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Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

G-Fafif Nov 21 2009 01:10 PM

The Mets are getting with the program of diggin' on the Mets. If they announced this stuff a year ago, it would have been part and parcel of opening a new ballpark, one would have figured and it wouldn't seem newsworthy. Then again, the Mets issuing a press release on a Saturday in November...I guess they follow their own news muse. Mets expand club presence at Citi Field 11/21/2009 1:41 PM ET New York Mets Press Release FLUSHING, N.Y. -- The New York Mets today announced plans to expand the presence of club history at Citi Field next season in a variety of ways including renaming areas of the ballpark after Casey Stengel, Gil Hodges, Tom Seaver and William A. Shea. The Mets also have re-formed the Mets Hall of Fame Committee, and will increase the number of visuals commemorating great players and moments both inside and outside the ballpark. The Mets previously announced a 2010 opening of the Mets Hall of Fame & Museum at Citi Field. RENAMING OF AREAS IN BALLPARK The Mets will rename and visually theme Citi Field's VIP entrances and outfield bridge after individuals who made an indelible mark on the club. First Base VIP will be named after Hodges to honor the manager who led the Mets to their first World Championship in 1969. Third Base VIP will honor Seaver, the Hall of Fame pitcher and Mets leader in wins, earned run average and strikeouts. Left Field VIP will be named after Stengel, the first manager in Mets history. The outfield bridge will be dedicated as Shea Bridge, honoring the legacy of the man who was the driving force to bring National League baseball back to New York after the departure of the Dodgers and Giants. METS HALL OF FAME & MUSEUM & HALL OF FAME COMMITTEE The centerpiece for Mets memorabilia will be the Mets Hall of Fame & Museum, located adjacent to the Jackie Robinson Rotunda and accessible from both inside and outside the ballpark. A re-formed Mets Hall of Fame Committee will evaluate potential inductees, and is comprised of a combination of media members with a long-standing connection to the club and Mets front office staff. Media members on the committee are: Marty Noble, the Mets.com beat writer who is entering his fifth decade covering the team; Gary Cohen, the New York native and voice of the Mets on SNY who has been a Mets broadcaster for 21 years; and Howie Rose, a Queens native and radio voice of the Mets on WFAN who has covered the team for 21 years on radio and television. The Mets committee members are: Dave Howard, executive vice president, business operations who has been with the organization for 18 years; Jay Horwitz, vice president, media relations who just completed his 30th season with the team; Tina Mannix, senior director, marketing who has been with the Mets for nine years; and former Mets pitcher Al Jackson, a pitching consultant who is entering his sixth decade with the Mets. Chief operating officer Jeff Wilpon serves as ex-officio. "The re-formation of the Mets Hall of Fame Committee is central to our concerted efforts to better connect our present and future to our past," said Wilpon. "It reinforces the organization's and our fans' shared desire to recognize our greatest players. With our 2010 opening of the Mets Hall of Fame & Museum at Citi Field, now was the time to bring this group together." Candidates will be evaluated on their impact on the field while in a Mets uniform, how they represented and affected the organization and their place in Mets history. The Mets Hall of Fame was established in 1981 with an inaugural class of Joan Payson, the first Mets owner, and Casey Stengel, the first Mets manager. The Mets Hall of Fame has 21 members including former players, managers, front-office executives and broadcasters. Tommie Agee was the last person inducted in 2002. The following is the list of Hall of Fame members in order of the year they were inducted: Joan Payson (1981); Casey Stengel (1981); Gil Hodges (1982); George M. Weiss (1982); William A. Shea (1983); Johnny Murphy (1983); Ralph Kiner (1984); Bob Murphy (1984); Lindsey Nelson (1984); Bud Harrelson (1986); Rusty Staub (1986); Tom Seaver (1988); Jerry Koosman (1989); Ed Kranepool (1990); Cleon Jones (1991); Jerry Grote (1992); Tug McGraw (1993); Mookie Wilson (1996); Keith Hernandez (1997); Gary Carter (2001); and Tommie Agee (2002). The Mets will announce further details about the Mets Hall of Fame & Museum in the coming weeks. IMAGERY & TEAM COLORS Next season, fans will be greeted by Mets colors as they approach Citi Field with full-color banners of Mets players on Mets Plaza in front of the Jackie Robinson Rotunda. Mets logos will be added on entry points to the parking areas and on the light poles in the parking lots. The addition of team colors will continue inside the ballpark with staircases painted with blue and orange and more Mets logos throughout the ballpark. Flowers in the gardens at Mets Plaza in front of the Jackie Robinson Rotunda will also be blue and orange. "These additions amplify our commitment to better recognize our team's heritage and honor the players and memories our fans cherish," said Howard. "Ownership is acting upon our fans' desire to see more Mets around the ballpark. We hear our fans loud and clear and these additions continue the process that started last season."

themetfairy Nov 21 2009 01:13 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

It's about time! But better late than never. It sounds like the HOF will be located in what was the store on the Jackie Robinson Level. It seems like a reasonably good use of space.

