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Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

batmagadanleadoff Jun 24 2010 03:03 PM

SNY reports that the Mets and Twins are the front-runners to obtain Cliff Lee. The rumor is that the Mets will send Pagan and Mejia to obtain the lefty.

metsguyinmichigan Jun 24 2010 03:11 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

I'd see that if they were able to sign Lee. But as a rental? Yeeech.

Benjamin Grimm Jun 24 2010 03:11 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

I find myself not rooting for that to happen. Seems to me it will hurt more than help.

Gwreck Jun 24 2010 03:12 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

I'd do it. Sounds good to me.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 24 2010 03:13 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

I don;t much like that. How about Beltran and Parnell?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jun 24 2010 03:18 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Here's whence it came. That makes sense. Let's do it! Oh, wait, Lee being magically transformed to be 5 years younger and being signed for 3 years isn't part of the deal? Then no deal.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 24 2010 03:19 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

I don't have an opinion on this proposed and rumored trade yet, but it just occurred to me that Floyd Youmans was as highly touted, if not more so, than Mejia currently is. Also, SNY is now clarifying that it is the Mariners and not the Mets that have proposed the Pagan/Mejia for Lee deal.

Benjamin Grimm Jun 24 2010 03:27 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

I'm more concerned about losing Pagan than Mejia, I think. It relies too heavily on Beltran, who's a total wild card at this point. If Beltran can't answer the bell, who's the backup? Jesus Feliciano? I fear that Pagan's absence would hurt more than Lee's presence would help.

TransMonk Jun 24 2010 03:35 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

I just find it refreshing that we have more than enough pieces to be involved in the rumor for what is likely to be the biggest deadline name this season. Pagan/Mejia is too much unless we can guarantee an extension negotiation and they throw in a AAA CF. IMO Pagan/Mejia are worth more than the players we sent to Minny in the Santana deal.

Centerfield Jun 24 2010 03:48 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Funny how fast things change. Six months ago I jump at that deal. Now, I wouldn't touch it.

Kong76 Jun 24 2010 04:24 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Too much of Pagan fan at this point to ship him off ... wouldn't care if Beltran never plays here again. I can't see scratching your way into first place and then getting rid of one of the big reasons why you did.

metirish Jun 24 2010 04:48 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

It's a funny game alright , Pagan goes from fourth outfielder to prized possession/bait in less than half a season. I'm really not sure what to make of this at all , Lee won his 6th in a row last night? Poll on a Texas site about lee http://www.lonestarball.com/2010/6/24/1 ... trade-poll

Frayed Knot Jun 24 2010 05:08 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

I think that sounds like a fair deal - as in fair for both sides - keeping in mind that there's nothing in that article suggesting it's anything other than names being thrown against the wall. But, yeah, it would be a tough one to make with Beltran being as uncertain as he is - and the dilemma is that the longer you wait to make it the fewer starts you'd get out of Lee. Right now you're probably looking at about 17 or 18 and will lose one for every five days that a deal isn't made, starts that you'll never get back on the other end.

Edgy DC Jun 24 2010 05:50 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Thing is that you can always convince yourself that you need more pitching and the grass is greener over there. Our pitching rocks. It takes guts to stand pat. Show some guts.

Fman99 Jun 24 2010 08:48 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Edgy DC wrote: Our pitching rocks. It takes guts to stand pat. Show some guts. I'm waffling but I think ultimately this is where I'm at. It's working, don't touch it. Don't fuck it up.

smg58 Jun 24 2010 09:21 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Mejia was more valuable than any of the three prospects the Phillies got when the deal happened, and he's a lot more valuable now as the top two guys in that deal have crashed and burned this year. (I hope the Phillies fans enjoyed Lee, and their dominance of the division, while it lasted.) The Mariners set Lee's market themselves, and Mejia is worth more than two months of Lee. Even given Tak's performance tonight, I don't see the rotation as it's currently structured as being broken and in need of fixing. It's certainly possible that midnight will strike for Dickey and Takahashi, but I'm willing to wait a month to see if it actually happens. I'd be sniffing around instead for an eighth-inning guy and an upgrade at second base.

Valadius Jun 24 2010 09:37 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

No...

Nymr83 Jun 24 2010 10:53 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Well you don't just get 2 months of Lee, you either get 2 months + you sign him or you get 2 months + 2 compensation picks, including potentially a first rounder. Given that, I'd say Pagan + Mejia is fair.... but I wouldn't do it. I think the Mets are on the verge and would happily deal Mejia for a guy like Lee, but Pagan is too valuable, at least until we see Beltran out there 7 days a week healthy and producing.

