Master Index of Archived Threads


The Starting Rotation

Nymr83 Apr 13 2010 08:15 PM

I don't think John Maine will be here much longer. he looks like garbage out there throwing 85 miles an hour and without control. I'm almost as sour on him now as I am on Perez (ok not really). Santana is what he is, the Mets won't win without him at least in the immediate future. Niese is young and has potential and I think Pelfrey is clearly miles ahead of Perez/Maine right now. Perez looks terrible, and its nothing new. I'd have no problem throwing him overboard and letting whoever the hottest hand in AAA is get some starts. I really don't think 30 starts divided up among the like of Parnell, Figueroa, etc would be worse than Perez. Maine looks bad. Either he hasn't really recovered from his last injury or... well I don't see an "or" here, his velocity is gone. I'm not ready to give up yet but the Mets need to be on alert with him and ready to replace him. This team needs starting pitching pretty damn badly.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 13 2010 08:22 PM Re: The Starting Rotation

REMINDER: Figueroa's a Phil. The Mets waived him in favor of keeping Sean Green (previously working out a new pitching motion/currently DLed) and Jenrry Mejia (currently pitching low-leverage, offspeed-pitch-free innings) on the major-league roster.

Nymr83 Apr 13 2010 08:36 PM Re: The Starting Rotation

John Cougar Lunchbucket Apr 13 2010 08:42 PM Re: The Starting Rotation

Maine's sucked for a good year solid now. He may never get his velocity back, and if anything I have less faith in him regaining his junk than Perez, but they both of course could be lost. Stop wasting your tears on Figueroa. Easy come easy go.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 13 2010 08:48 PM Re: The Starting Rotation

YOU DO NOT TELL ME HOW TO FEEL ABOUT MY FIGGY!

Fman99 Apr 13 2010 08:52 PM Re: The Starting Rotation

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: YOU DO NOT TELL ME HOW TO FEEL ABOUT MY FIGGY! BOC, because there's no such thing as a "bullet of stupidly awesome."

Gwreck Apr 13 2010 09:20 PM Re: The Starting Rotation

I'd have far less concern about Figueroa if the Mets were keeping Meija in the minors and using him as a starter with an eye towards bringing him up in the second half of the year. I could see one more start for Maine but he should be looking over his shoulder for Pat Misch.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 14 2010 12:18 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

You might see more starts for the guy than Field-Jefe can, as per the Ledger's Brian Costa: Manuel said Maine's rotation spot could be in jeopardy. They'll discuss it further. Lack of velocity a big concern. #nym about 2 hours ago via UberTwitter And is "throwing strikes" this year's "hit it the opposite way?" According to Adam Rubin, Mr. Warthen sees it that way. "We don’t want them to do that, but we’re so in tune to not walking people, maybe we are trying to not let it go like we’re capable of doing," Warthen said.

Mex17 Apr 14 2010 05:07 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

Even if Mejia was starting in AA right now, he would not be ready to start for the Mets until at least the middle of next season. He needs a full year in AA and at least half a season in AAA. This, of course, makes it all the more criminal to have him in the major league bullpen right now. Cutting Figueroa with the rotation in this much flux was INSANELY criminal!!

Edgy DC Apr 14 2010 06:19 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

It's... malfecant.

TransMonk Apr 14 2010 06:26 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

Figgy was never an answer...only a stop-gap. And you can't plug a hole in a dam with your finger. Maine and Perez are awful and I don't have any cahnfidence in them getting any better. If youngsters/upstarts are available to fill in, then I'd rather watch them lose.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Apr 14 2010 07:01 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

Mex17 wrote: Even if Mejia was starting in AA right now, he would not be ready to start for the Mets until at least the middle of next season. He needs a full year in AA and at least half a season in AAA. I don't buy this. He'd probably get hammered some nights (all young pitchers do) but I wouldn't hesitate to swap Maine and Mejia's roles next time though. The Mets'll prolly take pains to make a show of "stretching him out" for a few weeks in the minors or whatever, but it has to be up there with the best options on fixing this mess.

metsguyinmichigan Apr 14 2010 07:16 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

It's not all the rotation. We're not going to win a whole lot of games scoring only 3 and 2 runs.

Ceetar Apr 14 2010 07:42 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

You might see more starts for the guy than Field-Jefe can, as per the Ledger's Brian Costa: Manuel said Maine's rotation spot could be in jeopardy. They'll discuss it further. Lack of velocity a big concern. #nym about 2 hours ago via UberTwitter And is "throwing strikes" this year's "hit it the opposite way?" According to Adam Rubin, Mr. Warthen sees it that way. "We don’t want them to do that, but we’re so in tune to not walking people, maybe we are trying to not let it go like we’re capable of doing," Warthen said. It's curious. (Warthen's a bum. I see nothing I like from him.) I said that during the spring that maybe this insistance on "DONT WALK ANYBODY!" was causing the pitchers to start missing over the plate instead of off it (especially Perez). So HR instead of Ball. Silly. Also, when you're trying to pinpoint control, from my understanding, you tend ot not quite let it rip as hard. Maybe that's why the velocity is down? Perez's wasn't even a shoulder injury (and he wasn't qutie as OMG RELEASE HIM bad in 2008. Maine had a 4-1 2.75 ERA last May. so somewhere, the talent is there. his last two starts of last year he was throwing 91-92 (although in his second to las start his changeup/slider was like 85-86, which was too fast. He had that around 82 last night) So where'd that velocity go, if he could throw it post-surgery? Is it an arm strength thing? just needs to build it up to get that hard? is it this silly no walks thing that seems to be the only thing Warthen knows? something else? And who knows how to fix it ? (Certainly not the analysts, radio hosts, and beat writers that will tell us what his velocity means and waht we should do abuot it)

Edgy DC Apr 14 2010 07:53 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

Ceetar wrote: It's curious. (Warthen's a bum. I see nothing I like from him.) I said that during the spring that maybe this insistance on "DONT WALK ANYBODY!" was causing the pitchers to start missing over the plate instead of off it (especially Perez). So HR instead of Ball. Silly. Well, the only guy who hit a homerun yesterday was Smith, but nine Rockie batters walked, so I don't think it's particularly silly to want to address that sort of behavior.

