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Maine: Mad

John Cougar Lunchbucket May 20 2010 10:15 PM

Ledger_NYMets Maine furious with Manuel for pulling him, insists he's not hurt. "There's no reason I should be seeing a (expletive) doctor tomorrow." Not knowing any of the facts and even having called for Jerry's furing today I'm still gonna side with the Gangsta on this one and wonder if he's not on some level forcing some drama to remind people who's boss again. It'd be a huge mark in his favor if he's as exasperated with Maine as I've been since last year.

Ceetar May 20 2010 10:21 PM Re: Maine: Mad

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Ledger_NYMets Maine furious with Manuel for pulling him, insists he's not hurt. "There's no reason I should be seeing a (expletive) doctor tomorrow." Not knowing any of the facts and even having called for Jerry's furing today I'm still gonna side with the Gangsta on this one and wonder if he's not on some level forcing some drama to remind people who's boss again. It'd be a huge mark in his favor if he's as exasperated with Maine as I've been since last year. I don't see how any of this chaos is going to look good for Manuel who can't control a clubhouse apparently. This is the second time (the possible decision to pull Maine from the rotation a couple of weeks ago) that Maine's gotten news from the media, this time about going to the doctor tomorrow. He says Manuel didn't talk to him once after the confrontation we saw in the dugout. Warthen called Maine a habitual liar about his health. Maine says he thinks Manuel has no confidence in him. (True or not, we all, including Manuel, want Maine to do well. What does letting him think this accomplish?) Maine says he was never even asked if he was ok before being lifted and has no idea why he is going to the Dr. (I hope the doctors at least know what they're supposed to be looking at?) Something's fishy here for sure. This reflects well on no one.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 20 2010 10:24 PM Re: Maine: Mad

"Habitual liar?" Wow.

OlerudOwned May 20 2010 10:29 PM Re: Maine: Mad

Warthen was not convinced. “When he is throwing that way, then there has got to be something incorrect in that arm. Something has got to be feeling bad. John is a habitual liar in a lot of ways, as far as his own health. He is a competitor and a warrior, and he wants to go out and pitch, but we have to be smart enough to see that he isn’t right, that the ball isn’t coming out of his hand correctly.” It doesn't look so bad in context, but it's still an awful choice of words.

batmagadanleadoff May 20 2010 10:33 PM Re: Maine: Mad

Ceetar wrote: I don't see how any of this chaos is going to look good for Manuel who can't control a clubhouse apparently.... Maine says he thinks Manuel has no confidence in him. (True or not, we all, including Manuel, want Maine to do well. What does letting him think this accomplish?). I'd like to see Maine do well too. I'd also like to see Ollie Perez regain his form before the team dumps him. I rooted for Mark Bomback. And Juan Berenguer. And Eric Hillman and Gene Walter and Casey Fossum and every other tomato can that was a tomato can in a Met uniform. None of this entitles these pitchers to an indefinite number of starts.

John Cougar Lunchbucket May 20 2010 10:34 PM Re: Maine: Mad

context: “When he is throwing that way, then there has got to be something incorrect in that arm. Something has got to be feeling bad. John is a habitual liar in a lot of ways, as far as his own health. He is a competitor and a warrior, and he wants to go out and pitch, but we have to be smart enough to see that he isn’t right, that the ball isn’t coming out of his hand correctly.” So why let Maine pitch after the flawed bullpen session? “Talking to him several times in the bullpen, he convinced me that he could go out and compete. Watching his warmup pitches and watching the first hitter, it just wasn’t right…I gave him the benefit of the doubt.” Maine no longer believes that the team will do that. Asked if he thought Manuel had confidence in him, the pitcher said. “I’m sure he doesn’t have confidence in me. Whatever. My dealings are with Dan.” Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/mets/#ixzz0oXFua3kC

batmagadanleadoff May 20 2010 10:44 PM Re: Maine: Mad

So what has Maine done lately to deserve this unwavering confidence that he thinks he's entitled to? He's been ineffective for the most part. It sounds like he painted Manuel and Warthen into a corner. If Maine was left in there to continue and pitched dismally, or worse, injured himself, who the hell knows if he'd then be claiming that he was mishandled because the team ignored his medical condition? Jerry's damned either way, it seems.

Edgy DC May 20 2010 10:48 PM Re: Maine: Mad

Maybe. It's just bad if they're talking through the media. Such battles get worse before they get better.

Gwreck May 20 2010 11:45 PM Re: Maine: Mad

Jerry did a lot of things wrong here, including sending Maine out to pitch when he was clearly unsure about whether that was a good idea and then showing Maine up when taking him out of the game. Those faults aside, I too have to side with Jerry here. The Mets need to win games and if Maine can't throw fastballs it's not as if he has great off-speed pitches to fall back on.

