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Fun Hall of Fame trivia

metsguyinmichigan Jan 06 2010 10:36 AM

My buddy Will and I were speculating today that if Roberto Alomar gets elected to the Hall, which cap he'd be wearing on the plaque. He suggested O's, I thought Blue Jays -- since he's be the first Jays cap in there. We know from the Carter discussion that the Hall would like to have all the teams represented, if possible and defendable. So we were trying to figure out which teams currently aren't represented on a HoF plaque, and what their potential is to have that changed anytime soon. There are a couple obvious ones -- including one that could end today, but more likely in a few years and most certainly five years after Ken Jr. hangs 'em up. But when we started checking, we were surprised at one team's lack of representation. Can you guess which team has existed the longest without a player wearing its logo on a HoF plaque?

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 06 2010 10:38 AM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

Angels? (total guess)

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 06 2010 10:40 AM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

Rastros?

metsmarathon Jan 06 2010 10:41 AM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

astros

metsguyinmichigan Jan 06 2010 11:05 AM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

Wow! Two minutes and over! I thought Carew might be wearing an Angels cap, but upon checking it was the Twins. Ryan hosed them in favor of the Rangers. And really, I don't see them gaining someone anytime soon. Should Blyleven get in, I suppose he'd be a Twin. Others without: Astros - though Biggio and Bagwell will end that. D-backs -- Maybe randy Johnson Blue Jays -- Maybe Alomar Mariners -- Junior or Edgar Rockies -- no one I can think of on the horizon Marlins -- Sheffield? Rays -- McGriff? Nats -- Way too early

Edgy DC Jan 06 2010 11:08 AM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

Ryan (and the Hall) hosed the Angels and the Astros, who would have been the more preferable second choice. Aren't we living under the threat of Roger Clemens being the first human to willfully boycott his own Hall of Fame induction if he doesn't get the insignia he wants?

Benjamin Grimm Jan 06 2010 11:12 AM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

I really doubt that Clemens will ever be elected.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 06 2010 11:16 AM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

[quote="metsguyinmichigan":33ert5k3] I thought Carew might be wearing an Angels cap, but upon checking it was the Twins. Ryan hosed them in favor of the Rangers.[/quote:33ert5k3] To be fair, though, it's the HOF committee itself that makes the call, no? Alomar should probably be a Jay, Griffey a Mariner. I was about to rebut that the Big Mullet will likely go in as a Mariner, but his D-back years... and DAMN (7 seasons in 2 stints, 4 legit CYs/1 2nd-place finish). Do you blank-hat the guy? I would put a Vegas-longshot bet on Longoria being the first Rays HOFer.

batmagadanleadoff Jan 06 2010 11:20 AM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

[quote="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":12cfy1yx][quote="metsguyinmichigan":12cfy1yx] I thought Carew might be wearing an Angels cap, but upon checking it was the Twins. Ryan hosed them in favor of the Rangers.[/quote:12cfy1yx] To be fair, though, it's the HOF committee itself that makes the call, no?[/quote:12cfy1yx] The HOF has the final word on the cap/plaque issue -- but only since 2001. More HOF cap/plaque trivia. Which modern (Post WWII) Hall of Famer chose to go logo-less on his cap/plaque?

Benjamin Grimm Jan 06 2010 11:21 AM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

Catfish Hunter.

batmagadanleadoff Jan 06 2010 11:25 AM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

[quote="Benjamin Grimm":rlatfg1j]Catfish Hunter.[/quote:rlatfg1j] Correct.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 06 2010 11:27 AM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

Wow! Two minutes and over! I wish it was my knowledge of HOFers and not newness of franchises which was key to my guess.

metsguyinmichigan Jan 06 2010 11:27 AM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

I think the rule came about after the Devil Rays wrote into contracts for Boggs and maybe Canseco that they'd wear Rays logos on their plaques if elected. Fingers' cap is kind of a mess. I think the sculptor worked off a Padres photo and used the A's logo -- but included the lines for the different-colored panel on the cap, which was a feature of the Padres' cap.

