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7 Game First Round Playoffs and More

MFS62 Dec 03 2009 10:13 AM

NEW YORK -- Get ready for more postseason baseball games -- and fewer off days. Players would like to see the first round of playoffs expand to best-of-seven when their next labor contract starts in 2012, Michael Weiner said Wednesday in his first news conference since replacing Donald Fehr as the union head. "There is a lot of sentiment for a seven-game division series," Weiner said. "I think a properly constructed postseason schedule could accommodate three seven-game series but still have it extend over a shorter period of time than what happened this year." The first round has been best-of-five since it began in 1995. Weiner hopes the length of the postseason can be shortened next year and was happy to hear commissioner Bud Selig say he will try to cut off days. Four extra days off were added in 2007 at the request of baseball's television broadcasters. As a result, the Angels and Yankees played just eight games in the first 20 days of the playoffs. "Everybody's in agreement that the postseason schedule needs some adjustment," Weiner said. "I'm a hockey fan as well as a baseball fan, and the pace of play this postseason was more of the way you expect a hockey season to go than a baseball season to go." Because the postseason extended into November, the offseason marketplace began later than usual. Just nine of 171 free agents have reached agreements, causing some agents to accuse owners of possible collusion. "I'm concerned a little bit. It's been a little bit slow," Weiner said. "I think it's too early to draw any conclusions, though, with respect to how this market will play out." Weiner was unanimously approved as executive director of the Major League Baseball Players Association during the annual meeting of its executive board in Scottsdale, Ariz. The 47-year-old Harvard graduate was hired by the union as a staff lawyer in 1988 and was promoted to general counsel in 2004. He succeeds the 61-year-old Fehr, who had been in charge since December 1983 and in June announced his intention. During bargaining in 2002 and 2006, Weiner was among the union's chief negotiators. He praised management for "a recognition that the union is a fixture in the game" but admitted some baseball owners may push for a tougher proposals in bargaining to replace the contract that expires in December 2011. "If there are owners who misjudge or underestimate the resolve of the players this time, I think they'll be met with the same surprise that owners of the past have met with when they misjudged the resolve of the players," Weiner said. Baseball owners have said intend to propose the amateur draft be expanded to include players from outside the United States who currently are free agents before they sign. The union is willing to agree. "There was plenty of sentiment for saying that players from Texas should be subject to the same rules as players from the Dominican Republic," he said. But the union will resist attempts by management to institute a slotting system of fixed salaries for draft picks. "This union has always stood for the proposition that, you know, players should have the right to bargain individually for their compensation," he said. Similarly, players historically have been against having payroll floors for teams. Boston Red Sox owner John Henry, concerned that some clubs aren't spending revenue sharing money, has suggested that payroll floors may be necessary. "If a club legitimately trying to compete has a plan that calls for them to be at a particularly low payroll for a given year as part of a longer-range plan to compete the following year or years after that, management should have that flexibility," Weiner said. There also is another reason. "Players historically have suspected that the request for a salary floor is a precursor to a request for a salary cap," he said, "and you know what the position of this union has been on salary caps." Weiner anticipates some change in the drug program for next year but didn't specific what they will be. Baseball does not test for human growth hormone because there is not a validated urine test. "I think the testing policy is working great," he said. "Does that it mean that it can't be improved? Of course not." He also was unconcerned the annual report from the drug program's independent administrator showed 108 players had therapeutic use exemptions (TUEs) this year to use otherwise banned substances because of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. "The number of new exemptions is a far lower number," Weiner said. "A healthy percentage of applications for new TUEs were rejected." Copyright 2009 by The Associated Press Interesting stuff. I like John Henry's idea for a salary floor. ESPN radio has reported that some clubs get $80 million a year in luxury tax and other payoffs, and little, if any of it, goes into the club. It goes into the pockets of club owners. Later

Edgy DC Dec 03 2009 10:28 AM Re: 7 Game First Round Playoffs and More

Which clubs are those? I'd like to see those numbers. I hope the foreign-born players don't let the union sell out their sons and nephews.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 03 2009 10:30 AM Re: 7 Game First Round Playoffs and More

MFS62 wrote: [ I like John Henry's idea for a salary floor. I don't.