Frayed Knot Nov 21 2009 01:16 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

Media members on the committee are: Marty Noble, the Mets.com beat writer who is entering his fifth decade covering the team; Gary Cohen, the New York native and voice of the Mets on SNY who has been a Mets broadcaster for 21 years; and Howie Rose, a Queens native and radio voice of the Mets on WFAN who has covered the team for 21 years on radio and television. The Mets committee members are: Dave Howard, executive vice president, business operations who has been with the organization for 18 years; Jay Horwitz, vice president, media relations who just completed his 30th season with the team; Tina Mannix, senior director, marketing who has been with the Mets for nine years; and former Mets pitcher Al Jackson ... Even taking into account the fact that I never until this very moment heard of Tina Mannix (any relation to Joe?) I think this committee is perfect.

Kong76 Nov 21 2009 01:29 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

Shea Way or something would sound better than Shea Bridge.

Edgy DC Nov 21 2009 01:41 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

I'd like, um, Greg on that committee. Otherwise, good call. Seriously, somebody should represent the fans and/or independent research, right? And probably somebody representing the figures currently in the Hall of Fame.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 21 2009 01:59 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 21 2009 03:26 PM

[quote="Edgy DC":16x2hkn9]I'd like, um, Greg on that committee. Otherwise, good call.[/quote:16x2hkn9] Seconded. Always found it funny that there's never an actual, non-organization-employed fan on these sorts of things. In honor of the Mets' prompt response to fan requests, I plan to be officially grateful for this in August 2015.

A Boy Named Seo Nov 21 2009 02:05 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

Bravo, Mets.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 21 2009 03:46 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

I'd kinda like to think that they're naming the bridge after the defunct ballpark, instead of Bill Shea.

themetfairy Nov 21 2009 03:50 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

[quote="Benjamin Grimm":1e9pq69c]I'd kinda like to think that they're naming the bridge after the defunct ballpark, instead of Bill Shea.[/quote:1e9pq69c] It can be for both.

metirish Nov 21 2009 04:28 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

[quote="A Boy Named Seo":2obsxwga]Bravo, Mets.[/quote:2obsxwga] This Looking forward to the changes/additions

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 21 2009 04:49 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

[quote="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":2qedojnj][quote="Edgy DC":2qedojnj]I'd like, um, Greg on that committee. Otherwise, good call.[/quote:2qedojnj] Seconded.[/quote:2qedojnj] F Greg. Nominate me instead!

metirish Nov 21 2009 04:57 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

[quote="John Cougar Lunchbucket":wtaic0cg][quote="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":wtaic0cg][quote="Edgy DC":wtaic0cg]I'd like, um, Greg on that committee. Otherwise, good call.[/quote:wtaic0cg] Seconded.[/quote:wtaic0cg] F Greg. Nominate me instead![/quote:wtaic0cg] Done Seriously, it would be cool to have two or three of you guys there.

G-Fafif Nov 21 2009 04:57 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

[quote="John Cougar Lunchbucket"][quote="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"][quote="Edgy DC"]I'd like, um, Greg on that committee. Otherwise, good call.

Seconded.

F Greg. Nominate me instead!

Come now. It's not like either one of us is Tina Mannix.

Batter Up: The New York Mets Tell Stern MBAs How They Play Ball On November 7, 2006, first-year Stern MBA students enrolled in the core course Introduction to Marketing got some tips about baseball—not how to play the game, but how to sell it. Professors Russ Winer and Joel Steckel moderated a panel with New York Mets Senior Director of Marketing Tina Mannix and Assistant to the General Manager Craig Marino, who revealed what it takes to pack Shea Stadium—attract and keep a fan base—regardless of whether the team is winning or not. This experiential learning forum complemented a case on the Mets’ variable pricing strategy used in the course. According to Tina, before a single pitch is even thrown, her marketing team is selling the potential of the team and the value of the experience, “Family Fun at the Ballpark,” the essence of the Mets’ brand promise. Mets fans are extremely loyal, so the push for season ticket holders to renew annually is fundamental to their marketing strategy. These ticket holders get the first opportunity to purchase post-season tickets, which paid off during the 2006 season as the Mets moved into the play-offs and just missed heading to the World Series. Tina noted that unlike past seasons, this year they pushed season tickets much earlier and all year long. Coming off a season high, she plans to introduce a bolder marketing campaign for the upcoming season that leverages the good will with fans. In 2003, the Mets introduced a variable pricing policy, common for Broadway and airlines, but new to sports, which offered fans multiple options and price points for purchasing tickets. According to Tina, this strategy addressed the laws of supply and demand: tickets for the most sought-after games, such as opening day and home games against the Yankees, cost more. Criteria such as time of year, day of week and opponent informed the policy. Both Craig and Tina reiterated the importance of understanding your target market segments and adjusting the sell to the market segment. Craig concluded with career advice for MBAs interested in breaking into a highly competitive arena such as major league baseball, stressing the importance of knowing what you want, what you bring to the table and why it’s valuable.

