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Barry Larkin in 2000 (split from Other Hall of Fame)

HahnSolo Dec 02 2009 09:13 AM

Thanks to Leiter for a well-thought out and reasoned answer to my question about Larkin. I do want to make clear that my saying Piazza, Bichette, and Karros had better numbers was only for the year Larkin won the MVP, not for their overall careers (well only Bichette and Karros). And BOO for rejecting the trade!

duan Dec 02 2009 11:32 AM Re: That Other Hall of Fame

it's funny, that trade at the time was supposed to include Escobar and the mainstream media take on it was that the mets would have been mad, and they were MUCH better off getting bordick for [url]http://www.nytimes.com/2000/07/29/sports/baseball-the-mets-get-more-for-less.html Melvin Mora yet Mora was by far the most productive player of any mentioned anywhere in that article.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 02 2009 11:39 AM Re: That Other Hall of Fame

Count me among those who were unhappy about Escobar's inclusion in that trade. Now, though, with hindsight, maybe Larkin would have been the guy to tip the balance the other way in the 2000 World Series. (Unlikely, since the Series wasn't all that close, but maybe.) Escobar never amounted to anything, and with him out of the organization, the Alomar trade may not have happened. Not that that matters a whole lot; the Alomar trade in retrospect didn't help the Mets, but I don't see how it did much harm either.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 02 2009 11:50 AM Re: That Other Hall of Fame

[quote="Benjamin Grimm":d57qbuii]Count me among those who were unhappy about Escobar's inclusion in that trade. Now, though, with hindsight, maybe Larkin would have been the guy to tip the balance the other way in the 2000 World Series. (Unlikely, since the Series wasn't all that close, but maybe.)[/quote:d57qbuii] Big disagree. 19-16 cumulative score, 3 one-run games, 2 two-run games? Extra punch wins at least one more game in the series. At least. [quote="Benjamin Grimm":d57qbuii]Escobar never amounted to anything, and with him out of the organization, the Alomar trade may not have happened. Not that that matters a whole lot; the Alomar trade in retrospect didn't help the Mets, but I don't see how it did much harm either.[/quote:d57qbuii] In terms of what the actual value of the players ended up being? Not so much. In terms of what their perceived value was, and what could have been obtained? It's a missed opportunity... on both sides. (When Mike Bacsik might have been the most impactful player in the deal... then you've got a bad deal.)

Edgy DC Dec 02 2009 11:53 AM Re: That Other Hall of Fame

But it's not all that far-fetched --- the 2000 World Series, that is. Three of the Yankee losses were by one run. The fourth was by two (a 17-hop two-run single in the ninth by what's his name, the fat utility infielder, right?). Bordick went 1-8 with no runs, no ribbies, no extra bases, and an error. He gave way a lot to Abbott as well, who went 2-8, with a double and a walk. No runs or ribs for him either.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 02 2009 12:05 PM Re: That Other Hall of Fame

I absolutely feared the cost of Larkin at the time -- not the players or $$ but the rumored 3 year extension he was talking about to waive his 10-and-5 rights. And he did get hurt shortly after the deadline. But in hindsight it would have been a fabulous move and the kind of move where some sacrifice is forgiveable. I think Omar's more recently been guilty of a similar reluctance to pull the trigger midseason when there was a reasonable chance of it making a real difference: Reeling in a second baseman in 05, or some actual relief help in 07 for example.

HahnSolo Dec 02 2009 02:04 PM Re: That Other Hall of Fame

[quote="Edgy DC":24iiqz1v] He gave way a lot to Abbott as well, who went 2-8, with a double and a walk. No runs or ribs for him either.[/quote:24iiqz1v] Abbott's double came off Mariano with one out in the ninth and Pratt on first. I screamed to try to score Pratt on that (you just don't get many opportunities against Rivera) and he probably would have, as my recollection is that O'Neill didn't make the best play on the ball. So he should have had that ribbie. Pratt was held, and Timo weakly grounded out (I blame him as much for not getting that run in than not scoring on the Zeile double). Does Larkin get Luis Sojo's 27 hop single up the middle?