Ceetar May 21 2010 05:45 AM Re: Maine: Mad

Gwreck wrote: Jerry did a lot of things wrong here, including sending Maine out to pitch when he was clearly unsure about whether that was a good idea and then showing Maine up when taking him out of the game. Those faults aside, I too have to side with Jerry here. The Mets need to win games and if Maine can't throw fastballs it's not as if he has great off-speed pitches to fall back on. It's not so much the decision as how it was made, when it was made, and the lack of communication and the yelling at each other throw the media. Why was his velocity suddenly 85? did he not warm up enough? Did he need to get looser? is his back hurting? blister? was it just first batter flukes? Inject water into the ball? and what's the game plan from here? Maine thinks he can still pitch. was it a one day sorta 'my backs real tight today' that he needed longer to warm up and didn't do it? is it a skip a start type thing? I can't help but wonder if he wakes up fine today that they shouldn't send him out there. Even if Maine only goes 5.2, let Takahashi finish up..or are they planning to let Ollie finish the game? There is an off day next week, do you skip Maine? too many questions, no answers, and the situation is a mess from both sides.

Frayed Knot May 21 2010 07:23 AM Re: Maine: Mad

I'm not sure that announcing five minutes before game time that Maine would not start and is going to get checked out the next day (whether he wants it or not) because they didn't like the looks of his warmup tosses would have made this whole tussle go down any better. Shirley someone would trot out the story about how Tom Seaver didn't feel so good during warmups for his imperfect game all those years back (there are others as well) and about how Jerry is so desperate to save his ass that he couldn't even wait until game time to start panicking.

G-Fafif May 21 2010 07:42 AM Re: Maine: Mad

Warthen's "habitual liar" line, destined to go down as a pitching coach classic with "I can fix him in 10 minutes" and "Tuscany tile," brings to mind this little ditty from the 1884 presidential campaign: Blaine! Blaine! James G. Blaine! Continental liar from the state of Maine! I've also seen it as "monumental liar". Either way, I read about it when I was a kid and it's rung through my brain at least a few Maine starts per year since 2007. I had no idea there was really something to it. If John recovers and is still in the rotation when we face Cleveland, watch the sparks fly!

metsmarathon May 21 2010 07:47 AM Re: Maine: Mad

contextually, the "habitual liar" thing sounds a lot less damning. its almost complimentary. i imagine maine is frustrated with his injury problems and feels like "if i can just work through it, i can figure out a way to make this work" i guess i'd rather he want to go out there and try to get batters out even when he's not feeling good than to be looking for excuses not to be in the game. i don't like playing the "let's read too much into things" game, but i can help but think that jerry has expressed so little confidence in his starters not named johan, and it may be affecting his relationship with those pitchers. at least with maine. who is probably smart enough to know that jerry's doghouse is an elusive threat. you may never know where it is, when it's coming, and how you got there, but once you're in, there's no escape until you make the transactions ledger. maine seems to be a guy who gets into his own head too much, and having a manager constantly expressing doubt in your abilities is probably not the most helpful thing for a guy like that. ultimately, its on john to be effective and figure things out, both how to stay healthy and how to pitch even if you're not. but i feel like jerry is not helping.

batmagadanleadoff May 21 2010 08:11 AM Re: Maine: Mad

....yet all of it fails to measure up to the war of words touched off by the decision to remove John Maine after five pitches on Thursday night. Maine failed to reach 85 mph on any of his pitches, including the fastballs, and was quickly removed from the game by Jerry Manuel and pitching coach Dan Warthen. After the game, they cited the lack of velocity, a lackluster bullpen session before the game and an altered delivery, two things that made them think Maine was injured and trying to pitch through the pain. Catcher Rod Barajas also said Maine didn't look right, but Maine was less than thrilled with the team's decision-making. http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/sports/E ... 69669.html “If he’s throwing that way, then there’s got to be something incorrect in that arm,” Warthen said. “Something’s not feeling correct. John’s a habitual liar in a lot of ways as far as his own health. He’s a competitor and a warrior. He wants to go out there and pitch. But we have to be smart enough to realize this guy isn’t right, the ball’s not coming out of his hand correctly.” In the bullpen, Maine convinced Warthen that he could pitch, but he and Manuel were skeptical. So while Maine was warming up for the bottom of the first inning, they had Valdes preparing in the bullpen, which Maine noticed. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/21/sport ... 1mets.html Do you know what an 85 MPH fast ball is? It's a pitch that even Bud Harrelson could clout over the outfield wall. It sounds like Jerry didn't wanna wait until the Mets were down by three or four runs before pulling Maine.

MFS62 May 21 2010 08:15 AM Re: Maine: Mad

Its a matter of where the observation is coming from. I remember a Mets pitcher (could have been Tommy Terrific), toward the end of his career, saying, "I'm throwing as hard as I ever did. But it takes the ball longer to get to the plate." Maybe Maine does believe he is throwing as hard as ever. But others are checking the time. But, there must have been a different word to use than "liar", no matter what the context. Later

Edgy DC May 21 2010 08:39 AM Re: Maine: Mad

I realize that there's an implied comment when that line is read with an appreciation for nuance, but "liar" is just one of those line-crossing words that makes people see red and ignore any context, particuarly when things are heated, particuarly competitive people. Maybe I'm wrong, but trying to give it a reading that Maine can appreciate may be like trying to explain to your wife all the positive connotations that "bitch" and "phat" can have. Good luck with that.

