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Athlete autobiographies ...

Frayed Knot Jul 29 2009 07:36 AM

... and the reason [url=http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/a-story-of-mickey-and-jackie/]I rarely read them[/url] Writer John Walsh at 'Hardball Times' explains: ... there are a few good baseball-related stories in the book ['The Mick' -- pub 1985']. The best came as Mantle describes his role in the 1952 World Series victory over the Brooklyn Dodgers: MM: My personal highlights were: homering off Joe Black in the deciding game and Robinson hitting a line drive to me in right center, three skips into my glove. He rounded first base, acting like he would stop. I used to pick guys off first on the play pretty often. This time Casey had told me that Robinson would be watching for my throw. So after I caught the ball on the bounce, I faked a throw behind him. And sure enough, Robinson took off for second. I threw to Billy and we had him out by ten or fifteen feet. I'll never forget the sight: Jackie getting up, dusting himself off, and giving me a little tip of the hat, his eyes saying, "I'll get you next time." After the Series he came into our clubhouse and shook my hand. "You're a helluva ballplayer," he said. I thought, "Man, what a class guy. I never could have done that, not in a million years." I'm a really bad loser. Walsh: That is a great story. It's shows (once again) Jackie Robinson's competitive spirit as well as his graciousness. We learn something about Mantle, too, his admitted lack of sportsmanship in defeat. We get a glimpse of the baseball smarts of Casey Stengel, who instructed Mantle on how to take advantage of Robinson's aggressiveness on the base paths. I just love this anecdote. Except for one thing: It's completely false. The writer then goes on to talk about how in searching for details of the play he found ... nothing. Mantle never picked Robinson off base in that WS or any other despite the details of the supposed memory. And even as to the threat of throwing behind a runner so as to pick him off 1st which Mick claims to have done "pretty often"; SURVEY SAYS .... Not Once in his whole career did Mickey actually do that!! Fuzzy memories are one thing. Wholly invented legends are another.

Edgy DC Jul 29 2009 07:41 AM

I'm sure he did it, you know, at camp. Seriously, I've seen a rightfielder do that succesffully maybe two or three times, and a centerfielder never.

Frayed Knot Jul 29 2009 07:44 AM

I did it once in a softball game from [u:gljle618]Left[/u:gljle618]field. And another time my throw just flat beat the guy to the bag for the force. Or maybe those were in the World Series, the details are a bit hazy.

bmfc1 Jul 29 2009 09:13 AM

Thanks for posting this column, FK. Good stuff.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 29 2009 09:39 AM

How would you score that, anyway? 1B and PO? GO/9? Deadspin carped on Joe Morgan about some of his on-air stretches a month or two back. http://deadspin.com/5290951/it-wasnt-so-joe http://deadspin.com/5299503/joe-morgan- ... ls-another ]From Sunday's game, here he is, verbatim: I guess I can tell this story now, one of my great experiences when I was a young player. Don Wilson was pitching a no-hitter against the Atlanta Braves. They had Orlando Cepeda, Rico Carty, Felipe Alou and Hank Aaron, of course. And they got to the ninth inning, he got two outs, no one on base, and Hank Aaron was the hitter. And in my infinite wisdom, I ran in to the mound. I said, "You know, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if Hank Aaron walked right here. He said, "Get back to second base." I proceeded to go back to second base. He threw three fastballs right by Hank Aaron. No-hitter. Charming, right? And, alas, very likely an utter crock. This would've been June 18, 1967, Joe's third full season in the bigs. That Braves team did indeed feature Hank Aaron, Felipe Alou and Rico Carty — though not Cepeda, who was in St. Louis that year. And Wilson did indeed throw a no-hitter, striking out Aaron to end the game. None of that's the problem. The problem, as a tipster points out, is that Joe Morgan wasn't playing that day. I'm thinking old-timers who go on-air/writers who work with them need to familiarize themselves with Baseball Reference and/or Retrosheet-- apart from saving them from potential embarrassment, it's kind of a cool memory aid... I'd imagine it would bring back a flood of vivid recall, seeing some of these box scores (even as they might bust some ego-preserving myths).

Frayed Knot Jul 29 2009 11:23 AM

"How would you score that, anyway? 1B and PO? GO/9?" One would be a single and a 7-3 putout, the other a straight 7-3 putout.

RealityChuck Jul 29 2009 02:21 PM

="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]How would you score that, anyway? 1B and PO? GO/9? Deadspin carped on Joe Morgan about some of his on-air stretches a month or two back. http://deadspin.com/5290951/it-wasnt-so-joe http://deadspin.com/5299503/joe-morgan- ... ls-another ]From Sunday's game, here he is, verbatim: I guess I can tell this story now, one of my great experiences when I was a young player. Don Wilson was pitching a no-hitter against the Atlanta Braves. They had Orlando Cepeda, Rico Carty, Felipe Alou and Hank Aaron, of course. And they got to the ninth inning, he got two outs, no one on base, and Hank Aaron was the hitter. And in my infinite wisdom, I ran in to the mound. I said, "You know, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if Hank Aaron walked right here. He said, "Get back to second base." I proceeded to go back to second base. He threw three fastballs right by Hank Aaron. No-hitter. Charming, right? And, alas, very likely an utter crock. This would've been June 18, 1967, Joe's third full season in the bigs. That Braves team did indeed feature Hank Aaron, Felipe Alou and Rico Carty — though not Cepeda, who was in St. Louis that year. And Wilson did indeed throw a no-hitter, striking out Aaron to end the game. None of that's the problem. The problem, as a tipster points out, is that Joe Morgan wasn't playing that day. I'm thinking old-timers who go on-air/writers who work with them need to familiarize themselves with Baseball Reference and/or Retrosheet-- apart from saving them from potential embarrassment, it's kind of a cool memory aid... I'd imagine it would bring back a flood of vivid recall, seeing some of these box scores (even as they might bust some ego-preserving myths). What the hell difference does it make?

