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="themetfairy":1i6zrrso]Which is ironic, because David Sarnoff's telegraph key had been on loan to the Smithsonian for many years.[/quote:1i6zrrso]
Philo Farnsworth is smiling in his grave.
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themetfairy
Jun 14 2009 11:20 AM
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Farnsworth never came up with a sustainable signal. He had the idea, but never came up with the implementation.
A much more detailed explanation can be found [url=http://davidsarnoff.blogspot.com/2007/12/david-sarnoff-vladimir-zworykin-and.html:1odea9si]here[/url:1odea9si].
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Swan Swan H
Jun 14 2009 11:46 AM
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Here's another opinion, from a slightly more neutral perch:
[url:3807s6pr]http://www.time.com/time/time100/scientist/profile/farnsworth.html[/url:3807s6pr]
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themetfairy
Jun 14 2009 11:50 AM
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Not necessarily more accurate, though.
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Swan Swan H
Jun 14 2009 12:05 PM
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OK, how about this one?
[url:3err1s3r]http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/technology/bigdream/masarnoff2.html[/url:3err1s3r]
It's pretty clear that the television broadcast system that became the standard in American households was not the invention of any one person. The point is that Farnsworth was more responsible for the invention of television than anyone else, and Sarnoff, through his greed and wealth simply crushed him.
Zyworkin, it has been acknowledged, copied parts of Farnsworth's model. The courts verified that Farnsworth had the priority of invention. What he didn't have was a multi-million dollar empire to back him up.
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themetfairy
Jun 14 2009 12:10 PM
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What he also didn't have was a sustainable method of making electronic television work; his ideas were novel, but not able to be implemented on a practical basis.
Even without competition, the model that Farnsworth created would never have been able to come to fruition the way that Zworykin's model ultimately did.
Zworykin, btw, was an absolute genius. After his official retirement from RCA he did major research in the field of medical electronics as well as electronic highway development (things like sensors to make a red light green, etc.).
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Swan Swan H
Jun 14 2009 12:14 PM
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And without that 'visit' to Farnsworth's lab and Sarnoff's bankroll Zyworkin would not have gotten to where he did, as his model implemented ideas that Farnsworth patented.
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themetfairy
Jun 14 2009 01:48 PM
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I strongly disagree. Zworykin was independently working on television at the time, and his ultimate creation was substantially different from Farnsworth's.
Zworykin had a track record of over 50 years of creativity in a variety of fields (I should know; I did my MLIS field study on an archival project involving Zworykin's papers). He was well on his way to creating television before that visit, and he created color television after that time.
People love a good David vs. Goliath type story, but the bottom line is that Farnsworth would never have been able to bring to the world television as we know it; RCA or no RCA.
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Swan Swan H
Jun 14 2009 01:59 PM
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I disagree. If Farnsworth had the financial backing of a Sarnoff it would have happened. Sarnoff desperately wanted Farnsworth on his team, but he chose to stand up to Sarnoff, (the George Steinbrenner of his time and space) and his independence and stubbornness were his downfall.
If Farnsworth's inventions were so worthless why would Sarnoff have invested so much time and money to (unsuccessfully) dispute Farnsworth's patents?
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Kong76
Jun 14 2009 02:25 PM
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I haven't had much success splitting threads, but I think this warrants a split
if an admin reads this and has the time.
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Swan Swan H
Jun 14 2009 02:31 PM
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Nah. I'm done. MF can post a response if she likes, but this is an agree to disagree topic as far as I'm concerned.
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Frayed Knot
Jun 14 2009 02:32 PM
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Round 2: Tesla vs Edison
GO!!!
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Swan Swan H
Jun 14 2009 02:34 PM
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I don't have any of Edison's CDs, so I'll sit this one out.
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Frayed Knot
Jun 14 2009 02:42 PM
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She ain't got no money
Her clothes are kinda funny
Her hair is kinda wild and free
Oh, but Love grows where my Rosemary goes
And nobody knows like me
She talks kinda lazy
And people say she she's crazy
And her life's a mystery
Oh, but Love grows where my Rosemary goes
And nobody knows like me
There's something about her hand holding mine
It's a feeling that's fine
And I just gotta say
She's really got a magical spell
And it's working so well
That I can't get away
I'm a lucky fella
And I've just got to tell her
That I love her endlessly
Because Love grows where my Rosemary goes
And nobody knows like me
There's something about her hand holding mine
It's a feeling that's fine
And I just gotta say
She's really got a magical spell
And it's working so well
That I can't get away
I'm a lucky fella
And I've just got to tell her
That I love her endlessly
Because Love grows where my Rosemary goes
And nobody knows like me
It keeps growing every place she's been
And nobody knows like me
If you've met her, you'll never forget her
And nobody knows like me
La la la- believe it when you've seen it
Nobody knows like me
-- Edison Lighthouse
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themetfairy
Jun 14 2009 05:02 PM
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I'll respectfully disagree with Swanie and reiterate that the thorough analysis in the link I provided above refutes his arguments.