Ceetar May 21 2010 08:45 AM Re: Maine: Mad

metsmarathon wrote: i don't like playing the "let's read too much into things" game, but i can help but think that jerry has expressed so little confidence in his starters not named johan, and it may be affecting his relationship with those pitchers. at least with maine. who is probably smart enough to know that jerry's doghouse is an elusive threat. you may never know where it is, when it's coming, and how you got there, but once you're in, there's no escape until you make the transactions ledger. ultimately, its on john to be effective and figure things out, both how to stay healthy and how to pitch even if you're not. but i feel like jerry is not helping. Exactly. I'm pissed at Maine for seemingly being hurt and struggling again..but the guy works hard, and tries his best to compete. Am I really going to criticize that? Especially only 10-12 starts post-injury? Is that enough to say a guy's done? The past month Maine (and Perez) have seemingly been pitching each game like if they don't perform, they're done. That's a lot of pressure. Now Maine's going to go into his next start (presuming nothing is actually wrong, etc, whatever they decide to do) thinking every single batter could make or break his entire season. When he's got a 3-1 count on a batter in the second, is he going to think "Throw this for a strike, or the next pitch may be for Buffalo?" Pressure! Like this team isn't pressing enough?

John Cougar Lunchbucket May 21 2010 08:49 AM Re: Maine: Mad

I'd rather Maine press than suck, but he wouldn't need to press if he hadn't been sucking. The truth is a lot of pitchers are never the same after shoulder injuries, Maine looks very much like he could be one of them.

batmagadanleadoff May 21 2010 08:57 AM Re: Maine: Mad

Ceetar wrote: ..but the guy works hard, and tries his best to compete. Am I really going to criticize that? Especially only 10-12 starts post-injury? Is that enough to say a guy's done? If you're asking me, I'd say that you'll begin by concluding that whatever it is, it's Jerry's fault, and then come up with something, anything, to support your conclusion.

metirish May 21 2010 09:03 AM Re: Maine: Mad

I don't really give a fiddlers fuck who's right or wrong in this instance but I do know I felt fucking good watching Jerry chewing one of his guys out.

Ceetar May 21 2010 09:11 AM Re: Maine: Mad

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Ceetar wrote: ..but the guy works hard, and tries his best to compete. Am I really going to criticize that? Especially only 10-12 starts post-injury? Is that enough to say a guy's done? If you're asking me, I'd say that you'll begin by concluding that whatever it is, it's Jerry's fault, and then come up with something, anything, to support your conclusion. Jerry's a pissy whiny manager, who should stop sniping his players to the media and tell them to their faces like a respectible adult, not storm off the mound muttering to himself and only responding when the pitcher yells at you in the dugout and then not talk to him for 4 hours before letting everyone run wild and say whatever they want to the media. But that's Jerry, and it hasn't gotten him fired yet apparently, and it doesn't change the fact that Maine was..something. Tell me this though, what hurts? back? shoulder? elbow? left pinky toe? Do these doctors that Maine is supposedly seeing know? Did they tell Maine which doctor to go to? Or is he gonna go get his arm checked out when they wanted him to look at his knee? Neither of them did any to help their point. Maine bent over in supposed pain, mentioned a slow bullpen, didn't necessarily suggest he was perfectly fine. Warthen and Manuel never addressed a specific injury. Did Maine go to the trainer after he left? the media circus following that was a mess. "He didn't look right, wasn't throwing hard." is not a diagnosis...where does this leave us? Was it even a one day thing and could he go tonight?

Edgy DC May 21 2010 09:18 AM Re: Maine: Mad

You know, if Jerry didn't talk to Maine for a few hours, I'm guessing he had a game to win.

batmagadanleadoff May 21 2010 09:24 AM Re: Maine: Mad

Ceetar wrote: Ceetar wrote: ..but the guy works hard, and tries his best to compete. Am I really going to criticize that? Especially only 10-12 starts post-injury? Is that enough to say a guy's done? If you're asking me, I'd say that you'll begin by concluding that whatever it is, it's Jerry's fault, and then come up with something, anything, to support your conclusion. Warthen and Manuel never addressed a specific injury. Did Maine go to the trainer after he left? the media circus following that was a mess. "He didn't look right, wasn't throwing hard." is not a diagnosis...where does this leave us? "He didn't look right" is indeed a diagnosis, and sometimes, the best damn one. Because the best managers, in addition to being able to control the clubhouse and understand tactics and in-game strategy, can evaluate a player by simply looking at him, sometimes for no more than a few seconds. Gil Hodges had this talent in spades. So did Earl Weaver. And Branch Rickey*. And Davey Johnson and Bobby Valentine. Remove these guys from the dugout and put them in the scouting department, and they'd surely establish themselves as the best judges of talent soon enough. Maybe Jerry had it last night when it mattered. *General, not field manager.

Ceetar May 21 2010 09:33 AM Re: Maine: Mad

Fine, I'm not dismissing that Manuel very well may have diagnosed Maine correctly, as it pertained to the game last night. But how about going forward? What's the plan? What's the actual injury that you work to correct, or are they just going to take him out back and put him down? Manuel long ago lost the benefit of the doubt with me. Give me (and Maine) your reasoning and the plan going forward. Yeah, the best managers can do things like that. (Manuel's not even a good manager) but good managers can also do two things at once, can get a report from the trainer, and can whisper to Maine that maybe they should sit down and talk to each other before the press. I don't care who's at fault, I just want to know what's happening to fix it.

bmfc1 May 21 2010 09:35 AM Re: Maine: Mad

Warthan shouldn't have called him a "liar." He could have said that Maine is a "competitor" who "wants to be out there" but that he and Jerry have to look at the best interests of the team. That would have been fine. Jerry showed him up on the mound and in the dugout and then Warthan did so after the game. That doesn't mean that they were wrong in their actions but should have handled it much, much better. I wonder if this began before last night. On Wednesday, I was at the game early and stood in the LF bleachers watching BP while the pitchers warmed up below us. I saw Maine and Warthan walk toward the bullpen but they were only near each other, not walking together and talking. They went into the bullpen and then left only 3 or 4 minutes later. Warthan walked back to the dugout by himself while Maine meandered alone in the OF. At the time, I wondered if there was a problem between the two.