Edgy DC Dec 02 2009 02:11 PM Re: That Other Hall of Fame

Got to think he's got a better shot --- if healthy. Bordick was playing hurt and performing comparable to Cora 2009.

metirish Dec 02 2009 02:18 PM Re: That Other Hall of Fame Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 02 2009 02:24 PM

Abbott had an eventful WS , I thought that double had a chance to go out........getting picked of first by Pettitte in game 5 was horrible...

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 02 2009 02:22 PM Re: That Other Hall of Fame

Abbott was horrendous defensively. He'd missed half the year with a bad back and were he worth anything they'd never have traded for Bordick in the first place. I understand major league shortstops don't grow on trees but in 2000 as well as 2009, the Mets not having an able replacement at AAA really killed them. Depth. It's good!

batmagadanleadoff Dec 02 2009 02:30 PM Re: That Other Hall of Fame

[quote="John Cougar Lunchbucket":11oiodj9]Abbott was horrendous defensively. He'd missed half the year with a bad back and were he worth anything they'd never have traded for Bordick in the first place. I understand major league shortstops don't grow on trees but in 2000 ... the Mets not having an able replacement at AAA really killed them. Depth. It's good![/quote:11oiodj9] I was always convinced that Bobby V. simply loved Mora and was willing to compromise some defense at the position in order to benefit from Mora's bat. That's the move I wanted to see. And going from Ordonez to Mora constituted a greater offensive improvement than having Piazza replace Hundley. I was saddened to see Mora traded and replaced by Bordick. I believe that the Mets traded Mora against Valentine's advice.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 02 2009 02:53 PM Re: Barry Larkin in 2000 (split from Other Hall of Fame)

That game in Boston though. I thought you see in the body language of his teammates that they had absolutely no CAHNfidence in him. I think there's some unwritten jock code that says when something like that happens they're required to get rid of the guy.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 02 2009 03:16 PM Re: Barry Larkin in 2000 (split from Other Hall of Fame)