OlerudOwned Jun 24 2010 10:59 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

It'd be a huge, huge, huge upgrade to the rotation. But one that may not be worth it when it's being taken right out of the offense and outfield. If Beltran doesn't return healthy, it's hard to imagine the Mets making a deep run with Francoeur and, yeesh, Feliciano or someone as everyday outfielders.

Zvon Jun 25 2010 12:13 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

They do this I'll be pissed. Omar, prove your the GM I always thought you'd be and get Lee without doing this deal. Beltran is gearing up for one thing. His contract year. Now this stage might suit his purposes the best, and we will reap the benefits of that when he returns, if he is healthy, but right now Pagan is center stage and shining. And he's got a four years on Beltran, who might be limping off into the sunset for all we know. Nope, Pagans too valuable to us. What he brings is a real nice fit for this stadium. I have not seen enough of Mejia to say he can't play the pawn along with some other piece(s). I would like to see him develop as a Met, but I think I wanna make the post season more this year. There has got to be a better way to go about getting Lee.

soupcan Jun 25 2010 07:44 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

If Lee is only going to be a rental I'd be averse to even giving them Mejia. For a rental they get a pitching prospect and a young position player that the Mets have no place for. Maybe throw another body at them as well. If Lee will negotiate an extension, well then we're talking. Give them Mejia and Fartinez and let them pick another hotshot from the minors. If they are bent on Pagan, I'd consider it and maybe I'd pull the trigger on that gambling that Beltran will be okay. I've said it before and I'll say it again - I'm jealous of a guy like Omar, but in reality I couldn't do that job.

Edgy DC Jun 25 2010 07:47 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

smg58 wrote: It's certainly possible that midnight will strike for Dickey and Takahashi, but I'm willing to wait a month to see if it actually happens. It's certainly possible that midnight will strike for Santana, Niese, and Pelfrey, also. The issue is how likely that is and how dark it'll get then. But sure, wait and see who the market comes to.

metsmarathon Jun 25 2010 08:18 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

according to fangraphs, thus far this season, cliff lee is the best pitcher in the majors, at 3.7 WAR. 1. cliff lee 3.7 2. francisco liriano 3.6 3. roy halladay 3.5 4. ubaldo jiminez 3.3 5. josh johnson 3.2 thus far this season, angel pagan is the fifth best centerfielder in the majors, at 2.5 WAR, while jenrry mejia sits at -0.1 WAR. for this season, and presuming that the performances we've seen thus far would continue (ie no improvement from mejia or regression from pagan) the trade would net us just over one win. maybe approaching a win and a half. i'm not sure it's worth it. if we could make this trade without giving up pagan, that would be a very helpful thing to do for this season. is it worth mejia and fartinez? um... i dunno...

soupcan Jun 25 2010 08:21 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

metsmarathon wrote: is it worth mejia and fartinez? um... i dunno... Is it worth Fartinez & Mejia if Lee signs an extension? I think so.

Edgy DC Jun 25 2010 08:27 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Maybe, but (1) we likely won't get that up front, and (2) not all extensions are equal.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 25 2010 08:32 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Pretty sure it's out there that Lee ain't signing an extension under any circumstances.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 25 2010 08:34 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

I'm still undecided as to whether I'd be willing to part with Pagan and Mejia, but I disagree with those that would resist acquiring Lee on grounds that the Mets rotation is fine as it is. You can never get enough top of the rotation pitching. I don't know if it applies here, but a baseball peeve of mine is hearing a team say they're looking for a number five pitcher, or a number four pitcher. What the hell does that mean? If it applies to the Mets, does it mean that they're looking for someone who's better than Ollie and Maine, but who shouldn't be better than Dickey because to be better than Dickey would break the deal? Always get the best pitcher out there (at the right price, of course).

TransMonk Jun 25 2010 08:59 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

batmagadanleadoff wrote: You can never get enough top of the rotation pitching. Yup.

