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Johan's season...

metsguyinmichigan Jul 07 2010 07:51 AM

From Cerone: Santana is 6–5 with a 3.15 ERA this season, but has seven no decisions during which he allowed one run or less. That's incredible. if they score 2 runs in four of those games -- or if Frankie doesn't screw them up -- he'd be on the All-Star team and there would be none of this talk about him starting to get over the hill.

Ceetar Jul 07 2010 07:56 AM Re: Johan's season...

From Cerone: Santana is 6–5 with a 3.15 ERA this season, but has seven no decisions during which he allowed one run or less. That's incredible. if they score 2 runs in four of those games -- or if Frankie doesn't screw them up -- he'd be on the All-Star team and there would be none of this talk about him starting to get over the hill. nope, the debate would be if we really should've skipped Takahashi to make him ineligable for the Classic. Eh..tell you what. get him the run support for his WS MVP and I'm sure he'll get over it.

Edgy DC Jul 07 2010 08:07 AM Re: Johan's season...

You can get too wrapped up in getting pitchers their wins. Score runs, prevent runs, win games, and let the statisticians quibble over the credit.

TransMonk Jul 07 2010 08:09 AM Re: Johan's season...

Santana is Santana. He's our ace. He gives us a legitimate chance to win 9 out of every 10 games he starts. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I want him to be on the hill in every must-win game we play. On edit: And not for nothing, but Cincy would be a playoff team if the season ended now.

Ceetar Jul 07 2010 08:13 AM Re: Johan's season...

Edgy DC wrote: You can get too wrapped up in getting pitchers their wins. Score runs, prevent runs, win games, and let the statisticians quibble over the credit. Very true. Dusty Baker almost gave us the game on Monday trying to get his rookie (second start) a win in the 5th inning. Still, some/many players are concerned about their legacy and their records and what not, and constantly being deprived of what they might feel they deserve can mess with them. Even if it's only a nagging doubt in the back of Johan's head when he takes the mound after they failed to score with the bases loaded in the bottom of the inning.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 07 2010 08:19 AM Re: Johan's season...

I know that the Win is a flawed stat (and often completely meaningless for relief pitchers) but I do like to see a starter who puts in a good effort rewarded with a W. And I dislike seeing a good start end with an L. Managing to the win occurs a lot less often than managing to the save, so I'm not nearly as concerned about it. I remember Jerry trying to get Niese a win a week or two ago in that rain-interrupted game when Niese was in danger of letting an 8-0 lead slip away. At least Jerry stepped in before the lead went away entirely. I wish he'd do the same with Francisco Rodriguez in save situations, like on Saturday.

Ceetar Jul 07 2010 08:26 AM Re: Johan's season...

There is no such thing as an unflawed stat. It's pretty rare for a starter to get a win that he had no part in whatsoever, or a loss that he didn't contribute to. It all boils down to "Did you give up more runs than your team scored?"

Edgy DC Jul 07 2010 09:01 AM Re: Johan's season...

Ceetar wrote: Still, some/many players are concerned about their legacy and their records and what not, and constantly being deprived of what they might feel they deserve can mess with them. And the best thing we can do to keep that sort of noise out of his head --- or his batsmen's heads --- is not get too caught up in the vaguaries of who gets credit for wins and who has been lucky enough to get run support and who hasn't. Johan, you rock, you roll. Stop looking at your stat line and start looking at your bank account. And don't rape anybody.

TransMonk Jul 07 2010 09:06 AM Re: Johan's season...

Edgy DC wrote: Johan, you rock, you roll. Stop looking at your stat line and start looking at your bank account. And don't rape anybody. BOC! Does Johan ever bitch about not getting W's? I think he knows he's on a direct path to "legacy" because of his career resume and doesn't need 300 as a benchmark for anything. I have to think being a major contributor to a ring would be more important than accumulated wins at this stage of his career.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 07 2010 10:23 AM Re: Johan's season...