Frayed Knot Jan 06 2010 11:27 AM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

[quote="Edgy DC":135a15u1]Aren't we living under the threat of Roger Clemens being the first human to willfully boycott his own Hall of Fame induction if he doesn't get the insignia he wants?[/quote:135a15u1] Roger would love just to get to the position where he can decide whether or not to boycott. Heard a story one time from someone I consider a reliable source about how Roger got his U-Texas number retired. He got to U-Texas only after a year in JuCo and Greg Swindell, who followed him by a few years, actually pitched there longer and better as #22. Clemens obviously went on the become the bigger ML star (although Swindell had a more than decent career himself) and wanted the honor from his Longhorns who apparently had a policy against retiring numbers*. But Roger promised the program major bucks in exchange for the number and the AD agreed in what was considered a slap in the face to both the previous good players who weren't offered the honor and specifically to Swidell. Then the upshot of the whole matter was that, after the ceremony, he was slow to own up to his promised donations and may never have given the full amount - but even then he wanted to call all the shots. * Since tossed aside for QB Vince Young and maybe one or two others.

G-Fafif Jan 06 2010 11:30 AM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

[quote="Frayed Knot":1q2emcfk]but even then he wanted to call all the shots.[/quote:1q2emcfk] Isn't that what Brian McNamee claims?

metsguyinmichigan Jan 06 2010 11:31 AM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

I can think of a logo for Clemens cap. My buddy thinks Vlad Guerrero might have a shot to be the first Angel.

SteveJRogers Jan 06 2010 11:34 AM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

[quote="metsguyinmichigan":aj8ji571]I think the rule came about after the Devil Rays wrote into contracts for Boggs and maybe Canseco that they'd wear Rays logos on their plaques if elected. [/quote:aj8ji571] The Boggs contract was part of it, but IIRC there were rumors of shennanigans going on with Dave Winfield choosing the Padres as his cap that was the final nail in the "player chooses cap" coffin.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 06 2010 11:37 AM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

[quote="G-Fafif":3q5go217][quote="Frayed Knot":3q5go217]but even then he wanted to call all the shots.[/quote:3q5go217] Isn't that what Brian McNamee claims?[/quote:3q5go217] Duck! It's a BOC!

Frayed Knot Jan 06 2010 12:56 PM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

I think Pagan is going to be the first Angel in the HoF And, fwiw, the HoF has claimed it's always been their call as to what goes on the plaque's cap, but they obviously got a bit loose in enforcing that for a time until rumors of supposed side-deals involving Boggs & Winfield woke them up.

Gwreck Jan 06 2010 03:58 PM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

[quote="metsguyinmichigan":3kh6a7gt] D-backs -- Maybe randy Johnson Rockies -- no one I can think of on the horizon[/quote:3kh6a7gt] I'd think Todd Helton has a decent chance of getting in, particularly if he gets 3000 hits. Randy Johnson is an interesting choice. He played longer in Seattle but won 4 of his 5 Cy Young Awards (plus a WS) in Arizona.

attgig Jan 06 2010 04:11 PM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

randy'll go in as a dback, i'm pretty sure. and the mariner's won't be too heartbroken knowing that griffey will be going to the hall only a year, maybe two after with the mariners cap.

Valadius Jan 06 2010 05:07 PM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

[quote="metsguyinmichigan":23owewvs] Rockies -- no one I can think of on the horizon[/quote:23owewvs] You're kidding, right? The name Larry Walker doesn't ring a bell?

Nymr83 Jan 06 2010 05:11 PM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

[quote="Valadius"][quote="metsguyinmichigan"] Rockies -- no one I can think of on the horizon

You're kidding, right? The name Larry Walker doesn't ring a bell?

Walker's park-adjusted numbers look alot better than I expected, I'd vote for him.

randy'll go in as a dback, i'm pretty sure. and the mariner's won't be too heartbroken knowing that griffey will be going to the hall only a year, maybe two after with the mariners cap.

thats really a tough choice. he won 4 cy youngs in 6 years for the d-backs... but he pitched 10 years for seattle and finished 1st, 2nd, 2nd and 3rd, he also finished 6th in the '95 MVP race, and I'd have given him the award (the guy who won, Mo Vaughn, wasn't as good as Albert Belle and arguably Edgar Martinez either that year)

I'd put Big Bird in as a Mariner, but I'm not upset either way.

seawolf17 Jan 06 2010 07:16 PM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

There is no way Larry Walker is a HOFer. Nice player, but he will not get enough votes.

metsguyinmichigan Jan 06 2010 07:57 PM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

I have to agree. A very nice player. But if he's in, then the door opens a lot wider for people with similar careers.