Ceetar Apr 14 2010 07:56 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

Edgy DC wrote: Ceetar wrote: It's curious. (Warthen's a bum. I see nothing I like from him.) I said that during the spring that maybe this insistance on "DONT WALK ANYBODY!" was causing the pitchers to start missing over the plate instead of off it (especially Perez). So HR instead of Ball. Silly. Well, the only guy who hit a homerun yesterday was Smith, but nine Rockie batters walked, so I don't think it's particularly silly to want to address that sort of behavior. Not silly to address it, no. But fixing it isn't as simple as saying "Don't do it". You have to teach more about setting up hitters, and when throwing out of the strikezone is acceptable. The walks yesterday were partly Nieve not having it at all, and part Maine having no confidence in his fastball so trying to paint corners and missing.

Ceetar Apr 14 2010 07:57 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

Conversely, pitching to contact is not the answer either. Even for Pelfrey. Even at Citi Field.

metirish Apr 14 2010 08:00 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

Maine and Perez have suffered from not being under the tutelage of Peterson.

Edgy DC Apr 14 2010 08:09 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

I don't think it's ever true that because one part of pitching (or hitting) is mentioned as a priority, the rest of the instruction has been forsaken. But your post certainly suggested that setting that priority has been counterproductive, when it certainly has not. Let's not over-react to nothing here. It's a good priority. George Bamberger was fanatical about throwing strikes, getting ahead of hitters, and making sure the homers you give up are solo shots, and he did pretty well with his pitchers. He'd get so frustrated with the young Met pitchers in his care that he'd take the mound himself at 60 years old with 60 pounds of beergut and zip strikes in there to show them how easy it was.

Ceetar Apr 14 2010 08:27 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

Edgy DC wrote: I don't think it's ever true that because one part of pitching (or hitting) is mentioned as a priority, the rest of the instruction has been forsaken. But your post certainly suggested that setting that priority has been counterproductive, when it certainly has not. The quote above suggests that even Warthen thinks that could be the case. supposedly they're going to have dialogue, after two games, about him staying in the rotation. This suggests to me that they just don't know what to do. Which is criminal. It's Warthen's job to know. He should be coming out and saying "We're going to work on getting his fastball down in the zone." "We need to work on hitting the inside corner more against right hand hitters." "We need to explore our options for what to throw to get a strikeout." Maine's comments suggest he seems lost. he mentions getting the fastball down more, but it sounds to me like he's just not sure what the gameplan is and how he's not happy with how/where he's throwing (well duh). And, like the confidence boosters Manuel and Warthen are, they're not tellling him we're going to work on this or that. They're talking about taking him out of the rotation instead of how to keep him in it. And this is what I've been complaining about with this team for a while. They're also focusing on eliminating the bad, but not on fixing it.

Edgy DC Apr 14 2010 08:37 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

You know, that's the second indictment of "criminality" in this thread. Let's get a bit of perspective. Here's a poorly kept secret: nobody knows. Arms are mysterious things and the key to making success throwing balls is elusive. Some guys know more than others, then suddenly they know less. On some issues, a good pitching coach has core values that apply across the board; on others, he has to take it on a case-by-case basis. Pitcher by pitcher, game by game. If you read the entirety of that post, Warthan is all over the place, because he doesn't quite know. When a guy is going bad, a lot of things can be wrong, and it takes some work to figure out what is wrong and what (if anything, and maybe there isn't anything) can be done to correct it. If he had the knowledge and the magic and the whatever to make Maine go out there and not fail, and Maine failed anyway, is that more comforting? Less criminal? Warthan may not be the best guy to run this staff. He most probably isn't. But to take that meandering quote as evidence of anything is forcing things to fit where there is no pattern --- especially when you're arguing that Warthan's strategy is going to lead to fewer walks but more homers and that's the exact opposite of what happened.

MFS62 Apr 14 2010 08:39 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

Well, if Maine's position in the rotation is in trouble, how about a three way swap? 1) Mejia hasn't been pitching in sugnificant game spots, so why not move Maine into those spots? It will give him a chance to work out his non-stuff problems (e,g,- location) and give the team a chance to monitor his velocity up close and personal. 2) Send down Mejia to AAA or AA and start stretching out his innings so he can start this year. 3) Who replaces Maine in the rotation? Bring up Bobby Parnell. If he doesn't go into the rotation, then he goes to the bullpen with Nieve moving into the rotation. I know Jerry likes to have a bullpen that can protect late inning leads. But if the starters are getting murdered, there aren't too many late inning leads to protect, anyhow. Hey, its worth a shot. Later

Edgy DC Apr 14 2010 08:44 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

I don't think Parnell is going to start again (maybe ever), but the four way swap is fine to me. I'm all for it. The problem with hoping the Mets are going to do it is that changing their plans and sending down Mejia to start smells too much of failure to think that they are going to brave the shitstorm that will erupt.

Ceetar Apr 14 2010 08:52 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

Edgy DC wrote: If you read the entirety of that post, Warthan is all over the place, because he doesn't quite know. It's a results business. If Warthen doesn't know, hasn't known for a while, then why keep him? Sure, maybe no one knows. It's certainly possible. But it seems pretty clear that we know that he doesn't know. So try someone else. do the research. hire smart people. It's always hard to truly evaluate this stuff, because we really don't know what conversations Maine and Warthen have between themselves, and how much value they have. Regardless, I don't think Warthen should be coming out and babbling like he has no idea what to do. This team puts forth a front of having no clue about any plan or long term goals, and whether that's true or not, some confidence would befit this team. At least Maine didn't storm back into the clubhouse. He sat down and talked with Warthen, first thing. (Although I would've sent him back out there at that point. I'm wondering if building up his arm strength and facing more batters in general would be beneficial) At least have him top 100. Just a thought.