soupcan Jun 25 2010 09:02 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Pretty sure it's out there that Lee ain't signing an extension under any circumstances. I know, I know. Just sayin'. batmagadanleadoff wrote: ...a baseball peeve of mine is hearing a team say they're looking for a number five pitcher, or a number four pitcher. What the hell does that mean? I take that to mean how much they want to pay a guy and/or how much they'd be willing to give up to get a guy.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jun 25 2010 09:09 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

metsmarathon wrote: according to fangraphs, thus far this season, cliff lee is the best pitcher in the majors, at 3.7 WAR. 1. cliff lee 3.7 2. francisco liriano 3.6 3. roy halladay 3.5 4. ubaldo jiminez 3.3 5. josh johnson 3.2 thus far this season, angel pagan is the fifth best centerfielder in the majors, at 2.5 WAR, while jenrry mejia sits at -0.1 WAR. for this season, and presuming that the performances we've seen thus far would continue (ie no improvement from mejia or regression from pagan) the trade would net us just over one win. maybe approaching a win and a half. i'm not sure it's worth it. if we could make this trade without giving up pagan, that would be a very helpful thing to do for this season. is it worth mejia and fartinez? um... i dunno... Plus, Pagan's still controllable (arb-wise) for another year (IIRC), while Mejia's remaining cheap for the better part of 5-6 years. You're trading that as well for the 1-1.5 WAR. Additionally, keep in mind as well that, should the trade go through and the Mets let him walk post-season, the compensatory draft picks the Mets would receive would be something like a high-20s-to-low-30s pick (since the teams with a realistic shot to sign Lee are a pretty exclusive bunch) and a mid-to-high 30s pick to go with.

Vic Sage Jun 25 2010 09:17 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

It depends on how seriously we're taking the Mets this year. Right now, we're the 3rd best record in the NL. Lee is 31, not 41, and is one of the top pitchers in BB. Our "ace", has lost the lustre on his fastball and, while still pretty good, is no longer great. Our 2 & 3 are young pitchers with talent but "young pitcher" inconsistency. Our #4 is a middle-aged AAAA pitcher with a trick pitch who has fooled major league hitters for about a month. Our #5 is ineffective after the 1st time thru a lineup. So Lee knocks everybody down a slot making the rotation pretty strong, putting takahashi back in the pen and so strengthening that, too. When Beltran comes back, Pagan returns to being the 4th outfielder he's been for the last 5 years. He's 29, and i don't trust that he'll maintain this level of production. His career has been about injuries, and he's just "tweaked" something in his back. and Mejia has talent, sure, but who knows? All we do know for sure is that he never grabbed a very available slot as F-Rod's setup guy this year, despite Jerry's support, and he's a 2-pitch 20 year old who has a very real shot at being 21, but anything else is pure speculation and wishful thinking. If the Mets think Beltran is coming back in the next 2-3 weeks (without a significant limp), they should do this deal. If they're still dubious about Beltran, see if Seattle will take a package of 2-3 prospects (including Mejia). But i think we have serious post-season possibilities with 3+ months (and a post-season) of Lee this year (and either extending him thereafter, or getting 2 1st rounders next year). The TiTTS say "yea, verily, yea."

Edgy DC Jun 25 2010 09:17 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Plus, Pagan's still controllable (arb-wise) for another year (IIRC), while Mejia's remaining cheap for the better part of 5-6 years. You're trading that as well for the 1-1.5 WAR. Maybe moreso.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 25 2010 09:18 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

soupcan wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: ...a baseball peeve of mine is hearing a team say they're looking for a number five pitcher, or a number four pitcher. What the hell does that mean? I take that to mean how much they want to pay a guy and/or how much they'd be willing to give up to get a guy. Well .... ya get what ya pay for.

Gwreck Jun 25 2010 09:34 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Vic Sage wrote: It depends on how seriously we're taking the Mets this year. Right now, we're the 3rd best record in the NL. While technically true that's not very descriptive. We are tied with Atlanta in the loss column and 1 game back of San Diego.

Vic Sage Jun 25 2010 09:36 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Gwreck wrote: Vic Sage wrote: It depends on how seriously we're taking the Mets this year. Right now, we're the 3rd best record in the NL. While technically true that's not very descriptive. We are tied with Atlanta in the loss column and 1 game back of San Diego. great, that's more descriptive and doesn't change my point one iota. we're near the half-way point of the season and we're on a pace for 90+ wins, and close enough to make a serious run at the pennant this season, since no teams have run away from the pack.

metsmarathon Jun 25 2010 10:09 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

and, of course, if we are to make the playoffs, lee then becomes much more valuable than pagan in a short series.

TransMonk Jun 25 2010 10:37 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

metsmarathon wrote: and, of course, if we are to make the playoffs, lee then becomes much more valuable than pagan in a short series. Yup.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jun 25 2010 10:44 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

metsmarathon wrote: and, of course, if we are to make the playoffs, lee then becomes much more valuable than pagan in a short series. And that would be whence the lion's share of Lee's value comes. To my mind, it's a trade you may seriously consider making if the team looks nigh-guaranteed to make the playoffs in a month. Right now, with Beltran a question mark, and the pennant race not even yet begun, if you're a responsible steward of the team, you really can't pull the trigger on this... or seriously consider doing this anytime soon. I also just don't like trading resources when they're not at maximal value. Pagan might be close, but Mejia is nowhere near-a.

seawolf17 Jun 25 2010 11:20 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Good to see I'm not the only person who's drinking the Pagan Juice. I'd probably make that deal now before everyone realizes that his comparable career guys (according to B-R.com) are guys like Mitch Webster and Timo Perez.

