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="Benjamin Grimm":zzce2mx0]Let's see...
Cora replaces Pagan today.
Reyes replaces Valdez on Friday.
On Sunday, Church will probably dislodge one of the two Martinezes. But will it be Ramon or Fernando?[/quote:zzce2mx0]
All public commentary from Manuel and Minaya has been of the "if he stays, he plays"/"he's not up here to ride the bench" variety.
IF Sheff gets DLed, I think the young buck stays. Otherwise-- presuming Beltran starts playing through the pain by the weekend-- it's a packed outfield (Beltran, Reed, Sheff, Church) in which F-Bomb has a timeshare, at most.
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Fman99
Jun 02 2009 09:56 AM
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Assuming they're all healthy enough to play, I think Church and Reed become your backup OFs and Sheff, Beltran and Fartinez the starters.
We've seen that Jerry has no hesitancy in benching these guys (Murph, Church) for days at a time to ride the hot hand.
Sheff's comments indicate that he is sore but as long as he's getting his rest he expects to keep trotting out there.
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jun 02 2009 09:59 AM
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| ="Fman99"]Assuming they're all healthy enough to play, I think Church and Reed become your backup OFs and Sheff, Beltran and Fartinez the starters.
We've seen that Jerry has no hesitancy in benching these guys (Murph, Church) for days at a time to ride the hot hand.
Sheff's comments indicate that he is sore but as long as he's getting his rest he expects to keep trotting out there. |
Why are Church and Reed on your imagi-bench, huh? It's because they're white, isn't it?
And Sheff's sore? Well, he's 40, isn't he? Frankly, I'd be more weirded out if he weren't.
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TheOldMole
Jun 02 2009 10:05 AM
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Another thought is they trade Church, whom Jerry doesn't love. But Sheff is going to need some significant rest as the season goes on, and I don't think they have too many outfielders.
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Edgy DC
Jun 02 2009 10:06 AM
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="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":8p4b7sh8] in which F-Bomb has a timeshare, at most.[/quote:8p4b7sh8]
"F-Bomb" has promise.
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jun 02 2009 10:14 AM
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="Edgy DC":236g82ix]="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":236g82ix] in which F-Bomb has a timeshare, at most.[/quote:236g82ix]
"F-Bomb" has promise.[/quote:236g82ix]
I see him not so much as big, long cannon blast (much less Dunnworthy ICBM), but heat-seeking, low-flying Predator missile.
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Fman99
Jun 02 2009 10:16 AM
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="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]| ="Fman99"]Assuming they're all healthy enough to play, I think Church and Reed become your backup OFs and Sheff, Beltran and Fartinez the starters.
We've seen that Jerry has no hesitancy in benching these guys (Murph, Church) for days at a time to ride the hot hand.
Sheff's comments indicate that he is sore but as long as he's getting his rest he expects to keep trotting out there. |
Why are Church and Reed on your imagi-bench, huh? It's because they're white, isn't it?
And Sheff's sore? Well, he's 40, isn't he? Frankly, I'd be more weirded out if he weren't. |
He runs like a guy who's 40 and been DH'ing for a few years. As long as keeps snapping that bat I ain't complaining.
My guess would be that until Delgado is back we see as much of Sheff as his body will allow. He, and we, know that someone has to be the impact power bat to complement Beltran and Wright.
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Fman99
Jun 02 2009 10:18 AM
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="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]| ="Fman99"]Assuming they're all healthy enough to play, I think Church and Reed become your backup OFs and Sheff, Beltran and Fartinez the starters.
We've seen that Jerry has no hesitancy in benching these guys (Murph, Church) for days at a time to ride the hot hand.
Sheff's comments indicate that he is sore but as long as he's getting his rest he expects to keep trotting out there. |
Why are Church and Reed on your imagi-bench, huh? It's because they're white, isn't it?