Kong76 Nov 21 2009 05:31 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

So she's the brain surgeon behind the Mets marketing many of us have questioned and made fun of for the better part of a decade?

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 21 2009 06:06 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

G-Fafif Nov 21 2009 06:38 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

For all we know, Tina Mannix was the driving force behind resuscitating the Hall of Fame, the one arguing behind the scenes that we're letting our fans down by letting such a valuable equity evaporate. Or somebody on the Mets said at Friday at 5:25, "We should probably get one more person on the committee. Go see if anybody's still at their desk."

SteveJRogers Nov 21 2009 09:05 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

If Strawberry and/or Gooden are not the next two inductees, I'd be very annoyed. From what Gary said in Greg's book, those two pretty much WERE the reasons the HOF dried up after Agee's induction in 2002. Guys who were still active for the most part at the time (Piazza, Alfonzo, Franco) aside, there weren't too many other "options" though that they could have put in during the meantime.

G-Fafif Nov 21 2009 09:17 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

One anticipates this element of the discussion being broken off into its own thread (similar to those that have sprouted during the long Hall of Fame drought), but if the HoF is going to follow the form it established in its early years, Davey Johnson and Frank Cashen are every bit as worthy of recognition as Dwight Gooden and Darryl Strawberry. I'd recommend taking care of Cashen as soon as possible, if you get my drift.

G-Fafif Nov 21 2009 09:29 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

[quote="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]

"Howie makes a compelling case for Ron Hunt, but research shows our target demographic would be more amenable to Spiderman being inducted."

Edgy DC Nov 21 2009 09:37 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

[quote="SteveJRogers":2xwki77i]If Strawberry and/or Gooden are not the next two inductees, I'd be very annoyed.[/quote:2xwki77i] I'd save my annoyance regarding order and just hope the next inductee is deserving. Considering the backlog, he (or she) would almost have to be.

Ashie62 Nov 21 2009 09:41 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

Strawberry Fields for Daryl

Frayed Knot Nov 22 2009 06:03 AM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

I'm not even going to get all that picky about who does/doesn't get in or in what order things happen. Just the fact that this acknowledges that they've been ignoring their past (lack of 'Metness' in the new crib) plus have a group in place that will at least keep an eye on the future (and has the right people to steer it) is a good sign all by itself. Yeah it's a shame that they didn't realize these things on their own and had to be shouted/shamed into it but, hey, baby steps first. Hopefully they're now on the path to realizing something that was discussed in another thread: the concept that marketing [u:2fl8orsm]the team[/u:2fl8orsm], and not just a select few who happen to be currently wearing the uniform, is a worthwhile goal.

Valadius Nov 22 2009 12:15 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

Shall we put odds on who's going to be the next person inducted? Gotta be Piazza, no?

dgwphotography Nov 22 2009 12:32 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

[quote="Valadius":3nqhl9wi]Shall we put odds on who's going to be the next person inducted? Gotta be Piazza, no?[/quote:3nqhl9wi] After rereading JCL's interview with Marty Noble, I really think Keith should go in first.

seawolf17 Nov 22 2009 12:44 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

Keith got in in 1997, according to the list. It'll likely be Darryl and/or Doc next, I'd think.

dgwphotography Nov 22 2009 03:37 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

Thanks - that's embarrassingly forgetful on my part...

Edgy DC Nov 22 2009 03:51 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

An old thread on the subject. http://cranepoolforum.qwknetllc.com/php ... 305ea90679 If I'm on the committee, my first vote would now be for Cashen.

Ashie62 Nov 22 2009 05:24 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

Cashen fits nicely..makes for a transition to the 80's

Fman99 Nov 22 2009 06:11 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

If you're not going to put Doc and Daryl in there you shouldn't bother having it in the first place.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 22 2009 06:17 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

[quote="Edgy DC":1vzrnxr1]If I'm on the committee, my first vote would now be for Cashen.[/quote:1vzrnxr1] I think it's Rube Walker's turn, but yes, since Cashen is clinging to life, I'd let him go first.

Edgy DC Nov 22 2009 06:26 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

Oh, yeah, as I wrote in that thread, I've got no problem with older guys jumping the line. But nobody's a bigger Rube Walker advocate than myself and I frankly don't think any coaches that don't also have managing tenures are on their radar screen, so if any of you see Howie Rose or Marty Noble over the holidays or after, put a big Rube Walker bug in their ears.

batmagadanleadoff Nov 22 2009 06:45 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

Too little and too late. While I'm glad to hear about the resuscitation and revival of the Mets HOF, I'm not about to cheer ownership for doing now what they ought to have been doing 10 years ago, and only after being shamed into it by fan outrage. They're not gonna mollify me by putting Tom Seaver's name on some plaque attached to some entrance way. Let's see what kind of Met Museum ownership installs what with just about every single Met artifact apparently sold off to pay for that big dumb number 42 looming in that rotunda that I refuse to acknowledge by name and about as tall as two Wilt Chamberlains.