Swan Swan H May 21 2010 09:38 AM Re: Maine: Mad

Ceetar wrote: Fine, I'm not dismissing that Manuel very well may have diagnosed Maine correctly, as it pertained to the game last night. But how about going forward? What's the plan? What's the actual injury that you work to correct, or are they just going to take him out back and put him down? Manuel long ago lost the benefit of the doubt with me. Give me (and Maine) your reasoning and the plan going forward. Yeah, the best managers can do things like that. (Manuel's not even a good manager) but good managers can also do two things at once, can get a report from the trainer, and can whisper to Maine that maybe they should sit down and talk to each other before the press. I don't care who's at fault, I just want to know what's happening to fix it. It's 11:30 the morning after this happened. Were you expecting a call from Omar with your Cheerios this morning?

Edgy DC May 21 2010 09:39 AM Re: Maine: Mad

Branch Rickey had a solid decade of managing. While the modern split of field manager and general manger was evolving, and he went upstairs and became a lengend. While his record was middling (below .500), Bill James describes Rickey as the father of one of three or four main "famiilies" of managers.

Edgy DC May 21 2010 09:43 AM Re: Maine: Mad

Can somebody tell me how Jerry showed him up on the mound? I was entering the park at the time.

Ceetar May 21 2010 09:44 AM Re: Maine: Mad

Edgy DC wrote: Can somebody tell me how Jerry showed him up on the mound? I was entering the park at the time. He walked out there with everone else, said "you're out" or whatever, turned around and walked off. No interaction, conversation, or practice pitch. Didn't ask him what was hurting, didn't walk off with him (something Ron Darling harped on)

MFS62 May 21 2010 09:45 AM Re: Maine: Mad

batmagadanleadoff wrote: "He didn't look right" is indeed a diagnosis, and sometimes, the best damn one. Because the best managers, in addition to being able to control the clubhouse and understand tactics and in-game strategy, can evaluate a player by simply looking at him, sometimes for no more than a few seconds. In his book Baseball is a Funny Game, Joe Garagiola told a story about a pitcher giving up hard, first-pitch, hits to the first few batters he faced in a game. The manager came running out and asked the catcher if the pitcher had good stuff. The catcher replied "I don't know. I haven't caught one yet." Sometimes the pitcher isn't the one in the best position to know. Later

Edgy DC May 21 2010 09:48 AM Re: Maine: Mad

Ceetar wrote: Edgy DC wrote: Can somebody tell me how Jerry showed him up on the mound? I was entering the park at the time. He walked out there with everone else, said "you're out" or whatever, turned around and walked off. No interaction, conversation, or practice pitch. Didn't ask him what was hurting, didn't walk off with him (something Ron Darling harped on) Wouldn't he be waiting to hand the ball off to the reliever?

Swan Swan H May 21 2010 09:48 AM Re: Maine: Mad

Edgy DC wrote: Can somebody tell me how Jerry showed him up on the mound? I was entering the park at the time. Warthen came out, then Manuel. They spoke with Maine briefly, then Manuel called for Valdes turned toward the dugout with a 'come with me' move, and started walking. One little thing I noticed during the replays - when Manuel and Maine were jawing in the dugout Warthen was there, and the coaches were beside them, but Lil' Sarge came down from the other end of the bench to take a drink of water and stand there, likely to help ensure that nothing got out of hand. The guy can't play worth a damn, but that was a veteran move right there.

