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What Willie Has Learned This Season

Rotblatt Sep 17 2005 07:40 AM

Absolutely fucking nothing. ]Willie will shake pen BY ADAM RUBIN DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER Willie Randolph intends to experiment with roles in the bullpen now that the Mets have faded from the race. As a result, Braden Looper may not exclusively be used to close games during the season's final two weeks. Randolph indicated that might mean more use of Shingo Takatsu and Danny Graves as both players audition for potential roles in the 2006 bullpen. The manager still envisions Victor Zambrano as a starter, but said he figures to test him in different relief situations, including pitching back-to-back days. Randolph mentioned Aaron Heilman as a candidate for more late-game situations, though the manager has said he doesn't envision Heilman as a closer in 2006. What the fuck!!!!!!!!!! He envisions Danny Fucking Graves as a closer but not Heilman? What fucking planet is Willie living on? Jesus fucking Christ, he is absolutely retarded.

Nymr83 Sep 17 2005 08:27 AM Re: What Willie Has Learned This Season

Rotblatt wrote: Absolutely fucking nothing. it took him over 2 months to realize each of these OBVIOUS things: 1) david wright should not be hitting 6th, 7th, or 8th. 2) ishii should not be starting 3) cairo should not be starting 4) how to make a double switch (ie dont pull a good hitter who will probably bat again, he's done this to both wright and floyd and sure enough their spot came up in a big spot and we got a pinch hitter) he only caught on to how bad matsui was because matsui got hurt. he still hasn't figured out that seo and heilman are better options than guys he has probably gauranteed jobs to for next year. why is gerald williams on the roster? why is danny graves still here? WE WANT BOBBY V

MFS62 Sep 17 2005 08:48 AM

And I'm still not sure he has learned (after two disasters) that you can't pitch Roberto Hernandez more than three games in a row. In fact, I don't think he has learned from any of the mistakes he has made all year, because he tends to keep repeating them and is slow to admit he has made a mistake. He seems to know that Looper should not be the closer for 2006. But if Graves is on his tryout list, and not management's decision, then he had his eyes closed every time Graves came into a game this year, just like the fans did. Later

Elster88 Sep 17 2005 09:31 AM Re: What Willie Has Learned This Season

="Rotblatt"]Absolutely fucking nothing. ]Willie will shake pen BY ADAM RUBIN DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER Willie Randolph intends to experiment with roles in the bullpen now that the Mets have faded from the race. As a result, Braden Looper may not exclusively be used to close games during the season's final two weeks. Randolph indicated that might mean more use of Shingo Takatsu and Danny Graves as both players audition for potential roles in the 2006 bullpen. The manager still envisions Victor Zambrano as a starter, but said he figures to test him in different relief situations, including pitching back-to-back days. Randolph mentioned Aaron Heilman as a candidate for more late-game situations, though the manager has said he doesn't envision Heilman as a closer in 2006. What the fuck!!!!!!!!!! He envisions Danny Fucking Graves as a closer but not Heilman? What fucking planet is Willie living on? Jesus fucking Christ, he is absolutely retarded. Heilman is hopefully going to be a starter. As far as Graves, hopefully he's just taking a look at him for a random bullpen spot instead of the closer role.

Elster88 Sep 17 2005 09:38 AM

I've been frustrated with Willie at points during the season, too, but I'd like to defend him some. ]1) david wright should not be hitting 6th, 7th, or 8th . Wright didn't bat eighth once all year, and steadily moved up the lineup all season. ]2) ishii should not be starting I can't argue much here. Ishii was left in the rotation way too long. ]3) cairo should not be starting The other option was a guy who you say sucks too, and for a long time while that other option was on the DL, there were no other options. Of course, now Matsui is hitting the crap out of the ball, so he got around to the right decision there too. I can't defend Willie much here, I was arguing for Matsui's return to second for a while after he came off the DL. But at the same time I can see him feeling like both options sucked, so he was hoping Cairo would return to what he saw last year. ]4) how to make a double switch (ie dont pull a good hitter who will probably bat again, he's done this to both wright and floyd and sure enough their spot came up in a big spot and we got a pinch hitter) In fairness, Howe had this problem too, as do all managers. Even the celebrated genius LaRussa makes calls that I sometimes scratch my head about. I think all managers can have trouble with this, especially if they are first starting out and/or come from the AL. Willie has both counts working against him.

