2009 12:59 PM ="Edgy DC"]I don't think we'll be getting 60-80% performance from Cora or anybody over the life of what would have been Reyes' tenure, and I don't think All-Star starting pitching is worth giving up All-Star hitting, because the latter is far-less ephemeral. To clarify: I meant 60th percentILE, as in "someone in the top 40 percent of ML shortstops." I don't expect us to get that much of JoseX4's production out of any one man's body, unless that man is Hanley Ramirez or, say, Undead Wilmer Flores. ]OE: And All Start starting pitching gives us 60 fewer innings than it used to. True dat. In Manuel's hands, maybe less. Edgy DC May 15 2009 12:59 PM ="Ashie62":3np8rhf0]I work for a large NY based sports magazine that employs Jon Heyman.[/quote:3np8rhf0] I seem to recall a guy with this same C.V. bitching me out and then quitting the forum. Let me know if you run into him. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 15 2009 01:01 PM ="Ashie62":10ilsobv] I work for a large NY based sports magazine that employs Jon Heyman. Heyman has a very close relationship with Scott Boras to the point where when Boras wants to get a rumor out or provide some disinformation he will provide it to Heyman to get it into the media. [/quote:10ilsobv] Wait, what? Huh? WHAT? No, I don't believe it. I CAN'T BELIEVE IT. F*CK YOU, MAN-- F*CK YOU AND YOUR LIES! /Acting Benjamin Grimm May 15 2009 01:01 PM You mean the guy in the deathwatch thread who declared the Mets champions in June of 2006? RealityChuck May 15 2009 01:54 PM Must be a slow news day. The article has now been added to the dictionary as an illustration for the word "preposterous." Nymr83 May 15 2009 02:38 PM ="Benjamin Grimm":dkcptc1g]You mean the guy in the deathwatch thread who declared the Mets champions in June of 2006?[/quote:dkcptc1g] i dont have to look to know that cleon=ashie metirish May 15 2009 02:41 PM It's quite fun to read back over that thread . Frayed Knot May 15 2009 02:46 PM ="Benjamin Grimm":yl8zzory] ="Edgy DC":yl8zzory] After the 2005 season, saladoc was trying to drum up a Jose Reyes deathwatch. [/quote:yl8zzory] Here it is. It ran from April to August of 2006: <a href="http://archives.cranepoolforum.net/3100/f1_t3130.shtml" target="_new"><B>Jose Reyes Deathwatch</b></a>[/quote:yl8zzory] There was another one of those, also centered around Reyes's OBP & walk-taking future where Bret wants to force an answer to the question of whether the Mets should sign Reyes to a multi-year, mega-bucks contract or dump his ass - as if no in between choice were available. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 15 2009 02:50 PM ="metirish":vwneloli]It's quite fun to read back over that thread .[/quote:vwneloli] For one who wasn't 'around' back then... fun AND informative. To where'd this Bret fella run off? Kong76 May 15 2009 03:43 PM Holy mackerel, I just printed that out to read on the train tomorrow and it's gotta be thirty pages. LWFS: To where'd this Bret fella run off? <<< He was banned, as banned as one can really be, which of course isn't all that banned in the true sense of the word banned. Some were ecstatic, some really pissed off ... heard from him a couple of weeks ago and he's fine if anyone's wondering. Must be the alpaca, I'm answering like I'm on the shrink's couch here. cooby May 15 2009 03:56 PM NO Ashie62 May 15 2009 04:05 PM ="Nymr83"] ]and usually where there is smoke sometimes there is fire if you're going to write in cliches at least make sense. Play nice I can see Jose Reyes wearing out his welcome but nothing is going to happen til at least the end of the year. It would be kind of funny if Tampa Bay dumped Kazmir's salary, Ben Zobrist and a top prospect for a still cheap Reyes. Jose gets his numbers in, have to give him that Kong76 May 15 2009 06:34 PM I respect that some Mets fans need to tinker in their heads and whip up trade ideas and throw Kazmirs and a high level prospect into their fantasy tin- kering but ... oh jeez, I forgot where I was going with this. Guess I don't respect it all that much. Anyone who loves the Mets should hope they get his head straight and not yearn and wonder about who they might get to replace him in some off-the- wall 2 am WFANesque caller type deal. dinosaur jesus May 15 2009 07:15 PM I knew Jon Heyman's dad, Mark Heyman. A nice old guy. He bought me lunch once for helping him on the book he was writing. Jose Reyes didn't come up in our conversation--I don't think he was in the league yet--but I can tell you that based on what Mr. Heyman didn't say about what his son may or may not have told him regarding his possible inside knowledge about the Mets organization's 2003 plans for 2009, I'm not prepared to rule out a Reyes trade. Just don't say who told you. Nymr83 May 15 2009 10:54 PM ]and not yearn and wonder about who they might get to replace him in some off-the- wall 2 am WFANesque caller type deal. you mean 2pm, right? because only Fat-tessa could entertain that crap Edgy DC May 15 2009 11:27 PM Oh, Jeez, does everybody have a Heyman connection but me? I used to be married to his imaginary sister, but I'm not sure that counts. Benjamin Grimm May 16 2009 04:41 AM Was she hot? Edgy DC May 16 2009 06:50 AM I imagine she was. MFS62 May 16 2009 07:20 AM She wasn't that good. Later