And Sheff's sore? Well, he's 40, isn't he? Frankly, I'd be more weirded out if he weren't. |
Oh, I missed that dig! I love white people. My wife is often confused with a glass of milk, and look at Fboy over there. He'd have to sneak up on a sheet of printer paper.
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Nymr83
Jun 02 2009 10:36 AM
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Does Manuel dislike Church enough to turn him into a bench player? because thats the only way Martinez stays here once Church is ready. They are not going to have their 20 year old top prospect ride the pine, he has to play every day whether it is here or in Buffalo.
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John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jun 02 2009 10:48 AM
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Yeah, I'm thinking Church may get the Castro Treatment soon. To Colorado for Jason Marquis, or something.
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Nymr83
Jun 02 2009 11:00 AM
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="John Cougar Lunchbucket":3w5dc251]Yeah, I'm thinking Church may get the Castro Treatment soon. To Colorado for Jason Marquis, or something.[/quote:3w5dc251]
i agree that he may get "the castro treatment" but i doubt its for a starting pitcher with no minor league options left because the Mets are committed to Santana, Pelfrey, and Maine and have gotten alot out of Livan lately. The 5th spot has been a mess but you have to assume that with 3 years and 30-something million committed to Perez that he will be back, and that leaves no room for a Marquis-type player. Unless the Mets pull a Kei Igawa move with Perez, but I don't think the Wilpons are willing to eat that kind of money for a minor leaguer the way George was.
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Benjamin Grimm
Jun 02 2009 11:01 AM
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That's my hunch, too.
Church made that Lastings Milledge trade (which was initially a lead balloon) look really good for a month or two last year, but now it's looking a lot less significant.
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Edgy DC
Jun 02 2009 11:05 AM
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If they're going to move him, first base help should be the first thing they'd be looking for in return, no?
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John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jun 02 2009 11:33 AM
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I think it depends on how much faith you have in Tim Redding to keep the Mets in games.
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Benjamin Grimm
Jun 02 2009 11:35 AM
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I don't know. If you do that, you displace Murphy, who you're trying to cultivate. I'd almost rather trade for a starter and displace Redding.
Either position is further complicated by an injured incumbent who's expected to return at some point. (Perez and Delgado.)
If they could get a solid AA corner outfielder or catcher, that might also be appealing. (Whether that's possible or not is another story.)
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Nymr83
Jun 02 2009 11:43 AM
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I don't think anyone cares about displacing Redding, its more a matter of forcing a choice between Perez and Livan (and the new guy) down the road. Now if "down the road" means September (they think Perez will be out awhile longer) then maybe you do that, but if they expect Perez back any time soon I don't think they can.
The Red Sox have like 8 starting pitchers who could legitimately be in a MLB rotation, and they're content to leave Bucholtz dominating AAA despite obviously being ready for the majors, the Mets were not content sending down a less-ready-than-Bucholtz Omir Santos, prefering to trade away their depth rather than resolve the conflict by asking the question "who has options?" as the Sox have in keeping the obviously inferior, but not useless, Brad Penny pitching over Bucholtz.
I'm not sure the Mets can make that kind of decision (weakening the current club slightly in order to keep options and depth around down the road), and if not then they can't acquire a veteran (read: no options) starter for Church.
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jun 02 2009 11:44 AM
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="Benjamin Grimm":25s879rk]I don't know. If you do that, you displace Murphy, who you're trying to cultivate. I'd almost rather trade for a starter and displace Redding.
Either position is further complicated by an injured incumbent who's expected to return at some point. (Perez and Delgado.)
If they could get a solid AA corner outfielder or catcher, that might also be appealing. (Whether that's possible or not is another story.)[/quote:25s879rk]
[Crane Pool Forum fades from view in slow dissolve, to an establishing shot of Cleveland. "Third-and-Second-and-First-Basemannish Boy (Theme for Mark DeRosa)" is heard increasing in volume in the background.]