Rotblatt Sep 17 2005 10:11 AM

]As far as Graves, hopefully he's just taking a look at him for a random bullpen spot instead of the closer role. Which also doesn't make any sense, given how terrible Graves has been, but it's certainly LESS retarded. I hope you're right, Elster, but that article really made it sound like Graves would be auditioning--along with Robo & Takatsu--for the closer role in 2006. ]Heilman is hopefully going to be a starter. Here's what Willie had to say about Heilman according to Newsday: ]Before the game, Randolph was skeptical when someone asked if Aaron Heilman is a prospective closer. The manager said Heilman doesn't seem ready to be a closer or a setup man. "He doesn't have the experience yet," Randolph said. ?!!! He can't be even a SETUP man because he doesn't have the EXPERIENCE?!! As opposed to, say, REAL closers like Street or Turnbow or Nathan or Cordero or MacDougal, who all spent EXTENSIVE time in the bullpen before ascending to the closing role. I mean, I don't even think Heilman should be our closer--I think he should be in our rotation--but he's a WAY better option than Graves. Or Looper this season, for that matter. Experience should be the absolute last thing Willie's concerned about. Performance, stuff, makeup, THEN experience. And not even the SETUP man? Jesus, Willie, what team have you been watching this year?

Edgy DC Sep 17 2005 10:19 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 17 2005 04:59 PM

Perspective, gentlemen. I'm not impressed by Randolph either, but, if these games truly don't mean anything, it only makes sense to throw some useful innings to players you have to spit or swallow on during the off-season. Younger options will remain in the Mets control under any circumstances, and have the opportunity for winter ball and AFL action during the off-season, and return in the spring.

Elster88 Sep 17 2005 10:35 AM

And I'm pretty sure once again, at least as far as his comment on Graves goes, the writer is just trying to stir up the shit. And he succeeded. I'll go as far as to guarantee that Danny Graves will not be the 2006 Mets' closer. Mark it in the prediction archives. ____________________________ This post had the designation 152) Anthony Young

willpie Sep 17 2005 11:17 AM

Edgy DC wrote: I'm not impressed by Randolph either, but, if these games truly don't mean anything, it only makes sense to throw some usefull innings to players you have to spit or swallow on during the off-season. And the award for ickiest metaphor of the season goes to. . .

KC Sep 17 2005 12:05 PM

Obviously, Willpie isn't an enophile.

Rotblatt Sep 17 2005 12:13 PM

Edgy DC wrote: Perspective, gentlemen. I'm not impressed by Randolph either, but, if these games truly don't mean anything, it only makes sense to throw some usefull innings to players you have to spit or swallow on during the off-season. Younger options will remain in the Mets control under any circumstances, and have the opportunity for winter ball and AFL action during the off-season, and return in the spring. Edgy, Willie's saying that Heilman doesn't have enough experience to close or set up a closer, AND HE'S NOT WILLING TO GIVE HIM THAT EXPERIENCE EVEN IN MEANINGLESS GAMES. Doesn't that strike you as particularly stupid, especially when he's talking about using Graves next year in those situations when Graves has been the worst pitcher on our team--and arguably the worst pitcher at Norfolk as well? Graves shouldn't be on a major league roster, much less being tried out as a potential set-up man or closer for 2006 when our rosters are littered with far superior options.

willpie Sep 17 2005 12:40 PM

KC wrote: Obviously, Willpie isn't an enophile. Indeed, though I quite like Roxy Music.

Valadius Sep 17 2005 01:53 PM

He's a bloody idiot is what he is. Still, I have a sneaking suspicion that he'll lead us to a pennant by sheer accident at some point.

seawolf17 Sep 17 2005 03:40 PM

I guess if you throw Graves in there to close a game or two, and he's successful, some other team might see him as a trade option? Although I doubt any team -- Mets or otherwise -- will pay him $5 million (I think that's what his option is) for '06.

