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2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting


Kevin Appier 0 votes

Roberto Alomar 28 votes

Harold Baines 1 votes

Bert Blyleven 23 votes

Ellis Burks 0 votes

Andre Dawson 10 votes

Andrés Galarraga 1 votes

Dwight Gooden 2 votes

Pat Hentgen 0 votes

Mike Jackson 0 votes

Eric Karros 0 votes

Ray Lankford 0 votes

Barry Larkin 22 votes

Edgar Martinez 22 votes

Don Mattingly 1 votes

Fred McGriff 6 votes

Mark McGwire 14 votes

Jack Morris 5 votes

Dale Murphy 6 votes

Dave Parker 2 votes

Tim Raines 23 votes

Shane Reynolds 0 votes

David Segui 0 votes

Lee Smith 2 votes

Alan Trammell 18 votes

Robin Ventura 0 votes

Todd Zeile 0 votes

Edgy DC
Jan 03 2010 06:56 PM

New voting procedures allow us to vote like the pros do!

seawolf17
Jan 03 2010 07:33 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

Gooden?

Valadius
Jan 03 2010 07:44 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

Dammit Edgy, you're going to taint the voting pool with Gooden in there.

Valadius
Jan 03 2010 08:42 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

There is some serious Dawson-hate going on here and I don't get it.

Vince Coleman Firecracker
Jan 03 2010 08:48 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

[quote="Valadius":34o1y2b6]There is some serious Dawson-hate going on here and I don't get it.[/quote:34o1y2b6]

He made an out in two thirds of his plate appearances. That's pretty tough to overcome and still produce at a hall-of-fame level.

Ashie62
Jan 03 2010 08:53 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

Somebody voted for Dwight Gooden?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jan 03 2010 09:41 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

[quote="Vince Coleman Firecracker":13fa1rwq][quote="Valadius":13fa1rwq]There is some serious Dawson-hate going on here and I don't get it.[/quote:13fa1rwq]

He made an out in two thirds of his plate appearances. That's pretty tough to overcome and still produce at a hall-of-fame level.[/quote:13fa1rwq]

Ahem-- MORE than two-thirds of his plate appearances. From a corner OF slot, the rest of the numbers aren't overwhelming, frankly.

Valadius
Jan 03 2010 09:46 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

[quote="Vince Coleman Firecracker":ptdbgmrr][quote="Valadius":ptdbgmrr]There is some serious Dawson-hate going on here and I don't get it.[/quote:ptdbgmrr]

He made an out in two thirds of his plate appearances. That's pretty tough to overcome and still produce at a hall-of-fame level.[/quote:ptdbgmrr]

I give you:

Lou Brock - .343
Robin Yount - .342
Johnny Bench - .342
Tony Perez - .341
Carlton Fisk - .341
Cal Ripken, Jr. - .340
Ozzie Smith - .337
Gary Carter - .335
Ernie Banks - .330
Brooks Robinson - .322
Rabbit Maranville - .318
Luis Aparicio - .311

Sure, OBP is a nice stat, but it's not the be-all, end-all some people make it out to be. I find it a bogus argument.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jan 03 2010 09:53 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

[quote="Valadius":fqp3ixsv][quote="Vince Coleman Firecracker":fqp3ixsv][quote="Valadius":fqp3ixsv]There is some serious Dawson-hate going on here and I don't get it.[/quote:fqp3ixsv]

He made an out in two thirds of his plate appearances. That's pretty tough to overcome and still produce at a hall-of-fame level.[/quote:fqp3ixsv]

I give you:

Lou Brock - .343
Robin Yount - .342
Johnny Bench - .342
Tony Perez - .341
Carlton Fisk - .341
Cal Ripken, Jr. - .340
Ozzie Smith - .337
Gary Carter - .335
Ernie Banks - .330
Brooks Robinson - .322
Rabbit Maranville - .318
Luis Aparicio - .311

Sure, OBP is a nice stat, but it's not the be-all, end-all some people make it out to be. I find it a bogus argument.[/quote:fqp3ixsv]

Two-thirds of the guys you list above played superlative-- as in, consensus greatest ever-- defense and/or put up otherwise superlative offensive numbers at difficult positions. The other third, it may be argued, shouldn't be IN the HOF in the first place (Aparicio, Maranville, Perez... and maybe even Robinson).

