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="metsmarathon":1jtw15gq]when they first dug the foundation for citi field, and found those pottery shards, arrowheads, and old indian bones, and still built the damned thing, the die was cast for this season.[/quote:1jtw15gq]
I alluded to that in the world of pain thread.
Later
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Centerfield
Aug 26 2009 12:10 PM
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bmfc touched upon it, but the 2009 Mets first mis-step was to not upgrade the lineup or the rotation.
The lineup came in with several question marks and several outright holes. Nothing was done to address these issues leaving us a lineup with no depth.
Same can be said about the rotation.
When a freakish run of injuries struck, it derailed a team that had no margin for error.
I think we would have contended had we stayed healthy, but I don't think we could be considered the favorite for our division, nor to make the World Series.
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Farmer Ted
Aug 26 2009 12:17 PM
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It all started to unravel when Castillo dropped the pop-up.
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metsmarathon
Aug 26 2009 12:28 PM
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="MFS62":3js5sg98]="metsmarathon":3js5sg98]when they first dug the foundation for citi field, and found those pottery shards, arrowheads, and old indian bones, and still built the damned thing, the die was cast for this season.[/quote:3js5sg98]
I alluded to that in the world of pain thread.
Later[/quote:3js5sg98]
[url=http://cranepoolforum.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=12315&start=0:3js5sg98]beat ya to it![/url:3js5sg98]
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Vic Sage
Aug 26 2009 12:30 PM
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="bmfc1":1b96iugs]Winter '08-'09: Despite the need for a power bat in the OF, the Mets choose to turn LF to largely unproven Daniel Murphy. In the minor leagues, Murphy played 3B and 1B. In October and November of '08, the Mets had Murphy play 2B in the Arizona Fall League. Yet when the Mets opened the season, Murphy was in LF. Meanwhile, Adam Dunn was a free agent until February but the Mets ignored him, choosing to go with Murphy.[/quote:1b96iugs]
They failed to sign Dunn, in part, because they probably saw him more as a 1Bman, and we'd already picked up the option on the old and injury-prone Delgado at that point. Murphy wasn't going to have to carry the offense... he'd be a nice young complimentary piece, but Delgado was counted on to be part of the offensive core of the team. That our season went down the toilet when a senior citizen broke his hip shouldn't have come as a shock. And when our GM did nothing to replace him, the team folded.
We should have signed Texiera.
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metsmarathon
Aug 26 2009 12:44 PM
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i think that not signing dunn (or teixeira), and signing ollie are the two biggest things omar had done wrong going into this season.
but i do lend credence to the notion that castillo dropping that pop up was where it all went wrong.
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Edgy DC
Aug 26 2009 12:46 PM
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This should be obvious, but Delgado has not demonstrated injury proneness nor has he broken his hip.
If they saw Dunn only as a firstbaseman, they missed a lot. If they thought Murphy was a better bet in the outfield, so did they miss more. But neither of those are about Delgado.
A better guess is Minaya had X amount of money to spend, and chose to spend it on a starter and a reliever.
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Benjamin Grimm
Aug 26 2009 12:53 PM
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Delgado might very well have hit 35 homers this year, and been as productive as he was for most of last year.
But even so, was it better to get one year of Delgado, or to get his successor in place? There's no Texiera on the market this year, but there was one last year. I was hoping the Mets would go for him, not so much for the sake of 2009, but for the sake of 2010, 2011, 2012, and 2013.
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Edgy DC
Aug 26 2009 01:05 PM
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I guess it's better to have five years of Texiera, but it's not my money. I was thinking Dunn was within the Mets' budget and was a good investment of their dollars. He might have filled left and then slid to first as F-Bomb came on and/or Delgado faded.
That's not really on the table now, and besides, based on what I've seen at the games I've been to, he's more of a liability at first than in left.
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metsguyinmichigan
Aug 26 2009 01:14 PM
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I don't think there was any chance that Teixiera was going to sign with the Mets, especially when the Red Sox and Yankees were bidding up each other.
Nor do I remember much of a call in these parts to focus on him. And all the people who were calling for Omar to sign Manny Ramirez need to apologize.
And I think that while the Perez signing turned out poorly, the other option was way over-paying Derek Lowe. Didn't the Braves give him something like $60 million?
The screaming after the season was about the bullpen, and he went out and signed the the best one out there and grabbed a second.
I think the turning point of the season was the Beltran injury. If I remember, they were were holding on after losing Delgado and Reyes, but when they lost Beltran, it all seemed to slip away.
The Castillo drop might have been the spiritual turning point, but I think the Beltran loss left Wright all alone in the lineup.