Edgy DC Apr 14 2010 08:56 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

Ceetar wrote: Edgy DC wrote: If you read the entirety of that post, Warthan is all over the place, because he doesn't quite know. It's a results business. If Warthen doesn't know, hasn't known for a while, then why keep him? Because the results last year were perhaps not demonstrably a product of Warthan's ken. The entire rotation went down with injuries. Maybe that's all his fault. I really don't know. I'm not saying he's right. I'm saying what you're looking for in that quote as evidence against him is not there. Do you think the Orioles will let us send a vet or two down for the old Norfolk Cure?

Ceetar Apr 14 2010 09:02 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

Edgy DC wrote: Do you think the Orioles will let us send a vet or two down for the old Norfolk Cure? Aren't the Orioles like 1-9? We could send 'em south, but they might never make it past Maryland. I'm not using the quote as any proof of anything, but there just seem to be more and more worrysome signs that worry me, even if one or two don't really mean much.

Edgy DC Apr 14 2010 09:06 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

That's fair. But the main sign, of course, is 2-5.

Ashie62 Apr 14 2010 09:10 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

Everything said so far is fair. The pitching should have been addressed in the off season, not between now and July. We all watched Maine pitch. In my opinion his arm is shot. Pitching & defense win.

smg58 Apr 14 2010 09:18 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

The Mets seemed to be very cautious with Maine in the pre-season (i.e., not stretching him out as quickly as the others), so they had an inclination he wasn't all the way back. Then why force it? Give Maine some time in AAA. We have plenty of options that are, at worst, no less viable than he is right now (and we had an additional one in ST that we were comfortable giving away to the Phillies). He'd have to clear waivers, but at $3.3M I would lose no sleep if somebody claimed him (which I seriously doubt would happen). What was frustrating to me last night was that Maine got some nice strikeouts, and some better defense on the part of Maine himself and our corner infielders would have kept the Mets in the game.

Edgy DC Apr 14 2010 09:19 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

Sure, but we'd lose sleep if somebody claimed him and he excelled, which may happen, so we might have to see this thing through for a little bit, as painful as they might be.

Ceetar Apr 14 2010 09:21 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

smg58 wrote: The Mets seemed to be very cautious with Maine in the pre-season (i.e., not stretching him out as quickly as the others), so they had an inclination he wasn't all the way back. Then why force it? Give Maine some time in AAA. We have plenty of options that are, at worst, no less viable than he is right now (and we had an additional one in ST that we were comfortable giving away to the Phillies). He'd have to clear waivers, but at $3.3M I would lose no sleep if somebody claimed him (which I seriously doubt would happen). What was frustrating to me last night was that Maine got some nice strikeouts, and some better defense on the part of Maine himself and our corner infielders would have kept the Mets in the game. well, Murphy will hopefully be back soon and possibly Davis if that doesn't work. Defense at first will be better. and if Maine chilled out a bit maybe makes that play. I noticed that too, with them going easy on Maine, but he pitched healthily at the end of last season, so I'm not sure why. I really think getting his arm strength up would be more beneficial then pushing it past it's comfort level every start until it's up there.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Apr 14 2010 09:27 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

I want to attribute most of what's been ailing the Mets pitchers to their physical abilities -- obviously velocity is an issue with Ollie, Maine and maybe Santana. But what's really irritated me about all the performances, and I know its a vague thing, is the seeming lack of concentration; the inability to bear down and finish the job. No shame in Helton going opposite field and punching an 0-2 pitch through the hole for a 2-out single; it's the 4-pitch walk to Tulo that follows and the first pitch double that follows that. Just, grrr.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 14 2010 09:35 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

If you read the entirety of that post, Warthan is all over the place, because he doesn't quite know. It's a results business. If Warthen doesn't know, hasn't known for a while, then why keep him? Sure, maybe no one knows. It's certainly possible. But it seems pretty clear that we know that he doesn't know. So try someone else. do the research. hire smart people. I wonder whether Warthen isn't just expressing bewilderment (without expressing actual, explicit bewilderment), but subtly distancing himself a bit from something Manuel prominently stood behind at ST's outset. Backing away from the condemned? If so... then that's borderline CRIMINAL. At least Maine didn't storm back into the clubhouse. He sat down and talked with Warthen, first thing. (Although I would've sent him back out there at that point. I'm wondering if building up his arm strength and facing more batters in general would be beneficial) At least have him top 100. Just a thought. I don't get the "get him out of there" mentality regarding someone who's just given up 7-8 runs early on. I mean, hell-- get Maine some work, have him eat some innings (or one more inning, anyway). What's served by pulling him there, after 70-75 pitches, with two more potentially-bullpen-taxing games in Colorado left? 3) Who replaces Maine in the rotation? Bring up Bobby Parnell. If he doesn't go into the rotation, then he goes to the bullpen with Nieve moving into the rotation. I know Jerry likes to have a bullpen that can protect late inning leads. But if the starters are getting murdered, there aren't too many late inning leads to protect, anyhow. Also a possibility: "With my lack of platoon split, and super control, Rockies no stand no chance now!"

Ceetar Apr 14 2010 09:36 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: No shame in Helton going opposite field and punching an 0-2 pitch through the hole for a 2-out single; it's the 4-pitch walk to Tulo that follows and the first pitch double that follows that. Just, grrr. This is where a pitching coach, a captain, a catcher should walk out to the mound and try to get him focused. Or he should slap himself into alertness and focus.