Gwreck
Jan 03 2010 10:01 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

Did you notice that on the list you produced, Dawson's OBP is only better than the bottom three?

Valadius
Jan 03 2010 10:08 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

Sure, but there are exceptions to every rule.

Vince Coleman Firecracker
Jan 03 2010 10:13 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

[quote="Valadius":2urush2p]
I give you:

Lou Brock - .343
Robin Yount - .342
Johnny Bench - .342
Tony Perez - .341
Carlton Fisk - .341
Cal Ripken, Jr. - .340
Ozzie Smith - .337
Gary Carter - .335
Ernie Banks - .330
Brooks Robinson - .322
Rabbit Maranville - .318
Luis Aparicio - .311

Sure, OBP is a nice stat, but it's not the be-all, end-all some people make it out to be. I find it a bogus argument.[/quote:2urush2p]

Dude, there's an awful lot of shortstops and catchers on that list. Apples, oranges, etc. Pedro Martinez has a career .134 OBP, but he'd have my vote if he were on the ballot (and I had a vote).

Frayed Knot
Jan 03 2010 10:14 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

I give you:

Lou Brock - .343 - Only guy here who, like Dawson, was a corner outfielder. But he was also one of the two or three greatest base-stealers ever
Robin Yount - .342 -- Spent half his career as a SS AND half as a CF
Johnny Bench - .342 -- Probably the best catcher in the 2nd half of the 20th century
Tony Perez - .341 -- The other guy who's not a middle of the diamond player, but borderline himself and came up during the toughest hitter's decade since the dead ball era. Is also 18 points above Dawson in OBA
Carlton Fisk - .341 -- In the class photo for best catcher in 2nd half of 20th century
Cal Ripken, Jr. - .340 -- A short-stop, and set a record you may have heard about
Ozzie Smith - .337 -- Not just a short-stop, THE short-stop
Gary Carter - .335 -- A catcher and a good one w/300+ HRs
Ernie Banks - .330 -- A SS for the first half of his career. Also a 500-HR guy when the meeting of that group could take place in a mid-sized sedan
Brooks Robinson - .322 -- Consensus best fielding 3rd sacker ever ... and probably a borderline choice, but is also the first one on this list to have a lower OBP than Hawk
Rabbit Maranville - .318 -- Short-stop
Luis Aparicio - .311 -- Short-stop


You're right. It shouldn't be all about OBP. And it isn't.
I think that without all his injuries Dawson would be an easier pick ... but other than that Mrs. Lincoln how was the play?

Edgy DC
Jan 04 2010 04:20 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

It's hard to figure out who hits the 75% threshold. Instead of listing above the percentage of ballots a player appears on, they list the percentage of votes for the player over total votes cast. I voted first, voted for five guys, and then each of them had a "20%" next to his name. That's not very helpful.

Edgy DC
Jan 04 2010 04:22 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

[quote="Valadius":30wbrgwc]Sure, but there are exceptions to every rule.[/quote:30wbrgwc]

It's not a rule. And it's not hate.

metsguyinmichigan
Jan 04 2010 07:07 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

I could go either way on Dawson. He has Steve Henderson's ROY award, and Darryl's MVP!

I don't think the Hall is cheapened by his entrance, should he be elected. But I'm not sure how you let him in and tell Dale Murphy and maybe even Parker that they're not invited.

It would be a shame if Raines and Larkin don't get in. Blyleven, too.

I'm wondering if Almoar will get punished for the spitting thing. Don't think Martinez should be punished for being a DH -- it's a real position, after all. There are other one-dimensional players in there -- cough, cough, Reggie.

No on Mattingly. Last thing the Hall needs is another damned Yankee.

TheOldMole
Jan 04 2010 08:14 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

For a lot of people, Maranville is the poster boy for "shouldn't be in the Hall," but the guy played 19 seasons as a full time regular at shortstop, which is not unimpressive.

Edgy DC
Jan 04 2010 08:18 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

I don't think DH is a position. It's the absence of a position.

And I don't think it's about "punishing." It's about not crediting.

I'm on the fence about Martinez. Had there been no DH, he likely would have been a thirdbaseman the first 50% of his career, a firstbasman the next 45-50% and a part-timer the last year or two. He probably would have compiled 90% of his offensive performance anyhow.

