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="PiggiesTomatoes":3mh5vvn3]He's Omar's guy but this may be the perfect opportunity to can his rear-end.[/quote:3mh5vvn3]
I thought he was Wilpon's guy, that's spying on Omar for them.
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Fman99
Jul 21 2009 11:32 AM
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Did I ever tell you about the time Bernazard took me out to go get a drink with him? We go off looking for a bar and we can't find one. Finally Tony takes me to a vacant lot and says, 'Here we are.' We sat there for a year and a half and sure enough someone constructs a bar around us. The day they opened we ordered a shot, drank it, and then burned the place to the ground. Tony yelled over the roar of the flames, 'Always leave things the way you found em!'
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PiggiesTomatoes
Jul 21 2009 06:06 PM
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="attgig":197jgn3a]="PiggiesTomatoes":197jgn3a]He's Omar's guy but this may be the perfect opportunity to can his rear-end.[/quote:197jgn3a]
I thought he was Wilpon's guy, that's spying on Omar for them.[/quote:197jgn3a]
I believe he and Sandy Johnson were both hired by Omar.
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Farmer Ted
Jul 21 2009 06:10 PM
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Tony B. was driving Glavine's cab and was the designated driver for Tony Tarasco.
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Swan Swan H
Jul 21 2009 06:30 PM
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Bernazard bought Bret Saberhagen his first bottle of bleach. Then he was hooked.
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Nymr83
Jul 21 2009 06:33 PM
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I heard that Bernazard was the shooter on the Grassy Knoll.
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John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jul 22 2009 05:58 AM
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Holy crap!
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Sources: Mets VP for player development Tony Bernazard challenges Binghamton Mets to fight
Read more: [url]http://tinyurl.com/mqwc2r[/url]
The Binghamton Mets clubhouse nearly turned into a scene out of WWE Raw recently, when VP for player development Tony Bernazard removed his shirt and challenged the Double-A players to a fight during a postgame tirade, multiples sources told the Daily News.
Bernazard particularly went after middle infield prospect Jose Coronado, using a slang term associated with a woman’s anatomy, a source indicated. The confrontation happened about 10days before the All-Star break, according to insiders.
“That’s an all-timer if true,” an AL official said upon hearing the account, which was corroborated by multiple people with ties to the Mets.
GM Omar Minaya acknowledged Bernazard spoke to the B-Mets in a “stern voice,” but said he had no knowledge of the scope being portrayed.
“I know he did have a team meeting with them,” Minaya told the Daily News. “It was not a ‘you-guys-have-been-great meeting.’ I know he spoke to them in a stern voice. But as far as what he was wearing, what kind of shoes he was wearing, I don’t know anything about that.”
While the 52-year-old Bernazard’s actions were over-the-top no matter what the motivation, alleged underage drinking on the team apparently was one motivation for the eruption, an organization source said. Still, sending players to counseling rather than challenging them to a rumble might have been a more appropriate course of action.
Binghamton went 1-6 during an early July home stand against New Hampshire and Erie that coincided with that tumult. Three of the defeats came by at least seven runs. The team's longtime Double-A affiliate entered last night with a 36-58 record, in last place in the Eastern League's Northern Division.
"It's ridiculous that anyone in a professional baseball environment thinks it's acceptable," a friend of several B-Mets said about the treatment of the players.
The shoddy treatment of people in the system has led to mocking of the VP behind his back.
The News reported Tuesday that Bernazard, one of GM Omar Minaya's top lieutenants, recently erupted at the organization's manager of baseball operations. During a game at Citi Field, scouts took their customary seats in a row behind home plate. Bernazard showed up during play and wanted a seat occupied by a D-Backs scout. Bernazard's deputy, already seated in the row, suggested to the Mets VP that he wait until the half-inning ended, to minimize the disruption. Bernazard ripped into his deputy with a profanity-laced tirade as scouts and patrons watched in disbelief.
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Fman99
Jul 22 2009 06:14 AM
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="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Holy crap!
| ]
Sources: Mets VP for player development Tony Bernazard challenges Binghamton Mets to fight
Read more: [url]http://tinyurl.com/mqwc2r[/url]
The Binghamton Mets clubhouse nearly turned into a scene out of WWE Raw recently, when VP for player development Tony Bernazard removed his shirt and challenged the Double-A players to a fight during a postgame tirade, multiples sources told the Daily News.
Bernazard particularly went after middle infield prospect Jose Coronado, using a slang term associated with a woman’s anatomy, a source indicated. The confrontation happened about 10days before the All-Star break, according to insiders.
“That’s an all-timer if true,” an AL official said upon hearing the account, which was corroborated by multiple people with ties to the Mets.
GM Omar Minaya acknowledged Bernazard spoke to the B-Mets in a “stern voice,” but said he had no knowledge of the scope being portrayed.
“I know he did have a team meeting with them,” Minaya told the Daily News. “It was not a ‘you-guys-have-been-great meeting.’ I know he spoke to them in a stern voice. But as far as what he was wearing, what kind of shoes he was wearing, I don’t know anything about that.”
While the 52-year-old Bernazard’s actions were over-the-top no matter what the motivation, alleged underage drinking on the team apparently was one motivation for the eruption, an organization source said. Still, sending players to counseling rather than challenging them to a rumble might have been a more appropriate course of action.
Binghamton went 1-6 during an early July home stand against New Hampshire and Erie that coincided with that tumult. Three of the defeats came by at least seven runs. The team's longtime Double-A affiliate entered last night with a 36-58 record, in last place in the Eastern League's Northern Division.
"It's ridiculous that anyone in a professional baseball environment thinks it's acceptable," a friend of several B-Mets said about the treatment of the players.
The shoddy treatment of people in the system has led to mocking of the VP behind his back.
The News reported Tuesday that Bernazard, one of GM Omar Minaya's top lieutenants, recently erupted at the organization's manager of baseball operations. During a game at Citi Field, scouts took their customary seats in a row behind home plate. Bernazard showed up during play and wanted a seat occupied by a D-Backs scout. Bernazard's deputy, already seated in the row, suggested to the Mets VP that he wait until the half-inning ended, to minimize the disruption. Bernazard ripped into his deputy with a profanity-laced tirade as scouts and patrons watched in disbelief.
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Wow, he really has turned into [url=http://www.angelfire.com/nd/billbrasky/]Bill Brasky.[/url]
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metirish
Jul 22 2009 06:35 AM
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Holy crap is right , a bit sensationlist by the News though?
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Nymr83
Jul 22 2009 06:40 AM
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I've heard enough about Bernazard that I wish they'd can him, even though I can't say it would help the team any.
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duan
Jul 22 2009 06:43 AM
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he sounds like he'd be fun to go out with though doesn't he?
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John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jul 22 2009 07:00 AM
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It would have been cool if Brad Holt and Jose Coronado and Mike Nickeas beat him up.
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Nymr83
Jul 22 2009 07:02 AM
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="John Cougar Lunchbucket":7x833utn]It would have been cool if Brad Holt and Jose Coronado and Mike Nickeas beat him up.[/quote:7x833utn]
the way things have gone this year Holt would have injured his throwing arm in the process.
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Edgy DC
Jul 22 2009 07:15 AM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 22 2009 07:28 AM
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| ]Bernazard particularly went after middle infield prospect Jose Coronado, using a slang term associated with a woman’s anatomy, a source indicated. |
"This organization needs a shortstop and here you are still down here playing like shit in AA, you... you... <i>ovarie!</i> That's right. I said it. And if any of you other ovaries got a problem with that you can gaze at my oily torso in despair."
Somehow, somebody got a cellphone shot of this.
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seawolf17
Jul 22 2009 07:25 AM
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I was sure that was going to be a joke link. Holy moley.
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metirish
Jul 22 2009 07:27 AM
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I'm having a tough time not conjuring up stereotypes here in my head thinking about this...
Did he have that crazy Tony Montana look about him I wonder.
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seawolf17
Jul 22 2009 07:28 AM
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I have a message in with my B-Mets contact to see if he's willing to confirm this.
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Edgy DC
Jul 22 2009 07:30 AM
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Damien Magnifico to agent: "I think my asking price just went up a few hundred grand, Gee."
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Edgy DC
Jul 22 2009 07:45 AM
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You know, because Randolph had just been fired, the takeaway from <a href="http://gothambaseballmagazine.com/mets/peas-in-a-pod.html" target="_blank">Mark Healey's celebrated Bernazard exposé</a> last year was that Tony was behind the axing, but perhaps what we should have been gleaning --- and the angle Healey should have been working --- was that Tony was a huge tool. (And that Bob Klapisch's reputation was "excellent." Huh?)
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bmfc1
Jul 22 2009 08:07 AM
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This is now on espn.com. Congrats Mets for becoming even more of an embarrassment.
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metsguyinmichigan
Jul 22 2009 08:12 AM
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“That’s an all-timer if true,” an AL official said upon hearing the account, which was corroborated by multiple people with ties to the Mets.
--The story is weakened by crap like this.
1) Who is an "AL official?" Someone who works for an AL club? In what capacity? A GM or veteran scout or someone who would know what an "all-timer" actually would be?
2) That's a pretty weak-assed quote to allow someone to hide behind. You couldn't get someone on the record to say something like that or better?
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John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jul 22 2009 08:14 AM
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I like the idea of renaming the Jackie Robinson Rotunda the Tony Bernazard Rotunda, where the walls will be inscribed with his unique inspirational values:
BACK-STABBING * VIOLENCE * PROFANITY * SCHEMING * PATRONIZATION
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metsguyinmichigan
Jul 22 2009 08:15 AM
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Why is this guy still employed?
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Edgy DC
Jul 22 2009 08:24 AM
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Because bad press and bad performance aren't always the same thing, so while we may want instant justice, we need to await the dreaded internal investigation.
Even Bill Singer dangled for a week before the Mets let him go.