Edgy DC Apr 14 2010 09:41 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: I wonder whether Warthen isn't just expressing bewilderment (without expressing actual, explicit bewilderment), but subtly distancing himself a bit from something Manuel prominently stood behind at ST's outset. Backing away from the condemned? If so... then that's borderline CRIMINAL. Your conspiracy theories are getting more complex.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 14 2010 09:47 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

Edgy DC wrote: LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: I wonder whether Warthen isn't just expressing bewilderment (without expressing actual, explicit bewilderment), but subtly distancing himself a bit from something Manuel prominently stood behind at ST's outset. Backing away from the condemned? If so... then that's borderline CRIMINAL. Your conspiracy theories are getting more complex. Aren't you curious, Edge? I'm curious. I'm very curious. Are you curious? There's something happening out here, man. You know something, man? I know something you that you don't know. That's right, Edge. The man is clear in his mind, but his soul is mad. Oh, yeah. He's dying, I think. Freddy hates all this. He hates it! But the man's a... He reads poetry out loud, all right. And a voice...he likes you because you're still alive. He's got "plans" for you. No, I'm not gonna help you. You're gonna help him, man. You're gonna help him. I mean, what are they gonna say when he's gone? 'Cause he dies when it dies, when it dies, he dies! What are they gonna say about him? He was a kind man to veterans? He was a wise man for getting CitiField done? He had plans for a HOF? He had wisdom? Buuuuullshit, man! And am I gonna be the one that's gonna set them straight? Look at me! Look at me! Wrong!

Edgy DC Apr 14 2010 09:53 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

Who sent you to me? How do you know my name? HOW DO YOU KNOW MY NAME?!

TransMonk Apr 14 2010 09:55 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

You can count me in for swapping Takahashi and Maine. I'd give Perez a start or two more as he hasn't been as horrible as Maine.

Ashie62 Apr 14 2010 10:02 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

Costa today on Maine and the rotation: DENVER -- Think about how John Maine looked against the Rockies Tuesday night. Think about how his fastball looked. Then think about how it would look Sunday night against Albert Pujols, Matt Holliday and the Cardinals on national television. It has the potential to be a pretty ugly sight, and you might not see it at all. Maine’s rotation spot is in jeopardy after he gave up eight runs in three innings in Tuesday’s 11-3 loss to the Rockies. He has made only two starts, but the results have been unsettling both for him and the Mets. He has a 13.50 ERA, and that’s not even as troubling as the numbers on the radar gun. Now, manager Jerry Manuel said the team will consider its options. When asked after the game whether Maine is in danger of losing his spot in the rotation, Manuel said, “I think those things we have to talk about. Right now, right after this game, you have to kind of sleep on that and see how you feel tomorrow, and hopefully he feels okay. But you have to have dialogue about it. That’s just the business that we’re in.” The problem is, there aren’t any good options for the Mets, at least not internally. They could move either Fernando Nieve or Hisanori Takahashi from the bullpen to the rotation, but that would weaken an already shaky bullpen, and neither of them are stretched out for starting duty. With Nelson Figueroa now a Phillie, that leaves Pat Misch as the likely best option at Triple-A Buffalo. And, really, if Pat Misch has to save the day -- two weeks into the season, no less -- the Mets are in for a long summer. Their best hope is for Maine to turn things around. Health does not appear to be a concern for Maine, who has dealt with shoulder injuries the last two years. But his velocity, or lack thereof, is a big concern. Maine topped out at 90mph Tuesday, a tad better than in his first start but still way down from the mid-90s stuff he had before the shoulder injuries. “Historically he’s been able to get by with being able to miss location and have a little fly ball or something like that because he had a little extra on it,” Manuel said. “But right now that’s not the case.” Maine said he can be effective with lower velocity, but he has to keep the ball down in the strike zone much more than he did three years ago. “You don’t have to throw 95,” Maine said. “You just have to get the ball down, and I haven’t done that.” Maine has also relied more on his off-speed pitches, but that can only compensate so much for a fastball lacking both in velocity and movement. “When you’re working behind in counts and you have to throw that fastball, these hitters are going to be jumping all over it,” catcher Rod Barajas said. “It’s hard to get these guys out when the counts are 2-0, 3-1. You want to work ahead. You want to be able to get ahead of the count and make these guys hit your pitch, and right now that’s just not happening with John.”

Ashie62 Apr 14 2010 10:05 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

TransMonk wrote: You can count me in for swapping Takahashi and Maine. I'd give Perez a start or two more as he hasn't been as horrible as Maine. I look at your avatar and just wish he was here as he does know.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 14 2010 10:06 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

“You don’t have to throw 95,” Maine said. “You just have to get the ball down, and I haven’t done that.” You do if you throw a changeup in the mid-80s and a slider that is only intermittently controllable.

MFS62 Apr 14 2010 10:21 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: But what's really irritated me about all the performances, and I know its a vague thing, is the seeming lack of concentration; the inability to bear down and finish the job. From what was said about Santos' ability to handle a staff, I had expected that would be corrected with the new experienced major league receivers this year. I'm willing to give them some time to get to feel comfortable one another's styles. Later

TransMonk Apr 14 2010 10:23 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

I had forgotten that Maine's next scheduled start is the Mets' first national TV appearance of the season. Ouch!

Ceetar Apr 14 2010 10:27 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

TransMonk wrote: I had forgotten that Maine's next scheduled start is the Mets' first national TV appearance of the season. Ouch! Fuels the conspiracy theory for sure there.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Apr 14 2010 10:33 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

MFS62 wrote: John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: But what's really irritated me about all the performances, and I know its a vague thing, is the seeming lack of concentration; the inability to bear down and finish the job. From what was said about Santos' ability to handle a staff, I had expected that would be corrected with the new experienced major league receivers this year. I'm willing to give them some time to get to feel comfortable one another's styles. Later I just sort of see it as symptomatic of the recent vintage Jerrymets -- they're just not that into the moment, it seems.