As I said in regard to the Vaccaro spew, no team has the kind of depth to withstand what the Mets lost this year. You can absorb the loss of one or two of those guys, maybe. But that's it.
And to have your replacements for those guys also go down -- and in some cases the replacements for the replacements -- you just can't prepare for that, nor can you expect them to.
What sucks hardest is that they weren't just your 15-day or month-long injuries. Does anyone really think we'll see Reyes or Delgado back this year? I'm not even sure why they'd trot Beltran back, unless they want to test what he can tolerate without surgery.
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metirish
Aug 26 2009 01:23 PM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Aug 26 2009 01:24 PM
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I think I would like to get a consensus as to what the membership thinks is the # 1 reason for this mess.
All the injuries is not what I am looking for
Was it Beltran's injury
Not signing Dunn
Reyes
Voodoo Indian shit
Maybe I should throw a poll up after this thread has ran a few days.
I will say that I remember several here were very vocal on Dunn , can't remember one person on Texeria.....all that means is that I have a rubbish memory.
I think it's imperative that the Mets learn from this season going into mext.
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seawolf17
Aug 26 2009 01:24 PM
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Ah, who the hell are we kidding? Dunn would have been run over by the bullpen car if he was on this team.
I want to agree with the Castillo pop-up, but that was more emblematic and symbolic than it was a turning point. The real turning point was the Citi Field Yankee sweep, followed by that awful road trip.
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Edgy DC
Aug 26 2009 01:28 PM
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Yabbut, the Castillo pop would have been a key in returning the sweep and expunging it. As it was, didn't they come out the next day and lose 78-0 or something?
The reality about Dunn is sadly that spending more money to get him this off season would have meant losing more money --- at least in 2009 --- as everybody else went down.
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metsmarathon
Aug 26 2009 01:37 PM
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yeah, but i think that by signing dunn, that would've caused a butterfly to have flapped its wings ever so slightly differently, which would've generated somewhat slightly different winds that day, which would have tehn lofted different dust particles into the air, whcih would have interacted with teh sunlight in a different way, which would have opened up a rift in the fabric of space-time and caused the shovel to miss that one cache of pre-columbian relics, which would have prevented the mets from ever knowing that they had built citifield atop an indian burial ground, which would have prevented the weird indian voodoo shit that's befallen our beloved team.
because as we all know, its only if you know you're building on an old indian burial ground that the indian ghosts fuck up your shit. they're not assholes, afterall.
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smg58
Aug 26 2009 01:46 PM
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Assuming the Mets didn't have any more money to spend, they would have had to have handled the offseason a lot differently to free up money for an extra position player, certainly somebody like Teixeira at a position they already had filled. Was Rodriguez so much of an improvement over the other much cheaper closers on the market? Should they have had as much confidence in JJ Putz's health that they had when they made that huge deal? I can understand balking on Derek Lowe (PS Minaya will be vindicated on that front), but didn't they know enough about Oliver Perez to not over-commit to him?
They also have shown too much confidence too quickly in their minor league players. Murphy lulled the Mets into a false sense of security with his play after the call-up last year, but even then he was an exception. If guys begin the year in AA or lower, assume at least two years before they're major-league ready unless you know they have nothing left to prove in the minors. (That means no to Davis or Thole being part of next year's team.) Getting back to Murphy... he played second in Arizona, got hurt the first week in Puerto Rico, and came to camp having forgotten everything he learned about playing the outfield.
Still, I think they would have contended without the injuries. The Mets were doing fine on Memorial Day. I don't regret missing out on anybody big in the offseason, except maybe Ibanez, and even he is coming back to earth. Manny would have been a massive PR disaster, and Dunn's glove takes away most of what his bat gives (and actually, he's even worse at first base than he's been in the outfield).
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Fman99
Aug 26 2009 01:50 PM
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This thread is more depressing than Angela's Ashes.
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metirish
Aug 26 2009 01:54 PM
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| ="Fman99"]This thread is more depressing than Angela's Ashes. |
Like Frank the Mets seem to have a dose of the consumption
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HahnSolo
Aug 26 2009 01:57 PM
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On July 2, the Mets scratched out an extra inning win in a makeup game in Pittsburgh. it put them either within 1 or 1 1/2 games of the Phillies. The day is seared in my memory because it's the day my wife got sick.
The next night, in CBP, Livan couldn't get anybody out, and the sweep was on. To me, the season ended on that Friday night.
And if you want to blame anything on the off-season, I reiterate what some others have said in other threads. Omar bandaged up the problems of last year (bad pen, hole in rotation) without really shoring up the offense or the team's depth.
