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JerryWorld 2010

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Feb 16 2010 03:53 PM

I have a feeling we'll be talking quite a bit about on-field stewardship quite a bit this year. So before anyone else can Jerry-mander this conversational territory, I'll carve out a space in which we can discuss all things Manuel. A nice place to start-- and something of a Rorschach test-- might be found in looking back. What do YOU see when you read the first few pages of this Bill Nack piece, from the March 13, 2000 SI? A still-learning, somewhat-inexperienced manager standing his ground in dealing with an entitled (admittedly selfish-sounding) superstar? Obstinate, horse-blinded jackass, unable or refusing to understand an injured player's understandable self-concern? A failure of communication between manager and player, between organization and employee(s)? The making of a relationship, or the unmaking of one? Long-Ago/Barely-Recognizable Jerry? Same Old Jerry? Something in Between Jerry? Yet a decidedly real Thomas was in Arizona on that February morning, all 6'5" and 270 pounds of him, rolling to his feet and, like a child trying to get out of climbing the rope in gym class, holding a note from a doctor excusing him from doing certain rigorous exercises, including the dread shuttle—a series of back-and-forth wind sprints between traffic cones set at varying distances. Thomas had undergone surgery on his right foot late last summer, and he was claiming that the foot was still too raw and tender for the sudden stops and starts of the shuttle. But Manuel wasn't buying the excuses. The scene was almost touching. The note was in Thomas's back pocket, folded up, and he was seen repeatedly taking it out, unfolding it, showing it to Manuel and then returning it to his pocket, as if he were nervous and unsure of what to do. "Why aren't you going to do the shuttle?" Manuel demanded. "Jerry, you're not listening to me!" Thomas pleaded. "I'm not 100 percent healthy. I'll run it when I am!" "That's poor, Frank," Manuel said. "That's poor." The two ended up at silent loggerheads. Manuel eventually ordered Thomas off the field, and as the team started running the shuttle, there was Thomas in a place and pose symbolic of his life as a player for much of last year: standing to the side by himself, away from his young team, his giant arms folded across his chest and his face marked by a scowl. General manager Ron Schueler saw the angry, embarrassed player head for the clubhouse and steered his golf cart over to Manuel. "I've got a problem with him not doing the shuttle," Manuel said to Schueler. "I told him he couldn't be on the field. How do you want to handle it?" Schueler thought for a moment. "This is something you have to work out," he said. They worked it out, all right. The manager tracked his star player into the clubhouse. "Come into my office," Manuel said. He closed the door, but one could hear the two men shouting at each other, their voices rising and their words often profane. "That's a bunch of bulls—, and it had better stop!" Thomas yelled. "I'm not having it." "This bulls—is the reason why we are always butting heads!" Manuel said. What happened over the next two hours, during which Schueler joined them and White Sox p.r. men guarded the entrances to the clubhouse like Dobermans to keep out the press, was really an extension of what had occurred last year, from the silent tug-of-war that Manuel and Thomas had waged over Thomas's role on the club-designated hitter or first baseman?—right up to a climactic doubleheader on Sept. 6 in Texas during which a furious Manuel ordered Thomas back to Chicago. On that day a physically distressed Thomas, hobbled by a massive bone spur in his right ankle and a large corn on the disfigured small toe on that same foot, had struck out as a pinch hitter in the first game. "An embarrassing at bat," Thomas says. The right foot is the one he plants for balance and pushes off of for power, and the pain he had been feeling in it since early July had forced him to alter his stance and stroke. "My swing was just screwed up," he says. So he decided to sit out the second game. That Thomas made himself unavailable was not what stirred Manuel's pot; it was that he failed to inform his manager that he could not play at all in the nightcap. When the ideal moment arose for the righthanded-batting Thomas to pinch-hit—in the sixth inning, with two outs and the bases loaded and the White Sox losing 6-3, the Rangers brought in a journeyman lefty, Mike Munoz, to pitch—Manuel sent someone to fetch Thomas in the clubhouse. The emissary found the player out of sorts and out of uniform, in a T-shirt and shower sandals. Informed that his superstar was indisposed, Manuel began to pace the dugout like a puma, biting off and spitting out a long chaw of expletives and later telling beat reporters that he was as angry as he had ever been as the manager of the White Sox. "I was upset," he told the Chicago Sun-Times. "I was yelling things on the bench. It was like one of my kids had rebelled against me." He finally told his trainer, Herm Schneider, in front of the players, that Thomas would not be traveling with the team from Texas to Anaheim. "Send him home," Manuel said, as he would recall it later to the Chicago Tribune. "I don't want to see him on our plane. If he has a problem with that, tell him he can see me in my office." As the rest of the team winged off to California, a pouting Thomas blew off the press and flew back to Chicago. The next day Dr. Lowell Scott Weil, the team podiatrist, saw the bone spur on an X-ray and confirmed tendinitis through ultrasound. The White Sox were not in contention for a wild-card berth in the playoffs, and given the uproar caused by the Texas incident and considering the presence of all those impressionable young call-ups on the team, Schueler decided that the floundering Thomas should not wait for surgery. Indeed, the pain from the spur and the corn had worsened since the All-Star break on July 13, when Thomas was hitting .323 with 12 home runs and 57 RBIs. In the two months after that, growing increasingly helpless at the plate, he hit .271 with only three homers and 20 RBIs. On Sept. 13 Weil cut the spur off Thomas's ankle, and he was flabbergasted by the size of it. A former podiatrist for the Chicago Bears, Weil says he has treated 30,000 patients during 35 years of practice, and to call that thing a spur hardly described it. "It was the biggest I have ever taken out," Weil says. "It was truly the size of a golf ball." The spur was rubbing on a tendon in the ankle. Weil also removed from the little toe a large corn, which was filled with nerves and blood vessels, and operated on the twisted digit to remodel the bone and reconstruct the ligament. Thomas had come under withering attack in the press for his failure to pinch-hit in Texas and for taking an early exit from the season. He was depicted as a quitter who was tanking it to preserve his eighth .300 season. (He was batting .305 when he went down for the surgery.) He says that the ferocity of the attack was a factor that forced his flight to Los Angeles, where he rented a house in Beverly Hills for the winter. Thomas stewed about the incident for months, feeling that White Sox management had minimized the injury and left him twisting in the wind. He arrived in Arizona 2? weeks ago seeking to unburden himself, and Manuel came prepared to deal more firmly with him. Thomas had been in Tucson for only two days when the inevitable clash occurred, with Manuel confronting him on the field and then in his office. Manuel, a pleasant, soft-spoken man, is an admirer of Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr., but on his desk that week he had a copy of a book called Cigars, Whiskey & Winning: Leadership Lessons from General Ulysses S. Grant. He obviously stole a page from that and went on the offensive, riling Thomas by questioning his desire to be a team player. "I don't think you want to do what we do as a team," Manuel said. "It's important you do this with the team." Bristling, Thomas reminded Manuel of his foot surgery. "Don't play games with me like that," Thomas said. "I've been here 10 years. I'm going to be 32 years old. I'm a man. Treat me like a man. You don't need to play mind games with me. I've been through all the wars. I'm closing in on the tail end of my career, Jerry. I'm under the gun to get my s—together. So don't question my desire."