More importantly, since the percentages above don't really represent the percentages of voters casting ballots, do us a data-compiling favor and copy and paste this image into a post of yours above or below if you've voted.

Willets Point
Jan 04 2010 08:21 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

Benjamin Grimm
Jan 04 2010 08:23 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

metsguyinmichigan
Jan 04 2010 08:38 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

[quote="Benjamin Grimm"]

MFS62
Jan 04 2010 08:43 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting



And not for Dawson (he was a "very good player" but not HOF to me.)
And not for Edgar. If he had only worn a glove for a substantial part of his career, as Edgy mentioned, I would feel better about voting for him. But by not playing a position, he also avoided a potential (career-ending) injury that would have reduced his numbers by who knows how many. (See: Fosse, Ray and Reiser, Pete)
I also remember when Bill Veeck signed HArold Baines, he called him "Hall of Fame" Baines. It was a case of premature evaluation. A no from me.

Later

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jan 04 2010 08:50 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

I voted for 6 guys, all of the top-6 vote-getters on the list.

Vic Sage
Jan 04 2010 09:48 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

Gwreck
Jan 04 2010 09:55 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

I voted: Alomar, McGwire, Blyleven, Martinez.

I don't see DH as the "absence" of a position as mentioned earlier; it's more accurately described as "half" of a position (the corresponding other half being the pitcher).

HahnSolo
Jan 04 2010 10:05 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

I voted. Do I have to cut and paste the picture?

seawolf17
Jan 04 2010 10:10 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

themetfairy
Jan 04 2010 10:12 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

Edgy DC
Jan 04 2010 10:13 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

[quote="HahnSolo":aw26o2tk]I voted. Do I have to cut and paste the picture?[/quote:aw26o2tk]
At the end of the day, it'll make counting quick an hopefully unambiguous.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jan 04 2010 10:13 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting



I went top 6, plus McGwire.

Funny that MGiM pointed out Murphy and Parker, since that's exactly the tier Dawson sits in for me-- good-but-not-great. Baines as well, but a little below those guys-- call it Tier 2A.

FWIW, Edgar put up 563 GS at third (roughly 3 1/2-to-4 full seasons) and by reputation and available measure was quite good there. The Mariners probably would have kept running him out there until he broke down but for the fact that his bat was so good they didn't even want to chance it. I'll repeat myself for emphasis: he ended his CAREER with an adjusted OPS+ of 147. That means that in overall offensive prowess, adjusted for era, he was about even with McCovey, Stargell and A-Rod (pre-decline), just a shade below Aaron/Dimaggio/Kiner/Frank Thomas/Frank Robinson territory, and better than Delgado, Larry Walker, Reggie, Cap Anson, Chuck Klein, Bill Terry, Kaline, Yaztremski, Carew and a HOST of other HOFer OFers and 1B/3B-types. He can't just hang with the best offensive players of all time... he's smack in the middle of them. He's borderline in my mind, but he goes.

Nymr83
Jan 04 2010 10:22 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

[quote="themetfairy"]



voted

Edgy DC
Jan 04 2010 10:25 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

LWFS gives a pretty compelling argument for Edgy Martinez. That career .418 OBP is tastey.

He was borderline no for me. But I'm preparing myself to switch to a borderlline yes.

Frayed Knot
Jan 04 2010 10:34 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

MFS62
Jan 04 2010 10:55 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

Then in how many games does a player have to wear a glove before he crosses the border? Martinez' 3 - 4 seasons is too few IMO. It is less than half of the 10 year eligibility required for the Hall. And I feel if you let him in, it is (channelling Law and Order here) a "slippery slope".
Frank Thomas will be a more interesting case because he at least tried to play a position (some would say horrifically, if there is such a word) for most of his career.

Later

Edgy DC
Jan 04 2010 11:02 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

I don't think it's a question of how many years or games or such he played defense, but how much he didn't accomplish there vs. how much he did accomplish above and beyond elsewise.

batmagadanleadoff
Jan 04 2010 11:03 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

[quote="MFS62"]Then in how many games does a player have to wear a glove before he crosses the border? Martinez' 3 - 4 seasons is too few IMO. It is less than half of the 10 year eligibility required for the Hall. And I feel if you let him in, it is (channelling Law and Order here) a "slippery slope".