TransMonk wrote: Edgy DC wrote: Johan, you rock, you roll. Stop looking at your stat line and start looking at your bank account. And don't rape anybody. BOC! Does Johan ever bitch about not getting W's? I think he knows he's on a direct path to "legacy" because of his career resume and doesn't need 300 as a benchmark for anything. I have to think being a major contributor to a ring would be more important than accumulated wins at this stage of his career. I don't think he bitches about it. I'd bet a kidney that he stews about it-- not so much blown leads as having games taken out of his hands. He knows. I just don't know if he thinks some of those that matter-- the BBWAA, e.g.-- know, given a mere 128 pitcher-wins, with career rate stats that don't look absurdly good, and a peak that wasn't quite Baseball-Bugs enough so as to absolutely make up for this win-"deficiency." Losing out on awards takes shine off the legacy AND money out of the wallet (bonuses, endorsement bucks); Lord knows, a lack of pitcherwins seems to have cost him the 2008 NL Cy. A third Cy bumps him from Saberhagen-Perry country to Koufax-Palmer-Seaver territory (to dumb evaluators who look only at voting results rather than career pitching performance... but I digress).

Frayed Knot Jul 07 2010 10:38 AM Re: Johan's season...

I remember Al Leiter saying that an older pitcher worries a lot more about that sort of stuff because he can start to feel how he has less time to make up for it later on, while a younger one is more likely to take the attitude that it'll all even out in the end.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 07 2010 10:44 AM Re: Johan's season...

I thought that Lincecum deserved his 2008 Cy, fair and square, even though Johan was jobbed out of several wins by his bullpen. But Johan was the NL's second best pitcher that year, which was not reflected in the CYA balloting. Here's a question: Johan's been in the majors long enough to be eligible for HOF consideration. If yesterday was his last game ever, does he deserve to get in, or does he need to do more? OE: I'd say that Johan's peak is HOF worthy. CY in 2004 and 2006. Rookd out of the CY in 2005. ERA champ and 2d best NL pitcher in 2008. But the voters might want more accumulation on the counting stats.

TransMonk Jul 07 2010 10:54 AM Re: Johan's season...

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Johan's been in the majors long enough to be eligible for HOF consideration. If yesterday was his last game ever, does he deserve to get in, or does he need to do more? OE: I'd say that Johan's peak is HOF worthy. CY in 2004 and 2006. Rookd out of the CY in 2005. ERA champ and 2d best NL pitcher in 2008. But the voters might want more accumulation on the counting stats. Tough one. Looking at his numbers, I think he might be on the outside looking in. I don't like to think about that though. He should have more than a few years of above average to elite numbers left...at the end of his career, I still think he'll be a no doubter.

Zvon Jul 07 2010 11:10 AM Re: Johan's season...

TransMonk wrote: Does Johan ever bitch about not getting W's? I think he knows he's on a direct path to "legacy" because of his career resume and doesn't need 300 as a benchmark for anything. I have to think being a major contributor to a ring would be more important than accumulated wins at this stage of his career. BadaBingo! Yes, Santana goes in the HOF. Or should. Pitchers of this era should be considered with a different yardstick to measure by. And yea, I think a ring and him being a major contributor on that stage, should that happen, makes him a shoe in.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 07 2010 11:23 AM Re: Johan's season...

I think Johan bitches about wins. Perhaps mostly privately because he's probably smart enough to understand that bitching openly would mar his image ... but then there's the tantrum he threw last year when Muffy muffed a fly to left that probably cost Johan a win. I don't recall Johan whining about any other flagrant Mets errors -- committed on some other pitcher's watch.

G-Fafif Jul 07 2010 11:47 AM Re: Johan's season...

I hear they're gonna do away with wins and other useless pitching metrics.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 07 2010 11:48 AM Re: Johan's season...