metirish Feb 16 2010 05:01 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

What do YOU see when you read the first few pages of this Bill Nack piece, from the March 13, 2000 SI? First I never heard of this incident before, I see a manager wanting to stamp his authority on a team even if it's the wrong fight and he's going about it the wrong way.Players say Jerry is a great communicator and he may well be but I see a man who can be very stubborn at times , to me Jerry comes across as wrong in the article but that may just be how it is written.

Edgy DC Feb 16 2010 07:04 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

I guess I've seen flashes of that insecurity --- probably more of it in Randolph --- but no, I don't think that's quite where he is now.

Ashie62 Feb 16 2010 08:17 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

I don't see that in Jerry now, time seems to have beaten him somewhat

Edgy DC Feb 16 2010 08:24 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Seriously, no offense to President Grant, but if you saw this volume on the desk of a guy you were inteviewing with, wouldn't you think, "I don't want to work for this asshole"?

Ceetar Feb 16 2010 08:45 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

I see very much of that still in him, you need to look no further then the first very game he took over. It's actually kind of disturbing that he hasn't grown or learned at all. He jumped at the first chance to put his stamp on 'his team', but asserting his authority over Reyes at first base when he showed signs of hurting himself. Manuel had already decided what he was going to do long before he analyzed Reyes at first, he didn't call for a trainer, didn't ask Reyes to walk it off or test it. And this wasn't a 'new' manager. Certainly this was a new role on the team, leading it rather than being 'second in command', but he wasn't a stranger to his players, to Reyes. If Reyes recognized or respected him as a leader, or as authority, he wouldn't have reacted to the decision quite the way he did. Following that event, I feel like there have been other signs that suggest that the players themselves aren't confident in Manuel's decision, even if it's as simple as Santana blowing off bunt signs.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Feb 16 2010 09:18 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Look, if it gets this toxic with any of the embedded players here, Jerry's the one who will be flying solo back to Chicago. I think he managed like a complete wuss last year but to be fair he seems to be the kind of manager who wants to spend some time character-building at the start of the year and then start pounding with "his guys" when the weather gets warmer. Valentine did that too. Only, Jerry never got that chance last year, since by the time they should have been winning half the team was injured, and they'd wasted too many games pinch-hitting for Castro and bunting in the first inning in the season's first two months to do survive that. He was sort of hoisted on his own petard as that saying goes. Interestingly, Jerry has said an awful lot about the importance of getting off to a strong start this year, and he knows his neck is on the line, so hopefully he steps on the gas sooner this year.

MFS62 Feb 16 2010 10:22 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Edgy DC wrote: Seriously, no offense to President Grant, but if you saw this volume on the desk of a guy you were inteviewing with, wouldn't you think, "I don't want to work for this asshole"? As compared to... who? someone with a Robert E. Lee book on his desk? Seriously, since I like military history (although the Civil War isn't my sweet spot), it might even be a positive. Grant appreciated strategy, winning and a good stiff drink every once in a while. Probably all things necessary to be a major league manager. Later

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Feb 16 2010 11:22 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010 Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Feb 17 2010 05:56 AM

MFS62 wrote: Edgy DC wrote: Seriously, no offense to President Grant, but if you saw this volume on the desk of a guy you were inteviewing with, wouldn't you think, "I don't want to work for this asshole"? As compared to... who? someone with a Robert E. Lee book on his desk? Seriously, since I like military history (although the Civil War isn't my sweet spot), it might even be a positive. Grant appreciated strategy, winning and a good stiff drink every once in a while. Probably all things necessary to be a major league manager. Later Grant enjoyed the drink a LOT-- he probably would have had five different kinds of rye on his desk rather than any history book. Also, he relied heavily on patronage and baksheesh in rebuilding the South, and sorta famously tolerant of corruption among his cabinet and other advisors. (Seems a natural soul-counterpoint for someone who seems to have his "guys" in every clubhouse, maybe.) I'd be a little wary, probably. But conspicuous display of any big-ass self-help book in a workspace hints to me that the guy probably isn't working as much as he should be, or that he's a fan of conspicuous display of self-help books. Either way...