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metirish
Jul 22 2009 08:24 AM
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="John Cougar Lunchbucket":iva1vdjz]I like the idea of renaming the Jackie Robinson Rotunda the Tony Bernazard Rotunda, where the walls will be inscribed with his unique inspirational values:
BACK-STABBING * VIOLENCE * PROFANITY * SCHEMING * PATRONIZATION[/quote:iva1vdjz]
A great idea.....
None of this wold look so bad if the Mets were nine games in front and not behind.
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soupcan
Jul 22 2009 08:25 AM
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| ="metsguyinmichigan"]“That’s an all-timer if true,” an AL official said upon hearing the account, which was corroborated by multiple people with ties to the Mets.
--The story is weakened by crap like this.
1) Who is an "AL official?" Someone who works for an AL club? In what capacity? A GM or veteran scout or someone who would know what an "all-timer" actually would be?
2) That's a pretty weak-assed quote to allow someone to hide behind. You couldn't get someone on the record to say something like that or better? |
Whenever I read 'AL official' or 'NL official' in a local paper I always think that its someone on the Yanks or Mets. Maybe even Cashman or Minaya commenting on the other's club. Who else would a local baseball writer go to for a comment? Some joker on the Twins? you gotta think those guys are on the speed dial anyway - BEEP BOP BOOP - bbrriiiing, bbrriiiing 'Hey Cash, can you give me an anonymous quote?'
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Edgy DC
Jul 22 2009 08:25 AM
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And really, with two reports of seperate and distinct profanity-laced tirades --- each spiced with details of irrationality --- don't you want to see if drugs are involved?
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metsguyinmichigan
Jul 22 2009 08:28 AM
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="Edgy DC":261e5jzn]And really, with two reports of seperate and distinct profanity-laced tirades, don't you want to see if drugs are involved?[/quote:261e5jzn]
I don't see the connection here, Edgy. Ozzie Guillen swears a blue streak, but I'd never ask whether he was on drugs.
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metirish
Jul 22 2009 08:29 AM
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We need Omar in the booth again tonight for his take on this , it can't be easy being a VP for baseball operations in NY , especially in NY.
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John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jul 22 2009 08:31 AM
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Interesting too that the Mets acknowledge a problem with the B-Mets.
If there was really "underage drinking" going on there are only two suspects.
Jenrry Meija (19) and Ruben Tejada (20) come on down.
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Edgy DC
Jul 22 2009 08:41 AM
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="metsguyinmichigan":3vvi95kr]="Edgy DC":3vvi95kr]And really, with two reports of seperate and distinct profanity-laced tirades, don't you want to see if drugs are involved?[/quote:3vvi95kr]
I don't see the connection here, Edgy. Ozzie Guillen swears a blue streak, but I'd never ask whether he was on drugs.[/quote:3vvi95kr]
Taking off your shirt to bully 25 guys 20-25 years younger than you is pretty fucking insane. And if I got confirmation that an employee had done such a thing, I'd ask a few pointed questions.
He may well have just been showering in the locker room and partially dressed for innocent reasons. My greater point is that teams tend to investigate these things on their own terms --- rather than taking the press account as the last word --- before making thier choices. And I can get behind that, even though it's true enough that what the press reports is often well known to the team and it's only when it becomes public that the issue is forced.
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metsguyinmichigan
Jul 22 2009 08:47 AM
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="Edgy DC":1j7avanm]="metsguyinmichigan":1j7avanm]="Edgy DC":1j7avanm]And really, with two reports of seperate and distinct profanity-laced tirades, don't you want to see if drugs are involved?[/quote:1j7avanm]
I don't see the connection here, Edgy. Ozzie Guillen swears a blue streak, but I'd never ask whether he was on drugs.[/quote:1j7avanm]
Taking off your shirt to bully 25 guys 20-25 years younger than you is pretty fucking insane. And if I got confirmation that an employee had done such a thing, I'd ask a few pointed questions.
He may well have just been showering in the locker room and partially dressed for innocent reasons. My greater point is that teams tend to investigate these things on their own terms --- rather than taking the press account as the last word --- before making thier choices. And I can get behind that, even though it's true enough that what the press reports is often well known to the team and it's only when it becomes public that the issue is forced.[/quote:1j7avanm]
Ah.
He should have thrown bats on the shower floor and called them "lollygaggers!"
One of my favorite scenes in that movie!
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Centerfield
Jul 22 2009 08:52 AM
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Full disclosure here, when I was arguing with Edgy about the Franceour trade, I was shirtless too.
And flexing while I typed.
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Centerfield
Jul 22 2009 08:56 AM
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Getting back to Tony, not that I know if any of this is true, but you have to be impressed by the sheer number of rumors floating around about a mid-level executive.
1. Spoke "Street Spanish" to Delgado.
2. Undermined Randolph
3. Undermined Manuel
4. Two profanity laced-tirades in one week. One shirtless.
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jul 22 2009 09:31 AM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 22 2009 09:39 AM
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| ="Centerfield"]Getting back to Tony, not that I know if any of this is true, but you have to be impressed by the sheer number of rumors floating around about a mid-level executive.
1. Spoke "Street Spanish" to Delgado.
2. Undermined Randolph
3. Undermined Manuel
4. Two profanity laced-tirades in one week. One shirtless. |
Don't forget-- the shirtless one was actually a threat of violence, so he's a groped secretary and a dropped vial away from the bad-workplace-behavior cycle. Hell, how many mid-level execs' names do you know? MFY Chief Voldemort Lonn Trost has a lower profile.
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MFS62
Jul 22 2009 09:34 AM
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| ] Bernazard particularly went after middle infield prospect Jose Coronado, using a slang term associated with a woman’s anatomy, a source indicated. |
And concerning that tirade at Binghamton:
When I saw them play, I commented to my companions how much I thought Coronado wasn't any good. He showed a weak, impatient, bat and bad defense.
But I never got a close-up look like Tony had, to discover that Coronado's real problem was sexual.
Later
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metirish
Jul 22 2009 09:36 AM
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I wonder how many of these kids Bernazard scouted and pushed to get signed , we know Murphy is his. Maybe this is a source of his frustration , don't piss away your future like I am apparently.
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jul 22 2009 09:47 AM
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Harazin, Super Scouts, Steve Phillips, the Minaya lieutenants, Madoff...
... it's a shame for Mr. W that being a bad judge of character doesn't entitle one to a tax writeoff.
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Farmer Ted
Jul 22 2009 09:48 AM
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Tony B., 1986 Cleveland Indians. 5-9, 160 lbs, 17 home runs.
First generation MLB juicer.
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Nymr83
Jul 22 2009 10:26 AM
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| ]None of this <strike> wold look so bad </strike> would be in the papers if the Mets were nine games in front and not behind. |
fixed.
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duan
Jul 22 2009 10:36 AM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 22 2009 10:49 AM
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ah I kinda like the sorta of image of the crazy bad ass dude off his head on coke and going round the place like a lunatic.
course I'd tell him to go fuck himself if he thinks i'm going to continue to be employed by him, but then these guys can't because they're indentured servants.
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G-Fafif
Jul 22 2009 10:48 AM
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="John Cougar Lunchbucket":dx0l2ebw]I like the idea of renaming the Jackie Robinson Rotunda the Tony Bernazard Rotunda, where the walls will be inscribed with his unique inspirational values:
BACK-STABBING * VIOLENCE * PROFANITY * SCHEMING * PATRONIZATION[/quote:dx0l2ebw]
It could happen. Bernazard didn't play for the Mets either.
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Ceetar
Jul 22 2009 11:04 AM
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I really have no way to evaluate the job he's done professionally, but there are enough rumors of him undermining things and causing problems that I find it hard to believe he can't be replaced, and easily.
It's been pretty apparent for years that this "Full autonomy" that Omar wanted isn't actually there (Which may be why he got the contract, and is safe. Maybe much of what are considered his worst mistakes were actually things he was overruled on?) and that there is a big disconnect between the team, manager, and front office. If this Bernazard character has any role in it, he should be... pumped up in the media and traded to the Phillies.
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Edgy DC
Jul 22 2009 12:19 PM
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<i><a href="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/baseball/mlb/07/22/Tony.Bernazard/index.html" target="_blank">Sports Illustrated</a></i> has picked it up.
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John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jul 22 2009 12:27 PM
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="Ceetar":r09rrzs1]I really have no way to evaluate the job he's done professionally, but there are enough rumors of him undermining things and causing problems that I find it hard to believe he can't be replaced, and easily.
[/quote:r09rrzs1]
Unless you buy Rubin's stories from last summer indicating that Tony was not Omar's underling but his rival for power and influence with the Wilpons. There was some speculation that he was in line to take over as GM were Omar to be held accountable for last year.
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Edgy DC
Jul 22 2009 01:00 PM
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I knew somebody would get <a href="http://fr.truveo.com/The-Incredible-Hulk-The-Phenom/id/1912383684" target="_blank">footage</a>.
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John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jul 22 2009 01:04 PM
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Mets say they take this matter "very seriously" and will investigate.
I kinda find it funny.
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metirish
Jul 22 2009 01:11 PM
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| ="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Mets say they take this matter "very seriously" and will investigate.
I kinda find it funny. |
SNY should do a Tony Bernazard Reality show.
Ten " lucky" contestants get to compete in various baseball related activities with the "winner" landing the plum job of driving Tony B around.
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Farmer Ted
Jul 22 2009 04:53 PM
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Tony B. was responsible for shutting down this website for the last two hours.
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Triple Dee
Jul 22 2009 05:11 PM
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Were the profanities spoken in "street Spanish"?
It's not difficult to appreciate that Bernazard's a f_tard, but too much has been made of this. I mean, when the Genius was challenging Bonilla to fisticuffs in the dugout, fans were admiring his passion.
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metirish
Jul 22 2009 05:11 PM
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From Lennon
The Mets are presently discussing the fate of Tony Bernazard, the vice president of player development, after a report surfaced today that he bullied the Double-A team in Binghamton and challenged the players to a fight in the clubhouse.