Gwreck Jun 25 2010 12:08 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

I suppose it's possible that Pagan was one of those oft-injured, oft-overlooked guys who finally developed into a solid player but I too am of the mind that we're getting maximum return from him and accordingly am of the opinion that we could trade him without losing too much.

seawolf17 Jun 25 2010 12:11 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Gwreck wrote: I suppose it's possible that Pagan was one of those oft-injured, oft-overlooked guys who finally developed into a solid player but I too am of the mind that we're getting maximum return from him and accordingly am of the opinion that we could trade him without losing too much. If only we had another centerfielder to get us through to Carlos. Hey, is GMJ still available?

Ashie62 Jun 25 2010 12:15 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Doesn't help that Pagan is tweaked. Beyond that, I'm ambivalent on the proposal. Sometimes you don't have to do anything.

soupcan Jun 25 2010 12:22 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Kojak Feliciano went 3-5 with 2 runs scored last night. Again - Just sayin'.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jun 25 2010 12:46 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

How'd Endy's knee heal over in Texas, anyway?

Zvon Jun 25 2010 01:46 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

soupcan wrote: If Lee is only going to be a rental I'd be averse to even giving them Mejia. For a rental they get a pitching prospect and a young position player that the Mets have no place for. Maybe throw another body at them as well. If Lee will negotiate an extension, well then we're talking. Give them Mejia and Fartinez and let them pick another hotshot from the minors. If they are bent on Pagan, I'd consider it and maybe I'd pull the trigger on that gambling that Beltran will be okay. I've said it before and I'll say it again - I'm jealous of a guy like Omar, but in reality I couldn't do that job. Ill go with that trade. Omar has done enough gambling the last few years. I think he's a good GM. He's a bad gambler.

metirish Jun 27 2010 08:13 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Mejia pulled from his start today with shoulder stiffnes.

MFS62 Jun 28 2010 07:22 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

seawolf17 wrote: Gwreck wrote: I suppose it's possible that Pagan was one of those oft-injured, oft-overlooked guys who finally developed into a solid player but I too am of the mind that we're getting maximum return from him and accordingly am of the opinion that we could trade him without losing too much. If only we had another centerfielder to get us through to Carlos. Hey, is GMJ still available? And J. Feliciano is running around the clubhouse asking who Wally Pipps was. Later

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jun 28 2010 10:47 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

MFS62 wrote: seawolf17 wrote: Gwreck wrote: I suppose it's possible that Pagan was one of those oft-injured, oft-overlooked guys who finally developed into a solid player but I too am of the mind that we're getting maximum return from him and accordingly am of the opinion that we could trade him without losing too much. If only we had another centerfielder to get us through to Carlos. Hey, is GMJ still available? And J. Feliciano is running around the clubhouse asking who Wally Pipps was. I have to check my MLB Reference Stylebook to be sure, but I think you have to have the starting job for more than a third of a season before you're eligible for being Pipped. I'm happy for the Mejia stiffness-- as it now stands-- if only because it keeps them from trading him.

metirish Jun 28 2010 10:58 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

This from Ken Davidoff in an article imploring the Mets to " go for it"......a loss of two and that will change Alas, the day didn't bring only positive developments for the Mets. Jenrry Mejia, the prodigal former mop-up man, left his start for Double-A Binghamton after one-plus innings, citing stiffness in his right shoulder. The Mets didn't want to include Mejia in a trade package for Seattle's Cliff Lee anyway, but if Mejia goes down for even a short while, that 1) eliminates him as a trade chip; 2) deletes him from the Mets' internal depth chart for starting pitchers and 3) pretty much confirms that this year was a fiasco for the 20-year-old righthander. http://www.newsday.com/sports/columnist ... -1.2058813

Edgy DC Jun 28 2010 11:25 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

I disagree with all three of those hysterical points.

Zvon Jun 28 2010 12:06 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

metirish wrote: http://www.newsday.com/sports/columnist ... -1.2058813 Never heard of Ken. I thought this was a Madoff joke involving Wright. How many hoops ya gotta jump thru to read that article? Oy.

seawolf17 Jun 28 2010 12:31 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Edgy DC wrote: I disagree with all three of those hysterical points. Two of the three, anyway. I don't think they're going to trade him if he's hurt.