Edgy DC Nov 22 2009 07:55 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

C'mon with that. It's enough that Ashie is distorting facts to suit an agenda. You know better.

batmagadanleadoff Nov 22 2009 08:38 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

I know. The truth of it is that I never really did measure the 42 sculpture that honors a Dodger that never even played for the Mets, situated at the architectural centerpiece of our new stadium. Not that a Duke Snider Rotunda would be any more appropriate. In fact, I shut my eyes real hard whenever I have to pass that number in order to lessen the indignity of it all. I never measured Wilt Chamberlain either for that matter, so what do I know even though, ironically, I began this post with "I know"? But really. Wilpon has to be shamed into building a Mets Museum? What kind of owner is the kind of owner that wouldn't know to honor its past right off the bat? What kind of soul does Fred Wilpon have? Does he love the Mets? Does he love the Mets the way you do, or the way I do, or the way any other member of this forum loves the Mets, all of us (and hundreds of thousands of others) devoting unreasonable amounts of our time and thoughts and emotions to this baseball team that we love. What do the Mets mean to Fred Wilpon? Perhaps the franchise is nothing more than another opportunity in Capitalism for Wilpon to make more money that he doesn't even need? I don't know that I'm convinced otherwise. Fred certainly hasn't shown it.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 22 2009 10:32 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

[quote="batsmagadanleadoff"]What kind of soul does Fred Wilpon have?

This might be a tad overboard. Maybe.

A Boy Named Seo Nov 22 2009 10:49 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

Yeah, I don't know that loving the Mets should be a requirement to owning the Mets, and I don't much care about that angle anyway. They built a pretty new house, but left a lot of the meaningful stuff from the old house in storage. People bitched and the Mets didn't have to, but they listened, and responded in a pretty solid way, as far as I see. A lot of people get off on beating the Mets down for shit they mess up on, but they're doing a decent job of correcting some mistakes here.

batmagadanleadoff Nov 23 2009 12:01 AM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

[quote="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"][quote="batsmagadanleadoff"]What kind of soul does Fred Wilpon have?

This might be a tad overboard. Maybe.

I was going for the, ahem, Met-a-physical angle.

metirish Nov 23 2009 07:44 AM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

An exchange between Ken Davidoff of Newsday and Paul Lukas of Uni Watch Yesterday, I wrote, of the Mets' adding their history to Citi Field: "...in 20 years, are we really going to remember, 'Gosh, the Mets sure botched the opening Citi Field by neglecting to acknowledge their own history'? Or will fans just enjoy the team history?" My buddy Paul Lukas, of the great Uni Watch blog, responded, "True, but it misses the point. Because in 20 years we'll be talking about the latest tone-deaf moves the Mets have made, and the stadium botch will be one of the more prominent entries in the 'Timeline of Mets Management Mistakes' hat we'll all be reading (and writing). The issue isn't whether one isolated incident is a big deal; the issue is that this ownership crew has a demonstrable tendency to mess up the simplest elements of team management. Or to put it another way: How many OTHER teams ran into this problem when opening their new stadiums? Right." Can't argue with that.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 23 2009 11:11 AM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 23 2009 11:45 AM

[quote="A Boy Named Seo"]Yeah, I don't know that loving the Mets should be a requirement to owning the Mets, and I don't much care about that angle anyway. They built a pretty new house, but left a lot of the meaningful stuff from the old house in storage. People bitched and the Mets didn't have to, but they listened, and responded in a pretty solid way, as far as I see. A lot of people get off on beating the Mets down for shit they mess up on, but they're doing a decent job of correcting some mistakes here.

To be fair, we cityfolk ARE paying for the house (aside from having to pay each time we enter).

And I think that the kvetching-- at least that which emanates from more reasonable precincts-- tends to be rooted less in the anger of "YOU SCREWED UP" and more in the bewilderment/frustration of "You screwed THAT up? Who screws THAT up?" I mean, teams normally mess up PR-wise with a postgame manager blow-up, or a player losing control in public... not with, say, forgetting to or accidental accusations of press ethical violations at a press-conference to announce a routine firing. Lukas kinda nails it.

Edgy DC Nov 23 2009 11:18 AM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

What I don't buy from Lukas is the hopelessness of it all. Are we really doomed to 20 years of tone-deaf promotion? The mistakes and miscues and misdeeds are what they are. But they stand for themselves. They don't project 20 years of errata. And it's certainly easy enough to see how a successful season by the team would've dwarfed all this.

soupcan Nov 23 2009 11:45 AM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

[quote="Edgy DC":1iqctmr3]And it's certainly easy enough to see how a successful season by the team would've dwarfed all this.[/quote:1iqctmr3] Absolutely. A winning season and getting rid of the black on the uniforms.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 23 2009 11:49 AM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

And getting rid of the drop shadow and the orange button. And renaming Citi Field to Bob Murphy Stadium. And eradicating all traces of Jackie Robinson and the Brooklyn Dodgers from the rotunda. And changing the facade so that it no longer resembles Ebbets Field. And applying tar and feathers to Jeff Wilpon. And Luis Castillo! And retiring numbers 1, 7, 16, 17, 18, 31, 36 and 45. Did I miss anything?