Nymr83 Jan 06 2010 08:33 PM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

[quote="metsguyinmichigan"]I have to agree. A very nice player. But if he's in, then the door opens a lot wider for people with similar careers.

good defensive corner outfielders who played 17 years (8000 PAs) with a 140 OPS+?
he's 74th on the career OPS+ list (which is 3k PA minimum on baseball reference), here are all the guys ahead of him on that list with at least 5000 plate appearences that are not in the hall and retired 5 years:

Joe Jackson (not really relevant to thisargument)
Pete Browning (only 13 years and 5300 PAs in the 1800's)
Dave Orr (8 years, 1800's)
Dick Allen (Walker had 700 more PAs, but this one is hard to defend)
Albert Belle (6k PAs, 12 years, worse defender)
Harry Stovey (1800's)
Jack Fornier (early 1900's, I'd never heard the name before but the numbers arent bad)
Frank Howard (comparable)
Babe Herman (12 years in the 20's and 30's, then 1 as a wartime replacement in 1945)

So i don't think the "Walker opens the doors to everyone" argument is really that great, because by at least one important measure of hitting there is only one clearly better hitter with nearly the ABs who is not in the hall (Jackson, who is banned) and only a few modern players (Allen being the leader of the pack) who are comparable and not in.

Edgy DC Jan 06 2010 09:10 PM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

And Dick Allen was one of your more poisonously dickish guys in recent memory. Albert Belle probably wasn't quite in his league. Though Milton Bradley maybe has been.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 06 2010 09:21 PM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

[quote="Edgy DC":1o5i6htq]And Dick Allen was one of your more poisonously dickish guys in recent memory. Albert Belle probably wasn't quite in his league. Though Milton Bradley maybe has been.[/quote:1o5i6htq] The batteries, fruit and racial epithets hurled at him throughout his tenure in Philly-- along with the whole Dick/Richie thing with the FO/broadcasters (a little before my time, but smells more than a little like Cassius/Muhammad from a temporal distance)-- might have had something to do with the attitude, no? Some guys turn the other cheek. Others take a swing at Frank Thomas when he comes at them with bats. His managers always spoke well of him.

Edgy DC Jan 06 2010 09:30 PM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

Oh, I'm certain it had more than a little to do with it. (I don't know if you recall it, but what precipitated him attacking Thomas was Thomas calling him "Muhammed Clay.") Nonetheless, there are more than a few reports that suggest he was a serious drain on morale. That's got to factor in to the list above. Certainly Bill James thought so.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 06 2010 09:36 PM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

I'd heard it started with Thomas crowing "boy" at a black rookie. If it's the Muhammad thing... that's kind of funny, considering my word choice. (Odd, not ha-ha, of course.)

Edgy DC Jan 06 2010 09:49 PM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

Well, my source is Thomas's own account so you can take that for what it's worth, but there's certainly more working against Allen than that, including walking out on his team. What's the source of the "boy" account?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 06 2010 10:06 PM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

I remember reading it in a book about the Phils' collapse (this was winter 2007-- I was trying to exorcise something, I guess) and its relation to race in Philly-- "September Swoon," I think. Vivid study... I remember that the author talked to the Phils' FO guys to get their responses to some of the accusations hurled their way since the time. "Muhammad Clay" might have been in there, now that I think about it. The author does paint a not-so-flattering-- if sympathetic-- portrait of Allen as somewhat defensively manipulative (if that makes sense) during that season. He also details a LOT of stuff that Allen had to deal with just getting from home to park-- not a fun commute. OE: I remembered the title correctly. And the writer is a historian, name o' William Kashatus.

Edgy DC Jan 07 2010 05:42 AM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

Bill Kashatus also (a) wrote a book about the 1980 Phils, and (b) has writen for the magazine I edit. I may have to reach out to him and get the skinny. There's a lot of accounts of Allen's personality being toxic to his teams. I have no doubt that his personality was shaped in part by trauma that he endured, including perhaps some coming from those same teams. Bill James lists him as second only to Rogers Hornsby in his imaginary ranking of "controversial" personalities. He also puts him one notch ahead of Keef on the all-time ranking of firstbasemen.

Frayed Knot Jan 07 2010 07:26 AM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

Costas had an interview with Dick Allen recently on the MLBN which I caught part of. FWIW, Allen dismissed the Thomas incident as nothing more than rough humor among friends that was blown out of proportion by others outside the circle. Whether that's a fact or him just trying to soft-pedal one of the controversies in his career was hard to tell. What's not in doubt is that Allen's drinking, late nights, missed appointments, etc., caused a number of his own problems.

TheOldMole Jan 07 2010 07:55 AM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

Dick Allen got an unfairly bad rap and belongs in the HOF. Besides, he had that great line about AstroTurf: "If a horse won't eat it, I don't want to play on it."