Edgy DC Jun 28 2010 12:48 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Which isn't the equal of the idea that even a short injury break eliminates him as a trade chip.

Edgy DC Jun 30 2010 08:07 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Nicely written summary of the Cliff Lee Experience.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jun 30 2010 01:17 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

In the Post blog, Joel Sherman makes some points (some more salient than others) about midseason trades and prospect valuation, and a few more thoughts on Lee-to-the-Mets: Now there is some precedent for trading Lee for far less than his value. The Indians dealt Lee to the Phillies in July last year with 1 1-2 years remaining on the lefty’s contract, and received back four pieces that – to date – would be described as underwhelming. But the Indians felt the desperation to dump salary, which the Mariners are not going to feel. Lee was traded from the Phillies to the Mariners with one year left on Lee’s contract for three prospects who do not overly excite teams. But Philadelphia had just obtained Roy Halladay and felt a pressing – and probably foolhardy – need to try and restock its system rather than uniting Halladay and Lee to become the unquestioned powerhouse of the NL. I don’t believe the Mets, for example, would trade Ike Davis for all seven of those prospects that were dealt in the last year for Lee. So interested teams might say, “hey, in those trades Lee had a year and a half and then a year left on his contract and the packages for him were not Grade A, so why should we give up a Grade-A prospect now with just a half year left on Lee’s deal?” It is a good question. My answer is this: I don’t think Mariners GM Jack Zduriencik will make the same mistake. I have known Zduriencik a long time, going back to his days more than a decade ago when he worked in the Mets front office. I think I know him well enough that he is not interested in quantity like in the previous deals as much as quality. Zduriencik’s background is mostly filled with working on the draft, so he is not going to be horrified to simply keep Lee, offer Lee arbitration when the lefty becomes a free agent and accept the two first-round draft picks that come with that. He will always believe that he can find top players in the first round of a draft. So regardless of what happened in recent Lee deals, in this one, I believe, Zduriencik is going to have to believe he got something far better than those two picks in order to trade those two picks (remember an acquiring team would have the same options once Lee becomes a free agent) plus, you know, also get Lee, a pitcher Zduriencik knows chances (sic) the dynamic of any race he enters. The Mariners are going to need a no-brainer, blue-chip prospect – in other words someone with far, far, far more valuable than Angel Pagan. Pagan is the level of player that is included to round out a deal. For the Mets, the first piece probably has to be either Jenrry Mejia or Wilmer Flores. The Mariners did scout Mejia extensively in the Arizona Fall League and liked his arm, but they don’t like him as an overall prospect nearly as much as, say, Jesus Montero. Also, Mejia’s current rotator cuff injury – though possibly minor – will make him less appetizing to Seattle. Flores will depart this season almost certainly as one of the 20 best prospects in the minors. He is an 18-year-old shortstop who was recently promoted from Low- to High-A, and in his first six games in the Florida State League, Flores is hitting .481. This is merely my belief and not something told to me by either Mariner or Mets officials, but I think the Mets can get Lee for a package that looks something like this: Flores plus an outfielder from among Pagan or Double-A lefty swingers Kirk Nieuwenhuis or Sean Ratliff, whose five homers in his first 58 at-bats since being promoted From A-ball has caught scouts’ eyes, and a third piece from among infield prospects Reese Havens or Jordany Valdespin or pitchers Bobby Parnell, Brad Holt or Jeurys Familia. Assuming for argument's sake that the either/or he proposes above is true, would you rather give up the 18-year-old, three-years-away-at-least hitting prospect... or the much, much closer possible top-line starter without consistent secondary stuff? (Also... it does seem from the chatter that Thole's a desired commodity, as well.)

Frayed Knot Jun 30 2010 02:05 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

IIRC, Sherman was the guy who praised Mariners GM Jack Zduriencik prior to the season - "look who these idiot Mets let get away" - while the Ms were everyone's pre-season trendy breakthrough pick (how's that working out?). Not that a poor half-season is proof that he won't make a good GM, only that it's not as automatic as we were led to believe and if his moves were golden then Lee wouldn't be up for discussion. But if Zduriencik is determined to hold out for top prospects there's always a point at which you walk away. There's always some other fish in the sea (Oswalt et al) and you can let some other team pay his ransom. He can also follow through on the implied threat to take the draft picks although that's frequently not nearly the no-brainer it's made out to be. Depending on who signs him, those picks could be as high as upper-teens or as low as the 50s or 60s; choices probably less sure to make it to MLB than even those less than blue-chippers already halfway through the minors. As for Sherman's packages -- a three-for-one suggestions involving Flores plus two good pieces sound too pricey to me. As far as Thole, I don't let him stand in the way of almost any deal. I'm not convinced he's anything other than a backup in the future.