TransMonk Apr 14 2010 10:39 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

I don't think the Mets have played any inspired stretches of baseball since 09/12/2007. OE: added "...stretches of..."

smg58 Apr 14 2010 10:48 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I want to attribute most of what's been ailing the Mets pitchers to their physical abilities -- obviously velocity is an issue with Ollie, Maine and maybe Santana. But what's really irritated me about all the performances, and I know its a vague thing, is the seeming lack of concentration; the inability to bear down and finish the job. No shame in Helton going opposite field and punching an 0-2 pitch through the hole for a 2-out single; it's the 4-pitch walk to Tulo that follows and the first pitch double that follows that. Just, grrr. I agree. Like I said before, there were a few instances where Maine looked good yesterday. But he dealt with adversity about as poorly as you can.

Ceetar Apr 14 2010 11:50 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

smg58 wrote: I agree. Like I said before, there were a few instances where Maine looked good yesterday. But he dealt with adversity about as poorly as you can. Maine's always been a bit of a headcase and too hard on himself. (Murphy too) Someone needs to smack 'em around a bit, tell him to relax, get laid, something like that. Apparently going out to a Nuggets game doesn't count. (Apparently most of the team did that Monday night. no idea if Maine did)

metirish Apr 14 2010 12:48 PM Re: The Starting Rotation

For all that ails Maine don't miss your spots here John.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 14 2010 12:55 PM Re: The Starting Rotation

Only a real fan paints herself in team colors. Did she paint something blue, too?

Ashie62 Apr 14 2010 01:14 PM Re: The Starting Rotation

metirish wrote: For all that ails Maine don't miss your spots here John. She will be appearing at Lookers on Rt22 $50 a lap dance

metirish Apr 14 2010 01:16 PM Re: The Starting Rotation

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Only a real fan paints herself in team colors. Did she paint something blue, too? She's not that orange...LOL

metirish Apr 14 2010 02:22 PM Re: The Starting Rotation

Meanwhile over in the Lubyanka building David Lennon in a secret chat today tossed Dillon Gee as a possible name for the rotation, gives May 15th as the over-under on Jerry., thinks Maine is headed for the DL and not the gulags as some would have it. Oh and this Ryan: With Jacobs and Smithtown's Own being such abject failures -- as expected -- any thoughts on bringing Carter up? I think he'll get a shot at some point, but let's be clear on this - he is a terrible defender, so I'm not sure where you plan on having him play. Doesn't think the Wilpons would rehire Bobby V, noting else great in there.

metirish Apr 14 2010 03:22 PM Re: The Starting Rotation

Jerry on the radio saying that Maine gets another start but if he sees the same thing then serious dialoge will ensue to see what happens, " three is my thing, three is a number for everyone".

Ashie62 Apr 14 2010 03:56 PM Re: The Starting Rotation

I agree with the DL part on Maine. That shoulder has been to hell & back. His career is in Jeopardy

bmfc1 Apr 14 2010 03:58 PM Re: The Starting Rotation

Like three sacrifice bunts each game.

metirish Apr 15 2010 07:06 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

Joel Pineiro reflects on New York Mets' lackluster and 'weird' offseason pursuit So Angels righthander Joel Pineiro threw a gem in the Bronx Wednesday, and the kicker, of course, is that it surely left Mets fans, not Yankees fans, feeling sick to their stomachs. Such is the state of baseball in New York these days. The Yankees simply tip their caps to Pineiro after Wednesday's 5-3 loss and likely make someone pay for it Thursday, while the floundering Mets already look foolish for refusing to sign a pitcher like him during the winter. Even if you had reservations, as I admittedly did, about what Pineiro might be without Cardinals pitching coach/miracle worker Dave Duncan, he was arguably the second-best free agent pitcher on the market after John Lackey. At the very least, Pineiro was obviously a much-needed upgrade for the Mets' staff. And baseball people whispered during the winter that he was GM Omar Minaya's No. 1 target among pitchers. So what happened? That's what Pineiro would like to know. It seems clearer than ever from hearing his version of events that Mets ownership simply wouldn't let Minaya spend the money it took - two years, $16 million - for the Angels to get a deal done. Pineiro said in November he considered the Mets to be "the front-runners" to sign him. Much of that feeling was based on what he was hearing from his friend and neighbor in Miami, Alex Cora, that the Mets had every intention of signing him. Considering that Cora has a strong relationship with Minaya, suffice to say it was solid information. "Alex was telling me (it was going to happen)," Pineiro said Wednesday. "I was like, 'all right, I'm just waiting for that good thing to happen, and I'm ready to go.' "But it never came." Pineiro indicated that the Mets stayed in contact with his agent throughout the winter, but didn't make any real move to sign him until the Angels got involved in mid-January. Even then all indications are the Mets knew their two-year, $15 million offer wasn't going to be enough, and at that point, it may well have been for the sake of appearance. "Is it that the Mets wouldn't go the extra mile?" I asked Pineiro. "Exactly," he said. "It was a business decision, I guess. They had their guys, already." They had their guys, all right. The Mets put the word out that they weren't going to overpay for pitchers that were no better than John Maine, Mike Pelfrey and Oliver Perez. How's that working out so far? Maine can't get anybody out and, meanwhile, here was Pineiro, dominating the Yankees over seven innings, striking out Alex Rodriguez three times along the way. He allowed one run on five hits, while racking up seven strikeouts and issuing not a single walk. In other words, his signature sinkerball apparently works nicely without Duncan, after all. Indeed, Pineiro said there was no magic to him going 15-12 with a 3.49 ERA last season, and after hearing all the Duncan talk during the winter, he is determined to prove it. "Dave Duncan got me to throw my sinker," Pineiro said. "To have faith, to trust it and not be afraid to throw it. But he didn't change my mechanics. He didn't change how I pitch. "That was the main thing I heard, 'he's a Duncan project,' but I have confidence in myself, knowing that I have this pitch now, and I could go out and make quality starts for whatever team I was with. I feel strong-minded about that." If anything, it seems Duncan restored the confidence Pineiro had as a young pitcher with the Mariners several years ago, when he was being touted as a rising star after going a combined 30-18 in 2002-03. Somehow he lost his way for a few years, lost command of his nasty sinker, but at age 31 he looks as if he could go a long way toward replacing the departed Lackey for the Angels. He's not an ace, but he'd sure fit nicely as behind Johan Santana in the Mets' rotation. Pineiro shrugged at the idea Wednesday. He said he's happy to be an Angel, but seems clear he thought he was going to be a Met. "I thank them for their interest," he said. "But it was just weird." The way things are going, weird surely wouldn't be the word Mets fans would choose. jharper@nydailynews.com Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseb ... z0lAq00drT