John Cougar Lunchbucket May 21 2010 09:50 AM Re: Maine: Mad

It was nothing. To see it in the park you'd think there was just an injury on the last pitcher or whatever. Mike Vaccaro of the Post (who like me thinks Jerry oughta be fired) brings it strong in his condemnation of Maine and support for Jerry last night (just like me). Vac's Friday Whacks on Maine's Insubordination, Rising Rays and Two Great Sit-Coms ... By MIKE VACCARO There is a lot you can criticize Jerry Manuel for, and then there is what happened last night with his starting pitcher, John Maine . Five days ago in Miami, Maine looked scared to death at the notion of serving as a stopper for a Mets' losing streak that stood at three on its way to five, throwing 12 straight balls to start the game. Last night, handed a quick 3-0 lead in Washington, he threw three balls to Nyger Morgan , spiced things up with a called strike on a 43-mph fastball, issued a walk, bent over at the waist, looked in distress. Forget that Manuel is in no position to have lots of patience to see if Maine could work his way out of this; neither are the Mets. Later on, as the Mets tried very hard to blow a 10-1 lead (on the same day the Braves had earlier scored seven in the ninth to pull off a miracle comeback), you could sense the fatalism of Mets fans reaching a launching point; nobody likes to think of a game on May the 20th as a must-win. But all things considered, this was. Dan Warthen , the pitching coach, determined Maine wasn't right. So did Rod Barajas , the catcher. And so Manuel waved to the bullpen, ending Maine's night -- rightly -- after just five Florida State League-level pitches. "He said he would loosen up and then we saw 82, 83," Manuel explained later. "I told him I didn't want take a chance. He wanted to pitch. We got into a little exchange about that. I told him I was trying to protect his best interests." Warthen: "We just didn't think John had enough to compete,. When he's throwing that way, there's gotta be something incorrect in that arm. John's a habitual liar in a lot of ways about his own health. We have to be the boss out there." Barajas: "He didn't look right." For what it's worth, later on, SNY's Bob Ojeda -- the network's rapidly improving studio analyst who is no house organ by any means -- would show precisely what was wrong with Maine's mechanics, and would back up the decision to pull him by showing plain-sight reasons why his fastball was hovering in the low-80s, a prime candidate for getting pounded by the Nats' big bats. But Maine, even hours afterward, was still angry. And started spewing pure, unfiltered nonsense. "It was the first batter of game," Maine said. "Cut me a little bit of slack. They want to see 95 [mph] and didn't see it. . . . I'm sure he doesn't have any confidence in me." And: "I felt pain for two years. I'm over it. I'm well enough to pitch. I'm telling them everything that's going on." And: "I didn't get asked and that's what I'm concerned about. They never asked see how I was. They just said, 'You're out.'" And: "I don't have enough clout. I don't have enough star power to say anything. I would like an explanation. Me throwing 85 miles an hour, I don't think is a good explanation for me to be taken out of the game." Manuel confronted Maine Billy Martin -style in the dugout (without the ready fists), and it was one of the best moments of his tenure as manager. Maine doesn't have any clout? You bet he doesn't. Not only has he missed most of the last tw years with a shoulder ailment, but his first stint on the DL in 2008 was immediately preceded by an event eerily similar to this one, Manuel and Warten walking to the mound, taking the ball away, and Maine stomping off into the dugout with a pout on his face. Within a week he was disabled. Manuel said he didn't want to be responsible for ending an athlete's career, that he's paid to be the grown-up, and if that's the case it's especially noble. But Manuel is also in the position now where he must win as many games as he can, and he wasn't about to let Maine throw batting practice with a man already on and Ryan Zimmerman , Adam Dunn and Josh Willingham waiting. If you want to credit Maine for grit, fine, grant him those points. But if you want a real culprit, you might want to turn to Omar Minaya , who basically said that Mike Pelfrey , Maine and Oliver Perez weren't fighting for jobs in spring training. Pelfrey, despire a terrible spring, rose above that entitlement issue, and has had a terrific year, mostly because he has All-Star stuff. Perez is already in the bullpen. And Maine, with exactly one above-average big-league season under his belt (from a time when he routinely threw 95 and 96 mph) has been spotty at best. No, he doesn't have enough clout, and shouldn't. No, he doesn't deserve to be cut any slack. He is John Maine, reclamation project, at a time when the Mets can't afford to be holding open auditions on the pitcher's mound. He should shut up, starting right now. But he did provide his manager one moment to shine, at least, especially if it was one of his final opportunities to do so.

batmagadanleadoff May 21 2010 09:57 AM Re: Maine: Mad

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: It was nothing. To see it in the park you'd think there was just an injury on the last pitcher or whatever. Mike Vaccaro of the Post (who like me thinks Jerry oughta be fired) brings it strong in his condemnation of Maine and support for Jerry last night (just like me). And me. Don't forget about me. I'm not gonna blame Jerry for managing a win ... or not wanting to wait for Maine to walk a few batters right before giving up a 450 foot bomb to Adam Dunn.

Ashie62 May 21 2010 10:08 AM Re: Maine: Mad

DFA Maine, Jerry still goes

Edgy DC May 21 2010 12:07 PM Re: Maine: Mad

Seems like he's either (a) already hit the beer, (b) been crying or is on the verge, or (c) both. http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/ ... id=5206146

Zvon May 21 2010 12:23 PM Re: Maine: Mad

Edgy DC wrote: Seems like he's either (a) already hit the beer, (b) been crying or is on the verge, or (c) both. It really does. Maine is saying things I've already read so what he says is no surprise, but to see him saying it, looking the way he does there.... that's a little distressing.

Ashie62 May 21 2010 01:51 PM Re: Maine: Mad

It's never ez when you know it's time to scrape off the uniform

Ceetar May 21 2010 02:01 PM Re: Maine: Mad

StevePopper tweets: Maine is here - not in sight - and has not seen a doctor. #mets

A Boy Named Seo May 21 2010 02:29 PM Re: Maine: Mad

Edgy DC wrote: Seems like he's either (a) already hit the beer, (b) been crying or is on the verge, or (c) both. http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/ ... id=5206146 Burkhardt or Maine? You guys see glassy-eyed Kev behind Jerry? He looked like I felt when I woke up this morning after last night's little bender.