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Swan Swan H
Jun 14 2009 06:04 PM
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A link from the house organ of the Sarnoff Library, which disagrees with links I provided from Time Magazine and PBS.org.
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themetfairy
Jun 14 2009 06:09 PM
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Which was prepared by historian Dr. Alexander Magoun, who is much more familiar with the material than either one of us will ever be. And if you check the many links provided in the blog post, they contain much more data than Time or PBS.
What's your dog in this fight? Are you Philo Farnsworth's nephew or something?
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Swan Swan H
Jun 14 2009 06:12 PM
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| ="themetfairy"]Which was prepared by historian Dr. Alexander Magoun, who is much more familiar with the material than either one of us will ever be. And if you check the many links provided in the blog post, they contain much more data than Time or PBS. |
And, were it to have anything negative to say about Sarnoff or Zyworkin would not have been printed, I'm certain.
| ]What's your dog in this fight? Are you Philo Farnsworth's nephew or something? |
No, I just dislike corporate thuggery as a rule.
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themetfairy
Jun 14 2009 06:16 PM
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Don't be so certain. I've worked closely with Alex over the past several years, and he's nothing if not candid.
And I truly believe you've bought into an over-simplified scenario of the Farnsworth story.
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Swan Swan H
Jun 14 2009 06:22 PM
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Well, calling me simple is certainly going to get me to change my mind.
Have I done the level of research your friend has? Of course not. Have I been reading about this subject for thirty years, and found the ruthlessness of Sarnoff to be the single connecting thread to everything I have read? Yes, I have.
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themetfairy
Jun 14 2009 06:32 PM
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Then it's pretty apparent that your mind is made up. But I'd hope that others who may be following this discussion are more willing to keep an open mind to the evidence that Farnsworth never had a model that could have been made into the household staple that television has become for all of us.
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Swan Swan H
Jun 14 2009 06:37 PM
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And I hope that others will understand that, as proved by the courts, Zworkin took parts of Farnsworth's work and cooked it into his ultimate invention, which he was able to work on as part of a large team supported by Sarnoff's bankroll.
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themetfairy
Jun 14 2009 06:41 PM
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This is what I strongly disagree with. Zworykin was working on television long before that event, and he perfected a substantially different system from the one Farnsworth patented. Zworkin went on to develop color television, which is very different in nature than black and white television, as well as a myriad of other things.
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Swan Swan H
Jun 14 2009 06:46 PM
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From the Time article:
In 1934 the U.S. Patent Office rendered its decision, awarding priority of invention to Farnsworth. RCA appealed and lost, but litigation about various matters continued for many years until Sarnoff finally agreed to pay Farnsworth royalties.
Litigation that RCA could have dragged out forever if they thought they would ever win on merit.
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themetfairy
Jun 14 2009 07:05 PM
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I disagree with the characterization.
The image dissector that Farnsworth developed for which he was awarded the patent required such high levels of light so as to be impractical for household use. The televisions that were able to be mass produced for use in our parents' and grandparents' homes were the direct result of Zworykin's iconoscope.
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Swan Swan H
Jun 14 2009 07:15 PM
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From Watching TV: Six Decades of American Television (Second Edition) by Harry Castleman and Walter J. Podrazik
Since 1919 Vladimir Zyworkin, a Russian immigrant, had been hard at work for Westinghouse and, later, RCA in pursuit of an alternative method of transmitting TV pictures, an all-electric television system. In the 1920s Zyworkin devised an early model iconoscope, the “eye” of an electronic TV camera, and, later, the receiving end of the process the kinescope picture tube, Once again, though, it was a feisty independent that beat the established companies and put all the elements together. In 1927, twenty-one-year-old inventor Philo T. Farnsworth developed the first practical all-electronic television system, and filed key patents for its components. Even mighty RCA eventually ended up licensing some of Farnsworth’s work, though only after years of trying to buy him out or to supersede him through its own patent claims. In the end, both Farnsworth’s and Zyworkin’s work were needed for television to move forward.
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themetfairy
Jun 14 2009 07:23 PM
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I disagree with the conclusions of that excerpt.
Farnsworth's system was far from practical. If it was, the image dissector model would have been the type of television produced in the 30s and 40s.
| ]Nah. I'm done. MF can post a response if she likes, but this is an agree to disagree topic as far as I'm concerned. |
I'm willing to call it a point of disagreement if you are.
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Swan Swan H
Jun 14 2009 07:37 PM
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A point of disagreement between you and me, Time, PBS, a long-standing text used in communications schools nationwide, and the US Patent Office, among those I have had the time to look for this afternoon. Yup, I'll concede that.
The point I tried to make hours ago was that Sarnoff fucked over Farnsworth because he had the audacity to rebuff and, later, challenge him. Nothing you have written has addressed that, because it is pretty much indisputable. If you are content to call that business as usual, on that we can agree to disagree as well.
I'll stand by my secondary points regarding the real inventor of television, though the Sarnoff Library unsurprisingly disagrees, but that was not really my point to start with. My point was that Sarnoff was a son of a bitch, and if you go back to look at my first post that's what I, essentially, was saying.
