Master Index of Archived Threads


Ken Caminiti 1996 NL MVP

Nymr83 Jan 09 2010 12:41 PM

What am I not remembering about that year? He won the award unanimously despite 5 or 6 guys putting up comparable offensive numbers and some of those guys playing 15 more games than him. Did he save an old lady from a burning building? the OPS+ list from that year.. 1. Sheffield (FLA) 189 2. Bonds (SFG) 188 3. Bagwell (HOU) 178 4. Caminiti (SDP) 173 5. Piazza (LAD) 166 6. Gilkey (NYM) 155

RealityChuck Jan 09 2010 01:29 PM Re: Ken Caminiti 1996 NL MVP

San Diego won their division, and had the second best record in the league. That adds to his value. Of those you mentioned, only Piazza played for a contender.

Centerfield Jan 09 2010 02:24 PM Re: Ken Caminiti 1996 NL MVP

You're talking to a guy who forgot he died.

Gwreck Jan 09 2010 02:42 PM Re: Ken Caminiti 1996 NL MVP

He also had a reputation as a superior fielder. Of the 6 there, only Bonds had a similar reputation.

G-Fafif Jan 09 2010 03:26 PM Re: Ken Caminiti 1996 NL MVP Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 09 2010 03:46 PM

He also had a Kirk Gibson type episode against the Mets, in Mexico. From Baseball Library: Caminiti's toughness reached legendary proportions in August of 1996, when two liters of an IV solution and a Snickers bar helped him overcome dehydration, diarrhea, and nausea and hit two home runs for the second straight game against the New York Mets in Monterrey, Mexico. The 8-0 win tied San Diego with Los Angeles for first place in the NL West; Caminiti's inspiring play eventually led the Padres to their first division title since 1984. Beleaguered at various points throughout the year by an abdominal strain, a partly-torn biceps tendon, a left elbow that required reconstructive surgery after the season and chronic pain in his back, groin, and hamstrings, the beleaguered third baseman became the first Padre ever to win the NL MVP. Snickers took out newspaper ads celebrating Caminiti's courage and their candy bar. It's not the sole reason he won, but it set him apart. Larry Jones clinched his sole MVP by hitting home runs against the Mets, in 1999. Several minutes later, I realize Bob Gibson won the '64 WS MVP, but Ken Boyer won the regular season version.

Edgy DC Jan 09 2010 03:28 PM Re: Ken Caminiti 1996 NL MVP

I imagine nobody ever enjoyed voting for Bonds and Sheffield. I disagree that playing for a division winner added to his value, though the voters may have thought so.

G-Fafif Jan 09 2010 03:47 PM Re: Ken Caminiti 1996 NL MVP

Garvey playing for a division winner in '74 probably won him the MVP vs. Brock, whose team just missed while he was setting records.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 09 2010 03:53 PM Re: Ken Caminiti 1996 NL MVP

Conventional wisdom is that Piazza got screwed in both '96 and '97. CW seems about right.

RealityChuck Jan 09 2010 04:49 PM Re: Ken Caminiti 1996 NL MVP

Essentially, by asking the question, you're falling into a common blind spot in analyzing events in the past: you're assuming that baseball fans looked at statistics and value the same way you do in 2010. By even talking about OPS+, you're introducing a factor that has absolutely no relevance to the MVP voting in 1996. They are not even a consideration by any fan or sportswriter at that time. People were voting at the time on many things: RBIs, Batting Average, home runs, how well the team did, how important that player was to the team, and character factors. The fact that Caminiti played hurt was also a factor into the voting. But using currently popular statistical measures to analyze MVP seasons in the past is measuring with broken yardsticks. It gives you no useful answers. In order to answer the question "why?" you must put yourself in the mindset of the voters in 1996, not assume (as you do) that they were wrong because they didn't use the same basis for analysis you do.

Edgy DC Jan 09 2010 07:22 PM Re: Ken Caminiti 1996 NL MVP

Well, OPS has been around since 1984, and it's components --- OBP and Slugging --- have been around forever. Nonetheless, his candidacy is certainly strong, and the question is answered above how he displayed the sort of percieved extra that could have put him over the top.

Frayed Knot Jan 09 2010 09:23 PM Re: Ken Caminiti 1996 NL MVP

You're not looking at the right statistics. Caminiti led the league in 'heart and soul' that year.

Nymr83 Jan 10 2010 08:15 PM Re: Ken Caminiti 1996 NL MVP

In order to answer the question "why?" you must put yourself in the mindset of the voters in 1996, not assume (as you do) that they were wrong because they didn't use the same basis for analysis you do. I didn't say they were wrong, I asked why it was unanimous, what isn't showing up in the stats that made him such an overwhelming choice when the stats paint a picture that i would have thought would lead to 5+ guys receiving first place votes.