TheOldMole Jan 07 2010 07:56 AM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

Bill James lists him as second only to Rogers Hornsby in his imaginary ranking of "controversial" personalities. Wow. Where's this list?

Edgy DC Jan 07 2010 08:10 AM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

Like I said, it's imaginary (and probably includes just the two of them), but that observation comes in his comments in Allen's ranking in the New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract. He has a longer essay --- maybe there, maybe elsewhere --- on why Allen is a Hall of Famer on performance alone, but his counter-productive personality dips him below James' threshold. And not to make too much of the phrase "controversial players" --- in the way he uses it there, he means "really talented player who nonetheless undermined their team to some extent great or small with difficult personalities." I mean, Cap Anson wasn't controversial? Barry Bonds? Armando Benitez?

seawolf17 Jan 07 2010 09:03 AM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

OPS+ or not, Larry Walker -- and Todd Helton -- are cursed by the perception of Colorado. Unless you want to make some sort of mathematical model for HOF entry, there is virtually zero chance he gets 75% of the vote. The same way there's no way -- sorry, Rob Neyer, I don't care how many home runs he has -- Rafael Palmeiro will ever get 75%. McGwire and Bonds, a slim maybe; but definitely not Raffy.

Edgy DC Jan 07 2010 09:12 AM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

There's no moral component to Walker and Helton (and Holliday) playing in Colorado. It's just something that happened to them. So I hope voters will be more willing to entertain an objective sell that adjusts for home environments and still leaves them looking pretty shiiney.

seawolf17 Jan 07 2010 09:50 AM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

I agree with you; I'd love to see Todd Helton in the Hall of Fame. I'm just saying, objectively, that it's not going to happen. At least not right away. Maybe in 2019 when those writers have had more perspective, but not right away, and there's going to be all this outrage when he doesn't get elected right away, because they're not going to get close to 75%, and the thin air is what's going to dismiss lots of votes very quickly.

batmagadanleadoff Jan 07 2010 10:14 AM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

If I had to guess how the HOF voters would assess Helton and Walker's careers within the context of Coors Field, I'd guess that some of the voters would get it right and make proper and accurate adjustments for the extreme hitter's park. But among those other writers that would fail to properly adjust for Coors, I'd guess that more than half of those would under-adjust and thus, overestimate the value of the two Rockies. If most writers knew how to adjust for Coors Field (and Dodger Stadium), Mike Piazza would have won the 1997 MVP (his last full season as a Dodger) in a landslide, and Larry Walker would have one less MVP award.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 07 2010 10:41 AM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

[quote="Frayed Knot":yaaa3l3b]Costas had an interview with Dick Allen recently on the MLBN which I caught part of. FWIW, Allen dismissed the Thomas incident as nothing more than rough humor among friends that was blown out of proportion by others outside the circle. Whether that's a fact or him just trying to soft-pedal one of the controversies in his career was hard to tell. What's not in doubt is that Allen's drinking, late nights, missed appointments, etc., caused a number of his own problems.[/quote:yaaa3l3b] So... he's a smarter, less affable Mick, born into more unfortunate circumstance?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 07 2010 10:45 AM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

[quote="batmagadanleadoff":1svx9goh]If I had to guess how the HOF voters would assess Helton and Walker's careers within the context of Coors Field, I'd guess that some of the voters would get it right and make proper and accurate adjustments for the extreme hitter's park. But among those other writers that would fail to properly adjust for Coors, I'd guess that more than half of those would under-adjust and thus, overestimate the value of the two Rockies. If most writers knew how to adjust for Coors Field (and Dodger Stadium), Mike Piazza would have won the 1997 MVP (his last full season as a Dodger) in a landslide, and Larry Walker would have one less MVP award.[/quote:1svx9goh] They seemed to be under-adjusting then. I would put a decent amount of scratch down that a majority of the writers-- or at least a solid Heymanian plurality-- will overadjust come HOF-voting time.