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themetfairy
Jun 14 2009 07:59 PM
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Sarnoff being a son of a bitch is a whole separate issue from the invention of television. I've never said anything to the contrary, and I'm certainly not going to try to pretend he was an angel.
But that doesn't mean that Farnsworth's image dissector was a viable system. It doesn't matter who was nice and who was an asshole - it simply wasn't something that would have been able to produce and receive television signals in a practical manner.
Dislike David Sarnoff all you want - it's no skin off my nose. But your characterization that Sarnoff "fucked over" Farnsworth due to his audacity ignores the fact that Farnsworth's vision of television was an impractical one.
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Swan Swan H
Jun 14 2009 08:10 PM
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Again, here was my first post:
| ]Philo Farnsworth is smiling in his grave. |
Period. I'm sure he is. And, in a bit of irony that is hard to miss, but somehow I have until now, the reason the library is closing is because the Sarnoff company's government contracts made the library disposable.
By the way, you neglected to mention that your pal was a director of the Sarnoff museum. Having him comment on Farnsworth is like having Sean Hannity write the flyleaf for Barack Obama's biography.
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themetfairy
Jun 14 2009 08:20 PM
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You can look at it that way. You can also look at it as someone who isn't going to have a job by the end of the year and who has absolutely no reason to defend any position with which he disagrees.
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Swan Swan H
Jun 14 2009 08:24 PM
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The guy has been working there for eleven years, and is trying to move the whole thing elsewhere. I'd say that's more than an reason, it's desperation.
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themetfairy
Jun 14 2009 08:43 PM
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Swan - you are truly mistaken here. I have known Alex for several years, and he's nothing if not candid.
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Swan Swan H
Jun 14 2009 08:47 PM
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How lucky for the museum that they found a guy who just happens to believe, contrary to a lot of independent researchers, that Farnsworth was a crackpot who essentially invented the Etch-A-Sketch.
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themetfairy
Jun 14 2009 09:00 PM
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Swan - as I've told you privately, I've known you for a long time, and I've always liked you.
I'm not sure what it is about this that has you so riled up, but I don't think we're going to convince the other to change his/her mind about this.
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Swan Swan H
Jun 14 2009 09:11 PM
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No, you won't. If anything you've inspired me to defame the legacy of 'General' Sarnoff at every turn.
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themetfairy
Jun 15 2009 05:20 AM
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That's fine. If you wish to defame someone who came to this country at age 8 (without knowing the language or any money, who left school when his father became ill and eventually died) and who contributed to bringing radio, television, color television and computer technology to the world, that's your choice.
He may have been a son of a bitch, but he was one who made a lot of contributions to the world as we know it.
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Swan Swan H
Jun 15 2009 05:32 AM
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From the PBS documentary. I'm guessing this quote isn't in the souvenir program at the museum:
| ]
But to oppose David Sarnoff within the halls of his empire often resulted in a scathing verbal assault--or a call to Sarnoff's palatial East Seventy-first street home in the after hours, during which one would be summarily dismissed.
Sarnoff's assaults on those who opposed him from outside his empire were even more brutal. He quickly calibrated the value of controlling patents, and used the power of RCA lawyers to crush the businesses and ruin the lives of any who got in the way. Edwin Howard Armstrong and Philo Farnsworth were two who had the genius and the audacity to challenge Sarnoff in patent litigation; both men paid dearly as a result. |
Crush the business? Fair enough. Ruin the lives, an act which, from several reports, he took much delight in carrying out, is something different.
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themetfairy
Jun 15 2009 05:44 AM
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Swan - as we discussed before, we're not going to sway each other. And judging from the lack of participation by others in this thread, we seem to be the only ones with any substantial interest in this subject. I don't really wish to spend hours upon hours talking in circles with you about this.
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Swan Swan H
Jun 15 2009 07:21 AM
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Yet you keep replying. You think the end justifies the means, I disagree.
Additionally, you post a note in this forum asking why why I'm riled up on a personal level, but then you asked me not to say why here. Fine, but let it be known that there is a another reason for my anger which has nothing to do with Sarnoff, Farnsworth, Jack Benny or anything television related.
You can have the last word if you like, but now I'm done.
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themetfairy
Jun 15 2009 07:22 AM
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Done
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John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jun 15 2009 07:40 AM
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How bad a person am I to admit I enjoyed this debate?
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themetfairy
Jun 15 2009 07:41 AM
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I always knew you were bad Lunchie ;)
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Vic Sage
Jun 15 2009 10:05 AM
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it was at least as informative and interesting as THE FARNSWORTH INVENTION by Aaron Sorkin.
I'm with Swannie, by the way. Just on principle.
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HahnSolo
Jun 15 2009 10:49 AM
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How was Sarnoff in the 8th inning? Because Farnsworth wasn't worth spit in that spot.
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metirish
Jun 25 2009 06:30 AM
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On my Google home page I have a quotes app. I think this settles it
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If it weren't for Philo T. Farnsworth, inventor of television, we'd still be eating frozen radio dinners. |
- Johnny Carson
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