Ceetar May 21 2010 02:47 PM Re: Maine: Mad

A Boy Named Seo wrote: Seems like he's either (a) already hit the beer, (b) been crying or is on the verge, or (c) both. http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/ ... id=5206146 Burkhardt or Maine? You guys see glassy-eyed Kev behind Jerry? He looked like I felt when I woke up this morning after last night's little bender. He's got a toddler at home doesn't he? I've heard those things are tiring.

metsguyinmichigan May 21 2010 04:56 PM Re: Maine: Mad

Maine is headed to the 15-day DL with "shoulder weakness" with Elmer Dessens taking his spot.

G-Fafif May 21 2010 09:06 PM Re: Maine: Mad

metsguyinmichigan wrote: Maine is headed to the 15-day DL with "shoulder weakness" with Elmer Dessens taking his spot. Dessens, out of madness.

Ashie62 May 21 2010 09:35 PM Re: Maine: Mad

The inmates are running the asylum

Frayed Knot May 22 2010 03:51 AM Re: Maine: Mad

Ashie62 wrote: The inmates are running the asylum Let's review here; Maine doesn't want to come out of the game, doesn't want to get examined, and doesn't want to be put on the DL but all those happen anyway. So how does this add up to the inmates running things?

Kong76 May 22 2010 05:35 AM Re: Maine: Mad

It's that new math they were pushin' in the 70's.

Ceetar May 22 2010 06:23 AM Re: Maine: Mad

Regardless, is it really okay to mock your players as a manager? Maine swore he burned to pitch so badly he would "throw left-handed" if he had to. Informed of this claim, Manuel replied: "That's out of the question. But he might have more stuff lefty, I don't know. I might try that." Are we basically not going to see Maine again because Manuel doesn't want to? That's hardly a fair way to judge pitchers, let's just cut them, no chance he'll ever figure it out right? That's never turned out badly before..

metirish May 22 2010 06:47 AM Re: Maine: Mad

Was he mocking him or just having some fun?, I would really like to see the video but I would guess Jerry wasn't mocking him.

Edgy DC May 22 2010 07:36 AM Re: Maine: Mad

Come on, Ceetar.

Ceetar May 22 2010 09:23 AM Re: Maine: Mad

metirish wrote: Was he mocking him or just having some fun?, I would really like to see the video but I would guess Jerry wasn't mocking him. I've long since grown tired of Jerry avoiding questions by making silly jokes, whether it's at his pitcher (who he might not even be communicating with, isn't on good terms with, etc) 's expense, or Hanley Ramirez (and I'm always good to make fun of him in general). Whether or not it's "all in good fun" doesn't really mean much to me. He's making jokes about something that needs to be fixed. making problems funny doesn't make them less of a problem. And it doesn't mean the question, if it was worth being asked, doesn't deserve a legitimate answer. He's a clown, he's always been a clown. Maybe Mr. Met needs a helper.

Swan Swan H May 22 2010 09:36 AM Re: Maine: Mad

You should be a hockey fan, Ceetar. If Maine had his arm amputated with a chain saw he'd be listed as day-to-day with an upper body injury. I know you begin every thought with your white-hot hatred of Jerry Manuel and pile conspiracies on top of that, but as long as you keep demanding reasoning and answers, I'll ask this - why does Manuel or Omar owe you, the press or anyone else answers? If they are trying to make a deal it is helpful that they deal from a position of strength, and they will announce what they think would be helpful to announce.

Ashie62 May 22 2010 09:39 AM Re: Maine: Mad

Manuel, Jeffie and Omar are all graduates of the Flushing Clown College. This organization and team are almost too dysfunctional to even exist. It may not be the fairest thing to do but ties need to be cut. Wilpon-Sell it Minaya-Fired Manuel-Fired Warthen-Fired Hojo-Fired Maine-Traded Reyes-Traded Fmart-Promoted Mejia-SP Gee-SP Havens-2B Waiting is the amount of time it takes to get fucked Onward and upward

Ashie62 May 22 2010 09:41 AM Re: Maine: Mad

Swan Swan H wrote: You should be a hockey fan, Ceetar. If Maine had his arm amputated with a chain saw he'd be listed as day-to-day with an upper body injury. I know you begin every thought with your white-hot hatred of Jerry Manuel and pile conspiracies on top of that, but as long as you keep demanding reasoning and answers, I'll ask this - why does Manuel or Omar owe you, the press or anyone else answers? If they are trying to make a deal it is helpful that they deal from a position of strength, and they will announce what they think would be helpful to announce. Conspiracies?? Cmon

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 22 2010 09:49 AM Re: Maine: Mad

I'll ask this - why does Manuel or Omar owe you, the press or anyone else answers? If they are trying to make a deal it is helpful that they deal from a position of strength, and they will announce what they think would be helpful to announce. They don't owe anyone answers; conversely, neither do we owe them our attention or spending money. It does behoove them to deal honestly with the press-- or at least, lie well and professionally. Stop me if you've heard this song before: the organization's representatives-- right up through to the head-- haven't proven so great with the way they announce things of late. That said... yeah, Manuel was kidding. He does that.

batmagadanleadoff May 22 2010 10:01 AM Re: Maine: Mad

Two weeks ago, I mailed Manuel a letter asking him to send me a copy of the Mets secret code book and decoder of third base coach signs ---- The Manuel Manual! You know ... so I could understand the game better when I watch it.