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metirish
Jun 02 2009 11:56 AM
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I love the word cultivate and how Grim uses it there.
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Benjamin Grimm
Jun 02 2009 11:58 AM
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You're making me blush!
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Swan Swan H
Jun 02 2009 11:58 AM
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="Benjamin Grimm":2givl95w]If they could get a solid AA corner outfielder or catcher, that might also be appealing. (Whether that's possible or not is another story.)[/quote:2givl95w]
"Hi, my name is John, and I'm a corner outfielder."
"Hi, John"
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Zvon
Jun 02 2009 01:22 PM
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I like Martinez.
I think he's gonna be a fine starting outfielder someday.
When Church returns, shuffle FMart off to Buffallo.
Let him get his playing time.
He leaves on a good note, having accomplished a few things and contributed to the team.
Give Church a chance to get in the groove.
If he doesn't, say, within a month, then we have options.
I personally think Murph at first is not only okay but the place to play him.
Redding should only be given a little more rope.
If this was HANGMAN we'd be about here:
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Edgy DC
Jun 02 2009 01:57 PM
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Yeah, I'm with Z.
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Number 6
Jun 03 2009 12:48 AM
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I suppose I'm in the minority, but "Fartinez?" Really? Hope he outgrows that one.
And yeah, on the Z plan.
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Triple Dee
Jun 03 2009 05:43 AM
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="Number 6":2hn5y5s3]I suppose I'm in the minority, but "Fartinez?" Really? Hope he outgrows that one.
[/quote:2hn5y5s3]
IAWTP
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smg58
Jun 03 2009 09:14 AM
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="TheOldMole":2f9ucc2m]Another thought is they trade Church, whom Jerry doesn't love. But Sheff is going to need some significant rest as the season goes on, and I don't think they have too many outfielders.[/quote:2f9ucc2m]
We don't have too many healthy ones, that's for sure. I don't think Martinez is clearly outplaying Church enough that he wouldn't go down if the outfield gets crowded again, but that's fine. I think I'd ultimately like to trade Church, but he has to be healthy and playing for that to happen.
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John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jun 03 2009 09:24 AM
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="Number 6":1upye901]I suppose I'm in the minority, but "Fartinez?" Really? Hope he outgrows that one.[/quote:1upye901]
I like it. Of course, I invented it so as to head off people calling him "F-Mart" which is worse, I think.
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holychicken
Jun 03 2009 10:02 AM
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If he grows out of Fartinez, I hope it isn't into F-Mart.
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jun 03 2009 10:11 AM
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="holychicken":1tgmvaff]If he grows out of Fartinez, I hope it isn't into F-Mart.[/quote:1tgmvaff]
Am a fan of "F-Bomb," except, you know, he'll need to, like, hit and stuff.
Failing that, I like "Drums." (Perhaps there's just something in the air this night...)
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Benjamin Grimm
Jun 03 2009 11:01 AM
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I also like "F-Bomb."
Or we can combine the two, and call him Fart-Bomb. I'm sure that would make his mother proud.
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John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jun 30 2009 09:18 AM
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Could be the everyday CFer for awhile. Hits the ball pretty hard occasionally.
What are your 2nd impressions of this kid?
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metirish
Jun 30 2009 09:23 AM
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="John Cougar Lunchbucket":3pgjrab7]Could be the everyday CFer for awhile. Hits the ball pretty hard occasionally.
What are your 2nd impressions of this kid?[/quote:3pgjrab7]
I like him , have been surprised with his glove in CF......Keith keeps talking about how Martinez has this huge stride.....over and over.....would he relay that to Hojo.....can Keith work with him or is that a no no?
I like Martinez and I think if he starts hitting a bit he'll do fine.
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smg58
Jun 30 2009 09:28 AM
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I think he's got a bright future, but I'm not sure he's presently better than Jeremy Reed. A little more seasoning might do him good.