Rotblatt Sep 17 2005 03:52 PM

There's no way we pick up Graves' option, which means the only way we trade him is by declining his option, then resigning him, THEN trading him. If he plays well now, it's going to cost more money to sign him.

Wild Duck Sep 17 2005 04:55 PM

]Before the game, Randolph was skeptical when someone asked if Aaron Heilman is a prospective closer. The manager said Heilman doesn't seem ready to be a closer or a setup man. "He doesn't have the experience yet," Randolph said. And Willie shouldn't be a manager because he had no experience.

Edgy DC Sep 17 2005 05:14 PM

Welcome , Wild Duck. Or welcome back. Were you wildduckct from the ezboard-era Crane Pool Forum?

seawolf17 Sep 17 2005 05:16 PM

Welcome aBorduck! (On second thought, maybe that doesn't work.)

metirish Sep 17 2005 06:23 PM

Willie was on the pre-game on the FAN today and when he was asked why he had Zambrano up throwing late in the game yesterday he responded by saying that he likes Victors swing and miss stuff outta the pen ,he mentioned that Heilman has the same stuff , he indicated that both could be closers.

Nymr83 Sep 17 2005 06:47 PM

]But at the same time I can see him feeling like both options sucked (referring to the 2B situation) my response would be that once matsui proved he sucked and got hurt, and cairo proved he sucked too it was time to bring up one of our many MIs from AAA/AA and see what they could do.

smg58 Sep 18 2005 09:12 AM

The only one of the 2B's who might have been ready when it was clear that what they had there wasn't cutting it was Keppinger, but he got hurt. Hernandez and Lambin are in a better position now than they were then. It's important to know when to give and when not to give the young guys a chace, but Willie's gives the impression of disproportionately favoring experienced players, even when they're Mets because their previous teams figured out that these were guys you can't win with. It was one thing in April, when Randolph and Minaya were less sure of the younger relievers so they threw a bunch of guys on the wall and only Hernandez stuck. It's another thing to pick up guys who've been dumped for pitching lousy and have them jump ahead of guys who pitched well enough in Norfolk to deserve the chance. The only way guys like Heilman or Padilla or Heath Bell are going to get the experience that Randolph wants is if he gives them the ball.

Nymr83 Sep 18 2005 09:34 AM

i agree about the relievers...and i even have to question the notion that hernandez's emergence means anything...he's 39, will he be helping us next year? i doubt it. if, however, bell had been handed the ball in the 8th all year and succeeded it would mean something, but we'll never know. as for the 2bmen hernandez could have been called up since at least early august, lambin since at least 3 weeks ago. cairo was the only choice when matsui got hurt but when he proved he sucked it was time to look elsewhere and willie didnt.

Edgy DC Sep 18 2005 09:54 AM

It meant something before we went 3-15. And as long as "proved he sucked" keeps being written, it's hard to take people seriously.

Nymr83 Sep 18 2005 10:59 AM

what the fuck else can you call it? its not like he was hitting anywhere near a respectable level. if .242/.289/.318 doesn't convince you that somebody sucks then i don't know what else to tell you. since the all-star break he's been even worse at .231/.268/.308. there is no logical reason for him to be in the lineup or even on the roster. this should all be obvious to a 10 year old, but a major league manager can't get it?

Edgy DC Sep 18 2005 11:09 AM

Relax. I would've liked to promote a minor-leaguer earlier also. But relax.

Zvon Sep 18 2005 11:48 AM

Nymr83 wrote: cairo was the only choice when matsui got hurt but when he proved he sucked it was time to look elsewhere and willie didnt. What got me was Cairo gettin the start in right earlier this week....... Why stick him there? Id rather have a tired Diaz struttin around like a spring chicken. And sure nuff, Cairo blows a BIG play in the 1st inning of that game. If what Willie was doin was giving Cairo plenty of rope, Cairo hung himself plenty good. And made Willie look foolish to boot. No, Willies soft spot for Cairo has cost us......no doubt.