I dunno. But how many innings should a pitcher have to pitch to get into the HOF? Bruce Sutter pitched 1042 innings -- career. Tom Seaver pitched his 1042d inning in 1970.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jan 04 2010 11:11 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

You could make a case that Thomas-- not to mention each one of an elephant's shitload of HOFed oldsters-- would've been more valuable to his teams as a full-time DH, and that Edgar was therefore MORE valuable than an equivalent-hitting number-- McCovey, say-- of the subpar-fielding, supreme-batting all-time squad.

It would probably feel a lot more weaselly than it actually is, but you could make that argument.

86-Dreamer
Jan 04 2010 11:14 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

[quote="Willets Point"]

Benjamin Grimm
Jan 04 2010 11:18 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

Well, we know that there are at least 23 voters (since that's how many Alomar got) which means that for 75%, a player needs at least 18 votes.

So if Alomar was named on every ballot, that means that he, Blyleven, and Martinez are in, and Raines and Larkin fall just short.

(As of now, Alomar has 23 votes, Blyleven 19, Martinez 18, Larkin and Raines 17.)

Edgy DC
Jan 04 2010 11:32 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

Well, the flags suggest we have 12 ballots cast, which suggests Alomar has been named 193% of all ballots! Take that, Seaver!

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jan 04 2010 11:36 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

[quote="Edgy DC"]Well, the flags suggest we have 12 ballots cast, which suggests Alomar has been named 193% of all ballots! Take that, Seaver!



That reasoning spits in the face of logic.

Please tip your waitstaff, and stick around for Rip Taylor.

bmfc1
Jan 04 2010 12:04 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 04 2010 12:07 PM

If it helps your count, I voted. I wanted to vote for no one but didn't have that option.

Edgy DC
Jan 04 2010 12:04 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

Yeah! Raise the flag!

HahnSolo
Jan 04 2010 12:40 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting



Umm, here's my flag.

Vince Coleman Firecracker
Jan 04 2010 12:56 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting



Seven from me:

Roberto Alomar, Bert Blyleven, Barry Larkin, Edgar Martinez, Mark McGwire, Tim Raines, Alan Trammell.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jan 04 2010 12:57 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

[quote="bmfc1":34peocb6]If it helps your count, I voted. I wanted to vote for no one but didn't have that option.[/quote:34peocb6]

Curious: PED/character issues, or baseball-achievement issues?

bmfc1
Jan 04 2010 01:23 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

[quote="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":1r1b445f][quote="bmfc1":1r1b445f]If it helps your count, I voted. I wanted to vote for no one but didn't have that option.[/quote:1r1b445f]
Curious: PED/character issues, or baseball-achievement issues?[/quote:1r1b445f]

Thanks for asking. I want to see Keith, Gil and Marvin Miller in before anyone else so I've adopted a childish stance: if they aren't in, no one gets in.

Vince Coleman Firecracker
Jan 04 2010 01:53 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

Trammell looks like he's falling short. I'd like to know why. There are 21 shortstops in the hall of fame (including Ernie Banks, John Ward, George Davis and mebbe a few others that played significant portions of their careers at other positions). Throw Larkin, A-Rod and Schmerrick Schmeeter in with that list. BBTF's hall of merit has 25 shortstops, throwing Bill Dahlen, Jack Glasscock, Pop Lloyd, Dick Lundy, Dobie Moore, Dickey Pearce, Willie Wells, George Wright and (natch) Alan Trammell into the discussion. That's 32 shortstops, ostensibly the best that ever played.

Where does Trammell fit on that list for you? Chone Smith ranks him the 11th best shortstop of all time (69th best position player overall). I don't see him much lower than, say, seventeen, if you can even drop him that far. What did he do wrong?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jan 04 2010 01:56 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

[quote="bmfc1"]
Thanks for asking. I want to see Keith, Gil and Marvin Miller in before anyone else so I've adopted a childish stance: if they aren't in, no one gets in.



Understandable. I hear current Baseball America columnist/former Rocky Mountain News-er/Spinks HOFer Tracy Ringolsby refuses to vote for anyone until someone votes in french fries onto the annual BBWAA breakfast menu. WHERE ARE TRACY'S FRENCH FRIES? FRENCH FRIES!

metsguyinmichigan
Jan 04 2010 02:11 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

Trammell's a hero out here. Nice guy, too, from all reports. Whitaker deserved better than he got in the voting, too, dropping off very early. Tram's misfortune is that he came along just as Skank-Rod and Cal were changing the position.