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HahnSolo
Aug 26 2009 02:00 PM
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="smg58":3njsggd4] and Dunn's glove takes away most of what his bat gives [/quote:3njsggd4]
I know he's not Keith out there at first, but you don't really believe this, do you? I mean, his bat gives an awful lot.
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Gwreck
Aug 26 2009 02:26 PM
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The pop-up was on Friday June 12th.. They won convincingly on Saturday but then Sunday the 14th was the game where Johan imploded and they lost 15-0.
Then it was losing 2 of 3 to Baltimore and Tampa both. The final game against Tampa was Beltran's last.
So if the popup wasn't *exactly* when the season went over the cliff, it was right around that time.
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Vic Sage
Aug 26 2009 03:50 PM
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a few things:
- not that it matters much, but since it was brought up, if someone wants to go thread searching, you'll discover discussions about Delgado in which CF and I thought picking up Delgado's option would be a mistake because, at age 37, he was as likely to repeat his terrible first half from 2008 as he was to continue his excellent 2nd half, and players at that age are more likely to break down; we were, instead, banging the drum for Texiera. I don't recall who else jumped on that bandwagon with us, but there was discussion of it here. And whatever else's Omar's multitude of shortcomings, an inability to land a big fish, even when competing with Yanks and BoSox, is NOT one of them.
- saying Delgado was "a senior citizen that broke his hip" is a joke, not an attempt to describe the injury with scientific specificity.
- for a guy like Dunn, who is customarily in the top 10 in the NL every year in both runs created and OPS+, to cost his team more runs than he creates with bad defense at 1b, he'd have to be playing the position with NO ARMS AND, INSTEAD, ATTEMPTING TO CATCH THE BALL WITH HIS ASSCHEEKS... which would probably have ended his career at some point, or certainly have caused a massive hemorroidal problem that would've DLed him indefinitely.
- The notion that signing Dunn would've been a bad deal because it just would've made this year's lost season more expensive for Fred is logic that just makes my head reel. The fact that the Mets have suffered unpredented level of injuries and, therefore, would've been unlikely to contend this year anyway, should not absolve Omar from his decision-making in building this team.
Here are just some of the decisions off the top of my head:
* picking up Delgado's option (forgetting the lesson of Carlos Baerga)
* counting on Murphy to repeat (forgeting the lesson of Mike Vail)
* Re-signing Perez for big $ (forgetting the lesson of, well, Oliver Perez)
* Putz was coming off serious arm injury;
* Spending big money on not 1, not 2, but 3 closers, when closers are made, not born (and he'd already given away Heath Bell for nothing)(e.g., see Ryan Franklin);
* Maine had injuries when we acquired him from Baltimore and had managed 1 full season (2007) in his career, and was coming off a injury-shortened 2008, but was counted on as the #2 starter, along with a rotation of unstable Ollie P, inconsistent Pelfrey and no 5th starter to speak of;
* guaranteed contracts to Cora, Redding, Tatis, Marlon Anderson, Duaner Sanchez and Scott Schoenwiese ate up over $9m of 2009 team budget;
* poor budget management didn't allow him to make any in-season adjustments to compensate for injuries;
ok, i'm bored. i'll stop now.
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Aug 26 2009 03:56 PM
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="HahnSolo":3sik436d]="smg58":3sik436d] and Dunn's glove takes away most of what his bat gives [/quote:3sik436d]
I know he's not Keith out there at first, but you don't really believe this, do you? I mean, his bat gives an awful lot.[/quote:3sik436d]
As per Fangraphs, smg's LITERALLY correct:
Batting Runs Created, YTD: 38.8
Defensive Runs Saved, YTD: -28.2 (dead last among ML OFs this year)
He's still been worth about 2 wins over replacement, and is being paid about what he's been worth ($9.4M, YTD) at market rates.
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MFS62
Aug 26 2009 04:01 PM
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Vic, don't be wishy-washy. What do you really think about Omar's decision-making?
Later
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Nymr83
Aug 26 2009 05:28 PM
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="Edgy DC":rpl4i1i1]
If they saw Dunn only as a firstbaseman, they missed a lot. If they thought Murphy was a better bet in the outfield, so did they miss more. But neither of those are about Delgado.[/quote:rpl4i1i1]
Just add on here, Dunn was a perfect fit, he could play the outfield in 2009 and then be moved to 1B when Delgado's contract expired if you felt that was where he belonged, he would have given the Mets flexibility in their 2010 shopping as well!
as for "where did it go wrong" i'd point to 3 time periods:
1. offseason: Mets fail to get another bat
2. June: Mets are treading water not falling too far behind, but front office fails to reinforce the team before it can fade
3. July: Team falls apart from cumulative injuries
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MFS62
Aug 26 2009 05:41 PM
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If they make a movie of this season, it should be directed by Wes Craven.