John Cougar Lunchbucket Apr 15 2010 07:22 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

HahnSolo Apr 15 2010 07:41 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

Nothing Piniero said there is really all that upsetting. Not much we didn't know or expect. Leave it to Harper though to find a negative Mets spin for his column.

Frayed Knot Apr 15 2010 07:42 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

Egg-Zactly. Harper leaves himself enough wiggle room to virtually assure that he'd be writing the exact opposite column had Piniero signed here and not started well while also asking us to buy the notion that Omar funnels all his off-season plans through the backup short-stop.

bmfc1 Apr 15 2010 08:00 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

Two ways to look at Piniero's comments--and they aren't mutually exclusive: If Piniero really wanted to be a Met/stay in the NL/play on the same team as Cora, then a million dollars, in context obviously, shouldn't have swayed him to do the opposite. The Mets should have come up with the million. They had a million to take a risk on Escobar, to pay Matthews, to sign Cora, to sign Tatis, so while they were able to throw a million here and there to risks and possibly undervalued players, they could have taken a million and given it to a surer thing (unless they truly believed that Maine/Pelfrey were as good as Piniero). One thing is clear: Harper's a hack.

Ashie62 Apr 15 2010 08:45 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

Frayed Knot wrote: Egg-Zactly. Harper leaves himself enough wiggle room to virtually assure that he'd be writing the exact opposite column had Piniero signed here and not started well while also asking us to buy the notion that Omar funnels all his off-season plans through the backup short-stop. Harper may not be that far off. There is a collusion issue being debated. During a Burkhardt interview Jason Marquis seemed surprised The Mets didn't come harder It's OK though, we have the big O

Frayed Knot Apr 15 2010 11:50 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

Except that if the Mets didn't want to go after Piniero, either because they didn't want to pay the price or because there was some sort of prior agreement not to try, then that's a completely different article. But what Harper is doing here is to admit that, while he also had questions about Piniero being worth the price, he isn't about to let that stop him from running with a "what if" column after his first good game. Meanwhile, is there any question about how quickly he would have cited those same pre-signing questions to go with the "another bloated Minaya contract" angle on the occasion of Piniero's first bad NYM outing? He then goes on to use the Cora connection to imply - hell, to state - that the GM is in the business of funneling his interest info through the backup short-stop to the intended target even when the target is apparently a false one all along. The more plausible explanation here is: 'hmmm, a possible NYM FA not only had a good game right just as the Mets are in the middle of a losing streak but did so right here in the Bronx during the afternoon and on my local TV station ... now what possibly could I write today's column about that would have the added benefit of me not having to leave my desk?'

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 16 2010 12:19 PM Re: The Starting Rotation Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 24 2010 09:15 AM

As per Patrick Flood, Pelfrey might finally be adapting, shedding his AC/DC ways for tapping his inner Bowie en route to becoming the "real pitcher" he is, or can be. Not everyone can do this. Some pitchers are unable to change, for whatever reasons. Stubbornness, inability, too much Waffle House, injuries, whatever. Oliver Perez comes to mind. John Maine is trying, but apparently failing, and now changing back to whatever he was doing before. If you’re a pitcher, and you can’t adapt, you’re going to burn out or fade away. But if you can turn and face the strange and change . . . Johan Santana is adept at adapting within a single game, pitch to pitch. He’ll be around for as long as his small frame can hold up. He is, as Mike Pelfrey hopes to be someday, an actual pitcher. This may be Mike Pelfrey’s greatest asset: he has shown that he is capable and willing to grow and to change. Of course, all that other stuff - arm strength, smooth mechanics, velocity, strikeouts, ground balls, control - that’s all key too. Obviously, Mike Pelfrey would not be a major league pitcher if he could not throw a baseball really, really fast. But an ability to adapt and change at the highest level, that may be the most important skill, both for “actual pitchers” and rock ‘n’ rollers.

Edgy DC May 24 2010 08:50 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

So, what are we working with now? Phillies: Dickey Tuesday Takahashi Wednesday Pelfrey Thursday Brewers: Santana Friday And who Saturday? I guess this isn't an issue until then, so they have a few days to chew on it.

Benjamin Grimm May 24 2010 08:51 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

My guess will be Misch.

Ceetar May 24 2010 08:54 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

Edgy DC wrote: So, what are we working with now? Phillies: Dickey Tuesday Takahashi Wednesday Pelfrey Thursday Brewers: Santana Friday And who Saturday? I guess this isn't an issue until then, so they have a few days to chew on it. I imagine Perez is always an option too. and Valdes depending? It's curious that they went back to Dickey instead of Valdes as they originally decided. Is this because they saw Wakefield baffle the Phillies? And is this a good or bad thing, considering the Phillies will face knuckleballer for a second day, presumably having more of a chance to adjust, particularly to a presumably lesser version of it?

TransMonk May 24 2010 08:55 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

Ugh...I'm going Saturday and Sunday. A week ago I was hoping to see Pelf and Johan. Now I get Misch and Dickey? Cripes.