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Fman99
Jun 30 2009 12:27 PM
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="John Cougar Lunchbucket":32kqq1dp]Could be the everyday CFer for awhile. Hits the ball pretty hard occasionally.
What are your 2nd impressions of this kid?[/quote:32kqq1dp]
He still seems overmatched to me (specifically at the plate), the same way Milledge and Gomez did before him. I understand, what other options do the Mets have? Ptooey.
He looked atrocious chasing those high fastballs Sunday night. I groaned on the first one and predicted the second one.
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jun 30 2009 12:43 PM
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="Fman99":wzscw6l1]="John Cougar Lunchbucket":wzscw6l1]Could be the everyday CFer for awhile. Hits the ball pretty hard occasionally.
What are your 2nd impressions of this kid?[/quote:wzscw6l1]
He still seems overmatched to me (specifically at the plate), the same way Milledge and Gomez did before him. I understand, what other options do the Mets have? Ptooey.
He looked atrocious chasing those high fastballs Sunday night. I groaned on the first one and predicted the second one.[/quote:wzscw6l1]
Plate discipline's been an issue... as it kinda has throughout the minors (walk rate of 5.7%, swinging at pitches outside the zone to a 27.4% clip... which aren't too far out of line with the minor-league numbers). The guys who find their sea legs quickest tend to be those guys with good eyes-- power comes as they get used to ML pitching.
I still have hopes for the kid... but any good feelings I have about him are mostly hope-derived.
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MFS62
Jun 30 2009 01:18 PM
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IIRC, he has started slowly at every level, then made the necessary adjustments and finished well. I hope he can continue to do that at the major league level. And I think he will.
To quote Bob Murphy, "The cream always rises to the top".
Later
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metirish
Jun 30 2009 01:20 PM
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Do you seriously follow minor league baseball that closely?
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jun 30 2009 02:01 PM
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="metirish":1e8t12zp]Do you seriously follow minor league baseball that closely?[/quote:1e8t12zp]
Me?
Whenever possible, I'm peeping the Mets-system guys, plus others friends of other teams point out.
With guys like FM-- prized next-big-thing-types-- I'm hunting game footage online, clocking stuff like Fangraphs and Baseball Cube like they were shoplifters and I the bodega owner, and reading articles/articles about articles/articles about the validity of the article-based-articles about the kid.
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metirish
Jun 30 2009 02:03 PM
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Good for you guys that do that, obviously i don't because I didn't even know that my adoptee had left the org.
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Benjamin Grimm
Jun 30 2009 02:15 PM
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I used to follow the minor leaguers fairly closely back when The Sporting News was The Sporting News.
Not so much since then.
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Ceetar
Jun 30 2009 02:45 PM
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If he plays, he's going to learn more at the major league level than the minors. Right now I have more confidence in him than the other Fernando that keeps finding his way into the lineup. I just keep expecting that one day Martinez will cross that line from prospect to hitter, and that it could basically happen at any time.
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metirish
Jun 30 2009 02:47 PM
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I am reminded not for the first time the wise musings of Fran Healy...." how long before you go from prospect to suspect?"
indeed
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John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jun 30 2009 02:51 PM
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="Ceetar":eczhjo1j]If he plays, he's going to learn more at the major league level than the minors. Right now I have more confidence in him than the other Fernando that keeps finding his way into the lineup. I just keep expecting that one day Martinez will cross that line from prospect to hitter, and that it could basically happen at any time.[/quote:eczhjo1j]
That's sort of where I am. I have to admit, I was like that with Carlos Gomez too. This fella looks a wee bit too hacky to me, but he hits it nice and hard.
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Benjamin Grimm
Jun 30 2009 02:52 PM
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I'm sure it's at least a few years after your 20th birthday.
I think Fernando may turn out to be a fine player, but I never got the sense that his ceiling is as high as many fans would like it to be. I remember posting in this forum that my feeling was that he'd be a Matt Lawton type, which would make him a fine, productive player, but somewhat less than a superstar.