MFS62 Jul 08 2010 10:03 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Instead of lee, here's an idea seen on a members only website: Cubs Are Getting More Serious About Trades By Mike Axisa [July 7 at 5:19pm CST] The Cubs have yet to declare themselves buyers or sellers despite a 37-47 record, but Ken Davidoff of Newsday tweets that the team is starting to get "more serious" about making deals. Davidoff also mentions that the Mets "like the idea" of adding Ted Lilly to their rotation while assuming the $6MM left on his contract in order to give up fewer prospects in a trade. Lilly is just one of several pieces the Cubs could shop, along with Ryan Theriot, Mike Fontenot, Jeff Baker, Derrek Lee, Kosuke Fukudome, and Xavier Nady. The Giants could have interest in Theriot and Chicago tried to push Fukudome on the Red Sox, but nothing has materialized just yet. The Mets have expressed interest in adding a quality starter, and Lilly would certainly fit the bill. There is some uncertainty about the team's ability to add payroll however, so whether or not they can actually take on Lilly's salary remains to be seen. EDIT: Is it too early to start a trading deadline rumors thread? Later

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 08 2010 10:30 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee??? Edited 3 time(s), most recently on Jul 08 2010 10:38 AM

If Johan's got his sea legs back, the idea of a Lilly trade-- for FernyMart? Kirk?-- is far more appetizing to me than, say, moving Mejia and Flores for Lee (the current winds of rumor seem to be blowing out figures like "two blue-chip prospects and one additional young player").

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 08 2010 10:35 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Other topics today on the Members Only website: How Many Zippers Should a Shiny Coat Need? Elastic Waistbands: They're Coming Back! Michael J: What a Fox! srsly, you needed to cut and paste from your secret website when googling Ted Lilly turns up: Cubs' Lilly moving to Mets? Yahoo! Sports - Mark J. Miller - ?5 hours ago? The paper reports that the New York Mets "like the idea" of bringing Cubs starter (and former New York Yankee) Ted Lilly(notes) back to New York City. ... Ted Lilly: Report: Mets 'like the idea' of adding Lilly Rotoworld.com Possible Trade Deadline Scenarios: Part 1 Bleacher Report Ted Lilly Being Shopped, Derrek Lee as Well Cubbies Crib (blog)

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 08 2010 10:39 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Other topics today on the Members Only website: How Many Zippers Should a Shiny Coat Need? Elastic Waistbands: They're Coming Back! Michael J: What a Fox! Coffee doesn't taste nearly as good going backwards through my noise. Also, that seems to be from MLBTradeRumors.com.

Ashie62 Jul 08 2010 01:36 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Thole and Mejia for Lee & Megan Fox.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 08 2010 02:10 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

I read yesterday that Megan Fox has ugly thumbs. Despite that, I still think she's okay.

seawolf17 Jul 08 2010 02:15 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Ashie62 wrote: Thole and Mejia for Lee & Megan Fox. I'd even throw in Maine AND Ollie to make that deal happen.

bmfc1 Jul 09 2010 03:16 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Joel Sherman tells us to forget it and to starting hating Lee: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/yankees/ ... Vdd02uuU1I

seawolf17 Jul 09 2010 07:09 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

bmfc1 wrote: Joel Sherman tells us to forget it and to starting hating Lee: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/yankees/ ... Vdd02uuU1I Ordinarily, I'm in favor of a free-market system in MLB. But the commissioner MUST step in and not allow this. The best third baseman, the best shortstop, the best second baseman, the best first baseman, the best catcher, the best feisty backup catcher, the best closer, the best fat middle reliever, the best young starter, the best left-handed starter (old guy division), the best left-handed starter (fat guy division), and now the best left-handed starter (young guy division)? Bud needs to put a stop to this.

smg58 Jul 09 2010 07:59 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

I'd have thought that Montero's stock would have dropped this season. (He has a lower OPS than Fernando Martinez.) Adams has decent value, but he's hardly earth-shattering. With every buyer in the league talking to the Mariners, I would think that they can do better, or at least demand more from the Yankees.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 09 2010 08:19 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

smg58 wrote: I'd have thought that Montero's stock would have dropped this season. (He has a lower OPS than Fernando Martinez.) Adams has decent value, but he's hardly earth-shattering. With every buyer in the league talking to the Mariners, I would think that they can do better, or at least demand more from the Yankees. All the value's in Montero's bat, too, right? I recall a lot of talk about the defense... moreso than there ever has been about, say, Thole. (Of course, the cynic might say that might be due at least in part to nobody outside of Met fan circles really talking about Thole.)

