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The Straw Men of Gary Cohen

Edgy DC Jul 06 2010 10:31 AM

Gary --- maybe moreso since joining the big booth and getting to hang with the handsome big shots --- has been prone to taking cheap shots at nu statistics from time to time. The one that sticks with me --- though certainly not the only one --- was on Autism Awareness Day last summer when their special guest from Autism Speaks opined on the over-use of the bunt and the giveaway outs they entail. Gary snorted back a remark about the added outs of double-plays with an unmistakeable tone that said, "Get back to talking what you know, Autism Boy --- and leave the baseball to the pros." Anyhow, Amazin' Avenue has an amazin' dissection of a similar recent Gary snort, and I hate to say it, but he deserves it. http://www.amazinavenue.com/2010/7/6/15 ... #storyjump I just wish he'd quote somebody in particular so that person could maybe call him and clarify or defend his position. Because the argument about BaBiP goes back years, and it applies very differently to pitchers and hitters. Everybody knows Rey Ordonez put the ball in play at lovely rate, but 100 years the corrections for luck and regressions toward the mean won't make him Tony Gwynn.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 06 2010 10:36 AM Re: The Straw Men of Gary Cohen

If I had any passion or memory left, I'd have pointed that out myself. Gary got in another "BABIP" crack the other night.

Edgy DC Jul 06 2010 10:40 AM Re: The Straw Men of Gary Cohen

I hear that and I think, "Hey, Gary, a misinformed fan base hurts the team. We have enough folks being willfully knuckleheaded without you encouraging them." Ben Baumer needs to take Gary to tea and tell him his skull need a Voros McCracken.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 06 2010 10:55 AM Re: The Straw Men of Gary Cohen

Think he's being willfully dismissive (latching on to an apparent "weakness" of the metric and refusing to be dissuaded), or is this just a genuine misunderstanding (on which-- to be sure-- he ladled a couple of goopy cheap shots)? I thought it was the latter. But then, he's surrounded by guys like Baumer and Berg and literally dozens of other people-- Met statheads, SNY statheads, young and sorta-mathy producers-- who could probably have given him a reasonable explanation of BABIP/regression-to-the-mean/the limits of certain metrics by now... and probably have. It would be really disappointing to me if he were the latter. I don't really see much hope for Howie in this regard, but he really does seem a different animal.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 06 2010 11:06 AM Re: The Straw Men of Gary Cohen

In a somewhat related campaign that I can't seem to muster the passion to rally around but sort of agree with, Paul Lukas has been chronicling Wayne Hagin's clunky improvisations. Lukas says fire-him-NOW!!!! though I guess if he went the way of Ted Robinson I wouldn't be surprised. I'm kind of dismayed that Wayne hasn;t gotten much better, either as a live game caller or as a partner to Howie. He's only good sometimes.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 06 2010 11:09 AM Re: The Straw Men of Gary Cohen

I'm guessing this stuff just makes his eyes glaze over. To be candid, it makes my eyes glaze over, though I know I'm capable of understanding this stuff and would have eagerly devoured it all about 25 years ago. But I don't make a living talking about baseball. If I did, I'd make more of an effort to familiarize myself with these new metrics. Maybe Gary did make that effort, but his eyes glazed over because he's not able to grasp it. Maybe it's all to mathy for him. Also, it's okay to not make an effort to understand stuff, but it's a whole nother thing to scoff at stuff you don't understand. There's way too much of that going around. (It's what drives most of the political discourse, such as it is.)

Frayed Knot Jul 06 2010 11:20 AM Re: The Straw Men of Gary Cohen

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Think he's being willfully dismissive (latching on to an apparent "weakness" of the metric and refusing to be dissuaded), or is this just a genuine misunderstanding (on which-- to be sure-- he ladled a couple of goopy cheap shots)? I thought it was the latter. But then, he's surrounded by guys like Baumer and Berg and literally dozens of other people-- Met statheads, SNY statheads, young and sorta-mathy producers-- who could probably have given him a reasonable explanation of BABIP/regression-to-the-mean/the limits of certain metrics by now... and probably have. It would be really disappointing to me if he were the latter. I don't really see much hope for Howie in this regard, but he really does seem a different animal. I suspect it is the latter. I have no idea how much he does associate with guys like Baumer and whoever but my guess is not much. Plus, although there must be young producers and so on in the SNY stable, I suspect Gary (and Keith, although maybe less so w/Ronnie) 'pre-dismiss' whatever 'new age' stuff that might come over the transom as nerdy amateurism masquerading as knowledge that falls several cuts below their accumulated smarts born out of decades of watching, calling, and playing professionally.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 06 2010 11:36 AM Re: The Straw Men of Gary Cohen

To be fair, though, I get the sense that many of the new-agers are equally dismissive of the value of decades of watching, calling, and playing professionally.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 06 2010 11:44 AM Re: The Straw Men of Gary Cohen

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I'm kind of dismayed that Wayne hasn;t gotten much better, either as a live game caller or as a partner to Howie. He's only good sometimes. Oh, a thousand times this. I mean, leaving aside the you're-not-our-guy prejudices we all harbor to some extent vis-a-vis our radio team (the Murph-Gary-Howie continuum will do that to a fanbase*)... he's just not very good at calling game action. The lags behind the action on the field, the I-think-this-is-happening-no-wait-this-is-no-wait-it's-the-first-thing reversals have seemingly been multiplying as the months wear on. He's not as bad as some other teams' guys, I suppose-- I mean, we could have someone like Dibble or Grace ear-fucking us nightly-- but that's a bit like saying Kansas City bagels aren't as bad as Oklahoma City bagels. *Although it doesn't help when, say, after a lengthy rhetorical buildup on Saturday's Mets broadcast, you pause dramatically to compare the hype around Strasburg starts... to Fernandomania. And you leave it there.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 06 2010 11:44 AM Re: The Straw Men of Gary Cohen

Benjamin Grimm wrote: To be fair, though, I get the sense that many of the new-agers are equally dismissive of the value of decades of watching, calling, and playing professionally. The really smart ones aren't. It's the folks who stand on their shoulders* who can be, and often are. *Hi! LWFS here! Please to meet, yes!