Like Dawson, there would be worse players in the Hall if Tram got in.

G-Fafif
Jan 04 2010 02:16 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 04 2010 04:47 PM

I'd vote for Roberto Alomar if he'd agree to retire before 2002.

Vince Coleman Firecracker
Jan 04 2010 03:56 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

[quote="metsguyinmichigan":1maddefs]Like Dawson, there would be worse players in the Hall if Tram got in.[/quote:1maddefs]


Yabbut, unlike Dawson, the Hall wouldn't be worse with him in it.

And by worse, I just mean Dawson is below the standards of the Hall (outside of the Maranville- or Tinker-type mistakes) while Trammell is well within those standards.

Valadius
Jan 04 2010 04:01 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

Valadius
Jan 04 2010 04:48 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

Update from Baseball Think Factory:

Hall of Fame Ballot Gathering Machine

% Leaderboard after 84 Full Ballots…

88.1 - Alomar
81.0 - Blyleven
81.0 - Dawson
58.3 - Larkin
51.2 - J. Morris
42.9 - T. Raines
42.9 - Edgar
40.5 - Lee Smith
32.1 - McGwire
26.2 - Trammell
21.4 - McGriff
9.5 - D. Murphy
9.5 - Baines
9.5 - Parker
7.1 - Mattingly

Top Partial Ballot Leaders… (112 Full/Partials)

80 - Alomar
77 - Dawson
74 - Blyleven


I think Mattingly has a great shot of falling off the ballot this year. The collective sound of MFY fans' heads exploding will be delicious.

Chad Ochoseis
Jan 04 2010 06:51 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting




Alomar, Larkin, Blyleven, Martinez

Rockin' Doc
Jan 04 2010 09:09 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

metsguyinmichigan
Jan 04 2010 10:07 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

[url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/jon_heyman/01/04/heyman.hall/index.html

Heyman's explanations are so out there, that they're a must read.

G-Fafif
Jan 05 2010 02:28 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

[quote="metsguyinmichigan"][url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/jon_heyman/01/04/heyman.hall/index.html

Heyman's explanations are so out there, that they're a must read.



That reads like a parody of a baseball columnist explaining his Hall of Fame vote. Or a Mad Libs version wherein every noun or adjective is some version of "stats".

Edgy DC
Jan 05 2010 06:52 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

I disagree with Heyman a lot but never have I read so long and seen almost nothing there to agree or disagree with. After paragraph after paragraph getting around to why he didn't vote for Blyleven, he says nothing and nothing and nothing, until finally saying he didn't get enough Cy Young support.

And then, it's pretty much a monstrosity along the lines of:
"The numerically inclined may number numbers as a reason to vote for his impressive numbers. Me, I don't number his numbers un-impressive for a Hall of FAME, but I notice that his Cy Young numbers and the numbers he garnered during his first years of candidacy don't meet my numerical standards."

MFS62
Jan 05 2010 07:21 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

[quote="Edgy DC":32r4tzxa]I disagree with Heyman a lot but never have I read so long and seen almost nothing there to agree or disagree with. After paragraph after paragraph getting around to why he didn't vote for Blyleven, he says nothing and nothing and nothing, until finally saying he didn't get enough Cy Young support.

And then, it's pretty much a monstrosity along the lines of:
"The numerically inclined may number numbers as a reason to vote for his impressive numbers. Me, I don't number his numbers un-impressive for a Hall of FAME, but I notice that his Cy Young numbers and the numbers he garnered during his first years of candidacy don't meet my numerical standards."[/quote:32r4tzxa]
He should be locked in a warm, humid room, and have his columns piped in over the PA system, read by an automated voice. The automated voice would be reading them with more brains than it took him to write them.

Later

HahnSolo
Jan 05 2010 08:00 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

Jack Morris "was a general force in the American League!"

Well, hell, now I'm convinced.

Frayed Knot
Jan 05 2010 08:07 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

[quote="HahnSolo":bl1upaa4]Jack Morris "was a general force in the American League!"[/quote:bl1upaa4]

That's two levels better than being a major force!!

metsguyinmichigan
Jan 05 2010 08:14 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

I get frustrated when he says things like McGwire is an "unrepentant alleged steroid user." I don't thing you can be both alleged and unrepentant. How can you repent if you are facing only allegations?