MFS62 Dec 03 2009 10:38 AM Re: 7 Game First Round Playoffs and More

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: MFS62 wrote: [ I like John Henry's idea for a salary floor. I don't. Why not? I feel using that making tax money, plus tv and royalties revenues, mandatory as a salary budget minimum would allow smaller market teams to be stronger players in the free agent market. Later

Ashie62 Dec 03 2009 11:34 AM Re: 7 Game First Round Playoffs and More

I like the idea of a salary floor..That should add some balance. A precursor to a salary cap? Probably not, but I wish baseball DID have a salary cap. Use the NFL model..Every team has a shot at turning it around in one year. Baseball players making less money? Cool!!

metirish Dec 03 2009 11:50 AM Re: 7 Game First Round Playoffs and More

The NFL model, really? , I find it a most boring league , and it seems to me in the 15 years I have lived here the it's the same teams that are rubbish and not much changes at all.

Edgy DC Dec 03 2009 12:00 PM Re: 7 Game First Round Playoffs and More

The NFL model is awful and does nothing but raise the level of the owners' enrichment and the players' exploitation to unconscionable levels.

Ashie62 Dec 03 2009 12:27 PM Re: 7 Game First Round Playoffs and More

metirish wrote: The NFL model, really? , I find it a most boring league , and it seems to me in the 15 years I have lived here the it's the same teams that are rubbish and not much changes at all. American Football may be boring to you, but I believe there is more parity in Football than Baseball.

Ashie62 Dec 03 2009 12:30 PM Re: 7 Game First Round Playoffs and More

Edgy DC wrote: The NFL model is awful and does nothing but raise the level of the owners' enrichment and the players' exploitation to unconscionable levels. Awful? there is more parity in the NFL than baseball, Exploitation..Like baseball owners overlooking the steroid era?? many good football players make less than a backup catcher and frankly I don't care. Owners making money? That is the basic idea, right?

Frayed Knot Dec 03 2009 12:33 PM Re: 7 Game First Round Playoffs and More Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 03 2009 12:44 PM

but I believe there is more parity in Football than Baseball. No there isn't. The cap-less MLB model has produced as many or more different champions and different finalists over the last 10 years and over the last 20 as has the strictly-capped NFL - and that's true even though the NFL allows half-again as many teams (twice as many in earlier years) into their playoffs each year and has a much shorter anything-can-happen schedule.

Edgy DC Dec 03 2009 12:37 PM Re: 7 Game First Round Playoffs and More

Parity is a nice word we use for it. I don't like it. I call it a forced annual re-distribution of the talent to further restrict the players' bargaining positon. Now Potty Parity --- that I can behind.

Ashie62 Dec 03 2009 01:10 PM Re: 7 Game First Round Playoffs and More

Edgy DC wrote: Parity is a nice word we use for it. I don't like it. I call it a forced annual re-distribution of the talent to further restrict the players' bargaining positon. Now Potty Parity --- that I can behind. We could use some forced annual distribution of the baseball talent to keep the fans of every team connected. Potty-parity..cute

Edgy DC Dec 03 2009 01:15 PM Re: 7 Game First Round Playoffs and More

I like your goal but not your method of getting there.

seawolf17 Dec 03 2009 02:21 PM Re: 7 Game First Round Playoffs and More

metirish wrote: The NFL model, really? , I find it a most boring league , and it seems to me in the 15 years I have lived here the it's the same teams that are rubbish and not much changes at all. Was that a crack at the Jets? Well played.

Ashie62 Dec 03 2009 03:30 PM Re: 7 Game First Round Playoffs and More

seawolf17 wrote: metirish wrote: The NFL model, really? , I find it a most boring league , and it seems to me in the 15 years I have lived here the it's the same teams that are rubbish and not much changes at all. Was that a crack at the Jets? Well played. Thats a wrap!

Gwreck Dec 03 2009 04:01 PM Re: 7 Game First Round Playoffs and More

Any expansion of playoffs should be fought tooth and nail. We probably already have too much.

Frayed Knot Dec 03 2009 04:34 PM Re: 7 Game First Round Playoffs and More

Yeah, keep in mind that this idea comes from the new player assoc head who (reflecting his players) sees it as a way to generate more dough. The players also don't like the extra off-days within each round and hope to trade the one for the other. But Selig and the networks negotiated those extras days just prior to last year's playoffs and did so specifically to avoid games going up against each other and aren't about to throw more inventory into the mix. This whole thing is a non-starter IMO. If it were up to me, not only would I keep the first round at five games but I'd like to see them played all in a row - no days off at all. It's not like teams don't regularly play 5 days in a row during the season even with a city switch thrown in. OK, maybe the one or two series that involve the most (read: coast to coast) travel get an off-day - but that would be determined by the circumstances not the most attractive TV match-up. And, while we're at it, can the 2-2-1 format and revert back to 2-3. They're constantly fixing stuff that ain't broke. Of course none of this happens unless MLB is willing to take a few decimal points off the check FOX et al are signing so it's not going to happen even though Bud now agrees that the plan he agreed to is stupid.