Edgy DC Feb 17 2010 04:35 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

MFS62 wrote: Edgy DC wrote: Seriously, no offense to President Grant, but if you saw this volume on the desk of a guy you were inteviewing with, wouldn't you think, "I don't want to work for this asshole"? As compared to... who? someone with a Robert E. Lee book on his desk? More like, "As compared to what?" What being a real book. Not some market-driven "leadership secrets of" book that promises to sell you a new personality off the rack for twenty bucks.

metirish Feb 17 2010 06:58 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote I'd be a little wary, probably. But conspicuous display of any big-ass self-help book in a workspace hints to me that the guy probably isn't working as much as he should be, or that he's a fan of conspicuous display of self-help books. Either way... This.... I'm not impressed and I become skeptical of the person when I read about the books that are "just lying around" on his desk, not just Jerry as in this case." look at me I'm reading books on Mao and the new book by Jack Welch on leadership"....big fucking deal asshole.

MFS62 Feb 17 2010 07:04 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Yikes! When I replied, I never saw the image of the book cover/title on my PC. I wasn't at home - editing software. So my comment about leadership, winning and drinking was from what I remembered about Grant. I guess the author had the same ideas. As for the drinking, I recall a story about a woman coming up to President Lincoln and asking him if he knew that General Grant drank whiskey. Lincoln replied "He does? Then I'd like to find out what he drinks and send a case of it to my other Generals". (Could be paraphrasing there) I wonder if that's in the book. Later

Edgy DC Feb 17 2010 08:03 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

metirish wrote: I'm not impressed and I become skeptical of the person when I read about the books that are "just lying around" on his desk, not just Jerry as in this case." look at me I'm reading books on Mao and the new book by Jack Welch on leadership"....big fucking deal asshole. That's what I'm getting at. See it's all about brand advancement and exploiting brand loyalty (somebody must have written a book on Jerry Garcia's Leadership Secrets) in the niche market of "leadership" books, and not about teaching you anything at all. Add in the cross-market synergy of the period* with the whiskey and cigars, as if you too can lead armies in battle to save a nation, and you just have to adopt these bad habits. It becomes distressing that Jerry or somebody who loves him fell for such a weak-assed gimmick. * We talk about the conspicuous consumption of the Reagan eighties, but there was a nice little run of it in the Clinton nineties too (and I'm sure most every era of economic expansion). Among the expanding markets were SUVs, cigars, and top shelf liquor sold to folks who had previously been beer drinkers. It of course wasn't about leadership, but flaunting your big shot status.

TransMonk Feb 17 2010 08:17 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Cubs Fans' Leadership Secrets? Really? "Get drunk early, fade away late."

Ceetar Feb 17 2010 10:17 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Cubs Fans' Leadership Secrets? Really? "Get drunk early, fade away late." the subtitle is :learning to win from a cursed teams mistakes: *snickers*

John Cougar Lunchbucket Feb 17 2010 10:21 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Edgy DC wrote: Seriously, no offense to President Grant, but if you saw this volume on the desk of a guy you were inteviewing with, wouldn't you think, "I don't want to work for this asshole"? I'm sure high-profile "leaders" get these things mailed to them all the time. I'm a complete lickspittle and I get this kinda crap in the mail every week.

Edgy DC Feb 17 2010 10:31 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

That's a good point. If that was on his desk simply because it hadn't yet cleared out his garbage mail, and the author of the article wrote about it, well, one point to the marketing department.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Feb 17 2010 11:24 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I'm sure high-profile "leaders" get these things mailed to them all the time. I'm a complete lickspittle and I get this kinda crap in the mail every week. Well, maybe you should get "Lickspittling the Memphis Mafia Way" (w/foreword by Al Sharpton) off your damn desk.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Feb 19 2010 10:45 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Jerry met the writers today. Summary of Jerry Manuel's press conference » BY ADAM RUBIN • He very much wants to put Jose Reyes in the No. 3 slot, but won't push the issue if Reyes sulks. Manuel predicts he won't since Reyes is simply happy to be healthy in the manager's estimation. (JCL -- love this idea, now only if the writers and morons can take it) • Daniel Murphy isn't in a true contest for first base, or even facing a legit platoon with Fernando Tatis. That doesn't spell doom for Mike Jacobs. Manuel said he wants a power bat for the bench akin to what the Phillies had with Matt Stairs, even if the player is not a versatile fielder. JCL -- I like that too. • Now that Jon Niese is throwing off a mound, Manuel has revised his assessment of the fifth starter's race. He said it will be hard to keep him out of the rotation. JCL - OK • Henry Blanco is the backup, not physically capable of being the No. 1. Read more: [url]http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/mets/#ixzz0g0MRyLu2

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Feb 19 2010 11:04 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Agreed on points 1, 2, and 3. But isn't the whole point of a "backup" to have someone that you can at least count on as a warm body, more or less indefinitely? And Lord love stuff like this: Manuel said he intends to put an extra focus on ‘the fundamentals,’ this spring, specifically, ‘pitching, throwing strikes, defense and base running.’ So THAT's what they were doing wrong last year, Doctor? Well, fuck me twice and leave my money on the hope chest-- if they'd stopped walking dudes and dropping balls, we could have had something there!