seawolf17 Jul 09 2010 08:40 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

I like how Yankee fans talked about Montero as the second coming of Yogi/Thurman/Posada/Wynegar all in one guy for months, but now as soon as he's being dealt, he's a replaceable spare part.

metirish Jul 09 2010 09:52 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Heyan tweets SI_JonHeyman cant blame #mets for not trading ike davis or niese for lee. mejia injury killed their chances. tejada/f-mart just not enuf Sherman Joelsherman1 Will put up link momentarily with new news on #Lee, including that #Yankees have not asked for negotiating window and why I would have been really pissed to see Ike or Niese go in a trade for Lee.

Edgy DC Jul 09 2010 09:54 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Offer Pat Strange and see if they bite.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 09 2010 09:56 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

F Cliff Lee and F the MFYs.

Gwreck Jul 09 2010 09:58 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

I would like to see Omar step in and make a last minute counteroffer.

Frayed Knot Jul 09 2010 10:09 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

smg58 wrote: I'd have thought that Montero's stock would have dropped this season. (He has a lower OPS than Fernando Martinez.) Adams has decent value, but he's hardly earth-shattering. With every buyer in the league talking to the Mariners, I would think that they can do better, or at least demand more from the Yankees. And they might yet. Reportedly the Mariners had just signaled a willingness to lower their demands for Lee and the Yanx - conveniently in town at the time - jumped in with an offer. Sherman of the Post may have jumped the gun a bit on how close to a done deal this is as it's certainly in the M's interest to see what other teams are willing to ante up based on their supposed new standards. All the value's in Montero's bat, too, right? I recall a lot of talk about the defense... moreso than there ever has been about, say, Thole. (Of course, the cynic might say that might be due at least in part to nobody outside of Met fan circles really talking about Thole.) Yeah, pretty much. Montero is a big hulking guy (and was even as a teen) and that bulk mixed with a complete lack of speed not only hurts him as a catcher (reports constantly talk about his defensive 'improvement' but folks wonder if it'll ever be enough) but also means he really has no other options except 1B where the Yanx already have a real one who's signed for the next 457 years. No one thinks he moves well enough for even a corner OF spot now and guys his size don't tend to get a lot quicker and trimmer as they age. He's also off with the bat this year in AAA - particularly in the power dept. On the other hand he was considered an elite bat as he blew through A & AA last year and won't even turn 21 until this season is over. Don't know nothin' about this 2B prospect.

OlerudOwned Jul 09 2010 10:18 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

I think Fartinez and Flores is a package worth at least as much as Montero/Adams, but all the reports since this mess started have been that Seattle wants a catcher. Finicky assholes.

Ashie62 Jul 09 2010 10:22 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

So much for Cliff Lee..Maine and Ollie for Megan Fox may still be on the table.

smg58 Jul 09 2010 10:27 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Montero appears to be the prospect the Mariners most coveted. They don't appear to be fazed by his struggles in AAA and if they still value him as highly as he was valued coming into the season, we weren't going to top the offer.

Edgy DC Jul 09 2010 10:29 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Bah, Joel Sherman ain't the oracle of Dodona.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 09 2010 11:50 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

smg58 wrote: Montero appears to be the prospect the Mariners most coveted. They don't appear to be fazed by his struggles in AAA and if they still value him as highly as he was valued coming into the season, we weren't going to top the offer. And as Jeff Clement and Kenji Johjima could tell you, Seattle is fantastic at evaluating the talents of offensive-minded catchers.

duan Jul 09 2010 12:30 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

can i be honest - i'd be way more upset with him going to the phillies or the braves. fuck the yankees but we only play 'em 6 times a season and the chances of us having to beat cliff lee to win the world series involve us getting to the world series. it does make you think that the whole playing thole up here might have been a last minute attempt to flutter our eyelashes at the mariners into making them think he's a genuine catching prospect.

duan Jul 09 2010 12:35 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

seawolf17 wrote: Joel Sherman tells us to forget it and to starting hating Lee: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/yankees/ ... Vdd02uuU1I Ordinarily, I'm in favor of a free-market system in MLB.. MLB's as far from a free market system as you can get (except maybe for the NFL & the NBA)