A person familiar with the situation said today that general manager Omar Minaya was trying to save Bernazard's job and it appears that he will not be fired. Minaya also attempted to protect Willie Randolph before he was fired last June. But it was Bernazard, who had been overly critical of Randolph, that ultimately succeeded in his efforts to get the manager axed.
The Mets have refused comment on the subject today other than to issue a one-line statement: "We take these reports very seriously and are investigating the matters."
According to a report in the Daily News, Bernazard took his shirt off during a tirade and targeted infielder Jose Coronado. The incident occurred about 10 days before the All-Star break, the report said.
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seawolf17
Jul 22 2009 05:34 PM
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Seemed like such a good guy when I met him so many years ago.
<a href="http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y56/cdorso/?action=view¤t=scan0005.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y56/cdorso/scan0005.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
The question is, do I include the card he autographed for me that day in my Mets collection? I guess he counts, right? I have other front-office types.
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metirish
Jul 22 2009 05:42 PM
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Great picture Wolf, your son looks the very same as you there.
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Rockin' Doc
Jul 22 2009 05:48 PM
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The Mets arer slowly becoming the baseball equivalent of the Knicks. It's embarrassing for the organization.
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metirish
Jul 22 2009 05:53 PM
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Gary Cohen brought this up just now in the booth , " it would behoove the Mets to deal with this quickly"
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Farmer Ted
Jul 22 2009 05:58 PM
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Behoove. Such a Columbia guy.
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Swan Swan H
Jul 22 2009 06:32 PM
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Gary is up to about five or six shirtlessness references already.
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metsguyinmichigan
Jul 22 2009 09:34 PM
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Screw firing him for cursing and shirt-removal.
How about firing him for his role in assembling a crappy team that can't score more than one run in two games against a team so awful it rivals the 1962 team?
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Edgy DC
Jul 22 2009 09:40 PM
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That takes a some deliberaton also.
I think he should be fired because on the way home from Bingo he stopped off in Cambridge and arrested Henry Louis Gates.
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Elster88
Jul 22 2009 10:15 PM
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| ]The Binghamton Mets clubhouse nearly turned into a scene out of WWE Raw recently, when VP for player development Tony Bernazard removed his shirt and challenged the Double-A players to a fight during a postgame tirade, multiples sources told the Daily News. |
A similar scene was written out of Major League because it was deemed "too far-fetched".
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Ashie62
Jul 23 2009 01:56 AM
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I'm beginning to pine for the DeRoulet years..With no expectations you could truly savor every win..And sit anywhere at Shea..
Steve Henderson, I miss you
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metirish
Jul 23 2009 04:29 AM
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| ="Centerfield"]Getting back to Tony, not that I know if any of this is true, but you have to be impressed by the sheer number of rumors floating around about a mid-level executive.
1. Spoke "Street Spanish" to Delgado.
2. Undermined Randolph
3. Undermined Manuel
4. Two profanity laced-tirades in one week. One shirtless. |
Gary mentioned during the game that Tony B had shouting matches with Frankie Rodriguez and Santana recently.
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metsmarathon
Jul 23 2009 05:44 AM
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well, that's helpful... those are the guys you want to be yelling at nowadays.
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Edgy DC
Jul 23 2009 05:54 AM
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Got to thank Gary for his independence, there.
Beating up on vets with long-term contracts is hardly as lame as beating up on AA players and scouts, who could be let go in a second with little cost to the organization. But it may be what does him in.
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bmfc1
Jul 23 2009 06:28 AM
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Sherman nails it in point #2. Either the Mets knew and did nothing until it became public or didn't know until it became public and both possibilities are inexcusable. Plus, what exactly are the Mets "investigating" now? Did the guy do those things? Everyone knows he did.
http://blogs.nypost.com/sports/st/archi ... ernaz.html
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metirish
Jul 23 2009 06:39 AM
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Great back page today
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PiggiesTomatoes
Jul 23 2009 06:42 AM
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I'm not a fan of Sherman's but felt the entire post was spot on. I also agree with Rockin' Doc's assessment that the Mets are looking more and more like the Knicks.
Crappy as it is, this situation represents an opportunity to "clean house." Whether Minaya either knew of the situation and failed to act or didn't know of what happened in Binghamton are equally inexcusable for an executive and grounds for dismissal. Tony B., he's toast.
The Wilpon's love cover. Bernazard's actions and Minaya's inaction clearly provide that.
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metirish
Jul 23 2009 07:13 AM
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I don't want to sound mean spirited here but Omar came across as a completely clueless fool yesterday when talking to reporters.
Trotting out the old "this is NY" line and this is what we can expect here in the big town sounded just stupid.
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John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jul 23 2009 07:24 AM
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I think Sherman's got it right too. The organization is having the very same who's-the-boss confusion that doomed Duquette. Steve Phillips of all people had a great remark: "They don't believe in a chain of command."
The Snooze is having a great time with this, the cover is hilarious and there's a spread inside with shirtless athlete pics -- J-E-T-S fans, Brandi Chastain, Arod in Central Park, Hulk Hogan tearing off his t-shirt in the ring, etc.
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Edgy DC
Jul 23 2009 07:38 AM
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I don't think the Wilpons "pride themselves on a lack of structure." Isn't that a little broad a conclusion to draw out of this sorry mess?
I think it's more true that structure breaks down in a time of crisis, and alpha-types rush to fill the void.
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Valadius
Jul 23 2009 07:42 AM
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I for one would prefer my player development people not to rip their shirts off, call minor leaguers "fucking pussies", and challenge them to fights. But that's just me.
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metirish
Jul 23 2009 07:51 AM
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="Valadius":19xn2hx7] But that's just me.[/quote:19xn2hx7]
Well it's not just you is it?
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MFS62
Jul 23 2009 08:21 AM
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All those outbursts.
Hmmm.
I wonder when baseball is going to start investigating front office steroid use.
Later
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metirish
Jul 23 2009 08:46 AM
Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 23 2009 08:48 AM
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From the new look Newsday
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Binghamton Mets manager Mako Oliveras said Wednesday that drinking by players and poor play led to a meeting early this month where Mets vice president of player development Tony Bernazard took off his shirt, but that he did not challenge any players to fight.
Oliveras said the team bus driver told him there was an empty beer can on the bus, a violation of team rules. Oliveras said the drinking was limited to one or two players, and just one beer can. Infielder Ruben Tejada, 19, was part of the circle of players drinking but didn't drink himself, according to Oliveras.
Oliveras said Bernazard did take his shirt off in an effort to pump up a team that's now 22 games below .500, but that he had a T-shirt underneath it.
"I'd put my head under an 18-wheeler that what happened here has been blown out of proportion," Oliveras said. "Tony doesn't deserve what he's going through right now."
Infielder Jose Coronado, who the Daily News reported was insulted vulgarly by Bernazard, said he had no problem with him. Catcher Josh Thole said the story was taken "way too far."
Oliveras denied that players were upset with the meeting Bernazard held. "What happens in here, it stays in here,'' Oliveras said. "That might be a smoke bomb, trying to put the blame on the players." |
Newsday also reporting that he is unlikely to be fired.
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Ceetar
Jul 23 2009 08:46 AM
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Did I miss why Bernazard was in binghamton anyway? Nevermind in the clubhouse.
I'm hoping the only reason they haven't fired him yet is they're decided who will take over the day to day jobs he has, assuming he has one..
Hopefully that'll fix up the whole Front Office not being on the same page, including the manager, but I doubt it.
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Edgy DC
Jul 23 2009 08:53 AM
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Or maybe the whole thing has been blown out of proportion.
Of course, citing the culture of "what happens in the clubhouse, stays in the clubhouse" doesn't do much for your veracity.
| ]Did I miss why Bernazard was in binghamton anyway? |
He's vice president of player development.
Aside: The rush to judgment that internet has encouraged is maddening.
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Ceetar
Jul 23 2009 08:55 AM
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VP was my point. I know what his title is.
That's like seeing a Supreme Court Justice at a random federal court in Utah.
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John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jul 23 2009 08:57 AM
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="Edgy DC"]Or, you know, maybe the whole thing has been blown out of proportion.
Of course, citing the culture of "what happens in the clubhouse, stays in the clubhouse" doesn't do much for your veracity.
| ]Did I miss why Bernazard was in binghamton anyway? |
He's vice president of player development. |
And he was there to reprimand the players for an underage drinking violation. I find it a little bit interesting that were it not for a shirtless Bernazard becoming the news, there was probably something he was there to address that itself was newsworthy. I mean, drinking is not a big deal, it's the stuff that gets broken, the teenagers who get vilolated, the local establishments that get torn up, etc. that bring it to the attention of the bosses. So I wonder what that was all about.
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Edgy DC
Jul 23 2009 08:58 AM
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="Ceetar":b2b91iu1]That's like seeing a Supreme Court Justice at a random federal court in Utah.[/quote:b2b91iu1]
No, it's not. It's a traveling job.
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metirish
Jul 23 2009 09:02 AM
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The bit I cut and pasted above has the AA manager and Josh Thole defending Bernazard , if that's worth anything. I happen to think it is.
Apparently Tony B did take his shirt off but had a tee on underneath...
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Ceetar
Jul 23 2009 09:10 AM
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="metirish":3bw4ltgj]The bit I cut and pasted above has the AA manager and Josh Thole defending Bernazard , if that's worth anything. I happen to think it is.
Apparently Tony B did take his shirt off but had a tee on underneath...[/quote:3bw4ltgj]
Is it a traveling job? That doesn't strike me as very VPish..doesn't he have underlings, scouts, etc? He's certainly not VP in charge of discipline. He's just got a big ego. Why not just a phone call to Binghamton, "What's the deal up there? This stuff true? Reign in your team."
Still doesn't mean he needed be in the clubhouse calling guys pussies. Was Coranado even one of the guys that was "in trouble"?
And of course these guys are going to back down and deny it. For many of the same reasons they didn't actually pummel him into a locker. They know he's powerful and in some control of whether or not they move up within the organization. As bad as things are, they don't want to be traded to the Pirates.