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Feb 22 2010 11:06 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

How's he getting them to throw strikes? Here's how: One of the most interesting aspects of the Mets' first pitchers and catchers workout Saturday was the sight of pitchers charting each others' pitches during bullpen sessions. Pitchers were paired together on a bank of mounds near the back of the Tradition Field complex -- Johan Santana with Oliver Perez, John Maine with Mike Pelfrey, etc. While one pitched, the other stood behind him with a pen, paper and clipboard and recorded balls and strikes thrown. Then they alternated. Normally, a pitcher throwing a bullpen session will just fire away at the catcher. He has an idea of how well he's throwing, as do the coaches, but no one is counting balls and strikes. Now, Manuel hopes pitchers will be more conscious of the strike zone whenever they're throwing off a mound. "The guy that is performing knows now that he is being held accountable," Manuel said. "He's not just getting up there and just flinging it anywhere. He's being held accountable for throwing strikes." This makes perfect sense, of course, since wild pitchers are wild because they think they can get away with it. Really, though, this is all pointless, unless you start getting tough re: enforcement. Suck on walk fines, scofflaws!

Benjamin Grimm Feb 22 2010 11:20 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

I know that strike-throwing is a good thing, in baseball as well as in bowling, but there could be a danger in over-emphasizing this. If it becomes all about strikes, the result could be a big increase in hittable pitches over the plate.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Feb 22 2010 11:22 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Let's cut down on the walks anyway, what do you guys say?

metirish Feb 22 2010 11:52 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I know that strike-throwing is a good thing, in baseball as well as in bowling, but there could be a danger in over-emphasizing this. If it becomes all about strikes, the result could be a big increase in hittable pitches over the plate. Yes , just like last season emphasizing to the hitters to get on base more , they even had that drill that Jerry rigged for the players to hit 80 balls to the same part of the field , over and over......

Ceetar Feb 22 2010 12:01 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

metirish wrote: Benjamin Grimm wrote: I know that strike-throwing is a good thing, in baseball as well as in bowling, but there could be a danger in over-emphasizing this. If it becomes all about strikes, the result could be a big increase in hittable pitches over the plate. Yes , just like last season emphasizing to the hitters to get on base more , they even had that drill that Jerry rigged for the players to hit 80 balls to the same part of the field , over and over...... And to that effect, even the depleted 2009 Mets were near the top in league OBP weren't they? (goes to check). Close, they were tied for the NL lead with a .270 BA. Sounds like something focusing on singles to the opposite field would do.. (they were 7th in the NL with OBP.

metirish Feb 22 2010 12:08 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Yes , emphasized that to the detriment of power. something Hojo has acknowledged and will hope to right this Spring Training. I guess my point is to not overly focus on one thing ,like throwing strikes or hitting to all fields....yyybbb

Ceetar Feb 22 2010 12:12 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

complete players for the win? I think the smarter/older players have learned what Jerry does and does not know, so hopefully they'll have learned when to listen, and when to ignore. I hope.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Feb 22 2010 12:31 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Ceetar wrote: complete players for the win? I think the smarter/older players have learned what Jerry does and does not know, so hopefully they'll have learned when to listen, and when to ignore. I hope. You've got to know what's a rumor, know when to humor Know when to swing away, know when to bunt You never talk 'bout nuthin', when you're sittin' with an owie There'll be time enough for healin', when the season's done

Ashie62 Feb 22 2010 04:41 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Throw strike one

MFS62 Feb 23 2010 09:39 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

metirish wrote: Yes , just like last season emphasizing to the hitters to get on base more , they even had that drill that Jerry rigged for the players to hit 80 balls to the same part of the field , over and over...... I remember watching Alex Johnson take batting practice. He would hit a ball to left, then a ball to center, then a ball to right. Then he'd keep repeating that drill. IIRC, he led the league in batting that year. Later

Fman99 Feb 23 2010 10:08 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Ceetar wrote: complete players for the win? I think the smarter/older players have learned what Jerry does and does not know, so hopefully they'll have learned when to listen, and when to ignore. I hope. You've got to know what's a rumor, know when to humor Know when to swing away, know when to bunt You never talk 'bout nuthin', when you're sittin' with an owie There'll be time enough for healin', when the season's done You missed a golden "Fman rhyme" moment right there friend.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 13 2010 06:36 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