Fman99 Dec 03 2009 06:11 PM Re: 7 Game First Round Playoffs and More

I love the five game division series. The NBA borked this same decision when they went to a best of 7 opening round. Stupid.

Frayed Knot Dec 03 2009 09:08 PM Re: 7 Game First Round Playoffs and More

Most media types I hear/read seem to be all for a 7-game first round so I expect this 'story' will get a decent amount of play even though it's really just a trial balloon floated by someone with no power to make it happen. Most who back the longer series fall back on the "more fair" argument, as in the better team has a better chance at prevailing if the series is longer. And that's probably true, but once you make the decision to allow non-winners into the post-season you then have to accept the idea that they're going to advance every now and then. It's like the WC proponents spend half their time talking about how great the inclusion of the wild cards were and then spend the rest of it trying to rig it so they get no further.

Nymr83 Dec 05 2009 08:59 AM Re: 7 Game First Round Playoffs and More

can the 2-2-1 format and revert back to 2-3 i dont like 2-3, the wild card or lesser division winner shouldnt get to start with 2 at home.

Edgy DC Dec 05 2009 10:25 AM Re: 7 Game First Round Playoffs and More

Ashie62 wrote: The NFL model is awful and does nothing but raise the level of the owners' enrichment and the players' exploitation to unconscionable levels. Awful? Awful. Ashie62 wrote: there is more parity in the NFL than baseball Whatever that means. Ashie62 wrote: Exploitation..Like baseball owners overlooking the steroid era?? One queston mark is fine. Do you really believe that football at any time in history, for a single day, has been a healthier sport for players than baseball? A cleaner sport? A better means to long-term happiness happiness, fulffillment, and self-realization? The truth is the "steroid era" of baseball was baseball culture slouching toward football. Ashie62 wrote: many good football players make less than a backup catcher and frankly I don't care. Then why dispute it if you don't care? I do. Ashie62 wrote: Owners making money? That is the basic idea, right? What indeed is "the idea"? Maybe for owners, the idea is self-enrichment. Frankly, I don't get off on it. For you, the idea seems to be some notion of parity. So we're kind of going in circles.