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John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jul 23 2009 09:16 AM
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| ="metirish"]The bit I cut and pasted above has the AA manager and Josh Thole defending Bernazard , if that's worth anything. I happen to think it is.
Apparently Tony B did take his shirt off but had a tee on underneath... |
Didn't see that, thanks (snoozeday's new look --ugh). Here is a pretty strong denial from the B-Mets themslves. Now you gotta wonder who Rubin's source was and their motivation...
| ]July 23, 2009
B-Mets: Report on Bernazard overblown
N.Y. official allegedly tried to pick fight during tirade
By Brian Moritz
bmoritz@gannett.com
BINGHAMTON - On Wednesday, the Binghamton Mets found themselves thrust into the middle of the latest controversy involving the New York Mets front office.
The Double-A squad spent the day trying to downplay a story in the New York Daily News that said Tony Bernazard, the Mets' vice president for player development, ripped his shirt off and challenged the players to a fight during a post-game tirade in the team's NYSEG Stadium clubhouse July 1.
"I think it's been blown out of proportion," B-Mets manager Mako Oliveras said after his team's 9-3 loss to the Connecticut Defenders. "Tony was trying to pump the players up. He took his shirt off but he had a T-shirt on underneath. To me, he never threatened anybody or asked anybody to fight. Before he started the meeting, he took his shirt off. That's it. I'm telling you, it's been blown out of proportion."
The story, written by Adam Rubin and citing unidentified sources, also reported that Bernazard singled out B-Mets shortstop Jose Coronado and insulted the player.
"No, he didn't call me a name or ask me to fight," Coronado said.
The New York Mets issued a one-sentence statement saying: "We take these reports very seriously and are investigating the matter."
Mets general manager Omar Minaya addressed the incident with reporters in Washington before Wednesday's loss to the Nationals.
"Put it this way: You never like to have these things; you never like to have these reports out there," Minaya told The New York Times. "When you have a big department, these things happen. What you need to do once reports are out is that you look at them. I think what we're going to do is investigate it. We're going to do all those things and go from there."
Minaya didn't say how long the Mets' investigation would take or what punishment Bernazard could face.
Bernazard, who lives in Princeton, N.J., could not be reached for comment.
The reported incident happened after the B-Mets' 5-3 loss to the New Hampshire Fisher Cats at NYSEG Stadium. After the game, the B-Mets' clubhouse remained closed for 25 minutes for a meeting- the team's third closed-door post-game meeting of the season.
Bernazard walked out of the clubhouse after 10 minutes and quickly left the stadium. There was no indication in the clubhouse that anything out of the ordinary had happened.
According to the Daily News, Bernazard went on a post-game "tirade," at one point ripping off his shirt and challenging the players to a fight.
"Tony doesn't deserve what he's going through," Oliveras said. "I'm not saying that because he brought me here. I've seen managers, I've seen owners, I've seen GMs try to get the best out of players. I've seen it a hundred times."
The story also reported that Bernazard was partially motivated by underage drinking on the team. There are two players under 21 on the roster- shortstop Ruben Tejada and injured pitcher Jenrry Mejia.
Oliveras said that earlier that week, the team bus driver told him that he had found a beer bottle on the team's bus after a road trip to Akron - a violation of a Mets organization rule. Oliveras said Tejada was with a group of players that included one or two who had a beer but that the shortstop was not the one drinking. Oliveras didn't say who was drinking, but said he handled the matter in-house.
At the time, the B-Mets had lost 22 of their previous 30 games.
Bernazard was the top story in the Daily News, with a picture of Bernazard taking up the entire back page of the tabloid with the headline "Fight Club."
"This has been taken way too far," B-Mets catcher Josh Thole said. "It's uncalled for as far as you guys (the media) blowing this out of proportion, so I don't think anything more should be said about it."
Bernazard, 52, has been with the Mets since 2004 and oversees the Mets farm system. He played in the big leagues for 10 seasons, with Montreal, Chicago, Seattle, Cleveland, Oakland and Detroit. Before joining the Mets, he worked for more than a decade with the Major League Baseball Players Association.
Bernazard has come under fire recently for the Mets' minor-league struggles as well as a series of off-field incidents.
Earlier this week, the Daily News reported that Bernazard cursed out one of his deputies in front of several scouts and fans at Citi Field. On Wednesday, the New York Post reported on its Web site that Bernazard and Mets reliever Francisco Rodriguez got into a shouting match on the team bus. |
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SteveJRogers
Jul 23 2009 09:56 AM
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="John Cougar Lunchbucket":2raamsdn]
Didn't see that, thanks (snoozeday's new look --ugh). Here is a pretty strong denial from the B-Mets themslves. Now you gotta wonder who Rubin's source was and their motivation...
[/quote:2raamsdn]
Someone who is looking for a complete overhaul of the Met front office?
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Fman99
Jul 23 2009 10:00 AM
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="SteveJRogers":xkgg2vhf]="John Cougar Lunchbucket":xkgg2vhf]
Didn't see that, thanks (snoozeday's new look --ugh). Here is a pretty strong denial from the B-Mets themslves. Now you gotta wonder who Rubin's source was and their motivation...
[/quote:xkgg2vhf]
Someone who is looking for a complete overhaul of the Met front office?[/quote:xkgg2vhf]
That doesn't rule out ANYBODY.
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duan
Jul 23 2009 10:01 AM
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="John Cougar Lunchbucket":2zq1piak]
Didn't see that, thanks (snoozeday's new look --ugh). Here is a pretty strong denial from the B-Mets themslves. Now you gotta wonder who Rubin's source was and their motivation...
[/quote:2zq1piak]
Jerry Manuel
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metirish
Jul 23 2009 10:02 AM
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There are times now and in the past when I have wondered if Rubin has an axe to grind with Bernazard . I may be wrong here but IIRC most of the reporting on Bernazard has come from Rubin.
I must submit a question about that in his next chat.
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John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jul 23 2009 10:18 AM
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="duan":1iw4w0qg]="John Cougar Lunchbucket":1iw4w0qg]
Didn't see that, thanks (snoozeday's new look --ugh). Here is a pretty strong denial from the B-Mets themslves. Now you gotta wonder who Rubin's source was and their motivation...
[/quote:1iw4w0qg]
Jerry Manuel[/quote:1iw4w0qg]
Whoever it is seems to want to put both Tony and Omar out of a job, since Tony looks bad for having this stigma on him and Omar looks bad for so badly policing everything. My thought (pure wild speculation) is Omar's assistant, John Ricco. It seems his duties may be the kind that get stepped on by Bernazard, and I wouldn't doubt that a tighter ship could be run.
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SteveJRogers
Jul 23 2009 10:20 AM
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="Ceetar":1002y1w0]
And of course these guys are going to back down and deny it. For many of the same reasons they didn't actually pummel him into a locker. They know he's powerful and in some control of whether or not they move up within the organization. As bad as things are, they don't want to be traded to the Pirates.[/quote:1002y1w0]
That is an excellent point. Since Tony B is still in the organization, for now, it would be very wise of them to clam up and act like it wasn't a big deal. Otherwise THEY'D be the ones on the chopping block, or they'd get treated as if they were a bunch of rats by the rest of the organization if Tony B eventually does get fired.
Its better for their job security as a AA manager and AA players to treat the incident as a "no big deal" than acting like rats coming out of the woodwork.
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SteveJRogers
Jul 23 2009 10:23 AM
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Ceetar
Jul 23 2009 10:25 AM
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="SteveJRogers":3o7wzut1]="bmfc1":3o7wzut1]Heyman said yesterday that it was someone connect with Willie Randolph:
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseb ... osure.html[/quote:3o7wzut1]
There is speculation though that Tony B is Heyman's "source" within the Met organization[/quote:3o7wzut1]
You know, when he made his "Some papers don't like one guy, other papers like other guys" comment on the radio yesterday i was thinking just that. He thinks it's blown out of proportion because of self interest.
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John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jul 23 2009 10:29 AM
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Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone.
PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him.
| ]Tony did not
( I repeat ),
did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... |
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metirish
Jul 23 2009 10:34 AM
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Good find JCL.....
This is turning into a real who done it Mets style.
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jul 23 2009 10:54 AM
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| ="Edgy DC"]I don't think the Wilpons "pride themselves on a lack of structure." Isn't that a little broad a conclusion to draw out of this sorry mess?
I think it's more true that structure breaks down in a time of crisis, and alpha-types rush to fill the void. |
Out of this particular mess, in and of itself? Judging from what actual facts are out/confirmed (sussing those from the mere whispers, though the whispers are deafening), yep, it seems a bit sweeping. Stepping back and taking a broader look, though...
Let's put it this way-- it would explain a LOT of the recurrent organizational problems of the last 15-20 years (from the bridge-burning of late Cashen/Harazin to Phillips/Valentine clashes to "Superscouts"/Duquette to last year's tumult). Free-flowing, open-doors work environments work fantastically well... if you have the exact mix of self-motivated/highly-organized personalities-- and good actors-- such a system requires. Just one or two bad actors in key spots, or lack of trust between two parties that can't be resolved, and you've got a bigger problem than you could ever have in a straight defined-duties/chain-of-command situation... largely because of accountability issues. (The foot-dragging on virtually every dismissal within the organization in the last 25 years would fit this explanation neatly.)
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Edgy DC
Jul 23 2009 11:04 AM
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That's fair, I guess. It's certialnly a better organized argument. I still wouldn't conclude that but I guess it's defensible. But why couldn't an aggressive go-getter like Valentine have workded around Steve Phillips then? Seemed like he tried to defer to command structure even though he didn't respect his superior. Plillips fired Valentine. Minaya fired Randolph, on the road. So neither appeared to be answering or reporting directly to ownership in those situations.
That doesn't disprove anything. I'm just throwing stuff out there. It seems to me that back door conniving makes for good press because it makes for good drama, but the evidence often isn't really there when you look for it.