David Lennon begs for Jerry Manuel to "do something." He doesn't say what, exactly. (Plant an herb garden? Take up Mah-Jongg? Play his best eight guys regularly as starters?) That said, along with John Harper's Snooze piece yesterday (summed up via keywords: "unprepared," glass-jaw mentality, mindless baseball, no jokes), this seems to represent the press CW on Jerry/Flushing under Manuel control (no fundies, RISP problems, lineup construction). DENVER - Now that Jerry Manuel has taken "full responsibility" after Sunday's clunker by the Mets, not to mention an alarming 2-4 opening homestand, what is he going to do to fix it?Manuel had four hours on the team's chartered flight to get a head start, as well as an off day in Denver before the Mets begin a six-game road trip Tuesday night against the Rockies. It had better not take him too long to come up with some answers, either. Manuel and Omar Minaya were put on notice at the end of last season by COO Jeff Wilpon. So far, it's not working out too well. With Minaya away on a scouting mission, assistant GM John Ricco is the ranking executive for this trip. But unlike past visits to the Mile High City, the Mets aren't on high alert just yet. Losing two of three to the Marlins is understandable, even at home. Losing two of three to the Nationals, a perpetually rebuilding club, is not. After Sunday's halfhearted effort against 35-year-old Mets castoff Livan Hernandez, Manuel put the blame on himself because his team "appeared to be unprepared." But with six difficult games looming against the Rockies and Cardinals, Manuel has to use that upsetting performance as a vehicle for change in the lineup, and perhaps in the rotation, too. The Mets will look at moving Jose Reyes to the third spot in the lineup and also might decide to skip Oliver Perez in the rotation. Under normal circumstances, it would seem foolish to panic after only six games. But given the shaky job security of the people involved and the concern over sluggish ticket sales in the second season at Citi Field, these are not normal circumstances.Manuel is keenly aware of what's at stake, and he plans to take a closer look at his sputtering offense. The Mets are batting .189 (10-for-53) with runners in scoring position. "You're going to make outs in this game. It's just that I think the approach has to be correct," Manuel said. "We have to have the right mind-set going forward with that, and I haven't seen us be able to get to that point yet." It's not Manuel's fault that Reyes missed the first four games because of a hyperactive thyroid. But he made the decision to bat Mike Jacobs fourth in two games - the logic was to split righthanded hitters David Wright and Jason Bay - rather than the superior hitter in Bay. Manuel soon corrected that mistake. After sitting Jacobs on Thursday against Marlins lefthander Nate Robertson, he was dropped below Bay when he returned to the lineup Friday night. It's a start, but Manuel has more work to do. As much as the Mets would like Reyes to get comfortable again in the leadoff role, they have not abandoned the idea of hitting him in the No. 3 spot. Over the weekend, one of the club's decision-makers talked about how the Mets would be a better offensive team with Reyes batting third, especially in the absence of Carlos Beltran. Manuel also is likely to start Angel Pagan in centerfield now that Gary Matthews Jr. is hitless (0-for-10) since Opening Day. Throughout spring training, the assumption was that Pagan would be the starter until Beltran returns, and he didn't play himself out of the job. Plus, if the Mets choose to take the plunge with Reyes in the No. 3 spot, Pagan would make a decent leadoff hitter. Either way, he should be bunched atop the order with Reyes, especially with the gap opportunities at Coors Field. It might be time to move up Jeff Francoeur to take advantage of his quick start. Francoeur, who batted sixth Sunday, has hit safely in all six games and is batting .476 (10-for-21) with three doubles, two home runs and a .538 on-base percentage.

metirish Apr 13 2010 07:18 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Lennon should have added that the thinking behind possibly skipping Perez is to keep Santana on regular rest and not have him pitching on extra rest like he did last time out.

Ashie62 Apr 13 2010 07:22 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Well, the Mets couldn't take the Nationals. The media is circling. This is a nice time to get it together on the road. If this trip goes poorly a call to Bobby V's cell phone would be a start.

Benjamin Grimm Apr 13 2010 07:24 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Well, it's also better to get one extra start from Santana and one fewer start from Perez. I understand that most pitchers can no longer pitch regularly on three days rest, which is why we need five starters. But I think the fifth guy, unless he's really just as good as the rest of the rotation, should get skipped whenever possible. Maximize the number of outings from your better pitchers, and minimize those from the poorer ones. I'm surprised that most managers don't seem to do that.

metirish Apr 13 2010 07:30 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Didn't the Mets go with four starters the last few seasons to start the season?

Benjamin Grimm Apr 13 2010 07:41 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

No, although the fifth guy, Mike Pelfrey, did get skipped for his first start in 2007.

metirish Apr 13 2010 07:46 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

I ask a question and I get graphs.....nice

TransMonk Apr 13 2010 07:55 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

I had forgotten about the 13 starter circus in 2006.

Edgy DC Apr 13 2010 08:01 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

That Lennon article is kind of stinky.

Benjamin Grimm Apr 13 2010 08:07 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

TransMonk wrote: I had forgotten about the 13 starter circus in 2006. And look how smoothly 2008 went.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 13 2010 08:10 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Well, it's also better to get one extra start from Santana and one fewer start from Perez. I understand that most pitchers can no longer pitch regularly on three days rest, which is why we need five starters. But I think the fifth guy, unless he's really just as good as the rest of the rotation, should get skipped whenever possible. Maximize the number of outings from your better pitchers, and minimize those from the poorer ones. I'm surprised that most managers don't seem to do that. A good number of them do. It seems a no-brainer, in fact, doesn't it? Which is why you saw guys like Greinke, Zambrano, Sabathia, Gallardo, Beckett, Duke, Haren, Lowe and Lannan (!) start on Saturday, in their teams' fifth games. A good number of the others whose aces didn't start until Game 6 were going on regular rest, since they had Tuesday openers. The Mets were one of 4 teams that had its Opening Day starter on regular rest on Saturday that didn't use him. Edgy DC wrote: That Lennon article is kind of stinky. It's sad how, even as young bucks like Costa and Waldstein make their names (and rightfully so, if this offseason is any indication), guys like Lennon, Heyman and Burkhardt have seemed to slip in the last few months or so in terms of writing/reporting quality. Along with a couple of other former favorites, they live a lot closer to Hackville these days than I thought they did.

Swan Swan H Apr 13 2010 08:40 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

The Yankees and Red Sox had an even trickier decision, as Sabathia and Beckett started the season opener on Sunday and would have had their regular turn come up in the fourth game on Friday. Each chose to go with their fourth starter (Vasquez and Wakefield) and hold their ace back one day, but still bypassed their fifth starter for a day.

TransMonk Apr 13 2010 08:49 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Unfortunately, if they skipped #5 as often as they could, the backlash would be tremendous if Johan were to blow his arm out in July and have season ending surgery. Prevention and recovery indeed.

HahnSolo Apr 13 2010 09:54 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

The Brandon Knight, Philip Humber, and Brian Lawrence starts really stand out in those Septembers.