TransMonk Jul 09 2010 01:51 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Not any more, per Metsblog: According to Joel Sherman of the New York Post, the Mariners are backing off of the Yankees offer to send Cliff Lee to the Yankees. According to Sherman, the Mariners appear to be headed in a different direction, as they are concerned about the injury to Double-A prospect David Adams, who they would be acquiring in the deal, and so the Yankees no longer appear to be in the mix to acquire Lee. …wow…what a turn of events…more to come…

Frayed Knot Jul 09 2010 01:54 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Half the fun of all this is that Lee is sked to pitch against the Yanx tonight ... or FOR them, who knows.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 09 2010 01:54 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

To repeat the #Yankees aren't getting Cliff Lee, #Mariners concerned about David Adams ankle plus apparently another team has jumped in hard 5 minutes ago via web

Benjamin Grimm Jul 09 2010 02:07 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Hmmm... I wonder who? Are we going to have to watch a one-hour special on ESPN to find out?

metirish Jul 09 2010 02:19 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Hmmm... I wonder who? Are we going to have to watch a one-hour special on ESPN to find out? It will be on SNY , hosted by Bobby O and Carlin , three hours of SNY's signature original programming first, Beer Money.

Edgy DC Jul 09 2010 02:49 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Sherman reverses himself. Shocker.

TransMonk Jul 09 2010 02:53 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

F'n shocker.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 09 2010 03:08 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Whoomp, there it is. Joel 'Sure Thing' Sherman wrote: i have learned deal done with #Rangers, Smoak and 3 others for Lee and reliever Mark Lowe #Rangers, #Mariners =#004000]11 minutes ago via web

TransMonk Jul 09 2010 03:10 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Better the Rangers than the MFYs. We still need a pitcher. We need an Oswalt/Lilly/other thread, stat!

Frayed Knot Jul 09 2010 03:23 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

I really wish they had waited until tomorrow so Lee could stick it to the Yanx tonight but whatyagonnado? Smoak is the big prize there. He was considered THE big college 1B in the same draft as Ike when about 6 of them went in the first 20 picks -- Smoak went 11th, Ike 18th. He was called up just after Ike but isn't off to as good a start. So figure that any NYM trade for Lee would have likely started with the words: Ike plus ... Do you do Ike + Thole for instance? I would have prior to the season but I don't think I do now. Ike is better than I hoped and Lee has pitched more than half the season with someone else.

duan Jul 09 2010 03:49 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

seriously, this is as good as we could get. He's not signing an extension with anyone still technically owned by Tom total fuckwit leveraged buyout Hicks, so if we want him next year we can get him for a draft pick and shit loads of dough. the skankees won't sign him having been publically humiliated cause of sherman. (well that last bit might be wrong, but I'm dreaming !)

Valadius Jul 09 2010 06:10 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

I am very much down with this trade. After all the years where Texas lacked pitching, they get one of the most coveted pitchers in baseball. Anything to keep him from the MFYs.

DocTee Jul 09 2010 06:13 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Oswalt would've been better for Texas. Apparently Lee has not had much success at Arlington through the years (ERA over 7.00)

Edgy DC Jul 09 2010 06:24 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Yeah, acquired by a bankrupt team, tough. But Nolan Ryan's group will likely take over with some available capital this offseason.

Ashie62 Jul 09 2010 09:56 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Edgy DC wrote: Yeah, acquired by a bankrupt team, tough. But Nolan Ryan's group will likely take over with some available capital this offseason. The financing is in motion.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 10 2010 08:27 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

DocTee wrote: Oswalt would've been better for Texas. Apparently Lee has not had much success at Arlington through the years (ERA over 7.00) Barring some dense, dense fog conditions, Lee also won't be pitching against Texas this go-round.

metirish Jul 10 2010 10:42 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Reports are the Seattle wanted a major league ready player they could play right now, when they looked at the Mets they saw Davis as that player, glad he's still here.

Edgy DC Jul 10 2010 11:00 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

I'm glad they didn't deal him, but Martinez is certainly that player also.

Centerfield Jul 10 2010 11:08 AM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Davis for a half year rental? Kudos to Omar. This team can't afford to lose any more offense.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 10 2010 12:56 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

I guess this means Mike Carp is available.

Ashie62 Jul 10 2010 01:37 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

Edgy DC wrote: I'm glad they didn't deal him, but Martinez is certainly that player also. I don't share your Kahnfidence on this issue.

Edgy DC Jul 10 2010 03:20 PM Re: Angel Pagan and Jenrry Mejia for Cliff Lee???

What part? That it's good that Davis wasn't given up or that Martinez is a major-league-ready talent?