And I don't want to defend McGwire much, but the guy has been sheepishly in hiding since that congressional testimony. That's sort of repenting. Now Bonds, that's someone who is unrepentant.

Let's see if Heyman oftens his stance a little when his boy Clemens is on the ballot.

And he's liking Mattingly based on his MVP votes? OK. Where's the vote for Dale Murphy, who has more -2 - than Mattingly and had a bunch of top-10 finishes. Be consistent.

His Raines discussion makes no sense.

And I don't like this idea of "I didn't vote for him this year, but I might later." Either you think he's a Hall of Famer or you don't. Raines isn't gonna steal any more bases. Jim Rice had the same number of stats in his first year on the ballot as he did in his 15th.

Edgy DC
Jan 05 2010 08:21 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

[quote="metsguyinmichigan":7t3n01hj]And I don't want to defend McGwire much, but the guy has been sheepishly in hiding since that congressional testimony. That's sort of repenting.[/quote:7t3n01hj]
I'll disagree. Avoiding difficult questions is not repentance.

Valadius
Jan 05 2010 08:47 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

[quote="metsguyinmichigan":m8k9zqkk]And I don't like this idea of "I didn't vote for him this year, but I might later." Either you think he's a Hall of Famer or you don't. Raines isn't gonna steal any more bases. Jim Rice had the same number of stats in his first year on the ballot as he did in his 15th.[/quote:m8k9zqkk]

Out of everything that annoys me with the Hall of Fame voting process, it's THAT that drives me crazy the most. I completely agree with you.

metsmarathon
Jan 05 2010 11:00 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

do you think there's some readily available (and preferably already analyzed) evidence out there that could refute or support the notion of truly great pitchers pitching to the score, as heyman contends?

i could envision looking at comparing runs allowed versus run support for hall of fame pitchers in individual games, and seeing if there's any notable correlation. i would expect that in blowout wins, the elite pitchers would have no problem allowing 4 or 5 runs, but in shutout losses, the elite pitchers would only ever allow one (unearned) run. rarely would an elite pitcher allow a bunch of runs in a blowout loss, and rarely would an elite pitcher bother shutting out his opponent in a blowout win.

i mean, that's gotta be the way these things work, right?

in fact, if i do a quick look at sandy koufax, in '64 and '65, i find something very interesting. using bbref's game logs, i plotted sandy koufax's runs allowed in each game, and, based on the score of the game at the time he exited the game, tabulated the run support he received. i did this for only the games he started, throwing out the three relief appearances as not necessarily representative. then i plotted a linear trend line.

mind you, the r2 values on these trendlines render them essentially meaningless, but the direction the trendline points in nonetheless interesting. you see, in 1964, the trendline slopes slightly downward, suggesting that for each run his team scored, he allowed 0.04 runs fewer. for all intents, this is probably flat. in 1965, the trendline slopes upward, but gently so. for each run that his team scored, he allowed an additional 0.13 runs. this is bolstered tremendously by a single game in which he allowed 5 runs with 12 runs of support. combining the two seasons together shows that for each run he received in support, he allowed 0.10 additional runs.

a tenth of a run. with negligible at best correlation in an admittedly miniscule sample size.

is that what we mean by "pitching to the score"?

Frayed Knot
Jan 05 2010 11:13 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

I've seen articles where guys looked for "pitching to the score" evidence (and specifically for Morris) and found it either bogus or at least as hard to nail down as "clutch".

Up the thread a ways I noted the (Newsday's) Ken Davidoff piece where he notes in his dismissal of Morris how it's funny how pitchers who 'pitch to the score' always seem to be those on good hitting teams whereas the same guy backed by a weak lineup will be labeled as flawed because he's always pitching 'just well enough to lose'.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jan 05 2010 11:15 AM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

I recall seeing a study done on that very subject, using Seaver among the study group. It must have been a SABR thingy.

Vince Coleman Firecracker
Jan 05 2010 12:39 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

Well, I googled "pitching to the score", and the first three hits are Greg Spira's article saying there's no such animal (he uses the James Pythagorean theorem to debunk the myth), Joe Sheehan's article, which agrees (he uses Morris' record in games grouped by run differential), and Joe Posnanski's article, which uses a similar argument as Sheehan to reach the same conclusion.