Ceetar Apr 13 2010 10:04 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

TransMonk wrote: Unfortunately, if they skipped #5 as often as they could, the backlash would be tremendous if Johan were to blow his arm out in July and have season ending surgery. Prevention and recovery indeed. Well, I feel like Johan, especially coming off arm surgery, could use the extra day during the earlier months. Also, as pitchers throw more pitches per start than they did the previous time out at this time of year, arguably putting more strain on the arm, that extra day to heal it could help as well. I also feel like it could hurt the 5th guy a bit by not keeping him on a semi-regular schedule and having him pitch after 5 days and then after 10. Especially when the guy's a rookie like Niese who arguably will be better in September the more starts he gets now.

metirish Apr 13 2010 10:06 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

I think part of the issue here is that Santana wants to pitch on his regular day and not get that extra rest.

Ceetar Apr 13 2010 10:09 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

metirish wrote: I think part of the issue here is that Santana wants to pitch on his regular day and not get that extra rest. Another thing to consider is the whole 'verducci effect' thing, which may be just a theory, and the Mets haven't traditionally adhered to it anyway, but as much as I want Niese to get his reps, occasionally skipping him to keep his overall innings total down might be wise, especially if it gets Santana an extra start over the course of a season and it keeps him happy.

Ashie62 Apr 13 2010 10:21 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

metirish wrote: I think part of the issue here is that Santana wants to pitch on his regular day and not get that extra rest. Then let him. Move the other Mooks around

Edgy DC Apr 13 2010 10:26 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

I think there's two ways to set the rotation, and both are defensible. Probably the key is being clear to your charges on which way you're going and why.

Benjamin Grimm Apr 13 2010 10:30 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Is Niese the fifth guy? Or is it Perez?

Ceetar Apr 13 2010 10:38 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Is Niese the fifth guy? Or is it Perez? Manuel loses count after 2. Niese (and Maine due to shoulder fatigue reasons) are the only two guys I'd consider skipping.

Benjamin Grimm Apr 13 2010 10:40 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

I'd much prefer to skip Perez than Niese, at least right now.

Swan Swan H Apr 13 2010 11:17 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Ceetar wrote: Benjamin Grimm wrote: Is Niese the fifth guy? Or is it Perez? Manuel loses count after 2 Ha! That's funny because....wait. It isn't funny.

Ashie62 Apr 13 2010 11:20 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Skip Ollie, Niese has skillz

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 13 2010 03:20 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Outside of Almost Everyday Johan, Niese's the only guy who doesn't fill my body cavity with nervous when I watch him pitch. It's a new, fresh feeling. Ollie? He gives me a not-so-fresh feeling.

Edgy DC Apr 13 2010 05:18 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Yeah, but you know better than to hate the familiar and put your faith in the new just because.

Fman99 Apr 13 2010 05:27 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Outside of Almost Everyday Johan, Niese's the only guy who doesn't fill my body cavity with nervous when I watch him pitch. It's a new, fresh feeling. Ollie? He gives me a not-so-fresh feeling. C'mon, let's go for a walk on the beach and talk about this in greater detail.

Vic Sage Apr 14 2010 09:28 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Jerry should skip Maine every 5th day...

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 14 2010 09:37 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Edgy DC wrote: Yeah, but you know better than to hate the familiar and put your faith in the new just because. Yeah, I know. But I'm just so f*cking sick of the familiar at this point. Fman99 wrote: C'mon, let's go for a walk on the beach and talk about this in greater detail. It's cool, I talked to my mom about it while walking through a meadow. I'm good.

Ashie62 Apr 14 2010 09:52 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

The Bullpen should have a very large dumpster marked 'recyclables"

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 13 2010 12:47 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Looking for a fun, boozy way to put yourself into a coma after a bunty, LOOGY-and-ROOGY-filled loss? Try the Jerry Manuel postgame press-conference drinking game, thanks to Anthony DeRosa. Jerry Manuel Postgame Presser drinking game : 1) No question 2) That's a good question 3) Uhhhhhhhh 4) We need to find 7:50 PM May 11th via TweetDeck Good thing this didn't occur to me last year-- after July, my liver would've been big enough to require a 40-man roster slot.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 23 2010 10:46 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Manuel on how he uses statistical data, via a text-to-movie app. My favorite part is the reaction shots.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 26 2010 11:09 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Courtesy of AA's Sam Page, the Jerry Manuel Decision-Making Flow Chart.

Ceetar May 26 2010 11:37 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. The Nieve stuff is priceless.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 26 2010 11:43 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Laugh. It feels better. Needs a little more bunting. But otherwise... yeah. The Nieve stuff and PH tap-dance are my favorite parts.

Ashie62 May 26 2010 01:03 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

That has me in stitches

Fman99 May 27 2010 06:18 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

The "Tagarashi/Kobayashi" thing keeps making me giggle.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jun 01 2010 01:31 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Teases. And while team brass was clearly unhappy after a four-game sweep in Florida May 13-16, sources have maintained the Mets have never been close to firing Manuel. By extension, then, they have not been close to promoting Bob Melvin from scout to manager. ... A person with direct knowledge of the Mets' inner workings said that no such conversations have taken place with Melvin. And for several weeks, multiple team sources have repeatedly insisted that the notion of an upcoming Melvin-for-Manuel swap is mere industry gossip.

Willets Point Jun 01 2010 02:32 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

If the Mets are serious about winning they will hire Marty Barrett to be the new Mets manager.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jun 01 2010 03:43 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Like the managerial chart, but a little less goofy, and more to the point.

Edgy DC Jun 02 2010 07:11 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

A quote yesterday from Jerry, something along the line of "We have a bunch of seventh-inning guys, but no eighth-inning guy right now," made me want to weep.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jun 21 2010 03:12 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

"I will not take [Takahashi] out of the rotation," Manuel said. The manager also closed another door on Maine. "I don't see [Maine] as a candidate for the bullpen," Manuel said. "We'll just have to make some tough decisions if we deem he is ready to join us and compete at the major-league level." ...Where does that leave Maine? "Pitch him on off days," Manuel said jokingly before the Mets lost 5-3 to the Yankees. Between the injury-hiding and public questioning of Manuel just after the 5-pitch yank job, Maine's not without fault in whatever rift there is between his manager and him. BUT given that Maine's done the rehab assignment, is still suffering from the spooky velocity loss, and is more or less crossing his fingers that his career isn't over... isn't the usual Jerry Youngman business a little... I don't know, distasteful?