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Frayed Knot
Jul 23 2009 11:39 AM
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="Ceetar":q7gffp31]Is it a traveling job? That doesn't strike me as very VPish..doesn't he have underlings, scouts, etc? He's certainly not VP in charge of discipline. He's just got a big ego. Why not just a phone call to Binghamton, "What's the deal up there? This stuff true? Reign in your team."[/quote:q7gffp31]
Of course it's a traveling job. All GMs, much less assts, travel to minor league games and clubhouses and even amateur games for updates, scouting, look-sees, etc. Not constantly of course but often.
Can't make all your decisions based on reading reports and hear-say.
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Ceetar
Jul 23 2009 11:43 AM
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And what else am I supposed to make my decision on? It doesn't matter though, his job still doesn't entitle him to be taking his shirt off in the clubhouse. It's unprofessional at best. It's not his job to fire up the team or discuss strategy. the game's over, there is nothing left to evaluate. It's not his job to antagonize guys, or to fire them up, or to really do much of anything directly with them.
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Edgy DC
Jul 23 2009 11:46 AM
Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 23 2009 11:54 AM
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| ="Ceetar"]And what else am I supposed to make my decision on? |
By "You," I'm certain LF meant "One" as in "A baseball executive such as Tony Bernazard" --- not "You" as in "Ceetar."
| ]It doesn't matter though... |
But you asked.
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Frayed Knot
Jul 23 2009 11:47 AM
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No one's saying that his job title gives him license to be a dick in the Bingo clubhouse (if that's what happened) only that there's nothing unusual about him being there or with being concerned with what's going on in player development.
on edit: and, yes, by 'your decision' I meant front office types. They are the ones who can't only draft, sign, promote, cut, evaluate players from afar.
Can you imagine if a high draft pick (like maybe next year's the way things are going) flames out soon afterward and the story from Omar & Tony (or whoever is in charge then) is that they never actually saw him play but the reports from the regional scout were great - in effect blaming a wasted few mil on some 3-levels-down evaluator? We'd drag the guy over the coals for an answer like that and rightfully so.
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Ceetar
Jul 23 2009 12:03 PM
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="Frayed Knot":3486d8jw]No one's saying that his job title gives him license to be a dick in the Bingo clubhouse (if that's what happened) only that there's nothing unusual about him being there or with being concerned with what's going on in player development.
on edit: and, yes, by 'your decision' I meant front office types. They are the ones who can't only draft, sign, promote, cut, evaluate players from afar.
Can you imagine if a high draft pick (like maybe next year's the way things are going) flames out soon afterward and the story from Omar & Tony (or whoever is in charge then) is that they never actually saw him play but the reports from the regional scout were great - in effect blaming a wasted few mil on some 3-levels-down evaluator? We'd drag the guy over the coals for an answer like that and rightfully so.[/quote:3486d8jw]
That's what I get for doing a thousand things at once. But yeah, but there is also the idea that there is too much of that to do for one person. Maybe I'm just think he's not deserved of the title. It seems like there should be one guy that less of a visit guy and more of a "trust the guys you hire to evaluate players". But maybe that's supposed to be Omar. But then isn't Tony just a glorified scout? Obviously the closer you get to big money the more people you want to look at him, but at one point you wonder if feedback is getting lost on the way up. If a scout likes the way one guy's curve looks, but Tony doesn't like it, does Omar even know a scout liked the curve?
I originally meant more what was he doing barging into a team meeting like he's the captain than what was he doing in binghamton (or wherever they were).
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Frayed Knot
Jul 23 2009 12:14 PM
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Well, again, the question that remains to be answered here is what did he say and how did he say it. Of course if you're of the opinion that he shouldn't be in the job in the first place then that's a whole 'nother angle.
As far as scouting/evaluating goes, usually that's the kind of thing that goes up the chain of command. A local scout might like a guy and recommend him to the regional scout, who'll then write a report to his boss and so on. With enough good evaluations it'll eventually get back to the home office where, if the reports are glowing enough or there's significant money to be spent, you bet the big boys are going to want to take a look themselves.
Trusting your people is one thing, but any corporation that takes that too far and lets their middle/lower mgmt types set their agenda for them is asking for trouble. No different here.
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jul 23 2009 12:27 PM
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| ="Frayed Knot"]Well, again, the question that remains to be answered here is what did he say and how did he say it. Of course if you're of the opinion that he shouldn't be in the job in the first place then that's a whole 'nother angle. |
Bernazard had, like no relevant experience in terms of baseball front-office-ery, right? No scouting experience, either, if memory serves... just the work on the WBC.
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metirish
Jul 23 2009 12:40 PM
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="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]| ="Frayed Knot"]Well, again, the question that remains to be answered here is what did he say and how did he say it. Of course if you're of the opinion that he shouldn't be in the job in the first place then that's a whole 'nother angle. |
Bernazard had, like no relevant experience in terms of baseball front-office-ery, right? No scouting experience, either, if memory serves... just the work on the WBC. |
Tony was a community organizer .
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jul 23 2009 12:56 PM
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="metirish":3iikmra1]
Tony was a community organizer .[/quote:3iikmra1]
Ha.
Matt Artus of Always Amazin' does a pretty good job of synthesizing a bunch of takes on the Bernazard trail (think of him as your case briefing, sleuths)--- going back to 2005-- [url=http://blog.nj.com/mets/2009/07/why_is_tony_bernazard_on_the_p.html:3iikmra1]over here.[/url:3iikmra1]
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Valadius
Jul 23 2009 03:30 PM
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Also, let's not forget the "Street Spanish" incident.
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G-Fafif
Jul 23 2009 04:14 PM
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="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone.
PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him.
| ]Tony did not
( I repeat ),
did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... |
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The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout.
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Edgy DC
Jul 23 2009 05:51 PM
Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 24 2009 11:46 AM
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Bernazard's CV according to the 2009 media guide
<ul><li>Joined the Mets on December 1, 2004 as Special Assistant to the General Manager.</li>
<li>Nowe serves as Vice President of Player development.</li>
<li>Played in the major leagues from 1979 to 1991 with various clubs, including the Montreal Expos, Chicago White Sox, Seattle Mariners, Cleveland Indians, Oakland A's, and Detroit Tiegers.... In addition, played three years in the Japanese Professonal League.</li>
<li>From 1992 until he jointe the mets, Tony worked with the Major League Baseball Players Association as a Special Assistant to the Executive Director.... In this capacity, Tony played a key role in labor negotiations, salary arbitration, and the globalization of baseball.</li>
<li>Was the General Manager for six (1992, 1996, 1998, 2000, 2002, and 2004) Major League All-Star teams that competed against Japanese All-Star teams.... Teh MLB All-Star teams won all six series.</li>
<li>In international competititions, served as the MLBPA's representative and liaison with the International Baseball Federation.</li>
<li>Also served on the seteering committee and was the MLBPA representative for the 2000 Olympic Gold Medal USA baseball team.</li></ul>
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John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jul 23 2009 06:41 PM
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="G-Fafif"]="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone.
PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him.
| ]Tony did not
( I repeat ),
did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... |
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The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout. |
Actually Madden's story (I know, a sloppy regurgitation of that which his colleague reported) specifically says:
| ]In the confrontation with Gomez, Bernazard screamed at the scout for sitting in his seat and angrily demanded him to move. Then when one of his own baseball operations men attempted to intercede, suggesting that they wait until the end of the inning for everyone in the scouts section to shift seats, Bernazard went ballistic and began cursing at his own man in front of all the other scouts.
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But that's what this figure (actually him? I have no idea) says didn't happen.
[url]http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/23/2009-07-23_omar_minaya_fire_tony_bernazard.html[/url]
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John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jul 23 2009 06:41 PM
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="G-Fafif"]="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Well, I think it's true that Madden's hard-on for all things late 70s Yankees influenced much of the over-the-top shame and outrage with which the Snooze covered the Willie firing last year. I also don't for a second doubt that Willie was the source of many of the anonymous whacks at Bernazard up until he was gone.
PS, over at BTF apparently the D-Backs' scout allegedly yelled at by Bernazard is denying Bernazard ever yelled at him. I mean, if that is really him.
| ]Tony did not
( I repeat ),
did NOT treat me that way (at all) and I'd hope that Mr. Madden fixes his story. Don't think Tony deserves that.... |
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The story was Tony bawled out his deputy, not the scout. |
Actually Madden's story (I know, a sloppy regurgitation of that which his colleague reported) specifically says:
| ]In the confrontation with Gomez, Bernazard screamed at the scout for sitting in his seat and angrily demanded him to move. Then when one of his own baseball operations men attempted to intercede, suggesting that they wait until the end of the inning for everyone in the scouts section to shift seats, Bernazard went ballistic and began cursing at his own man in front of all the other scouts.
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But that's what this figure (actually him? I have no idea) says didn't happen.
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G-Fafif
Jul 23 2009 06:51 PM
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I'm guessing many have been yelled at and called out by Tony Bernazard.
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Edgy DC
Jul 23 2009 08:09 PM
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Tony Bernazard, co-owner of the longest hitless streak by a non-pitcher in big-league history, has probably been yelled at once or twice himself.
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Rockin' Doc
Jul 23 2009 08:23 PM
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="Edgy DC":za1eefy5]Tony Bernazard, co-owner of the longest hitless streak by a non-pitcher in big-league history, has probably been yelled at once or twice himself.[/quote:za1eefy5]
I guess one of the players should have accepted Bernazard's challenge, since had he tried to hit anyone, he likely would have missed.
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Ashie62
Jul 23 2009 08:46 PM
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The only time I have taken my shirt off at work, dress shirt or otherwise would be while taking a 10 minute crap on a warm day in a poorly ventilated office bathroom
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PiggiesTomatoes
Jul 24 2009 06:21 AM
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From today's Post...
| ]"Bernazard also had a confrontation with closer Francisco Rodriguez last week in Atlanta, something Rodriguez confirmed to The Post. " |
If Omar doesn't go too, he's teflon.
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Edgy DC
Jul 24 2009 07:07 AM
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And so the drums beat.
Why?