Pitching to the score doesn't really exist, and it took me about ten seconds to do the research necessary to figure this out. It's astounding how lazy some baseball writers are. Absolutely astounding.

Ashie62
Jan 05 2010 12:43 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

Is pitching to the score the same as "that pitcher is tough when he has a lead?

Valadius
Jan 05 2010 02:06 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

New Update from the Baseball Think Factory's BBWAA ballot compiler:

Hall of Fame Ballot Gathering Machine

% Leaderboard after 99 Full Ballots…

88.9 - Alomar
80.8 - Dawson
79.8 - Blyleven
57.6 - Larkin
50.5 - J. Morris
43.4 - T. Raines
41.1 - Edgar
39.4 - Lee Smith
34.3 - McGwire
26.3 - Trammell
21.2 - McGriff
10.1 - D. Murphy
9.1 - Parker
8.1 - Baines
6.1 - Mattingly

Top Partial Ballot Leaders… (124 Full/Partials)

94 - Alomar
89 - Dawson
84 - Blyleven

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jan 05 2010 02:26 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

[quote="Ashie62":3bkfqrzw]Is pitching to the score the same as "that pitcher is tough when he has a lead?"[/quote:3bkfqrzw]

More like "that pitcher with 20 wins and a 5.00 ERA isn't lucky to be playing for an offensively-gifted team; he magically knows that he can ease up, and can control how many runs he allows... while still allowing runs."

(Yeah, I think that sounds clunky and weird, too.)

HahnSolo
Jan 05 2010 02:33 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

I'll probably sound stupid, but in Val's chart what does "Top Partial Ballot Leaders" mean?

Frayed Knot
Jan 05 2010 02:36 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

I was going to ask the same question.
I believe it means that folks are reading and tracking those ballots that writers have made public in an attempt to gauge how the votes are leading in advance of tomorrow's announcement.

Benjamin Grimm
Jan 05 2010 02:36 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

Sounds like "pitching to the score" just a way to justify the validity of the flawed Win stat.

It's silly. Even with a 9-0 lead, a good pitcher should still be getting outs. Sure, he can go ahead and give up eight runs if he wants, but it's better if he doesn't. In the process of giving up those eight runs, he's throwing unnecessary pitches, keeping his fielders out in the field longer, making pitchers warm up in the bullpen when they could be resting, etc., etc., etc.

metsguyinmichigan
Jan 05 2010 02:42 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

My guess is some writers not revealing their whole ballot, but standing up for one or two candidates.

Would be nice to see Alomar get it, for no reason other than to have another New York NL on a plaque -- and have it mean us.

So far, I think we have Seaver, Mays, Spahn, Ryan, Carter, Berra, Murray, Rickey, Asburn, Snider ...am I missing someone? Are we on Stengel's plaque or was he inducted prior?

I should research before posting...

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jan 05 2010 03:02 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

[quote="Benjamin Grimm":2ch867ww]Sounds like "pitching to the score" (is) just a way to justify the validity of the flawed Win stat.[/quote:2ch867ww]

Has and always will be.

attgig
Jan 05 2010 03:13 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

[quote="Gwreck":4bfg96yo]I voted: Alomar, McGwire, Blyleven, Martinez.

I don't see DH as the "absence" of a position as mentioned earlier; it's more accurately described as "half" of a position (the corresponding other half being the pitcher).[/quote:4bfg96yo]

that would make him the greatest hitting pitcher of all time, and definitely should be in the hall :-P

does that also detriment AL pitchers, since they don't have to hit? do NL pitchers get an extra leg up in the hall???

attgig
Jan 05 2010 03:18 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting



Alomar, By, Dawson, Larkin, Edgar, McGriff, Raines

G-Fafif
Jan 05 2010 03:48 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

[quote="metsguyinmichigan":1eilwg6i]My guess is some writers not revealing their whole ballot, but standing up for one or two candidates.

Would be nice to see Alomar get it, for no reason other than to have another New York NL on a plaque -- and have it mean us.

So far, I think we have Seaver, Mays, Spahn, Ryan, Carter, Berra, Murray, Rickey, Asburn, Snider ...am I missing someone? Are we on Stengel's plaque or was he inducted prior?