Elster88 Sep 18 2005 01:10 PM

Nymr83 wrote: ]But at the same time I can see him feeling like both options sucked (referring to the 2B situation) my response would be that once matsui proved he sucked Some people would argue, and have argued, that this hasn't been proven yet.

Rotblatt Sep 18 2005 01:32 PM

]The only one of the 2B's who might have been ready when it was clear that what they had there wasn't cutting it was Keppinger. I don't know if I agree with that. Cairo & Matsui were on the DL in the middle of June. Keppinger was put on the DL on June 18. At that point, Lambin had the following line in AA: .323 AVG/.392 OBP/.615 SLG, with 11 home runs Hernandez .326-7-24 in 273 at-bats AA Might have been worth jumping one of them up to the bigs there, although it's certainly open to questioning. Of course, at that point, Cairo had a .720 OPS, which is okay for a starting 2B. I would argue that Cairo didn't really play himself out of a job until July (.669 OPS) and he was atrocious in August (.515 OPS). Given how bad he was throughout that month, it was pretty much inexcusable for WIllie not to do SOMETHING--like call up one of the kids, who at that point had over 100 quality AAA at bats, or at least take him out of the two hole. Hernandez & Lambin (both promoted to AAA shortly after Keppinger went down) had fast starts in Norfolk in June & July, tailed off a bit heading into August, but Hernandez, at least, adjusted well after that. AAA stats as of 7/6 22 YO, Anderson Hernandez (52 AB) .404/.434/.596/1.030, 9 SB, 1 CS 26, Chase Lambin (41 AB) .341/.391/.439/.830 7/12 - 7/28 Lambin, 2B/3B: .255/.286/.447/.733 Hernandez, 2B/SS: .240/.296/.320/.616 8/3 - 8/22 Hernandez (51 AB): .510 AVG/.576 OBP/.549 SLG/1.125 OPS, .62 BB/K Lambin (51): .216/.272/.392/.664, .31 You could certainly argue that Hernandez should have been called up during one of his many hot streaks between July & September. Although I agree, Edgy, that it's hardly a slam-dunk case, given that Cairo was pretty solid until he was playing regularly in July.

Zvon Sep 18 2005 02:13 PM

Cairo is what he is. A utility backup. And a good one. Not an everyday player. Willies misuse has made him look like a failure. Its ashame, really. Id point to all the time they gave Matsui to get back up, and all those minor league games at different levels that he was playing while he could have been up on the team. Its all pissin in the wind tho........

Nymr83 Sep 18 2005 08:25 PM

]Hernandez .326-7-24 in 273 at-bats AA i wanted hernandez in august, but if i remember correctly he was a converted SS so they didnt want to throw him in at 2B in june when he had just started playing there. that wouldn't have stopped me of course, and its still no excuse for not using Lambin.

Elster88 Sep 18 2005 08:32 PM

]no excuse for not using Lambin Considering that Lambin's stats from 7-22 on in AAA were not good, and that his good stretch prior to that came in the enormous sample size of 41 at-bats, the Mets decision not to bring him up was correct. Looks like the Mets keep getting them right. Strange. ____________________________ This post had the designation 151) Glendon Rusch

Nymr83 Sep 18 2005 09:07 PM

in what alternate reality do you live? if they were "getting them right" they wouldnt be 4 years removed from a winning record

Elster88 Sep 19 2005 08:04 AM

So instead of saying either: a) "You're wrong, and here is why Lambin should've been brought up," and explaining why the Mets were wrong. or b) "The Mets were right, leaving Lambin in AAA was the right move." or something along those lines, your reply is "The Mets haven't had a winning record in four years, their moves are wrong." Very compelling. My head really hurts from banging it against the wall. _____________________________ This post had the designation 151) Glendon Rusch

sharpie Sep 19 2005 08:53 AM

Cairo did, of course, play a lot for the MFYs last year and hit 292/346/417. Randolph can be excused for thinking maybe he'd get that player and, for a while, he did. Matsui and Keppinger's injuries happening when they did was unfortunate. I still think Matsui has an upside but I'm perfectly happy to watch Hernandez these next couple of weeks. Ultimately, the giant hole at first base for most of this season hurt us more than the hole at second.