batmagadanleadoff May 22 2010 10:06 AM Re: Maine: Mad

Yesterday I called up the Mets and demanded that Jerry send me a copy of Maine's medical chart and all MRI films because I'd like to personally monitor Maine's condition.

batmagadanleadoff May 22 2010 10:11 AM Re: Maine: Mad

Ceetar wrote: Are we basically not going to see Maine again because [Jerry] Manuel doesn't want to? That's hardly a fair way to judge pitchers, let's just cut them.... It's not fair at all. I agree. We should at least run the idea by Bobby Cox and Charlie Manuel. They're better managers than Jerry.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 22 2010 10:18 AM Re: Maine: Mad

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Two weeks ago, I mailed Manuel a letter asking him to send me a copy of the Mets secret code book and decoder of third base coach signs ---- The Manuel Manual! You know ... so I could understand the game better when I watch it. You're setting yourself up for a massive disappointment when Chip Hale tells you to D-R-I-N-K-Y-O-U-R-O-V-A-L-T-I-N-E.

Edgy DC May 22 2010 12:35 PM Re: Maine: Mad

This is too much. Ceetar wrote: I've long since grown tired of Jerry avoiding questions by making silly jokes, whether it's at his pitcher (who he might not even be communicating with, isn't on good terms with, etc) 's expense, or Hanley Ramirez (and I'm always good to make fun of him in general). Yes, a manager who is losing is intolerable, no matter what he's doing. Ceetar wrote: Whether or not it's "all in good fun" doesn't really mean much to me. What, besides winning, would mean something? Ceetar wrote: He's making jokes about something that needs to be fixed. He's making a joke about whether he thinks a good idea that a 29-year-old righthanded pitcher should wake up one morning and teach himself to pitch with his left arm, and whether that's the way to continue getting a major leaguers out. Ceetar wrote: Making problems funny doesn't make them less of a problem. He actually wasn't asked about the problem, but rather a highly unlikely solution. And he actually didn't make it funny, but underscored the silliness of the question by answering it seriously. Ceetar wrote: And it doesn't mean the question, if it was worth being asked, doesn't deserve a legitimate answer. His thoughts on turning Maine into a lefthander weren't worth asking for and didn't deserve a legitimate answer. And he made that clear not by showing contempt for the asker, but answering with the sort of earnestness the reporter was seemingly asking for. Take it easy. Ceetar wrote: He's a clown, he's always been a clown. Maybe Mr. Met needs a helper. Making problems funny doesn't make them less of a problem.

Ceetar May 22 2010 12:41 PM Re: Maine: Mad

the thing is, the question wasn't about pitching lefty. It was actually about pitching, period. The left-handed stuff was merely exaggeration. Maine was talking about working towards his next start, and that he wants to pitch, whenever and whereever that is. (implying the bullpen would be my guess) So Manuel actually, when asked (unless the media decided to only relay the silly the part..but that's another story) about Maine's comments, ignored the part about Maine really just wanting to pitch, and answered the silly exaggerated part and avoiding the meat of the question and issue.

Edgy DC May 22 2010 01:21 PM Re: Maine: Mad

Come on, please. Your own quote: Maine swore he burned to pitch so badly he would "throw left-handed" if he had to. Informed of this claim, Manuel replied: "That's out of the question. But he might have more stuff lefty, I don't know. I might try that." So it's clear to any fair reading of that passage that Manuel was speaking very specifically in response to that one non-issue. If you're seriously claiming that that's all that Manuel had to say about Maine at that moment and during other sessions with reporters, I'm certain that this is untrue.

Ceetar May 22 2010 01:24 PM Re: Maine: Mad

Maine still was bothered by getting pulled so early when he showed up in the clubhouse Friday afternoon, but he forced himself to look forward, saying he would prepare himself for his next start - whenever and wherever that is. "I want to pitch," he said. "Even if I have to go out there and throw lefthanded, that's what I want to do. I want to go out there and pitch." "I want to pitch" is the crux of his point. He's using the lefthanded thing as emphasis. It's like if I said I was so hungry I could eat a horse..and you said you were a vegetarian.

Edgy DC May 22 2010 01:46 PM Re: Maine: Mad

"John Maine is a very, very, very competitive young man, very competitive," Manuel said. "We have to make decisions not only on him, but what's best for the team." That's four verys. That sort of quote took about five seconds to find. Manual has made several others in reponse to honoring Maine's desire to pitch. Do you really think he hasn't suffiently honored that?