Yeah, that was the game that, sadly, drove Mora out of town. I remember it well, along with most of Valentine's quotes, supportive of Mora and rightfully critical (in a veiled sort of way) of the craptapulously overhyped stinkmeister, Rey Ordonez. BASEBALL; Mora's Misplayed Grounder Leads to Boston Rally in 9th By TYLER KEPNER Published: Friday, July 14, 2000 There was nothing unusual about it, Melvin Mora insisted. The Mets shortstop said he should have turned a game-ending double play tonight against the Boston Red Sox on Jose Offerman's hard-hit bouncer in the ninth inning. But Mora rushed himself, took his eye off the ball as the pinch-runner Manny Alexander approached second, and bobbled the grounder. Armando Benitez, who was pitching, counseled Mora, telling him not to worry about it. Mora told Benitez he was fine, and eager for another chance. ''That's what I think when I make an error,'' Mora said. ''Give me another one and I'm going to turn it.'' The opportunity never came. Jeff Frye flied to center for the second out of the ninth, and a 1-2 pitch to Brian Daubach just missed being called a strike to end the game. Then Daubach lined a low fastball down the right-field line. Right fielder Derek Bell thought one of three things would happen: the ball would bounce over the short fence for a ground-rule double; it would bounce high and carom back to him; or it would bounce low and stay near the wall. Bell hung back and waited for the carom, but it never came. The ball stayed near the wall and Bell scampered after it, but Offerman scored the winning run in a 4-3 Red Sox victory. ''It really hurts,'' said Mets catcher Mike Piazza, who went 1 for 4 and caught the whole game in his first game since suffering a concussion when he was beaned by Roger Clemens on Saturday. ''These types of losses do hurt pretty badly.'' The Mets had a chance to win a game started by Pedro Martinez, the best pitcher in the American League. Martinez struck out 10 in seven innings but was victimized twice by Jay Payton and left with the score tied, 2-2. The Mets also wasted another solid effort by Bobby J. Jones. But Mora may have been hurt worst of all; he said he felt responsible for the loss. The error was only his fifth in 33 games at shortstop. The Gold Glove winner he replaced at shortstop, the injured Rey Ordonez, had six errors in 45 games. ''He's playing just the way Rey played this year,'' said Mets Manager Bobby Valentine, who said Offerman's hit had sliced and was hardly routine. ''His errors have been the same per game that Rey had. If we're going to give him a full-page story every time he makes an error, then we've got to give him a full-page story every time he helps the team win.'' The error would have been an afterthought if Benitez's penultimate pitch had been called a strike. Daubach was asked if he could have done anything with the pitch. ''Nothing -- I would have struck out,'' Daubach said. ''I wouldn't have been surprised if he called it. There were a few high pitches that were called for strikes. It was close.'' Daubach took advantage of his new life and gave the Red Sox their first victory this season when trailing entering the ninth inning. In the process, he put the spotlight on Mora's misplay -- and on the absence of Ordonez, who has sometimes been forgotten because of Mora's superior offensive ability. ''Some people are going to think if Rey was there, he would have got the ball,'' Mora said. ''But I do my best. It's not the first error or the last one. But now, I feel sad. We could have had that game. Benitez threw pretty good, everybody threw good. Then one error, we change the whole score.'' Benitez (2-4) was the fourth Mets pitcher, and the first three were impressive. Jones worked six innings, allowing two runs and striking out eight to tie his season high. Dennis Cook looked dominant in a 1-2-3 seventh, striking out two, and John Franco pitched a scoreless eighth. Those pitchers were helped along by fine defense. Payton chased down a potentially troubling fly ball by Nomar Garciaparra to end a scoreless fifth inning with the bases loaded. Todd Zeile dived to his left to spear a hard grounder by Troy O'Leary, tossing to Franco for the out and saving a run to preserve a 3-2 Mets lead in the eighth. Payton and Zeile helped build that lead. Martinez set down the first five batters of the game, but Zeile doubled to the warning track in left-center. Payton was up next, and in his first career at-bat against Martinez, he doubled down the left-field line, scoring Zeile to give the Mets a 1-0 lead in the second. After striking out on a curveball in his second at-bat, Payton lifted a fastball over the Green Monster in the seventh, tying the score. INSIDE PITCH BOBBY JONES has a 2.73 earned run average in five starts since his brief assignment to Class AAA Norfolk. . . . BOBBY VALENTINE said he would try to slot RICK REED to make his next start on Monday in Toronto, and Reed is all for that. The right-hander, who is on the disabled list with a broken left wrist, threw about 40 pitches yesterday. He can catch with his glove hand and his strained calf has improved. ''I've done everything that I can possibly do,'' Reed said. ''Just got to get the clearance.'' . . . The Mets looked into trading for DENNY NEAGLE, the club's assistant general manager, JIM DUQUETTE, said, and they considered him the best starting pitcher available. But the Mets could not match the Yankees' offer of four prospects. . . . RICH RODRIGUEZ rejoined the Mets after five games at Class AAA Norfolk, where he added a changeup with movement. Rodriguez, who has been mainly a mop-up reliever, said he would no longer be bothered by how he was used. ''That was my biggest problem,'' he said.

Frayed Knot Dec 02 2009 04:54 PM Re: Barry Larkin in 2000 (split from Other Hall of Fame)

In fairness, Mora wasn't even a particularly good 3rd baseman for much of his time in Baltimore. He got better as things went on but was considered well below average for years. Bordick wasn't as good as hoped, but the real problem was him getting hurt late and having to rely on the backup's backup in the playoff.

Edgy DC Dec 02 2009 04:56 PM Re: Barry Larkin in 2000 (split from Other Hall of Fame)

I was an advocate for keeping Mora also. In fairness, the trade wasn't about getting rid of him, so much as getting a new shortstop. According to contemporary accounts, the Mets didn't offer him, but rather reluctantly gave him up when the Orioles insisted on him. How rich is that game story with the themes of the times apart from the elements you mention. You have: [list][*]Piazza's first game back from his beaning. [/*:m] [*]Benitez as Patron Saint of Ninth-Innng Scapegoats. [/*:m] [*]Bobby Jones' return from the Norfolk CureTM on the road back toward perhaps the best post-season start in team history. [/*:m] [*]Jim Duquette has hapless company man assistant GM. [/*:m] [*]The enimagtic persistance of Rich Rodriguez on the roster. [/*:m] [*]Future Met benchies on the Sawx like Offerman and Daubach. It's a Sawx team not yet ready for championship ball, but nonethelesss a contender built around a still-brilliant Pedro.[/*:m][/list:u]