A Boy Named Seo Nov 23 2009 11:53 AM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

Leiter, you've got every right to kvetch (never used that word before). But at some point "You screwed that up?" should really become "OK, good job, Mets" if they really did address stuff that peeps were upset over. And that's not directed at you I don't think, but more to the "too little, too late" comment by batmags and the kind of unforgiving tone Lukas took. I mean, I don't know if the Indians fucked up the history of the Indians exhibit when they opened Jacobs field, or the Cardinals didn't build a memorial to Jack Clark when they opened new Busch. I don't follow those teams. While it's fun and cool for some to beat the crap out management, I think they're on the right path here is all.

metirish Nov 23 2009 11:56 AM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

Nothing short of the Wilpons selling the team will please some fans.

batmagadanleadoff Nov 23 2009 01:10 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

[quote="A Boy Named Seo"]Leiter, you've got every right to kvetch (never used that word before). But at some point "You screwed that up?" should really become "OK, good job, Mets" if they really did address stuff that peeps were upset over. And that's not directed at you I don't think, but more to the "too little, too late" comment by batmags and the kind of unforgiving tone Lukas took. I mean, I don't know if the Indians fucked up the history of the Indians exhibit when they opened Jacobs field, or the Cardinals didn't build a memorial to Jack Clark when they opened new Busch. I don't follow those teams. While it's fun and cool for some to beat the crap out management, I think they're on the right path here is all.

To clarify my position, I'm very happy to hear the latest Mets announcement promising to improve team history exhibits at Citi Field. But I'm unwilling to applaud Wilpon for finally doing what ought to have been done at the stadium's inception. And I can't separate this omission from the overwhelming Dodger-a-Rama that Wilpon installed at Citi Field. Because how come nobody had to shame Wilpon into ensuring that the Jackie Robinson paraphernalia would be ready when the new stadium opened up for business? How come there's an Ebbets Field Club when two of the last three extinct stadiums that hosted National League Baseball in NYC were home to the Mets and the only one that didn't host the Mets is the one that gets honored with a dining club? Alyssa Milano's flagship store? She's a Dodger fan -- a famous Dodger fan -- and even wrote a stupid book about how much she loves the Dodgers. I just don't think Wilpon's aloof about any of this. He'd have to be brain-dead not to understand what the typical Mets fan expects from a brand new Mets stadium without having to be bombarded by fan outrage. I swear to God, I think he's some cold, soulless and sadistic real life version of Montgomery Burns, probably ensconced in his inner sanctum and mocking his fan base in disdain, laughing at us and our addiction to this team, and the way we spend more of our time and money than we ought to, all for Wilpon's benefit, as he sees it. I think Wilpon sees us as suckers, paying $20 bucks to park our cars and groveling to have him name some stupid doorway after Tom Seaver.

G-Fafif Nov 23 2009 01:27 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

[quote="batmagadanleadoff"]I just don't think Wilpon's aloof about any of this. He'd have to be brain-dead not to understand what the typical Mets fan expects from a brand new Mets stadium without having to be bombarded by fan outrage. I swear to God, I think he's some cold, soulless and sadistic real life version of Montgomery Burns, probably ensconced in his inner sanctum and mocking his fan base in disdain, laughing at us and our addiction to this team, and the way we spend more of our time and money than we ought to, all for Wilpon's benefit, as he sees it. I think Wilpon sees us as suckers, paying $20 bucks to park our cars and groveling to have him name some stupid doorway after Tom Seaver.

From one of our blog's most reliable commenters recently:

Let's be honest with ourselves: we have no limit. Wilpon could bulldoze over our homes to create $20 remote parking for Citi Field, and we'd still take them back.

Edgy DC Nov 23 2009 02:14 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

Because how come nobody had to shame Wilpon into ensuring that the Jackie Robinson paraphernalia would be ready when the new stadium opened up for business? This is what I think folks continue to miss. Wilpon was shamed into dedicating the rotunda to Robinson. The Mets were under heavy pressure to name the stadium after Robinson. You think the Mets seem tone-deaf now? To say no to honoring the unimpeachable Robinson (or Martin Luther King), and to do it publickly, can easily get spun as a racist move. To do it, and instead opt for a corporate payday, makes it easier than easy to spin the organization and the owner as racist, selfish, corporate creeps. He had to give Robinson a high profile honor in order to get his stadium built without the shame that was already coming at him.

batmagadanleadoff Nov 23 2009 04:05 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

I'm not aware that there was ever any tangible pressure for the Wilpons to name the new stadium after Jackie Robinson. Any pressure of this nature was only in the imagination of the beholder. There were numerous editorials politely suggesting that naming the stadium after JR would be a good idea -- most but not all of it coming from cloutless bloggers, but also, from U.S. Sen Charles Schumer, who issued a press release in which he agreed that naming the new stadium after JR would amount to an honorable and decent gesture -- perhaps a bit of political grandstanding on the Senator's part-- but nothing even remotely resembling pressure backed by the threat of shame or the withholding of public funds. In fact, when the Wilpons made it official that the stadium's naming rights would ultimately be sold to a corporation -an eventuality that was never reasonably in doubt for even a second- Mayor Bloomberg and then Gov. Pataki responded publicly by backing the sale of the naming rights as the right thing to do. And if there was no serious pressure to name the stadium after JR, then creating a JR Rotunda could hardly be seen as a compromise. And who was there to appease anyway: the 30 year old who's too young to have ever seen JR play, blogging from his mother's basement in his pajamas for a JR Stadium? I think that the easier and less complicated answer is that Wilpon envisioned and then created a JR Rotunda because he wanted to. Or is Citi Field the House that Shame Built?