Ceetar Jun 21 2010 03:22 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: "I will not take [Takahashi] out of the rotation," Manuel said. The manager also closed another door on Maine. "I don't see [Maine] as a candidate for the bullpen," Manuel said. "We'll just have to make some tough decisions if we deem he is ready to join us and compete at the major-league level." ...Where does that leave Maine? "Pitch him on off days," Manuel said jokingly before the Mets lost 5-3 to the Yankees. Between the injury-hiding and public questioning of Manuel just after the 5-pitch yank job, Maine's not without fault in whatever rift there is between his manager and him. BUT given that Maine's done the rehab assignment, is still suffering from the spooky velocity loss, and is more or less crossing his fingers that his career isn't over... isn't the usual Jerry Youngman business a little... I don't know, distasteful? It just strikes me as being stubborn about finding a way Maine can help the team if he's deemed healthy and competitive. In one breath he's questioning if he has the proper bullpen makeup, and on the other he's flat out refusing to think about if a guy could help him there.

Zvon Jun 21 2010 04:57 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: "I will not take [Takahashi] out of the rotation," Manuel said. The manager also closed another door on Maine. "I don't see [Maine] as a candidate for the bullpen," Manuel said. "We'll just have to make some tough decisions if we deem he is ready to join us and compete at the major-league level." ...Where does that leave Maine? "Pitch him on off days," Manuel said jokingly before the Mets lost 5-3 to the Yankees. Between the injury-hiding and public questioning of Manuel just after the 5-pitch yank job, Maine's not without fault in whatever rift there is between his manager and him. BUT given that Maine's done the rehab assignment, is still suffering from the spooky velocity loss, and is more or less crossing his fingers that his career isn't over... isn't the usual Jerry Youngman business a little... I don't know, distasteful? Might be in bad taste under the circumstances. I didn't think so. I found it funny in a black comedy kinda way. Ya gotta be able to laugh. Ya just gotta. What it does indicates to me is that whatever problem Jerry has with Maine, on a personal level, it continues to brew. Only Jerry could clear up exactly what that problem is. I think it's more than just what meets the eye and or ear of the public and the media.

Ashie62 Jun 21 2010 06:10 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Going on how Ron & Gary were talking... Maine has seriously pissed Jerry off. In the bullpen before Maine's last outing I'll guess he looked like crap and badgered Warthen & Manuel into giving him the ball. Jerry has probably seen this act before from Maine and decided to give Maine the ball anyway. In pulling him quickly Jerry was able to drop the hammer in the form of a big FU to and a possible trip to DFA land. In this case "enough is enough" for Jonboy.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jun 21 2010 08:04 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Zvon wrote: Might be in bad taste under the circumstances. I didn't think so. I found it funny in a black comedy kinda way. Ya gotta be able to laugh. Ya just gotta. What it does indicates to me is that whatever problem Jerry has with Maine, on a personal level, it continues to brew. Only Jerry could clear up exactly what that problem is. I think it's more than just what meets the eye and or ear of the public and the media. If, before a possible round of layoffs, I make a joke about my being fired, and it's a good joke, it's darkly funny. If, before a possible round of layoffs, my boss makes a joke about my being fired, even if it's a good joke... it isn't quite the same, is it?

Zvon Jun 21 2010 09:15 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Zvon wrote: Might be in bad taste under the circumstances. I didn't think so. I found it funny in a black comedy kinda way. Ya gotta be able to laugh. Ya just gotta. What it does indicates to me is that whatever problem Jerry has with Maine, on a personal level, it continues to brew. Only Jerry could clear up exactly what that problem is. I think it's more than just what meets the eye and or ear of the public and the media. If, before a possible round of layoffs, I make a joke about my being fired, and it's a good joke, it's darkly funny. If, before a possible round of layoffs, my boss makes a joke about my being fired, even if it's a good joke... it isn't quite the same, is it? He's the boss. Call it a perk,...he gets to do that. And it's not like his job isn't in jeopardy. That makes it even funnier to me. I liked Bobby V for the way he misdirected attention while keeping his team focused. I like Jerry M for the way he uses humor to defuse tense situations. Can he keep the Mets focused over the long haul? I'm not sure, but until he does something really wrong, he has my trust.

Ashie62 Jun 22 2010 05:40 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

"Jerry Manuel Coin Day" I like it.

Edgy DC Jun 22 2010 07:12 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

This I know: if someone can pitch effectively, there's always room for him.

Edgy DC Jun 22 2010 08:37 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

I just had my performance evaluation and, as I walked out of my boss's office, my colleague gave me a quizzical look. I felt like Jerry Manuel and grinned at her as if to say, "Well, I'm still here." I get back to my desk and find an e-mail from "Mr. Shea Stadium" offering me Jerry Manuel's office door for only $1,000. Sweet!

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jun 22 2010 08:45 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010 Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 22 2010 12:54 PM

That's beautiful. On my first attended game of the year this year, I discovered that the folks at Citi have been pitching game-used gear in the concourses near the stadium store, just off the Rotunda; among said gear are a significant handful of coaches' jerseys... and Manuel jerseys. I was thisclose to splurging on one, just so I could wear it on the odd Office Cleanup Day and walk around ordering people to bunt.