Elster88 Sep 19 2005 09:07 AM

I wonder if Jacobs could fit the hole at first. _____________________________ This post had the designation 151) Glendon Rusch

sharpie Sep 19 2005 09:08 AM

We've got a couple of weeks to maybe find out.

Elster88 Sep 19 2005 09:10 AM

It's a tough call. I'm sure he'll need at least a full season of play before being a solid starter at first base, if he has that potential at all. _____________________________ This post had the designation 151) Glendon Rusch

Edgy DC Sep 19 2005 09:22 AM

Largely meaningless projection of Mike Jacobs first 19 games over 150 games: G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG 150 474 103 134 40 0 47 103 316 63 119 0 0 .368 .667 .283 You've got to look hard at him.

sharpie Sep 19 2005 09:26 AM

I'd like to see him get a start or two against lefthanders.

Nymr83 Sep 19 2005 06:02 PM

more jacobs = good, because he is a possible component of the future while the other options aren't.

Rotblatt Sep 19 2005 07:47 PM

Elster88 wrote: Considering that Lambin's stats from 7-22 on in AAA were not good, and that his good stretch prior to that came in the enormous sample size of 41 at-bats, the Mets decision not to bring him up was correct. I disagree, especially given how bad Cairo was throughout July & August. Despite some ups and downs (which are totally normal for any player), Lambin ended up with a .289 AVG/.350 OBP/.526 SLG/.876 OPS in 211 AAA ABs and I don't think his OPS ever dipped below .830. That's really damn good for a middle infielder in his first AAA stint. Throw in some simply amazing AA stats--.331/.396/.657/1.053 OPS--and I don't see how you can cavalerely state that the decision to leave him down was "correct" especially when Cairo was posting an OPS of .515. Lambin was on pace for 34 HR over 550 at bats between AA & AAA while getting on base at a .373 clip. As a 2B. If that's not enough to warrant a call-up when you're fielding the worst regular 2B in the league, I don't know what is. The fact that we had Hernandez down there too is really just adding insult to injury. And Jesus, Basak was pretty damn good this season too, and he played some 2B as well. Again, it's probably not a slam-dunk to call one of them up, but IMO it's pretty darn close. The only real hesitation I have is that I seem to be the only person talking about him. I haven't heard any scouts mention him despite a pretty amazing season and he's gotten zero coverage in the press. Makes me wonder if he's really bad in the field or what.

Nymr83 Sep 19 2005 08:09 PM

go with your numbers, if the mets scouts were any good we wouldnt have to wait 10 years between strawberry and alfonzo and another 8 between alfonzo and wright.

MFS62 Sep 26 2005 06:42 AM

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/349800p-298444c.html Apparently Willie is letting his perception of the player decide a player's future rather than looking at the results. Aaron has been borderline spectacular the last half of the season, but Willie thinks it may not last. Funny, hitters didn't catch up with changeup pitchers like John Franco, Stu Miller and one of the Jones boys (Todd? Doug?), and they didn't have 90+ fastballs to complement that pitch. Later

Johnny Dickshot Sep 26 2005 07:53 AM

Shouldn't it be clear by now that WWSB uses the beat guys to send messages to his players (and/or trial balloons to fans), and the beat guys use WWSB to stir up their readers? We've had an awful lot of threads based on quotes that turn out to be little more than smoke-blowing only days later. Like: Willie's saying that Heilman doesn't have enough experience to close or set up a closer, AND HE'S NOT WILLING TO GIVE HIM THAT EXPERIENCE EVEN IN MEANINGLESS GAMES. Boxscores say Heilman's got 2 saves and we ain't even eliminated yet.

Rotblatt Sep 26 2005 11:04 AM

Yup, you're totally right JD. Heilman's gotten chances and we haven't seen Graves yet, so I'm pretty happy with Willie at the moment. At least bullpen wise. Not happy about Cairo over Hernandez, but I'll let that slide for now. From what I'm seeing out of Willie, it looks like if 2006 started today, he'd be using Heilman as his closer with Robo & Padilla setting him up and I can't find anything wrong with that.