Ceetar May 22 2010 01:58 PM Re: Maine: Mad

"John Maine is a very, very, very competitive young man, very competitive," Manuel said. "We have to make decisions not only on him, but what's best for the team." That's four verys. That sort of quote took about five seconds to find. Manual has made several others in reponse to honoring Maine's desire to pitch. Do you really think he hasn't suffiently honored that? The issue I'm having is with the lack of communication and the public disagreements between the two. Manuel and Warthen think Maine is hiding an injury (so they made one up and DL'd him) and that his competitiveness is so great that he's not telling them about it. (Maine said he was upset by Warthen's habitual liar comment, btw) Maine says he's fine, says he only bent over because he knew he was on a short leash (this suggests he shouldn't have been totally 'surprised' at being pulled, but I still think Manuel should've done more than just snap "you're out" on the mound and walk away. It also seems to support my point of Manuel putting so much pressure on each start and batter of Maine (and Perez) and you can't approach baseball for 35 starts like each one is do or die) The biggest thing is the lack of a real plan. They sent Maine out there with Valdes warming up, but really with a "well, let's see what happens" attitude. Then they pulled him. They didn't decide to send him to a doctor, despite talking about it, until so late Friday that his replacement couldn't even make it to the game on time. I understand it's three against one (Warthen, Manuel, and Barajas said he didn't think he looked right either) about whether or not Maine is actually injured, but comments like this do not seem to be a good managing style: "My gut tells me there's something there physically," Manuel said, "but I could be wrong." I understand not wanting to play short, so DL him, I do, but why not actually send him for tests sooner rather than later? Why not on Friday like they originally said? why wait until next week? What if Maine is telling the truth and is completely cleared? (Do the Mets get in trouble for making up an injury to put a guy on the DL if that happens? I could see the player association having an issue with that.) Also, on the "habitual liar" angle, Maine says he looked at tape and his mechanics were normal and he claims he got up to 89mph on his last two pitches. (gameday off mlb.com claims 85 on his three fastballs)

Edgy DC May 22 2010 02:14 PM Re: Maine: Mad

Ceetar wrote: The issue I'm having is with the lack of communication and the public disagreements between the two. You were taking issue with that exact quote --- and continuing to argue the issue --- and now you're just obscuring it.

Ceetar May 22 2010 02:32 PM Re: Maine: Mad

Edgy DC wrote: Ceetar wrote: The issue I'm having is with the lack of communication and the public disagreements between the two. You were taking issue with that exact quote --- and continuing to argue the issue --- and now you're just obscuring it. The quote just represents the issue. Either way, Maine's admitted to pain now, though still says he doesn't think it was a DL thing, so I guess Manuel and Warthen are validated in some respect. Still doesn't explain why they didn't send him to the doc yesterday and possibly avoid the DL. I know I'm never going to hear it, but I want to know if he felt this pain before he switched up his mechanics. Peterson was a guy that was always harping on bad pitching mechanics, and this pain was something cropped up well after Rick left. Warthen altered Maine's mechanics this spring, but it wasn't actually working for Maine, so he switched back, and now he feels the pain again.

batmagadanleadoff May 23 2010 09:27 AM Re: Maine: Mad

Maine comes clean. The pitching coach Dan Warthen called Maine a “habitual liar” about his health. That also upset Maine, who claimed he felt no pain or discomfort in his shoulder. But finally on Saturday Maine acknowledged that there was a problem with his shoulder. He will have more extensive tests Monday to see if doctors can determine what is wrong. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/23/sport ... 3mets.html

Rockin' Doc May 23 2010 10:41 AM Re: Maine: Mad

In a video I had seen following his 5 pitch start in Washington, Maine acknowledged pitching with pain in his right shoulder, but he downplayed it by saying he had pitched with pain for the past two years. Apparently the surgery to remove the bone spurs in his shoulder did not alleviate the pain and discomfort.

Ceetar May 23 2010 10:46 AM Re: Maine: Mad

Rockin' Doc wrote: In a video I had seen following his 5 pitch start in Washington, Maine acknowledged pitching with pain in his right shoulder, but he downplayed it by saying he had pitched with pain for the past two years. Apparently the surgery to remove the bone spurs in his shoulder did not alleviate the pain and discomfort. well, I'd certainly lie about pain if I knew not only would I not get to pitch anymore, but the docs wouldn't know how to fix it. This doesn't bode well.

Edgy DC May 23 2010 11:31 AM Re: Maine: Mad

The pain of Maine would drive ceetar to feign. Are you suggesting his lying is somehow Manuel's fault?

Ceetar May 23 2010 11:40 AM Re: Maine: Mad

Edgy DC wrote: The pain of Maine would drive ceetar to feign. Are you suggesting his lying is somehow Manuel's fault? No. I guess I give kudos to Manuel and Warthen for guessing right. (i still have plenty of issue with how it was handled) I wish they'd had more reasoning than "my gut tells me" but they were right. How right, is yet to be determined, and how to fix Maine is the biggest issue, because he's had plenty of success when he's healthy, and the Mets need him. Actually, if Maine was feeling pain still post surgery last year when he pitched, that's probably when he should've spoken up. I can definitely believe he was pitching with pain all year. He did hit 92-93 once or twice on the gun, and also 87-88, with his fastball. The biggest problem he had was that his slider/change is 82-83, which is too close. If he could've slowed that down, he still would've had plenty of success. I really wonder if him switching his mechanics again made this problem worse, or if all the extra side-work he was doing to readjust said mechanics was too much for his shoulder. I even said in the offseason that I hope they find ways to get Maine an extra day when they can, because all his injuries always seemed fatigued/strain type injuries, and maybe rest and limiting his between-start work (something Warthen cited this offseason as well, although if they kept up with it, especially after he readjusted, I have no idea) was something that was needed to make him last the whole season, pain free.

themetfairy Jun 13 2010 04:21 PM Re: Maine: Mad

Maine pitched a rehab start with the B-Mets in Trenton today. The good news is that he didn't give up any runs in 4 innings. The bad news is that he threw too many pitches, including too many first pitch balls. But overall, it seemed like a successful first game back.