Zvon Jun 22 2010 12:25 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

I agree that pitching arms are always in need. I also agree that Jerrys bunting bidness borders on obsession. Sitting here at the PC, call it a perk.....I get to do that.

Edgy DC Jul 19 2010 09:03 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

I'm re-starting the watch.

Ceetar Jul 19 2010 09:07 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Edgy DC wrote: I'm re-starting the watch. why bother, since it seems obvious Jeff an Omar aren't wearing one. Honestly, this team, all around, from Pelfrey and his 8 days rest and stiff neck, to Reyes and Castillo and Beltran, all look unprepared to actually play baseball. With the position the Mets are in, at this point in this season, that's just criminal.

Edgy DC Jul 19 2010 09:19 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

A lot of things seem obvious to you that are real elusive to mee.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 19 2010 09:22 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

See, if they fall out of the race here, it's obvious that it's because of injuries. When they were playing well earlier? Manuel was pushing the right buttons. Now, he's a victim. 'Cause, y'know, he has absolutely nothing to do with determining the playing patterns/recovery schedule of his personnel.

Ceetar Jul 19 2010 09:48 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Edgy DC wrote: A lot of things seem obvious to you that are real elusive to mee. You wouldn't be shocked to actually wake up tomorrow and find Omar or Jeff had actually fired someone?

Edgy DC Jul 19 2010 09:50 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Of course not. It happens every day.

Ceetar Jul 19 2010 10:01 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Edgy DC wrote: Of course not. It happens every day. think they'll wait for the game to end? will the game end?

Edgy DC Jul 19 2010 10:13 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

I'm not sure what I'm being charged with here, officer, so I'll plead the fifth.

Ceetar Jul 19 2010 10:17 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Edgy DC wrote: I'm not sure what I'm being charged with here, officer, so I'll plead the fifth. August fifth? I hope they don't wait that long to fire him..

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 25 2010 09:51 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Oh, really, doctor? The Mets have lost 14- and 13-inning games in a four-day span on the road trip without their most expensive reliever ever appearing. But don’t look for any change to their philosophy. Unless the Mets have a lead in extra innings on the road, Francisco Rodriguez likely will remain unused. “Pretty hard and fast,” pitching coach Dan Warthen said about the Mets’ adherence to the philosophy. “There’s minute exceptions. I think it’s standard across baseball.” K-Rod has been known to grouse about usage, but the closer suggested Saturday he’s merely an employee who works when called upon. “My philosophy is to get people out when I come in. That’s my philosophy,” K-Rod said. “Every time they call out there, I’ve got to be ready for it.” Said Jerry Manuel about Saturday’s non-use of K-Rod: “I was going to go to him if we got the lead.” Manuel allowed that there might have come a point when Rodriguez had warmed up too many times and had to enter the game no matter the circumstances because after that he would have been burned out. “If I felt that he needed to warm up and go in, then we would have sent him in with a tie game,” the manager said.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 25 2010 10:10 AM Re: JerryWorld 2010

So, Dan's as dumb as Jerry. Good to know.

Ashie62 Jul 25 2010 01:28 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Well, the Jets are supposed to be good.

Edgy DC Jul 25 2010 02:12 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Benjamin Grimm wrote: So, Dan's as dumb as Jerry. Well, he's as wrong as Jerry. That's for certain. How many times does this strategy have to fail? Standard across baseball?!

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 25 2010 02:37 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

And I love that "everybody does it" is the defense. Because that's how championships are won, and great teams are built: doing everything the exact same way that most everybody does "it."

Rockin' Doc Jul 25 2010 02:54 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

It shows that the Mets on field management team definitely doesn't think outside the box. I just wonder how much thinking they actually do at all.

The Second Spitter Jul 25 2010 06:33 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Where nepotism is rife throughout an organization, failure is inevitable.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 25 2010 06:35 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

metsblog sez omar isn't guaranteeing staff will all be at work on tues.zzz

metirish Jul 25 2010 06:39 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Gotta keep Chip Hale, the rest can go.

Edgy DC Jul 25 2010 07:05 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

The Second Spitter wrote: Where nepotism is rife throughout an organization, failure is inevitable. I certainly wouldn't go there.

Ceetar Jul 25 2010 07:09 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

metirish wrote: Gotta keep Chip Hale, the rest can go. I like Razor Shines.

The Second Spitter Jul 25 2010 07:40 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Edgy DC wrote: The Second Spitter wrote: Where nepotism is rife throughout an organization, failure is inevitable. I certainly wouldn't go there. May I respectfully ask why?

Edgy DC Jul 25 2010 08:00 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Yes. Go ahead. Oh, I see you actuallly are asking. Because I don't think nepotism is rife in the organization. And because the Yankees are world champions.

The Second Spitter Jul 25 2010 08:41 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Mate, I was only trying to be polite -- didn't think it warranted an acerbic response.

Ashie62 Jul 25 2010 08:45 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010 Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 25 2010 09:42 PM

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: metsblog sez omar isn't guaranteeing staff will all be at work on tues.zzz I would can Manuel, Warthen and Hojo..now

Edgy DC Jul 25 2010 09:00 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Sorry. I didn't mean to be acerbic. Only to play. Gotta find a way to have fun even as the storm clouds hover. Wait a minute... they can fire Randolph again?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 25 2010 09:09 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

For emphasis.

Edgy DC Jul 25 2010 09:16 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Not for nothing, but with the Cubs job opening this offseason, plus quite possibly the dream job in LA, right now may be the last best hope to haul in BV for a second tenure.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 25 2010 09:40 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010

Indeed.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 25 2010 10:10 PM Re: JerryWorld 2010