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Frayed Knot
Jun 30 2009 02:59 PM
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| ="metirish"]I am reminded not for the first time the wise musings of Fran Healy...." how long before you go from prospect to suspect?" |
He's several years away from anything resembling that kind of make-or-break point.
He's not ready now and wouldn't have been up the first time - much less twice - had it not been for all the problems on the big league level.
His main problem is that his own minor injuries (or at least not recurring ones that lead you to think there'll be some constant problem) have prevented him from putting up consistent 500-600 AB seasons one usually needs for proper development. I'm not sure the Mets did him a favor by jumping him over a level two years back.
But, even with all that, he's well ahead of schedule as compared to the average prospect and as long as fans don't go expecting multiple A-S appearances before he's 23 y/o he should be OK. Whether he becomes a real star in the future is still yet to be determined but we've got time to figure that out.
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Nymr83
Jun 30 2009 03:01 PM
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Martinez will end up a much better player than Gomez, who looks like a track star with no bat to speak of.
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Ceetar
Jun 30 2009 03:31 PM
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| ="Benjamin Grimm"]I'm sure it's at least a few years after your 20th birthday.
I think Fernando may turn out to be a fine player, but I never got the sense that his ceiling is as high as many fans would like it to be. I remember posting in this forum that my feeling was that he'd be a Matt Lawton type, which would make him a fine, productive player, but somewhat less than a superstar. |
His ceiling is still well higher, even this year probably, than Tatis and Argenis Reyes. So put him in the lineup over those guys.
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jun 30 2009 03:37 PM
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="Ceetar"]| ="Benjamin Grimm"]I'm sure it's at least a few years after your 20th birthday.
I think Fernando may turn out to be a fine player, but I never got the sense that his ceiling is as high as many fans would like it to be. I remember posting in this forum that my feeling was that he'd be a Matt Lawton type, which would make him a fine, productive player, but somewhat less than a superstar. |
His ceiling is still well higher, even this year probably, than Tatis and Argenis Reyes. So put him in the lineup over those guys. |
Well, you're not putting him in the lineup-- unless it's in a roundabout, Church-moves-to-center way-- over either of those guys, since neither of them plays CF.
And of course he has a higher ceiling... but at this point, the ballclub is not playing folk based on ceilings; it's playing them based on what they can do right now. If the club believes the season to be something of a lost cause, then and only then does player development becomes the primary priority, right?
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Ceetar
Jun 30 2009 03:53 PM
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="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]="Ceetar"]| ="Benjamin Grimm"]I'm sure it's at least a few years after your 20th birthday.
I think Fernando may turn out to be a fine player, but I never got the sense that his ceiling is as high as many fans would like it to be. I remember posting in this forum that my feeling was that he'd be a Matt Lawton type, which would make him a fine, productive player, but somewhat less than a superstar. |
His ceiling is still well higher, even this year probably, than Tatis and Argenis Reyes. So put him in the lineup over those guys. |
Well, you're not putting him in the lineup-- unless it's in a roundabout, Church-moves-to-center way-- over either of those guys, since neither of them plays CF.
And of course he has a higher ceiling... but at this point, the ballclub is not playing folk based on ceilings; it's playing them based on what they can do right now. If the club believes the season to be something of a lost cause, then and only then does player development becomes the primary priority, right? |
Well, normally. But with injuries, player development may actually play a key role this year. And I am talking about Martinez's ceiling for this year. Still probably higher than Tatis. who does sometimes play the outfield. Put reed in CF ocassionally, he's even hit okay this year.
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Nymr83
Jun 30 2009 03:54 PM
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a little leaguer has a higher ceiling than argenis reyes.
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Ceetar
Jun 30 2009 03:59 PM
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="Nymr83":viqzp86x]a little leaguer has a higher ceiling than argenis reyes.[/quote:viqzp86x]
Think he'll get an AB today?