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Nymr83
Jul 24 2009 07:51 AM
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Wait, is this seperate from Bernazard's argument with Rodriguez that we already heard about?
I know its hard to know what goes on behind closed doors, maybe this is par for the course in a major league organization and it just doesnt get out in most places, but I feel like I've heard enough "Bad Boy Bernazard" stories to wonder why the heck he is still here.
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Edgy DC
Jul 24 2009 07:58 AM
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Sure, but you also know articles are not without agenda. The Mets had nothing a few days ago that was moving papers. Every fifth day is the tragedy of Johan. Tired stuff.
But now... this is an electric story, and the tabloids have devoted absurd space to it. You'd think Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was back in town. Don't you think they'd inflate and rehash anything they had on him right now? Demons sell, and the press has one.
Maybe he does deserve to go, but I hope the Mets don't make that decision based on the number of inches of negative ink. Him staying or going is unlikely to save their season.
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Nymr83
Jul 24 2009 08:21 AM
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I already think the season isn't saveable, I just think that if everything we've heard is true that he's not a guy the organization needs around.
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Edgy DC
Jul 24 2009 08:27 AM
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Well, I agree, I guess, but that's something I consider meaningfully different from "I feel like I've heard enough 'Bad Boy Bernazard' stories to wonder why the heck he is still here." That suggests that the negative stories themselves, and not the Mets determination on their level of veracity, should be enough to trigger his firing.
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G-Fafif
Jul 24 2009 08:39 AM
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Do you think there's any chance the Mets might investigate the matter? Or if there'll be an investigation? Maybe an investigation would be in order. Somebody should definitely investigate.
I, for one, would like to hear from Omar Minaya regarding a potential investigation...or perhaps a plan in which investigating would take place.
Then, once an investigation is conducted, Omar can say the matter has been investigated. I'd feel a lot better if Omar would simply address the issue of a possible investigation.
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Edgy DC
Jul 24 2009 08:43 AM
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I think you're taking the piss with me, G.
What I'd like to hear is that the Mets have gone back in time and retroactively signed Adam Dunn.
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seawolf17
Jul 24 2009 08:47 AM
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="Edgy DC":33yv314c]What I'd like to hear is that the Mets have gone back in time and retroactively signed Adam Dunn.[/quote:33yv314c]
I'd like to investigate that possibility as well.
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G-Fafif
Jul 24 2009 08:49 AM
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Five bucks to the first deputy to tell a visibly impatient Tony Bernazard, "Keep your shirt on."
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Valadius
Jul 24 2009 10:36 AM
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I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers.
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Frayed Knot
Jul 24 2009 10:54 AM
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="Valadius":1uyyir7g]I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers.[/quote:1uyyir7g]
The Mets are getting contributions this season from recent lower-round draft picks like Murphy (13th round) & Parnell (9th) and, to a lesser extent, Evans (5th) & Neise (7th).
They're also getting nice progress from at least 2 of the few early picks they've had in recent years in Brad Holt & Ike Davis.
It would always be nice if there were more of course, but in a business where misses are always going to out-number hits, the record during the time Bernazard has been here doesn't exactly qualify as "failure".
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Nymr83
Jul 24 2009 10:55 AM
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they also took 4 guys from the system to get Santana, so those guys had to be highly regarded enough to do that.
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jul 24 2009 11:39 AM
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="Frayed Knot":2mcveioa]="Valadius":2mcveioa]I'd have him fired simply for his failure to do his job - develop ballplayers.[/quote:2mcveioa]
The Mets are getting contributions this season from recent lower-round draft picks like Murphy (13th round) & Parnell (9th) and, to a lesser extent, Evans (5th) & Neise (7th).
They're also getting nice progress from at least 2 of the few early picks they've had in recent years in Brad Holt & Ike Davis.
It would always be nice if there were more of course, but in a business where misses are always going to out-number hits, the record during the time Bernazard has been here doesn't exactly qualify as "failure".[/quote:2mcveioa]
Abject, I-pooped-in-my-hand-type failure? No.
Comparative failure? Possibly.
After all, what team in the league is getting NO contributions from recent (2004-06) draftees? Plus, those guys have played, but how well? However you might feel about Evans and Murphy, numbers-wise, they've performed at sub-replacement level on the field for their positions so far. Parnell's got a nice fastball, but with his iffy command/lack of any real secondary pitch, he may-- just may-- have already seen his peak. Simply ennumerating successes (and qualified ones, at that) is a bit like saying, "Well, our hitting coach isn't failing; after all, we got two hits just last night."
(Without doing an in-depth examination, it seems that we've gotten less substantive input from internal products than a good number of the teams in our income bracket-- Sox, Yanks, Angels, etc.)
Additionally, there's the issue of (over?)aggressive promotions...
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Edgy DC
Jul 24 2009 11:51 AM
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Well, it's possible to complain that the last three years haven't been productive and at the same time complain that the team has been over-aggressively promoting players, but they're a tough pair to keep in the air at the same time.
As far as 2004, it's a non-issue, as he came on board in December of 2004. Even then, he was a special assistant to the general manager, and not yet VP of development.
If we're going to do a comparitive study, let's do it scientifically and compare all teams, rather than just those we envy; include international signees, rather than just draftees; and include those contributing at the big-league level for other teams.
But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis.
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Nymr83
Jul 24 2009 12:04 PM
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="Edgy DC":rxv5qb1y]But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis.[/quote:rxv5qb1y]
I don't know if he's done his job or not. I think he needs to be fired for challenging minor leaguers to a fight in the clubhouse (the other incidents aren't as serious but show that it wasn't a one time lapse in judgment, like a car thief with a history of shoplifting)
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Frayed Knot
Jul 24 2009 12:06 PM
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| ]what team in the league is getting NO contributions from recent (2004-06) draftees? |
Pelfrey = 2005
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Edgy DC
Jul 24 2009 12:38 PM
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I think I'm just caught in this cycle.
<blockquote>- Fire him because of the incident.
- Can we establish that?
- Fire him becasue of failure.
- Can we establish that?
- Fire him because of the incident.</blockquote>Just plug in "Can we establish that first?" for my next ten posts, unless someone establishes that.
Meantime: Products from the 2005 draft --- Pelfrey (1), Jonathan Niese (7), Bobby Parnell (9).
Products from the 2006 draft --- Joseph Smith (2), Daniel Murphy (16).
Products from the 2007 draft --- Eddie Kunz (1).
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Farmer Ted
Jul 24 2009 12:51 PM
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Does Tony have input on the draft or just the development of the player after the draft?
It is typically the responsibility of the minor league and roving coaching staffs to develop that talent thus simply making Tony (VP of Player Development) a mechanism of reporting back to the NY office.
I could do that fucking job and I've never exposed my man boobs in a fit of rage.
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jul 24 2009 03:12 PM
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| ="Edgy DC"]Well, it's possible to complain that the last three years haven't been productive and at the same time complain that the team has been over-aggressively promoting players, but they're a tough pair to keep in the air at the same time.
As far as 2004, it's a non-issue, as he came on board in December of 2004. Even then, he was a special assistant to the general manager, and not yet VP of development.
If we're going to do a comparitive study, let's do it scientifically and compare all teams, rather than just those we envy; include international signees, rather than just draftees; and include those contributing at the big-league level for other teams.
But to declare that he hasn't done his job and needs to be fired for such in this atmostphere --- amid embarassing but disputed reports, and in the midst of a injury-plagued swoon by the big team --- seems more like a setup than analysis. |
Pelfrey's was a Boras client that dropped a bit because of expected contract demands; it's also the one year during the Omar era where the team (A) had a first round pick and (B) aimed at the highest-ceiling guy on the board, regardless of projected signing cost.
The others? They've all seen major-league time, granted. They've also produced either produced little or exeeded meager expectations at that level (Kunz hasn't even met those expectations). Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues-- of needing any warm body you can when your lineup includes as many Alous and Castillos, and your bench as many Easleys and Andersons, as the Mets have over the last two years-- rather than their forcing the issue with performance.
More telling, as Ted points out, his job-- presumably-- is player development, not drafting. How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success? Pelfrey, sort of... but he's a high-resource-commitment first-rounder; it would be more of a story if he hadn't done anything. Bannister was already out of the oven, more or less, before Bernazard took his current position. Unless I'm forgetting someone... there isn't much else. (There are a few Heath Bells, Henry Owens, and Jason Vargases, though, currently thriving in other organizations these days.)
Anyway... I'm not really arguing that he's failed-- I'm more arguing that he hasn't out-and-out succeeded. If half of the stories about his work style are true, then he would have to be exceedingly good, results-wise, to justify keeping around. (I mean, there's no established track record of success for the guy at prior gigs... because he doesn't have a player eval/development/analysis track record.)
(NOTE: the reason I pulled out the Yanks, Sox and Angels is both because those guys approximate what we bring to the table, International-signing-money-wise, and because I figured including small-marketeers who concentrated primarily on stockpiling prospects-- Royals, Rays, Marlins, etc.-- might make the Met system look unfairly shitty. I do agree that, if you're evaluating his merits, you'd have to do a more comprehensive study of MLB team's development systems to have a control.)
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G-Fafif
Jul 24 2009 04:33 PM
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So...is there gonna be an investigation or what?
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Edgy DC
Jul 24 2009 05:10 PM
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="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":25chb1ol]Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues--[/quote:25chb1ol]
Until we have a framework of years and a comparison to other teams, I'm not sure what it indicates.
="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":25chb1ol]How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success?[/quote:25chb1ol]
Why are we going back to 2002? Are we still talking about Bernazard?
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Edgy DC
Jul 24 2009 05:23 PM
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The Baseball Cube has a crude system of scoring draft success. They rank the team's Bernazard era drafts thusly:
2005: Fifth
2006: 17th
2007: 16th
2008: Not yet available.
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G-Fafif
Jul 24 2009 05:54 PM
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I don't think we had this, [url=http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/24/2009-07-24_mets_scout_verifies_details_of_tony_bernazard_lockerroom_tirade.html]from Adam Rubin last night[/url]:
| ]The scout dragged into the headlines when Mets VP for player development Tony Bernazard unleashed a verbal assault on another team official essentially confirmed the Daily News' exclusive report of the incident.