TransMonk Oct 26 2010 08:43 AM Re: 7 Game First Round Playoffs and More

More playoff games are again being considered: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=a ... edplayoffs APNewsBreak: Union would consider bigger playoffs SAN FRANCISCO (AP)—Baseball’s playoffs could be expanding in two years. The new head of the players’ union says his members are open to adding more wild-card teams for 2012 and possibly extending the division series to a best-of-seven. Union head Michael Weiner says it’s also possible players would agree to cutting the regular season from 162 games, but that’s more problematic because it would cost teams revenue. “There is sentiment among a substantial segment of the players to consider expanding the playoffs,” Weiner said Monday in an interview with The Associated Press ahead of his first World Series since replacing Donald Fehr as union head. Eight of 30 baseball teams make the playoffs under the format that began in 1995, a year later than intended because of a strike that wiped out the postseason in ’94. Baseball commissioner Bud Selig appears to be increasingly in favor of proposing more playoff teams during collective bargaining with the union next year, which will determine the postseason format for 2012 and beyond. “We have less teams than any other sport,” he said last month. “We certainly haven’t abused anything.” In the NFL, 12 of 32 teams make the playoffs. In the NBA and NHL, 16 of 30 teams advance to the postseason. The first round series have been best-of-five since they began. It’s possible they could follow the path of the league championship series, which began as best-of-five in 1969, then expanded to best-of-seven in 1985. “There are some players who have expressed an interest in that, as well,” Weiner said. “Obviously, you’ve got to look at everything together. But I think we can have a very healthy discussion with the commissioner’s office when bargaining begins about these issues.” Weiner said the union likely would generate a consensus on its playoff stance during its annual executive board meeting in December. Bargaining is likely to start in the first half of the year on the labor contract to replace the one expiring on Dec. 11, 2011. Only minor tinkering with the playoffs is possible for next October. “We’ve been talking about a revised schedule in 2011 that would be a compressed schedule for postseason play,” he said. “The structure for playoffs in 2011 will be the same as it’s been throughout this contract.” The regular season expanded from 154 games to 162 in the American League in 1961 and the National League a year later, when each of those circuits went from eight to 10 teams. “Certainly some of the players have said either we should shorten the regular season because the regular season’s too long, or we should shorten the regular season to accommodate expanded postseason,” Weiner said, adding that would have “revenue implications for the industry.” “That is one of the ideas that they are kicking around. But having said that, we understand that a proposal to reduce the length of the regular season will be viewed one way by the owners as opposed to a proposal to expand or modify the structure of the postseason.” Not all players are in favor of a longer postseason. “Personally, I like the system the way it is,” San Francisco Giants outfielder Aaron Rowand(notes) said as he prepared for Wednesday night’s World Series opener against the Texas Rangers. “I think just the one wild card team from each league. If you’re in a division where you’ve got a team running away with it, it gives all those other teams hope of something to play for throughout the course of the season.” Through 1968, there were no divisions and the team with the best regular-season record in each league advanced to the World Series. Giants reliever Jeremy Affeldt(notes) is concerned that adding wild-card teams or increasing the length of the division series would make a long season even longer. “If they’re going to do that, they need to shorten the season then. That’s a lot of games and that’s a long time. Even in the playoffs now we’re going potentially to Nov. 5,” he said. “Sometimes they think we’re just robots, but you’ve got to think of potential injuries. On pitchers, that’s a lot of throwing. Position players, some play every game all year. It just takes a toll on the body. If they’re going to do that, they’ve got to think a lot about the ramifications.” On other topics: — Weiner said the advanced dates for free agency this offseason were a test for future offseasons. “Both sides will have a chance to evaluate them and when we begin bargaining, presumably sometime in the early part of 2011, we’ll have a season of that under our belt.” — While the union chose not to pursue collusion grievances following the past two offseasons, “Some players obviously continue to be concerned about how the free-agent market has operated. We’re considering additional proposals concerning the free-agent market.” — Players may propose changes to salary arbitration eligibility, which has been basically unchanged since 1990. “Obviously players have seen the Super 2 cutoff become—to a certain extent it’s become predictable,” he said. “Other players say independent of that we think it’s time to revisit the question of salary arbitration eligibility in general.” — Players hope the September decision by the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals that the federal government illegally seized the 2003 drug survey test records and samples will be the end of the matter. The government has until December to ask the Supreme Court to review the case. “Obviously we are pleased with what the court did, and we hope this puts an end to the litigation and that would allow the union and the commissioner’s office to be able to honor the promise that was made to all the players who were tested in 2003,” he said. “I hope we can look back on 2010 and say that was the year that this litigation ended. Obviously, that remains to be seen.”

Benjamin Grimm Oct 26 2010 09:05 AM Re: 7 Game First Round Playoffs and More

“We have less teams than any other sport,” he said last month. “We certainly haven’t abused anything.” So let's not start now! Giants reliever Jeremy Affeldt is concerned that adding wild-card teams or increasing the length of the division series would make a long season even longer. I don't see any reason to shave eight games off the regular season* to accommodate two extra potential games in the LDS. *I'm assuming here that the season would be reduced to its original 154 games and not to 160. I'd be inclined to leave things as they are. I'd be okay with a best-of-seven LDS, though. (Maybe they can make the home-away counts more tilted against the wild card team. Maybe a 2-5 instead of a 2-3-2.) But I don't want to see the regular season reduced.

TransMonk Oct 26 2010 09:18 AM Re: 7 Game First Round Playoffs and More

I'd never thought of a 2-5 series, but I like it a lot now that you throw it out there. One less travel day and it guarantees that if the division winner wins the series, they do it at home. Great idea! They'll never go for it.

HahnSolo Oct 26 2010 09:29 AM Re: 7 Game First Round Playoffs and More

That might work for the wild card, but in the other series, would you make the lesser division winner only get 2 home games?

Edgy DC Oct 26 2010 09:29 AM Re: 7 Game First Round Playoffs and More

If the season is to truncated, I'd prefer it be done by adding more doubleheaders.