metsguyinmichigan Jul 29 2009 02:36 PM

Mantle's story in the book about going hunting with Billy Martin was pretty funny. In a nutshell -- and I might be off on some of the details -- the boys go hunting on property owned by one of Mantle's buddies. Mick runs in the house to let the guy know they're there, and inside the guy says something like he has a horse that's really sick and needs to be put down can't bear to do it. Since Mick's shooting anyway, can he do it for the guy? So Mick decides to play a joke on Martin, stomps out of the house, saying "The SOB now says we can't hunt here! I'm gonna go and shoot his horse! Then Mick hears two shots, and hears Martin say, "I got two of of his cows!!!"

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 29 2009 02:39 PM

="RealityChuck"] ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]How would you score that, anyway? 1B and PO? GO/9? Deadspin carped on Joe Morgan about some of his on-air stretches a month or two back. http://deadspin.com/5290951/it-wasnt-so-joe http://deadspin.com/5299503/joe-morgan- ... ls-another ]From Sunday's game, here he is, verbatim: I guess I can tell this story now, one of my great experiences when I was a young player. Don Wilson was pitching a no-hitter against the Atlanta Braves. They had Orlando Cepeda, Rico Carty, Felipe Alou and Hank Aaron, of course. And they got to the ninth inning, he got two outs, no one on base, and Hank Aaron was the hitter. And in my infinite wisdom, I ran in to the mound. I said, "You know, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if Hank Aaron walked right here. He said, "Get back to second base." I proceeded to go back to second base. He threw three fastballs right by Hank Aaron. No-hitter. Charming, right? And, alas, very likely an utter crock. This would've been June 18, 1967, Joe's third full season in the bigs. That Braves team did indeed feature Hank Aaron, Felipe Alou and Rico Carty — though not Cepeda, who was in St. Louis that year. And Wilson did indeed throw a no-hitter, striking out Aaron to end the game. None of that's the problem. The problem, as a tipster points out, is that Joe Morgan wasn't playing that day. I'm thinking old-timers who go on-air/writers who work with them need to familiarize themselves with Baseball Reference and/or Retrosheet-- apart from saving them from potential embarrassment, it's kind of a cool memory aid... I'd imagine it would bring back a flood of vivid recall, seeing some of these box scores (even as they might bust some ego-preserving myths). What the hell difference does it make? Ultimately, nothing. We come from dust, and we go back to dust. But that's not what you meant, is it? What did you mean?

RealityChuck Jul 29 2009 05:51 PM

Just what I said. What difference does it make if he was playing second base that day or not? Maybe he just thought about it when he was watching in the dugout and, like any good storyteller, "printed the legend." It's still a good story. So what difference does it make that it's not 100% accurate? Same for the Mickey Mantle story. What difference does it make if it's true or not? (Well, actually, it is true, it's just not accurate).

metsmarathon Jul 29 2009 08:22 PM

i kindof think there's a difference between amusing anecdote that provides insight into the relationships and behaviors of some of our favorite and revered athletes, and pure fiction that offers none of that. but that's just me.

RealityChuck Jul 30 2009 06:41 AM

But the anecdotes quoted did provide insight into the relationship and behavior: The Mantle one showed Robinson to be a fierce competitor, but also a decent guy. The Morgan one showed that the pitcher was not going to use the cheap way to get a no hitter. Morgan wasn't lying about it -- it was how he remembered the incident. He may have only considered the idea, but knew that the pitcher wouldn't do it. He may have shouted, "Hey, walk Aaron" and had the pitcher glare at him. But that doesn't matter. It's unrealistic to expect someone in the broadcast booth to look up things every time he remembers an incident from forty years earlier. You can certainly criticize Morgan for a lot of things as an announcer, but this phony "gotcha" is not one of them. It says nothing about the comment to criticize it, but instead shows the person making the comment to be something of a showoff trying to impress people about how smart he is.

Frayed Knot Jul 30 2009 06:54 AM

="RealityChuck":3ljes3ms]But the anecdotes quoted did provide insight into the relationship and behavior: The Mantle one showed Robinson to be a fierce competitor, but also a decent guy. The Morgan one showed that the pitcher was not going to use the cheap way to get a no hitter.[/quote:3ljes3ms] I'm totally baffled by your stance here. The Mantle & Morgan "insights" don't show anything because the incidents either didn't happen or their recollection of them bring up enough doubt to make us wonder if anything remotely like them ever did. In the Mantle case, for instance, the payoff of the story is the Jackie tip of the cap and the look in his eye added to his competitiveness mixed with post-game humbleness. But we're supposed to buy that all those actually occurred even though we now know that the incident which caused them all is totally made up? I'm not. Edgy DC Jul 30 2009 07:08 AM I tried four different responses, but I was baffled also. Robinson is a very important historical figure, and it serves nobody to fabricate incidents that didn't happen. And it serves nobody but Mantle to lay out a false scenario where Robinson was acknowledged to be a fine sportsman, but Mantle's defense trumped Jackie's baserunning. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 30 2009 07:21 AM What Edge and FK said. I mean, the Morgan thing I just brought up as another example of the modern information store biting an old player squarely in the ass... it's a little less nettlesome, because it was-- presumably-- somewhat extemporaneous. Also, exaggeration is one thing; outright invention-- in printed work, no less-- is another. metirish Jul 30 2009 07:25 AM Same as above for me , nice stories or whatever you what to call them but when I find out they are not true it's a bleh , not at all surprised bu any of it though.