Frayed Knot Jul 06 2010 11:45 AM Re: The Straw Men of Gary Cohen

Benjamin Grimm wrote: To be fair, though, I get the sense that many of the new-agers are equally dismissive of the value of decades of watching, calling, and playing professionally. Oh yeah, there's a definite "know-it-all-ness" that permeates from parts of the on-line stats crowd, a sense that because they delve heavily into these new metrics that automatically makes them smarter than 3/4 of the personnel in ML front offices and media folks. But the retort to that shouldn't be to just cover your ears and go 'LA-LA-LA-LA ... I can't hear you' without actually having to come up with a counter-argument. * "Stats people" Gary once spit out with barely contained furor, "say there's no such thing as clutch, but I know Jeter is therefore they're wrong" * OK that may not be an exact quote but it's pretty close

Edgy DC Jul 06 2010 12:25 PM Re: The Straw Men of Gary Cohen

Yeah, similarly, I don't care if Gary's eyes glaze over. But to use your pulpit and your well-honed baritone to dismiss an idea before the faithful when you haven't fully investigated it or learned that its proponents are fully aware of its limitations is arrogant and hurtful to your listeners. There should be plenty that you do know about to discuss up there.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 06 2010 12:26 PM Re: The Straw Men of Gary Cohen

I agree with that.

Ceetar Jul 06 2010 12:49 PM Re: The Straw Men of Gary Cohen

Frayed Knot wrote: Benjamin Grimm wrote: To be fair, though, I get the sense that many of the new-agers are equally dismissive of the value of decades of watching, calling, and playing professionally. Oh yeah, there's a definite "know-it-all-ness" that permeates from parts of the on-line stats crowd, a sense that because they delve heavily into these new metrics that automatically makes them smarter than 3/4 of the personnel in ML front offices and media folks. But the retort to that shouldn't be to just cover your ears and go 'LA-LA-LA-LA ... I can't hear you' without actually having to come up with a counter-argument. * "Stats people" Gary once spit out with barely contained furor, "say there's no such thing as clutch, but I know Jeter is therefore they're wrong" I am working on a count piece actually (although I've been saying that all season and it's suddenly the All-Star break..) There are a lot of problems with the new stats that it does annoy me when people angrily adhere to them like they're hard and fast rules. (Such as a certain person seemingly actively rooting for Lastings Milledge to get his OPS over Jeff Francoeurs) Still, I think the biggest issue is not that these stats exist, and not even that may be partially flawed in some regards, it's that they're used incorrectly by so many to make determinations and allegations about guys that may not apply to a specific instance or game or situation. But they can be a powerful tool, and certainly one that broadcasters and GMs should consider as a factor. * OK that may not be an exact quote but it's pretty close

Ashie62 Jul 06 2010 12:52 PM Re: The Straw Men of Gary Cohen

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: If I had any passion or memory left, I'd have pointed that out myself. Gary got in another "BABIP" crack the other night. Gary is like that. Think of all the shots at he Phillies & MFY's.

Ashie62 Jul 06 2010 12:55 PM Re: The Straw Men of Gary Cohen

Edgy DC wrote: Yeah, similarly, I don't care if Gary's eyes glaze over. But to use your pulpit and your well-honed baritone to dismiss an idea before the faithful when you haven't fully investigated it or learned that its proponents are fully aware of its limitations is arrogant and hurtful to your listeners. There should be plenty that you do know about to discuss up there. I agree. I think we all fall into the "know it all" category at times in our professional lives at times. I do.

Fman99 Jul 06 2010 01:48 PM Re: The Straw Men of Gary Cohen

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I'm kind of dismayed that Wayne hasn;t gotten much better, either as a live game caller or as a partner to Howie. He's only good sometimes. Oh, a thousand times this. I mean, leaving aside the you're-not-our-guy prejudices we all harbor to some extent vis-a-vis our radio team (the Murph-Gary-Howie continuum will do that to a fanbase*)... he's just not very good at calling game action. The lags behind the action on the field, the I-think-this-is-happening-no-wait-this-is-no-wait-it's-the-first-thing reversals have seemingly been multiplying as the months wear on. He's not as bad as some other teams' guys, I suppose-- I mean, we could have someone like Dibble or Grace ear-fucking us nightly-- but that's a bit like saying Kansas City bagels aren't as bad as Oklahoma City bagels. *Although it doesn't help when, say, after a lengthy rhetorical buildup on Saturday's Mets broadcast, you pause dramatically to compare the hype around Strasburg starts... to Fernandomania. And you leave it there. Wayne Hagin sucks. Listening to him is like trying to watch "Smokey and the Bandit" on network TV, where every single Jackie Gleason line is overdubbed by Fred Flintstone.