G-Fafif Nov 23 2009 04:27 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

[quote="batmagadanleadoff":2s8jl4an]the 30 year old who's too young to have ever seen JR play, blogging from his mother's basement in his pajamas for a JR Stadium?[/quote:2s8jl4an] Buzz Bissinger lives.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 23 2009 05:19 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

[quote="G-Fafif"][quote="batmagadanleadoff"]the 30 year old who's too young to have ever seen JR play, blogging from his mother's basement in his pajamas for a JR Stadium?

Buzz Bissinger lives.

Merry Thanksgiving!

Kong76 Nov 23 2009 05:22 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

Seo: kvetch (never used that word before) >>> Kvetch is one of my favorite words. Kvetching is one of my favorite activities.

metirish Nov 23 2009 05:32 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

It sounds like a Jewish thing so I've not done it either.

Edgy DC Nov 23 2009 07:54 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

[quote="batmagadanleadoff"]I'm not aware that there was ever any tangible pressure for the Wilpons to name the new stadium after Jackie Robinson.

Well, there was.

There was also a second wave of pressure after the CitiCorps bailout for Wilpon to "do the right thing" and tear up Citi's contract and name the stadium after Robinson like he supposedly should have done n the first place. If lobbying by a powerful US Senator --- from the state and municipality giving you all this money --- isn't tangible, I don't know what is.

And who was there to appease anyway: the 30 year old who's too young to have ever seen JR play, blogging from his mother's basement in his pajamas for a JR Stadium?

There's that US Senator you just mentioned and promptly forgot. I'm pretty sure he's over 30 and wears a suit and tie. How many of the people objecting to the rotunda have ever seen him play, or have a higher profile than basement blogger you mention? We're all internet dweebs here.

I'd really rather argue facts than construct silly hypotheticals. It's clear your mind is made up no matter what, though, if you're going to play the "mother's basement" card, so I guess I should just bail.

Ashie62 Nov 23 2009 08:02 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

Leiter and Franco were clubhouse lawyers

G-Fafif Nov 23 2009 09:50 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

My mother's long gone, and the house where we lived is no longer in the family. I've no basement in my co-op. Blogging was invented once I was past 30. But pajamas can be comfy, I'll cop to that. Anyway, the JR thing was definitely in the air, but I didn't get the sense it was a "You better name it for him or we're shutting this thing down" situation. I believe the Rotunda wasn't a sop but a heartfelt gesture. IMO, the result was somewhat over the top the way it elbows out all Met messages and, quite frankly, it's not all that exciting. Certainly not as exciting as Jackie was on the bases. From Michael Kimmelman's "Bad New Ballparks" in The New York Review of Books (an article, predating the HOF announcement, in which Dana Brand's latest book is quoted at length...though I don't know his stance on jammies), a pretty good take: Wilpon installed a tribute to Jackie Robinson, the former Dodgers star who never played for the Mets. An unimpeachable object of respect, the display of Robinson nonetheless embodies the cluelessness and historical amnesia (in this case I won't say cynicism) of an owner and club officials who in effect are implying that the Mets have no past of their own worth enshrining. This is also the message, as Brand laments, behind the absence of a museum to honor Mets stars like Tom Seaver and Keith Hernandez, but also to recall the Mets' crazy fans and both the great and horrible moments the team has experienced. It suggests management believes fans care only about winning, not about the continuum of history, notwithstanding that the sport is absorbed in the historical minutiae of its own records. Loyalty and memory are what fill stadiums year in and year out, Brand reminds us, even Yankee Stadium. Vague words like "teamwork," "determination," "persistence," and "courage" are now emblazoned around the Citi Field rotunda like slogans from some corporate retreat. These platitudes dovetail with the sense of business people, however well-meaning, who are disconnected from the game and its true followers.

G-Fafif Nov 23 2009 09:52 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

[quote="metirish":23fpyu5g]It sounds like a Jewish thing so I've not done it either.[/quote:23fpyu5g] I'll bet you have and you don't even know it.

Edgy DC Nov 23 2009 10:00 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

[quote="G-Fafif":3pb1pvnq]Anyway, the JR thing was definitely in the air, but I didn't get the sense it was a "You better name it for him or we're shutting this thing down" situation.[/quote:3pb1pvnq] Which certainly isn't what I've said, but rather a standard BML seems to want me to meet. I said he was shamed toward making the move.