Vince Coleman Firecracker Jan 07 2010 11:13 AM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

I dunno, Larry Walker sure looks like a hall of famer to me. Not that it's a be-all, end-all, of course, but check out where he is on this WAR list. He's in an interesting part of that list, sandwiched between Edgar Martinez and Jim Thome (two guys people here might not think of as HOFers) but also among names of players people think of as borderline-types like Alan Trammell, Barry Larkin and Ron Santo but higher than guys people are more confident in, like Alomar, Carter, Biggio, McGwire and Ozzie Smith. That's a fun list. Also in the mid 60's for career WAR: Kenny Lofton, one spot ahead of Tim Raines, tied with Willie McCovey. Kenny Lofton! A career-long centerfielder with four gold gloves (whatever they're worth), over 600 stolen bases (at about an 80% clip), a .376 OBP and .423 SLG. Hall of Famer?

seawolf17 Jan 07 2010 11:44 AM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

[quote="Vince Coleman Firecracker":632rhj0u]Kenny Lofton! A career-long centerfielder with four gold gloves (whatever they're worth), over 600 stolen bases (at about an 80% clip), a .376 OBP and .423 SLG. Hall of Famer?[/quote:632rhj0u] No. He's hurt too much by his moving all over the place, for a lot of reasons. One, he's not as readily identifiable with a particular organization. (Cleveland, I guess.) Two, at least some of that movement was in-season trades to contenders; he was in the postseason eleven times. He has, however, ZERO WS rings. Three, all he really did was run. Nice, but not enough. A nice piece for a good team, but not a HOFer.

Frayed Knot Jan 07 2010 12:26 PM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

[quote="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":2spthvnk][quote="Frayed Knot":2spthvnk]Costas had an interview with Dick Allen recently on the MLBN which I caught part of. FWIW, Allen dismissed the Thomas incident as nothing more than rough humor among friends that was blown out of proportion by others outside the circle. Whether that's a fact or him just trying to soft-pedal one of the controversies in his career was hard to tell. What's not in doubt is that Allen's drinking, late nights, missed appointments, etc., caused a number of his own problems.[/quote:2spthvnk] So... he's a smarter, less affable Mick, born into more unfortunate circumstance?[/quote:2spthvnk] Except that I got the idea that there were a lot more missed games, workouts and total disregard for managers with Allen. Mick, for all his carousing, might not have been in the best shape for all of his games but was not known for simply blowing them off and actually worked real hard to get his beat-up self ready for them - even if the beat-up part was at times self-inflicted. I don't doubt that the 1960s view of the dangers of an angry black man probably made Allen's rep worse than it was, but he also didn't need a lot of help in making it worse.

Edgy DC Jan 07 2010 12:34 PM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

He walked out on the 1974 White Sox, toward the end of what had been (for him, anyhow) an excellent season. Chuck Tanner had been given a lot of credit for handling Allen well before that. (Allen had won --- and deserved --- the MVP with the Sox under Tanner in 1972.) And certainly that credit may come from people with an interest in criticizing Allen. But there are a lot more cases of mistreated black players out there than there are of guys who've walked out on their team. I'm certain it's complicated. Maybe we don't know the half of it. Maybe his defiance made things better for the black players that followed him. But it sure made it harder on his teams.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 07 2010 12:50 PM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

All fair points about Allen, FK and Edge. It all kinda makes me gladder, though, that I was born what/when/where I was. Bill Kashatus also (a) wrote a book about the 1980 Phils, and (b) has writen for the magazine I edit. I may have to reach out to him and get the skinny. Just caught this. How fabulously weird. Please tell him I really enjoyed-- well, "enjoyed" might not be the right word-- "Swoon."

TheOldMole Jan 07 2010 03:48 PM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

Monte Ward has to be the most controversial. I mean, starting your own league...

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 07 2010 04:02 PM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

[quote="TheOldMole":3rusb2f2]Monte Ward has to be the most controversial. I mean, starting your own league...[/quote:3rusb2f2] Hal Chase just looked up from his card game in the corner and scoffed.

TheOldMole Jan 07 2010 05:46 PM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

Hal Chase was more slimeball than controversial. And he's not in the Hall, is he?

Edgy DC Jan 07 2010 07:38 PM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

No, sir. Even if his character could be restored, his numbers aren't so great. Missed some time with suspensions and walkouts also. Besides, who needs another Yankee?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 07 2010 07:47 PM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

Oh, I'm no Hal Chase booster. I'm just saying he was damn good-- by all reports, Keith-good with the glove, if not better, and that bat...

Nymr83 Jan 09 2010 12:35 PM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

Will Sheffield be the first Marlin in the hall? I can't see what other hat he should wear instead. The numbers are all there I just have a hard time thinking of him as a hall of famer.

TheOldMole Jan 09 2010 06:58 PM Re: Fun Hall of Fame trivia

Monte Ward, on the other hand, was a hero AND a great player.