Diamondbacks scout Carlos Gomez said Thursday that he didn't want to "pile onto Tony," but that he could not dispute The News' account.
Gomez said his lone interest in speaking about the incident is to make it clear that he had no involvement in the confrontation.
"Tony did not get into it with me at all," Gomez said. "He didn't address me. He didn't curse me out. We didn't have a spat. In no way did I feel Tony singled me out or treated me incorrectly." |
So he wasn't yelling at the scout, only the deputy, according to this.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled shirt opera.
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Valadius
Jul 24 2009 06:45 PM
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Then he's an abusive boss as well.
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Edgy DC
Jul 24 2009 08:24 PM
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As well as what? That's what the actual issue is.
The rush to judgment here is getting absurd. Doesn't anybody wonder if Bernazard goes down as a scapegoat that it might actually perpertuate the orgazational issues and tenures you actually want to see confronted?
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Frayed Knot
Jul 24 2009 08:31 PM
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Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs.
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jul 24 2009 09:21 PM
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="Edgy DC"]| ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]Regardless of what you think their ultimate potential is, that's a big honking indicator of their promotion being a function of the team's depth issues-- |
Until we have a framework of years and a comparison to other teams, I'm not sure what it indicates. |
Pelfrey was the big project, and has sort of worked out. Smith and Parnell showed a little something in ST and limited trials-- enough to contribute on the squad.
But you're telling me that Murphy and Evans and Kunz were promoted-- directly from AA-- because they were dominating their league at the time? That's revisionism.
="Edgy DC"]| ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]How many of the Classes of 2002-onward-- no brainers like Reyes and Wright aside-- have been brought up to the majors and met with success? |
Why are we going back to 2002? Are we still talking about Bernazard? |
If he's running player development, he's not just responsible for the progress of the guys drafted while he had the job.
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Edgy DC
Jul 24 2009 09:37 PM
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| ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]But you're telling me that Murphy and Evans and Kunz were promoted-- directly from AA-- because they were dominating their league at the time? That's revisionism. |
What in the world makes you think I'm telling you that? I'm not really telling telling you anything. I'm asking for a framework of what we're talking about.
Only way these guys came up is you claimed nobody has contributed from those drafts, and I reported on anybody from those drafts who has had a big league salad.
It's hard enough to figure out whether a failed prospect is a failure on the scouting side or on the development side. (Or, similarly, to whose credit a success should go.) But it sure seems here folks are trying to just come up with enough information to meet a foregone conclusion.
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SteveJRogers
Jul 24 2009 10:12 PM
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="Frayed Knot":121a00be]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs.[/quote:121a00be]
When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it.
And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW
Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become.
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Edgy DC
Jul 24 2009 10:39 PM
Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 25 2009 06:34 AM
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Yeah, I don't recall a witch hunt to purify the organization of Tim Teufel, Ron Darling, Rick Aguilera and Bob Ojeda when they got in a fight with a handful of police. This, of course, wasn't the first time that year a Met had manhandled a cop, as Dwight Gooden pleaded no contest to having assaulted not one, but two cops.
And from my perspective, it's Met fans doing the piling on, not "non-Met fans."
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jul 24 2009 10:47 PM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 24 2009 10:51 PM
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| ="Edgy DC"]
Only way these guys came up is you claimed nobody has contributed from those drafts, and I reported on anybody from those drafts who has had a big league salad.
It's hard enough to figure out whether a failed prospect is a failure on the scouting side or on the development side. (Or, similarly, to whose credit a success should go.) But it sure seems here folks are trying to just come up with enough information to meet a foregone conclusion. |
I think I was a bit unclear in that first post, and my meaning was missed. I wasn't stating that the Mets received no contribution from their recent draftees; rather, I was arguing that having a handful of players make the majors isn't indicative of a minor-league system's fertility... and that the performance of these guys, if anything, may point to the opposite. (May.)
But, yeah, there's a whole bunch of rush-to-judgement here. What I'm advocating is a rush to scrutiny-- an actual investigation by the team-- and by fans-- of the system over the last 3 years.
| ="SteveJRogers"]And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW |
With all due respect, I disagree entirely. The amount and intensity of the pile-on is almost entirely a function of how little there is to talk about in terms of on-field positives; most of the stories-- and fan-talk, really-- seem to make the point, implicitly and explicitly, that the off-field disorder mirrors the on-field decrepitude.
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Edgy DC
Jul 24 2009 10:49 PM
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I love scrutiny. I think I'm gonna name my kid Scrutiny.
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jul 24 2009 10:52 PM
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| ="Edgy DC"]I love scrutiny. I think I'm gonna name my kid Scrutiny. |
Girl? It's a little bit girly, is why I ask.
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Frayed Knot
Jul 25 2009 05:53 AM
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="SteveJRogers"]| ="Frayed Knot"]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. |
When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it.
And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW
Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. |
And when did this organization become "a disgrace"? --- Oh about the time they stopped winning games I'm gonna guess.
Don t kid yourself that this has nothing to do with the W/L record.
It shirley would be a story in any case, but it turns into an 8-page thread with demands for his immediate firing (if not deportation and/or execution) when it comes during a time when fans are looking for scapegoats to blame and otherwise anonymous asst GMs (like un-named doctors) make convenient targets.
That Bernazard made himself an easy mark from the "street Spanish" days (and I don't think the fact that he's Spanish is a non-factor either) and seems to, at best, have an abrasive rep via the press contributes. But we're already in to a guilty before the facts mode where we know he's guilty of saying what he said to the players ... and even if he didn't what's he doing there anyway since he has nothing to do with player development? ... and even if he does the player development sucks ... and even where it doesn't suck he had nothing to do with the ones who did make it and everything to do with the ones who didn't.
Winning teams have stories like players drinking in the clubhouse and making plane reservations out of town while a playoff game is going on turn into cute stories if they win. Had that team NOT won those stories take on a whole different shading.
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SteveJRogers
Jul 25 2009 04:44 PM
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="Frayed Knot"]="SteveJRogers"]| ="Frayed Knot"]Met fans suddenly care a whole fuckin lot about the off-field actions of asst GMs. |
When it becomes public record, yeah, you'd bet they care a whole fuckin' lot about it.
And yes, I do believe the reaction would be the same if the Mets were playing like the 1986 team, or even the 2006 team, FWIW
Its causing the organization some embarrassment, right now it is just another reason for non Met fans to pile on about the disgrace that this organization has become. |
And when did this organization become "a disgrace"? --- Oh about the time they stopped winning games I'm gonna guess.
Don t kid yourself that this has nothing to do with the W/L record.
It shirley would be a story in any case, but it turns into an 8-page thread with demands for his immediate firing (if not deportation and/or execution) when it comes during a time when fans are looking for scapegoats to blame and otherwise anonymous asst GMs (like un-named doctors) make convenient targets.
That Bernazard made himself an easy mark from the "street Spanish" days (and I don't think the fact that he's Spanish is a non-factor either) and seems to, at best, have an abrasive rep via the press contributes. But we're already in to a guilty before the facts mode where we know he's guilty of saying what he said to the players ... and even if he didn't what's he doing there anyway since he has nothing to do with player development? ... and even if he does the player development sucks ... and even where it doesn't suck he had nothing to do with the ones who did make it and everything to do with the ones who didn't.
Winning teams have stories like players drinking in the clubhouse and making plane reservations out of town while a playoff game is going on turn into cute stories if they win. Had that team NOT won those stories take on a whole different shading. |
Fair enough, but then again perhaps you don't deal with constant barrages of "What a fucking disgrace of an organization you root for" type of comments by either MFY fan or non baseball fan co-workers.
And you also have to give the fact that in 1986 ESPN was yet to explode in terms of daily barrages of information to the mass audiences, WFAN was a year away from being born and Al Gore hadn't invented the internet yet.
In other words, it is hard to really say "well, would this have happened when the Mets were winning? I think not." Because certain avenues for fan venting and mass information consumption either hadn't open yet, or were some time from being prevalent.
And things were being said back in 99-00 about how the Mets handled certain situations and the actions of one Bobby Valentine. Sure Met fans were probably going "LALALALALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU, how far back are we from the Braves today?" But the non fans were making comments about Valentine's nutty behavior, the Mets refusal to retaliate, especially against the Yankees, and other issues of note.
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SteveJRogers
Jul 25 2009 05:24 PM
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BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.
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dgwphotography
Jul 25 2009 05:57 PM
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="SteveJRogers":z2ocfwgg]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:z2ocfwgg]
That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...
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SteveJRogers
Jul 25 2009 06:03 PM
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="dgwphotography":2ddliwek]="SteveJRogers":2ddliwek]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:2ddliwek]
That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:2ddliwek]
They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0.
Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.
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Kong76
Jul 25 2009 06:08 PM
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dgw: This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born <<<
Plus, they probably pick on him (like some of us) because he's a closet
Yankee fan in Mets' clothing.
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Nymr83
Jul 25 2009 06:30 PM
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| ]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. |
you'd have to start the year 81-0 and lose to a team that started 0-81 in a one game playoff for the division in order to equal that yankee playoff collapse during the regular season.
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SteveJRogers
Jul 25 2009 06:58 PM
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="Nymr83"]| ]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0. |
you'd have to start the year 81-0 and lose to a team that started 0-81 in a one game playoff for the division in order to equal that yankee playoff collapse during the regular season. |
Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. The Yankees still got to the postseason, and even won a series, the Mets choked away a chance to be in, not just the postseason, but a one game playoff as well (so in a sense it was even worse than the 1978 Red Sox, 1951 Dodgers or any other team that got caught and a playoff game/series was necessitated.
So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse, but that is part of the point, what has been going on with this franchise has been just another opportunity after another for the organization to be considered an absolute utter disgrace.