G-Fafif Nov 23 2009 10:13 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

[quote="Edgy DC"][quote="G-Fafif"]Anyway, the JR thing was definitely in the air, but I didn't get the sense it was a "You better name it for him or we're shutting this thing down" situation.

Which certainly isn't what I've said, but rather a standard BML seems to want me to meet. I said he was shamed toward making the move.

However it got there, I'm going to feel more kindly toward it once it's adjacent to the Mets Hall of Fame and Museum.

Dana, not all that impressed about the naming of VIP entrances, makes a good point regarding the latter half of that equation:

The Mets should honor their greatest players, with information, memorabilia, sculpture, etc. I look forward eagerly to seeing a vital Mets Hall of Fame. But the Mets need to realize that if they just have a Hall of Fame commemorating important Mets, they will not have done enough. A museum needs to be more than a hall of fame. It needs to honor not only our heroes, but the experience of the millions of people, alive and dead, who have given a chunk of their lives to following the exploits of these heroes and all other kinds of players the Mets have had as well. The Mets are not the heroes. The Mets are the bond between the millions and the Mets, heroes and non-heroes. This is what needs to be commemorated in the museum. It has to tell the story not just of the Hall of Fame greatness of Seaver’s pitching and Piazza’s hitting. It has to tell the story of the people who hung the banners and marched with them on the field on Banner Day. It has to tell the story of the people who ran onto the field in the sixties, who knew it was spring when Bob Murphy’s voice told them it was, who stuck with the team when there was no rational reason to do so. It has to tell people about the Curly Shuffle, Jane Jarvis, the Sign Man, and Doris from Rego Park. It has to honor our songs and chants and apples and baseball-headed mascot. It has to remind us or teach us about the moments that will never be forgotten: Seaver’s almost-perfect game, Jones dropping to his knees, Tug’s September of Belief, the ball that found its way through Buckner’s legs, the Grand Slam single, Endy’s catch, the final ceremony at Shea: the moments that took our breath away and never gave it back. If the museum does not do this, it will not have done its work. Citi Field will still not be able to tell us who we are or why we’re here. Please don’t just give us what used to be in the entrance area of the Diamond Club. Please don’t just give us statues and trophies. Please give us the history and the poetry of the Mets. Please give us the sense that we’re still the New Breed, we’re still the loudest most emotional fans of all, the ones who made the Upper Deck of Shea feel like an earthquake. Give the museum enough space. And fill it with care, emotion, and imagination. Please. Mets fans deserve this. All of us.

Edgy DC Nov 23 2009 10:17 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

However it got there, I'm going to feel more kindly toward it once it's adjacent to the Mets Hall of Fame and Museum. Which I'm certain we'd all concur with.

HahnSolo Nov 24 2009 06:53 AM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

I'd survive if the Hall of Fame did not tell us about Doris from Rego Park.

batmagadanleadoff Nov 24 2009 11:48 AM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

[quote="Edgy DC":1b4nq9wk]I’d rather argue facts than construct silly hypotheticals. It's clear your mind is made up no matter what, though, if you're going to play the "mother's basement" card, so I guess I should just bail.[/quote:1b4nq9wk] Of course my mind’s made up. The JR Rotunda offends my expectations for what should be in a brand new 21st Century Mets baseball stadium. I don’t like the Rotunda and I don’t have to like the Rotunda just because you do. But likewise, there seems to be no doubt that your mind is also made up: you like that Rotunda and you’re not obligated to dislike it just because I do. So I don’t know what point you advance by stating that my mind is made up. I’ll tell you where my made isn’t made up though, and remains open: I’m still open-minded as to the possibility that Wilpon was coerced into building the JR Rotunda. I’ve got no skin in this game and could care less if it should be determined that the JR Rotunda was created against Wilpon’s will because of government pressure. No skin off my nose. Show me the evidence and you can convince me. I’m not about to re-interpret history just to win a forum exchange. But your case for coercion is uncompelling and rests entirely on your self-serving and unproven idea that any communiqué emanating from a U.S. Senator’s office is bullying and threatening in nature. And this is not so. In fact, the actual release from Schumer is so polite, so understated, that it borders on the bland, if not apologetic. One can see Schumer perhaps stammering with his head down like some sad puppy dog as he personally reads aloud his suggestion that the stadium be named after JR. The other problem with your theory of coercion is that the New Yankee Stadium was planned, funded and built simultaneously in time with Citi Field. So are we supposed to believe that the government ceded to every Yankee demand and let them build the most expensive baseball stadium in MLB history without any restrictions that would meaningfully undermine the Yankees’ grand vision for their new stadium, but decided to impose its will on Wilpon in order to hamper the Mets unfettered right to name their stadium as they saw fit? This makes no political sense, not that politicians make sense all the time. [quote="G-Fafif":1b4nq9wk]My mother's long gone, and the house where we lived is no longer in the family. I've no basement in my co-op. Blogging was invented once I was past 30. But pajamas can be comfy, I'll cop to that.[/quote:1b4nq9wk] I wan’t referring to you, or anybody else on this forum when I used the phrase “cloutless bloggers”. I‘m not aware that you ever wrote a piece suggesting that Citi Field be named in honor of JR, and if you did, I never read it. Hope there was no misunderstanding. Besides, clout has little to do with determining the readability of a particular piece. Still, I used the cloutless phrase because I think it applies here. Anyone claiming coercion ought to prove that the messenger has the ability to coerce in the first place.