Edgy DC May 24 2010 08:55 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

I just scribbled Dickey in there. I hadn't read Valdes was scheduled to go against Philadelphia. I guess that looks like our answer.

metirish May 24 2010 08:58 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

Edgy DC wrote: I just scribbled Dickey in there. I hadn't read Valdes was scheduled to go against Philadelphia. I guess that looks like our answer. It's Dickey from what I read, and that view was strengthened by Wakefield's mastery of the Phillies over the weekend.

John Cougar Lunchbucket May 31 2010 08:34 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

So it's Takahashi, Pelfrey and Santana vs. San Diego and an off-day Thursday. Is Friday's pitcher Nieve (it'd be his "turn" if he gets one)... Or Dickey (his "day") ... or Other?

Gwreck May 31 2010 12:17 PM Re: The Starting Rotation

We also have an off day on the 7th, after that Marlins series. You don't mess with success and just keep the same 4 man rotation going until Niese is ready (which should be soon, I thought).

OlerudOwned May 31 2010 12:46 PM Re: The Starting Rotation

A pretty lousy spot-starter shouldn't get a "turn" and a knuckleballer probably doesn't need extra rest, so I would hope that it's Dickey friday.

Gwreck May 31 2010 02:05 PM Re: The Starting Rotation

Rubin reports that Niese will be back in the rotation on Saturday. I guess that would give us this rotation - which would mean some extra rest for everyone. (The alternative is taking Takahashi out of the rotation as Pelfrey could go again on Sunday, 6/6). Mon 5/31 - Takahashi v. Kevin Correia Tue 6/1 - Pelfrey v. Wade LeBlanc Wed 6/2 - Santana v. Clayton Richard Thu 6/3 - OFF Fri 6/4 - R.A. Dickey v. Anibal Sanchez Sat 6/5 - Niese v. Nate Robertson Sun 6/6 - Takahashi v. Ricky Nolasco Mon 6/7 - OFF Tue 6/8 - Pelfrey v. Clayton Richard Wed 6/9 - Santana v. Mat Latos Thu 6/10 - Dickey v. Jon Garland Fri 6/11 - Niese v. Jeremy Guthrie Sat 6/12 - Takahashi v. Brian Matusz Sun 6/13 - Pelfrey v. Brad Bergesen Mon 6/14 - OFF

bmfc1 May 31 2010 03:56 PM Re: The Starting Rotation

Niese today--6 IP, 2 R, 8 H, 0 BB http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb ... a_bufaaa_1

Gwreck May 31 2010 03:59 PM Re: The Starting Rotation

Nice job by the Buffalo 'pen there.

bmfc1 May 31 2010 04:02 PM Re: The Starting Rotation

I'm not sure why they slotted Niese for Saturday. With two off days, they don't need him to start until 6/12. This gives Santana a week between starts. I thought that you want your best guy out there more often, not less. (Thanks for the good work, gwreck.)

Gwreck May 31 2010 04:10 PM Re: The Starting Rotation

Santana's got 1 extra day no matter what, with the off day on Monday. I guess they could put throw Pelfrey on Sunday, skip Takahashi and push him back to that Wednesday start instead.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jun 08 2010 11:47 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

R.J. Anderson of Fangraphs grits his teeth and lauds Omar for the Takahashi "find" and sign. But what will he say once the Mets pull him from the rotation for giving up a couple of home runs? Give Omar Minaya credit: he’s the best when it comes to signing left-handed relievers with the last name Takahashi. Last season, after the Blue Jays released him, the Mets pounced on Ken Takahashi. He would wind up throwing more than 25 innings out of the pen and generally performed well. Well, that Takahashi is gone, but the Mets added Hisanori Takahashi in his place. No, they didn’t give Hisanori the same number in order to preserve those surplus replica jerseys and it’s for the best. Hisanori has already thrown 42 innings for the Mets this season and he’s now a member of the Metropolitans’ rotation. The promotion came after 26 innings in the pen; during that stretch Takahashi struck out 33 batters, allowed a single home run, and walked 14 – a total that is deceiving because five of those walks were of the intentional variety – good for a FIP under 2.7. As one would expect, Takahashi has not continued to strike out more than 11 batters per nine innings pitched as a starter. In fact his strikeout rate sat just under seven per nine entering yesterday; his walk ratio, now unburdened by occasional over managing, sits at a positively cuddle-worthy 1.69 per nine. Takahashi held a 4.21 xFIP entering his start against the Florida Marlins with the main point of conflict being his home run rate. Naturally he allowed two homers, giving him three in 21 starter innings. Even after those homers, Takahashi’s starter FIP is just north of 4.00. Takahashi very well could be one of those relievers able to translate his skill set into a worthwhile starting performance. Even if his arsenal – which features a high-80s fastball, a loopy high-60s curve, and his sinker-change-up combination of an outpitch known as the shuuto – lacks in sexiness and top-end velocity, he seems to make up for it with the ability to place each pitch wherever he wants. It’s just amazing that the same guy who gives Alex Cora a contract worth a few million and a vesting option in a non-existent market can take less money and find bargains like either Takahashi.

Frayed Knot Jun 08 2010 11:49 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

And the thing about those Marlin HRs off Takahashi, one was absolutely a wind-blown fly ball and the other one was wind-aided although might have gone out anyway.