Hell, the Yankees did make it back to the postseason the following year, and three more years after that, and probably will make it again this year. That's more to the point where the Mets are seen as a joke in the eyes of many.
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Nymr83
Jul 25 2009 07:30 PM
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| ]The Yankees still got to the postseason, and even won a series, the Mets choked away a chance to be in, not just the postseason, but a one game playoff as well (so in a sense it was even worse than the 1978 Red Sox, 1951 Dodgers or any other team that got caught and a playoff game/series was necessitated.
So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse, |
i don't agree. the Yanks had a better year (because they made a postseaon and won the frst round), but their collapse was still worse being that it took place in the postseason
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Kong76
Jul 25 2009 07:42 PM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 25 2009 07:48 PM
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*post removed, for duh-ness*
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SteveJRogers
Jul 25 2009 07:47 PM
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No, its worse because it continues to perpetuate the notion that the Mets are losers and a pathetic organization.
Especially in light of what happened last year, and this current campaign.
Again, the Yankees were back in the postseason in 2005-2007 and most likely will be in it again this season.
Historically the Yankees losing the 2004 ALCS is a bump in the road, the 7 up with 17 to play 2007 Mets is yet another reason to say how the Met organization is a disgrace to professional sports.
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Frayed Knot
Jul 25 2009 07:53 PM
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| ][Fair enough, but then again perhaps you don't deal with constant barrages of "What a fucking disgrace of an organization you root for" type of comments by either MFY fan or non baseball fan co-workers. |
It wouldn't matter because I don't wrap my self-esteem up in the current status of a baseball team to the point where I react to taunting from those who do by demanding that some assistant be fired even though he may or may not be part of the problem.
Besides, it wasn't a Yanqui fan that brought up the "disgrace" line it was y ... oh wait, nevermind.
[walked into that one]
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Fman99
Jul 25 2009 08:23 PM
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="SteveJRogers":1scxpm4q]="dgwphotography":1scxpm4q]="SteveJRogers":1scxpm4q]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:1scxpm4q]
That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:1scxpm4q]
They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0.
Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:1scxpm4q]
I think you're problem is that you give a flying fuck what a Yankee fan thinks. Like they're people.
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Nymr83
Jul 25 2009 08:49 PM
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| ] by demanding that some assistant be fired even though he may or may not be part of the problem |
i want him fired for trying to fight ballplayers, nothing else. is he "part of the [alleged] problem" in talent development? i don't know or care as long he's challenging our players to fights.
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SteveJRogers
Jul 25 2009 08:57 PM
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="Fman99":fvuk1kki]="SteveJRogers":fvuk1kki]="dgwphotography":fvuk1kki]="SteveJRogers":fvuk1kki]BTW, case in point of water cooler conversation, the fact that my co-workers think that this was worse than George Steinbrenner having a fight in an elevator with the marshmellow salesmen during the 1981 World Series.[/quote:fvuk1kki]
That and $2.25 will get you a ride on the subway. This is probably ancient history to your co-workers, and depending on their age, it might have happened before some of them were born...[/quote:fvuk1kki]
They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0.
Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:fvuk1kki]
I think you're problem is that you give a flying fuck what a Yankee fan thinks. Like they're people.[/quote:fvuk1kki]
Then we shouldn't comment on how certain things are counter to the Yankees carefully crafted "image" of being the classiest organization in the game or whatever the fuck they are hyping themselves as.
Because clearly if Met fans shouldn't give a flying fuck about how the Mets are perceived by others, then why should we give a flying fuck about how the "Yankee Way" is a crock of shit?
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Nymr83
Jul 25 2009 09:43 PM
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Don't tell us what its ok to comment on.
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SteveJRogers
Jul 25 2009 09:59 PM
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="Nymr83":20535dbm]Don't tell us what its ok to comment on.[/quote:20535dbm]
It relates to how the Mets are perceived as an organization by others. But if you are fine rooting for an franchise that is subject to slings and arrows on a seemingly endless basis and counter all those comments with "who gives a fucking rat's ass what the fuck you fuckers think" it really is tough to go the other way on subjects that have to do with other organizations.
In other words, why should THEY, or anyone give a fucking rat's ass what the fuck any fucker says?
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SteveJRogers
Jul 25 2009 10:05 PM
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Look, this was a black eye for the organization that has way too much of them in recent years, that is the point I'm trying to make.
Yes more is made because the team has been playing horribly, but the point I'm trying to make is that shit like this shouldn't be passed over by Met fans as "if we were winning, no one in the media, internet, sports radio, etc. would give a shit."
Its because it is a black eye for the organization, and fodder for more shit from everyone from bloggers to late night comedians that make it a big deal and one that should be addressed and not swept away. Again, even if the Mets were leading the division by 20 games at this point.
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Frayed Knot
Jul 26 2009 08:50 AM
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| ]Then we shouldn't comment on how certain things are counter to the Yankees carefully crafted "image" of being the classiest organization in the game or whatever the fuck they are hyping themselves as. |
No, we can comment on it all we want. The mistake, from the Yanqui viewpoint, would be for them to change how they do things solely based on our reaction.
For the same reason, the Mets should decide what to do with Bernazard based on his performance and conduct rather than out of some silly notion that it's going to make MFY fans stop saying 'bad things 'bout the Mets'. And those Met fans who want to make Bernazard the fall-guy whether he deserves it or not are simply playing into the trap of doing things for pr reasons rather than solving the problem itself.
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Edgy DC
Jul 27 2009 06:56 AM
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="SteveJRogers":2ae45851]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0.
Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:2ae45851]
="SteveJRogers":2ae45851]Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. ...So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse... .[/quote:2ae45851]
Pick a side, my son.
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SteveJRogers
Jul 27 2009 11:49 AM
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="Edgy DC":2etn8uzp]="SteveJRogers":2etn8uzp]They also (even the non-Yankee or non-baseball fans) think that the Mets collapse in 2007 was worse than the Yankees losing a playoff series after being up 3-0.
Just to show where they are coming from, it doesn't have anything to do with remembering facts of a long ago incident.[/quote:2etn8uzp]
="SteveJRogers":2etn8uzp]Their point though is valid, it was still a POSTSEASON series. ...So yeah I actually do agree that the Met collapse was worse... .[/quote:2etn8uzp]
Pick a side, my son.[/quote:2etn8uzp]
The hell is your point Edge? You have to be a Yanqui fan to consider the Met collapse in 2007 worse than the Yankees blowing the 2004 ALCS?
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Edgy DC
Jul 27 2009 11:58 AM
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The hell is my point? Excuse me?
My point is obvious. You seem to consider their perspective self-evidently flawed in one post, and agreeable later.
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SteveJRogers
Jul 27 2009 12:11 PM
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="Edgy DC":2xyqenpp]The hell is my point? Excuse me?
My point is obvious. You seem to consider their perspective self-evidently flawed in one post, and agreeable later.[/quote:2xyqenpp]
Not really, I showed it as a recent example compared to dgw suggesting that they were not students of history (by saying Tony B's minors incident was worse than Steinbrenner's elevator fight)
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Edgy DC
Jul 27 2009 12:53 PM
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My head hurts.
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metsguyinmichigan
Jul 27 2009 12:56 PM
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Mets shame:
-- Idiot front office type takes off shirt to yell at 20-something minor leaguers.
-- Bad patch on sleeve
-- Occasional lapses in fielding.
Yankee shame:
-- Best player outed for using steroids
-- Best pitcher outed for using steroids
-- Best reliever has pool that kills people
-- Michael Kay
Tell me again which organization is a disgrace?
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Valadius
Jul 27 2009 03:42 PM
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Don't forget the incomparably annoying John Sterling.
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PiggiesTomatoes
Jul 27 2009 08:15 PM
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="Valadius":1xy2oval]Don't forget the incomparably annoying John Sterling.[/quote:1xy2oval]
...and Georgie girl. I wouldn't take money to listen or her and Sterling.
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MFS62
Jul 27 2009 10:00 PM
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="metsguyinmichigan":39c9vxup] Yankee shame:
-- Best player outed for using steroids
-- Best pitcher outed for using steroids
-- Best reliever has pool that kills people
-- Michael Kay
Tell me again which organization is a disgrace?[/quote:39c9vxup]
You forgot :
-- Being the next to last Major League team to have a Black player, even though they played in the city that had the first one.
Later
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jul 27 2009 10:05 PM
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="MFS62"]| ="metsguyinmichigan"] Yankee shame:
-- Best player outed for using steroids
-- Best pitcher outed for using steroids
-- Best reliever has pool that kills people
-- Michael Kay
Tell me again which organization is a disgrace? |
You forgot :
-- Being the next to last Major League team to have a Black player, even though they played in the city that had the first one.
Later |
Ahem.
(I think that was Boston, with Pumpsie Green.)
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G-Fafif
Jul 27 2009 10:09 PM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 27 2009 10:10 PM
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Double post.
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G-Fafif
Jul 27 2009 10:09 PM
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| ](I think that was Boston, with Pumpsie Green.) |
He said "next to last," but Phillies and Tigers came after MFYs, then Red Sox.
Old news, I'd have to say. Plenty to bash MFYs on in this century.
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jul 27 2009 11:08 PM
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Beer: not terribly helpful for reading comprehension.
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Ashie62
Jul 28 2009 08:11 AM
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="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":3npdogpk]Beer: not terribly helpful for reading comprehension.[/quote:3npdogpk]
Or Bernazards emotions
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Rockin' Doc
Aug 02 2009 03:11 PM
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Hard to feel much sympathy for Bernazard the more stories you read of his vitriolic behavior toward players and staff of the Mets system. The more I read of his tirades, the more negatively Bernazard's tenure reflects upon Minaya and the Wilpons for allowing such an embarrassment to remain in their employ for as long as they did.
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Benjamin Grimm
Aug 04 2009 07:04 AM
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Huh!
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Edgy DC
Aug 04 2009 07:08 AM
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Oh, you missed some shee-it.
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Ashie62
Aug 04 2009 12:58 PM
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A little league first fight in Princeton, NJ? Darling the Eli must love that one
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