batmagadanleadoff Nov 24 2009 11:49 AM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

[quote="batmagadanleadoff":uydbnu57][quote="Edgy DC":uydbnu57]I’d rather argue facts than construct silly hypotheticals. It's clear your mind is made up no matter what, though, if you're going to play the "mother's basement" card, so I guess I should just bail.[/quote:uydbnu57] Of course my mind’s made up. The JR Rotunda offends my expectations for what should be in a brand new 21st Century Mets baseball stadium and the context in which the Rotunda exists, as the architectural centerpiece of the new stadium. I don’t like the Rotunda and I don’t have to like the Rotunda just because you do. But likewise, there seems to be no doubt that your mind is also made up: you like that Rotunda and you’re not obligated to dislike it just because I do. So I don’t know what point you advance by stating that my mind is made up. I’ll tell you where my made isn’t made up though, and remains open: I’m still open-minded as to the possibility that Wilpon was coerced into building the JR Rotunda. I’ve got no skin in this game and could care less if it should be determined that the JR Rotunda was created against Wilpon’s will because of government pressure. No skin off my nose. Show me the evidence and you can convince me. I’m not about to re-interpret history just to win a forum exchange. But your case for coercion is uncompelling and rests entirely on your self-serving and unproven idea that any communiqué emanating from a U.S. Senator’s office is bullying and threatening in nature. And this is not so. In fact, the actual release from Schumer is so polite, so understated, that it borders on the bland, if not apologetic. One can see Schumer perhaps stammering with his head down like some sad puppy dog as he personally reads aloud his suggestion that the stadium be named after JR. The other problem with your theory of coercion is that the New Yankee Stadium was planned, funded and built simultaneously in time with Citi Field. So are we supposed to believe that the government ceded to every Yankee demand and let them build the most expensive baseball stadium in MLB history without any restrictions that would meaningfully undermine the Yankees’ grand vision for their new stadium, but decided to impose its will on Wilpon in order to hamper the Mets unfettered right to name their stadium as they saw fit? This makes no political sense, not that politicians make sense all the time. [quote="G-Fafif":uydbnu57]My mother's long gone, and the house where we lived is no longer in the family. I've no basement in my co-op. Blogging was invented once I was past 30. But pajamas can be comfy, I'll cop to that.[/quote:uydbnu57] I wan’t referring to you, or anybody else on this forum when I used the phrase “cloutless bloggers”. I‘m not aware that you ever wrote a piece suggesting that Citi Field be named in honor of JR, and if you did, I never read it. Hope there was no misunderstanding. Besides, clout has little to do with determining the readability of a particular piece. Still, I used the cloutless phrase because I think it applies here. Anyone claiming coercion ought to prove that the messenger had the ability to coerce in the first place.[/quote:uydbnu57]

Edgy DC Nov 24 2009 11:53 AM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

Coercion. Another expression I didn't use.

G-Fafif Nov 24 2009 11:57 AM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

[quote="batmagadanleadoff":25ei1vla][quote="G-Fafif":25ei1vla]My mother's long gone, and the house where we lived is no longer in the family. I've no basement in my co-op. Blogging was invented once I was past 30. But pajamas can be comfy, I'll cop to that.[/quote:25ei1vla] I wan’t referring to you, or anybody else on this forum when I used the phrase “cloutless bloggers”. I‘m not aware that you ever wrote a piece suggesting that Citi Field be named in honor of JR, and if you did, I never read it. Hope there was no misunderstanding.[/quote:25ei1vla] I didn't. I would have called it Shea Field but was resigned to Highest Bidder Park and hoped it wouldn't be too embarrassing. I just hate that "mother's basement" stuff in general, from long before I blogged. It would be like tarring every accredited beat writer with being old, out of it and drunk because maybe a couple of them have been.

batmagadanleadoff Nov 24 2009 12:17 PM Re: Loud and Clear? Mets Suddenly Hear Fans on HOF, et al

[quote="G-Fafif":3d8fwikm] I just hate that "mother's basement" stuff in general, from long before I blogged. It would be like tarring every accredited beat writer with being old, out of it and drunk because maybe a couple of them have been.[/quote:3d8fwikm] I agree with you. I wasn't a fan of Bissinger's "in the basement with pajamas" comment and thought that Buzz came off as doth protesting too much. His criticism of the blogosphere was disingenuous. If all bloggers were as inept and unreadable as Buzz implied, than what was there for Buzz to worry about? The market would figure it out and create a moat around the competition that Buzz obviously feared for his own self-serving reasons.