Edgy DC Jun 08 2010 11:52 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

Enough with Cora.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jun 08 2010 11:59 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

Indeed. In a true sky, Ross' ball dies in Bay's glove, and Paulino's shot against Frankie sails over the fence.

attgig Jun 08 2010 02:30 PM Re: The Starting Rotation

Ollie's injury declared a real injury. http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/ ... id=5264796 Major League Baseball is satisfied with left-hander Oliver Perez's placement on the disabled list with right knee tendinitis and will not pursue nullifying the maneuver. Perez had abruptly landed on the DL on Saturday to clear roster room for left-hander Jon Niese after declining to go to the minor leagues. The Mets had Perez take an MRI on Friday at the Hospital for Special Surgery. After reviewing the medical material, MLB has declined to pursue the matter further.

attgig Jun 08 2010 02:32 PM Re: The Starting Rotation

Fangraphs analyzing Santana... from more of a fantasy angle, specifically talking about his K rate http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index. ... trikeouts/ Johan Santana’s Strikeouts by David Golebiewski - June 8, 2010 Johan Santana’s career credentials are unquestioned. The Venezuelan southpaw, a Rule V gem who won two Cy Young Awards with the Twins, has a 3.39 FIP in the majors. He’s got over a K per inning during his career, and he topped the seven WAR mark each season from 2004-2006. Santana was “merely” a four-to-five win pitcher in 2007-2008, before elbow surgery to remove bone chips ended his ‘09 season early and caused him to post 2.8 WAR. On the surface, the 31-year-old’s 2010 season looks like vintage Santana — in 78.1 innings, he’s got a 2.76 ERA. But the process behind those results isn’t as impressive. While the Queens version of Santana in ‘08 and ‘09 didn’t miss bats at the same rate as his halcyon days with the Twins, he still managed swinging strike rates in excess of 11 percent (8-9% MLB average) with an overall contact rate in the 77-78% range (80-81% MLB average). This season, Santana is getting swinging strikes 9.4%, with a contact rate right around the big league average. As a result, Santana’s strikeout rate has declined — from 7.9 batters per nine innings in ‘08 and ‘09 to 6.55 K/9 in 2010. His walk rate has climbed somewhat as well (2.76 BB/9, from the 2.4-2.5 BB/9 range the previous two years), though not alarmingly so. Santana’s expected FIP (xFIP), derived from a pitcher’s K’s, walks and a normalized home run per fly ball rate, is 4.48. Now, that mark likely exaggerates the extent of Johan’s struggles. His BABIP is pretty low at .268, but Santana has generally posted lower-than average BABIP figures (.286 career). Santana gets a lot of fly balls (35.8 GB% in 2010, 37.8 GB% career), which have a lower BABIP than grounders. He induces a lot of weakly hit pop ups, with a 12.7% infield fly rate this year and a 13.2% mark for his career. Santana’s rate of stranding base runners (79.7%) is well above the 70-72% MLB average, but his career rate is 77.5%. It seems reasonable to suggest he’ll continue to have a LOB rate above the big league norm. Santana’s home run per fly ball rate (5.5%) almost assuredly will rise, though. So, Santana hasn’t performed near as well as his ERA suggests, but probably not as poorly as his xFIP indicates. His falling K rate is worth examining further, however. The velocity on Santana’s four-seam fastball has declined again this season, as has the zip on his slider. But those aren’t the root causes for the reduced number of whiffs. Take a look at Santana’s whiff percentage by pitch over the 2008-2010 seasons (data from Trip Somers’ texasleaguers site): Perhaps as a result of hitters not anticipating it as much, Santana has actually gotten a higher whiff rate on his four-seamer. His two-seamer has a very low whiff percentage in 2010 after getting an above average number last season. That most glaring difference, however, is the whiff rate on the changeup. Santana’s signature change got a whiff 22.4% in ‘08 and 17.4% in ‘09, but just 13.6% this season (12.1% MLB average). That’s a substantial drop. Though his ERA is pristine, Johan Santana really isn’t in the conversation anymore when it comes to the absolute best starters in the game. That doesn’t mean he’s done being a quality pitcher, but he’s not fooling hitters with the same regularity these days.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jun 09 2010 11:32 AM Re: The Starting Rotation

More than a few have posited this as the source of Johan's ever-so-slight-- or impending-- fall-off. Mainly, IIRC, the logic's been that the decreased FB velocity makes the mildly-tumbling change a lot more of a pitch to sit on, and sit on successfully, as long as you can foul off 89-90 MPH fastballs ad infinitum. In other news... Mike Puma wrote: According to a league spokesman, the commissioner's office is satisfied with the Mets' explanation for placing Oliver Perez on the disabled list. Well, okay, we sort of knew that. What else? Mick Ferocity wrote: The Mets have decided to flip-flop Jon Niese and R.A. Dickey in the rotation. Niese will now pitch tomorrow against the Padres and Dickey will start Friday in Baltimore. Okay, well, Dickey's got fewer ligaments than most, so it figures he'd be more flexible, too. Anything else? Sex Panther wrote: After Maine threw about 30 pitches in a simulated game yesterday at Citi Field, manager Jerry Manuel said he could envision the rigsht-hander back in the rotation soon — with Hisanori Takahashi shifted to the bullpen. "We like Takahashi as a pitcher," Manuel said before the Mets faced the Padres last night. "[But] we think we have lost something in the bullpen when he's a starter, so that's a scenario that could work if and when John Maine is healthy and we feel he's ready to be part of the rotation." Yeah, you really do lose something in that bullpen with Takahashi starting... you're missing someone who can fill the valuable "that guy who comes in when John Maine makes abortive or otherwise terrible starts" role.

Edgy DC Jun 09 2010 12:11 PM Re: The Starting Rotation

Manuel went on to say as well that "We're really missing something in the bullpen with Johan Santana in the rotation. In fact, we're also missing something on the bench when we start David Wright, and we've definitely been missing some minor league depth ever since we promoted Ike Davis."

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 09 2010 12:13 PM Re: The Starting Rotation

Really, I'd be mildly surprised if Maine doesn't wind up in the pen, sooner if not later.

Vic Sage Jun 09 2010 02:33 PM Re: The Starting Rotation

"We like Takahashi as a pitcher," Manuel said... As opposed to what? Liking him as a dessert topping? A floor wax? A dessert topping AND a floor wax?