I should research before posting...[/quote:1eilwg6i]

Final line on Casey's plaque: NEW YORK METS 1962-1965. Listed with N.L. TEAMS MANAGED.

As for Alomar, they should just etch in REDACTED where it will say NEW YORK, N.L. 2002-2003. There was nothing remotely Hall of Fame-like about his tenure here, not even a sense that he used to be great. Cut off his info at 2001. Nothing Hallworthy, not even a sense that he was once great, from his time as a Met.

TheOldMole
Jan 05 2010 03:56 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

Do you suppose Trammell and Whittaker get less HOF respect than they deserve because they played their whole careers for one team, and never got free agent bigbux headlines?

Valadius
Jan 05 2010 04:11 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

Lou Whitaker's immediate fall off the ballot was a disgrace, in my opinion. He deserved more consideration than that.

Chad Ochoseis
Jan 05 2010 04:18 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

[quote="The Old Mole":fujiy87q]Do you suppose Trammell and Whittaker get less HOF respect than they deserve because they played their whole careers for one team, and never got free agent bigbux headlines?
[/quote:fujiy87q]

Funny, I was just thinking the opposite - that Blyleven gets less Hall luv because he played for so many different small-market teams. A Tony Gwynn or a Kirby Puckett (or an Alan Trammell) gets remembered not just for greatness, but for being a huge part of his team's culture. Blyleven is maybe kinda sorta associated with the Twins, but not to the same degree as Puckett.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jan 05 2010 04:32 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

[quote="Chad Ochoseis":3potlv20][quote="The Old Mole":3potlv20]Do you suppose Trammell and Whittaker get less HOF respect than they deserve because they played their whole careers for one team, and never got free agent bigbux headlines?
[/quote:3potlv20]

Funny, I was just thinking the opposite - that Blyleven gets less Hall luv because he played for so many different small-market teams. A Tony Gwynn or a Kirby Puckett (or an Alan Trammell) gets remembered not just for greatness, but for being a huge part of his team's culture. Blyleven is maybe kinda sorta associated with the Twins, but not to the same degree as Puckett.[/quote:3potlv20]

Ditto. It also helps fix the player's iconic image in the collective mind's eye... which seems to loom large among voters who tend to vote along "most dominant/most feared of his era" lines. If we close your eyes and imagine Ripken, we'll all see the same stuff, most likely-- that rangy home-run stroke, starting a DP from a strangely upright posture, or tipping his cap after breaking Gehrig's record. It's the same for a lot of others... hell, even one-move guy Ozzie Smith is easy to picture turning backflips in Cardinal Red. I think a frequent-flying player's string of different unis tends to distract from that (see: Henderson, Rickey).

That may also have something to do with Trammell or Whitaker lacking respect... they didn't out-and-out excel at one aspect of the game. Ripken was a superlative hitter for a SS. Ozzie was the best fielder. Henderson was the premier base stealer of all-time, and perhaps the finest baserunner, too. All these players did more, yes, but they've got a defining characteristic-- they were superlative at one thing. All-around greatness like the Tiger duo's can be tougher to picture, and sell... and vote for, absent accompanying impressive counting numbers. (Sadly, I suspect Larkin's vote totals may eventually suffer from this as well.)

Nymr83
Jan 05 2010 05:44 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

Do you suppose Trammell and Whittaker get less HOF respect than they deserve because they played their whole careers for one team, and never got free agent bigbux headlines?


Trammell was as good or alot better (depending on how you want to value their respective defense) of a player than Derek Jeter is, he gets ignored partially for not being lucky enough to be surrounded by stars and partially for not playing in New York.

I'm not sure if I'm as sold on Whitaker, but considereing the CRAP that manages to stay on the ballot sometimes it is perplexing that he fell off.

Edgy DC
Jan 05 2010 05:57 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

A secondbaseman slugged .500 his last year --- yeah, hit was a half season, but still --- and then he retires at 38.

If he did that today he could cash that in for $6 million playing on one leg.

And yeah (John Heyman), he only got MVP consideration in one season, but unlike Ryne Sandburg, he never had a bad one. OK, one disaster at 23, but then 15 straight good, very good, or excellent ones. Mercy!

attgig
Jan 06 2010 12:57 PM
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

woulda thought Magnum PI would've helped. C'mon Selleck. Don't you have any pull with the baseball writers?