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Nymr83
Jun 30 2009 04:38 PM
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i wish he'd get 3 of them today...for brooklyn!
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MFS62
Jun 30 2009 05:33 PM
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="metirish":gytjn2ua]Do you seriously follow minor league baseball that closely?[/quote:gytjn2ua]
Yes. Not a fanatic about it, but I do follow it.
Later
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Ashie62
Jun 30 2009 08:22 PM
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Although 20, Fartman should be further along. he looks green, scared and it doesn't appear any part of the game comes to him naturally.
In other words he has few skills
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Edgy DC
Jun 30 2009 08:31 PM
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I'll disagree. Completely.
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Rockin' Doc
Jun 30 2009 08:41 PM
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I think Martinez has goodphysical skills, but he is just too inexperienced to perform well at the major league level at this point in his development. He needs to develop better plate discipline before he can be succesful hitting at the major league level.
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Nymr83
Jun 30 2009 08:41 PM
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="Ashie62":1k307avk]Although 20, Fartman should be further along. he looks green, scared and it doesn't appear any part of the game comes to him naturally.
In other words he has few skills[/quote:1k307avk]
he's further along than most twenty year olds who are probably playing A-ball or AA. tonight was the first time he didnt look good in the field and he friggin slipped, so did mike cameron the GG quality centerfielder, he just happened to have a softly hit ball and t hus time to recover.
martinez has proven to my satisfaction that his bat isnt ready for the majors, but i dont think hes behind the curve for prospects his age by any stretch of the imagination.
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Ashie62
Jun 30 2009 08:46 PM
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="Nymr83":3skti24a]="Ashie62":3skti24a]Although 20, Fartman should be further along. he looks green, scared and it doesn't appear any part of the game comes to him naturally.
In other words he has few skills[/quote:3skti24a]
he's further along than most twenty year olds who are probably playing A-ball or AA. tonight was the first time he didnt look good in the field and he friggin slipped, so did mike cameron the GG quality centerfielder, he just happened to have a softly hit ball and t hus time to recover.
martinez has proven to my satisfaction that his bat isnt ready for the majors, but i dont think hes behind the curve for prospects his age by any stretch of the imagination.[/quote:3skti24a]
You could be right..Lets just say he's not a natural
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John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jun 30 2009 08:47 PM
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STFU Ashie.
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Edgy DC
Jun 30 2009 08:47 PM
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Eat it.
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Ashie62
Jun 30 2009 08:49 PM
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="Edgy DC":2q29u44k]Eat it.[/quote:2q29u44k]
What is your problem?
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Ashie62
Jun 30 2009 08:50 PM
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="John Cougar Lunchbucket":3qti4rya]STFU Ashie.[/quote:3qti4rya]
STFU JCL
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metirish
Jun 30 2009 08:51 PM
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handbags in the 'pool....settle now boys
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Edgy DC
Jun 30 2009 08:53 PM
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="Ashie62":3gt2hkpu]="Edgy DC":3gt2hkpu]Eat it.[/quote:3gt2hkpu]
What is your problem?[/quote:3gt2hkpu]
You get to ask me that when you aplogize for bitching me out under your other three identities, quitting the forum, and then crawling back here under different disuguises as if a three-year-old couldn't see through you.
As for now, it's not me saying "Eat it," it's Martinez.
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Ashie62
Jun 30 2009 09:03 PM
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="Edgy DC":30q2invs]="Ashie62":30q2invs]="Edgy DC":30q2invs]Eat it.[/quote:30q2invs]
What is your problem?[/quote:30q2invs]
You get to ask me that when you aplogize for bitching me out under your other three identities, quitting the forum, and then crawling back here under different disuguises as if a three-year-old couldn't see through you.
As for now, it's not me saying "Eat it," it's Martinez.[/quote:30q2invs]
Apology posted
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