TransMonk Oct 26 2010 09:32 AM Re: 7 Game First Round Playoffs and More

HahnSolo wrote: That might work for the wild card, but in the other series, would you make the lesser division winner only get 2 home games? I would think it would be for the Divisional Series only.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 26 2010 09:38 AM Re: 7 Game First Round Playoffs and More

No, just any LDS or LCS series that features a wild card team. (But not the World Series)

HahnSolo Oct 26 2010 09:47 AM Re: 7 Game First Round Playoffs and More

Edgy DC wrote: If the season is to truncated, I'd prefer it be done by adding more doubleheaders. Agreed, and they could even be of the day/night variety to satisfy the teams that would gripe about the loss of a game gate.

Frayed Knot Oct 26 2010 11:15 AM Re: 7 Game First Round Playoffs and More

Once again I'm amazed. Not by the stuff in the article but by the the fact that someone takes the time to both remember and find a nearly year-old thread. It always fascinates me when that happens. As far as the topic, the only playoff expansion I'd like to see would be a double wild card situation where the two WCs would have to survive a one-game 'Play-in' round for the right to join the three division winners. This accomplishes several things: - Makes winning the division a HUGE advantage over merely qualifying as the next best record. At least one division "race" each year isn't a race at all because the loser knows there's little downside to losing. This year it was the AL East. - Puts the WC survivor at enough of a disadvantage (extra game, 50/50 shot at even advancing, less rest, burning of their best pitcher most likely) so that this silliness over worrying about how to rig home field advantage is lessened. If you're going to let non-winners into your playoffs you're going to have to accept the idea that they're allowed to win also. Besides, home teams lost some 60% of the post-season games this year so far anyway; it's pretty much a phony advantage. - Allows one more team to "be in it" and probably more than that who have a shot at it down the stretch but does so without having to extend the post-season (what, it's not long enough?) or cut down the regular schedule.

HahnSolo Oct 26 2010 11:45 AM Re: 7 Game First Round Playoffs and More

Let's look at the AL East this year as a counterpoint though: The Yanks and Rays would have had to go all out to win that final weekend. Let's assume the Yankees had won the division on the final day. That would put the Rays into the wild card playoff. Meanwhile the "second" wild card team this year would have been the Red Sox... who by the final weekend had sewn up their spot in the WC play-in game. So, Boston would have adjusted their rotation ahead of time so that their # 1 pitcher (I guess either Lester or Bucholz) would have been ready for the play-in game (and beyond should they advance). meanwhile the Rays we'll assume have gone all-out and maybe have to use James Shields in a winner take all one-game playoff. Seems a little unfair to Tampa. (I do realize that in many seasons the second WC would not be locked in, and they'd have to go all out.)

Benjamin Grimm Oct 26 2010 11:54 AM Re: 7 Game First Round Playoffs and More

To really be fair, you should only let first-place teams make the playoffs. Let the regular season mean something. The system that was in place from 1969 through 1993 was just fine.

Edgy DC Oct 26 2010 01:53 PM Re: 7 Game First Round Playoffs and More

It's easy to forget that all this post-season drama was there in the regular season. It was just called a pennant race. That's one of many wonderful things about the promotion/relegation system. Everybody is playing for something beyond the game in the final weeks. Every placement in the standings has value.

Ceetar Oct 26 2010 02:01 PM Re: 7 Game First Round Playoffs and More

HahnSolo wrote: Let's look at the AL East this year as a counterpoint though: The Yanks and Rays would have had to go all out to win that final weekend. Let's assume the Yankees had won the division on the final day. That would put the Rays into the wild card playoff. Meanwhile the "second" wild card team this year would have been the Red Sox... who by the final weekend had sewn up their spot in the WC play-in game. So, Boston would have adjusted their rotation ahead of time so that their # 1 pitcher (I guess either Lester or Bucholz) would have been ready for the play-in game (and beyond should they advance). meanwhile the Rays we'll assume have gone all-out and maybe have to use James Shields in a winner take all one-game playoff. Seems a little unfair to Tampa. (I do realize that in many seasons the second WC would not be locked in, and they'd have to go all out.) I think it's fairly rare for the second WC card team to actually have it all locked up. Presumably the Rays would've had the home field 'advantage' in that case though, which doesn't quite negate the pitching thing. I do kinda like that way. Although it still does theoretically punish what could be considered the second best team in the game. I don't think the Yankees were necessarily that this year, but it happens. I understand winning the division is supposed to be all 'meaningful', but ..this is how you end up with 83 win Cardinal teams (although they put up when it mattered, so it's a poor argument) or tanking teams in September with no challengers that end up as the 5th best AL team making the playoffs in 2000 (also won it all, so it's really hard to rank these teams going into the playoffs anyway..)