Later
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Edgy DC
Aug 26 2009 09:32 PM
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="Vic Sage":3gzpo6te]- saying Delgado was "a senior citizen that broke his hip" is a joke, not an attempt to describe the injury with scientific specificity.[/quote:3gzpo6te]
You miss my more salient point here. Neither had he displayed any particular injury-proneness.
The appeal of Texiera is clear. He's younger and more likely to maintain his health and productivity, but let's not distort the case against a good soldier.
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Edgy DC
Aug 26 2009 09:37 PM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Aug 27 2009 07:14 AM
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="Nymr83":1izifb1m]="Edgy DC":1izifb1m]
If they saw Dunn only as a firstbaseman, they missed a lot. If they thought Murphy was a better bet in the outfield, so did they miss more. But neither of those are about Delgado.[/quote:1izifb1m]
Just add on here, Dunn was a perfect fit, he could play the outfield in 2009 and then be moved to 1B when Delgado's contract expired if you felt that was where he belonged, he would have given the Mets flexibility in their 2010 shopping as well![/quote:1izifb1m]
Yeah, yeah. That's what I said pretty much exactly on page one. It's probably what I said over the winter. I certainly thought it.
As for reinforcements, I can't imagine a trade --- acknowledging my prejudice ----that could have saved this ship, and I'd hate to think of the price that any half measure would have cost. Working and praying for the health of the disabled players seemed the best and last hope to me.
I really wish there was more people on board with this point, but a GM does not particularly show his merit in making dazzling mid-season trades to save a fading campaign. But sportwriters love 'em.
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metsmarathon
Aug 27 2009 06:52 AM
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i'd love to know what trade could've been made that would've saved the season, aside, perhaps, for trading our broken players for the healthy versions of themselves.
and then, of course, the persistent knock against omar that our farm system sucks would truly come to fruition.
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metirish
Aug 27 2009 06:56 AM
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="metsmarathon":198kkavf]i'd love to know what trade could've been made that would've saved the season, aside, perhaps, for trading our broken players for the healthy versions of themselves.
and then, of course, the persistent knock against omar that our farm system sucks would truly come to fruition.[/quote:198kkavf]
It's a good point , the influx of injured players coming back never happened either.
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Benjamin Grimm
Aug 27 2009 06:58 AM
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Yeah, there's no way that Omar could have traded himself out of this mess.
You might argue that he could have done something before the mess became so large, but even if he had, it wouldn't have helped any. It's probably better that he did nothing. It's certainly good that he didn't make any desperation trades. (I do wonder what kinds of deals he was working on.)
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MFS62
Aug 27 2009 08:54 AM
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| ="metsmarathon"]when they first dug the foundation for citi field, and found those pottery shards, arrowheads, and old indian bones, and still built the damned thing, the die was cast for this season. |
'Thon, I mentioned that to a friend who is married to a Native American woman. I asked if there was anything that could be done to reverse a spell.
This was his email reply:
| ]u're on your own on this one....i suggest a sacrifice at home plate...u have enough injured bodies that burning one more at the stake wouldn't make a big diff
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OK, so, who do we pick?
Later
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metsmarathon
Aug 27 2009 09:20 AM
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allyssa milano...
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Aug 27 2009 01:44 PM
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="MFS62"]| ="metsmarathon"]when they first dug the foundation for citi field, and found those pottery shards, arrowheads, and old indian bones, and still built the damned thing, the die was cast for this season. |
'Thon, I mentioned that to a friend who is married to a Native American woman. I asked if there was anything that could be done to reverse a spell.
This was his email reply:
| ]u're on your own on this one....i suggest a sacrifice at home plate...u have enough injured bodies that burning one more at the stake wouldn't make a big diff
|
OK, so, who do we pick?
Later |
Burn Martinez-- JUST MAKE SURE YOU GET THE RIGHT ONE!
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Nymr83
Aug 27 2009 02:12 PM
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Shit. I had a whole long post and it got deleted when I accidentally closed the browser.
heres the short version: the argument that the Mets were "beyond help" is in my opinion just 20/20 hindsight, there was a period of a month or more after the Delgado injury (which should have been a big "we need help sign") in which all other significant injured players besides Perez were expected back soon and in which the Mets were playing .500 ball and were only a couple of games out. On July 2nd after beating the Pirates in a makeup game the Mets were a game back from both philly and florida. The team wasn't beyond help for that month at least.
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