I thought that Lincecum deserved his 2008 Cy, fair and square, even though Johan was jobbed out of several wins by his bullpen. But Johan was the NL's second best pitcher that year, which was not reflected in the CYA balloting. I'll go 1-1A, with the order really in the eye of the beholder. Lincecum had the edge in pitcher WAR and many more strikeouts, while Santana allowed a handful fewer baserunners, fewer runs by a small-but-significant margin (earned and unearned), one more CG-shutout, and didn't miss a start. I wasn't saying Lincecum didn't deserve it, though... just that a few more pitcherwins get him the Cy. If he'd gotten 3-4 more wins (and, as per conservative estimates, the 'pen/offense jobbed him out of a likely or definite "win" 10 or 11 times), there's no doubt in my mind the voters choose Captain Tovar. Here's a question: Johan's been in the majors long enough to be eligible for HOF consideration. If yesterday was his last game ever, does he deserve to get in, or does he need to do more? OE: I'd say that Johan's peak is HOF worthy. CY in 2004 and 2006. Rookd out of the CY in 2005. ERA champ and 2d best NL pitcher in 2008. But the voters might want more accumulation on the counting stats. Upon closer look... it's close. ERAs in the mid-2s, sub-1 WHIPs and mid-200s K totals in the mid-00s AL (adding up to ERA+s of 182, 155, and 162) is pretty damn fetching. It's Koufax, with less cartoon-like K numbers. G-Fafif wrote: I hear they're gonna do away with wins and other useless pitching metrics. I'd punch a nun for an "Attaboy."

Zvon Jul 07 2010 11:57 AM Re: Johan's season...

batmagadanleadoff wrote: I think Johan bitches about wins. Perhaps mostly privately because he's probably smart enough to understand that bitching openly would mar his image ... but then there's the tantrum he threw last year when Muffy muffed a fly to left that probably cost Johan a win. I don't recall Johan whining about any other flagrant Mets errors -- committed on some other pitcher's watch. Can you also tell us what David Wright thinks and feels in the deepest darkest recesses of his mind?

batmagadanleadoff Jul 07 2010 12:02 PM Re: Johan's season...

Zvon wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: I think Johan bitches about wins. Perhaps mostly privately because he's probably smart enough to understand that bitching openly would mar his image ... but then there's the tantrum he threw last year when Muffy muffed a fly to left that probably cost Johan a win. I don't recall Johan whining about any other flagrant Mets errors -- committed on some other pitcher's watch. Can you also tell us what David Wright thinks and feels in the deepest darkest recesses of his mind? Of course I can.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 07 2010 12:06 PM Re: Johan's season...

Zvon wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: I think Johan bitches about wins. Perhaps mostly privately because he's probably smart enough to understand that bitching openly would mar his image ... but then there's the tantrum he threw last year when Muffy muffed a fly to left that probably cost Johan a win. I don't recall Johan whining about any other flagrant Mets errors -- committed on some other pitcher's watch. Can you also tell us what David Wright thinks and feels in the deepest darkest recesses of his mind? "Gee, this Vitamin Water's refreshing. But not as refreshing as a good night's sleep! Also, I have deep-seated, strikeout-related insecurities that will eat at me until, at age 45, I end up tattooing Mein Kampf on my forehead and marrying a mule."

Zvon Jul 07 2010 12:16 PM Re: Johan's season...

I think Johan bitches about wins. Perhaps mostly privately because he's probably smart enough to understand that bitching openly would mar his image ... but then there's the tantrum he threw last year when Muffy muffed a fly to left that probably cost Johan a win. I don't recall Johan whining about any other flagrant Mets errors -- committed on some other pitcher's watch. Can you also tell us what David Wright thinks and feels in the deepest darkest recesses of his mind? Of course I can. It's the same as his quotes, isn't it? OOOO, that frightens me more than Johan's secret bitchiness. OE: LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: "Gee, this Vitamin Water's refreshing. But not as refreshing as a good night's sleep! Also, I have deep-seated, strikeout-related insecurities that will eat at me until, at age 45, I end up tattooing Mein Kampf on my forehead and marrying a mule." Classic. *looks for belt buckle.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 07 2010 12:22 PM Re: Johan's season...

A few years ago, David Wright was thinking, "YUCK! This is the last time I accept a chocolate shake from Jaerock Lee!"

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 07 2010 12:33 PM Re: Johan's season...

"I wonder if Molly Beers will let me get to second base. Should I try?"

Zvon Jul 07 2010 02:25 PM Re: Johan's season...

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: "I wonder if Molly Beers will let me get to second base. Should I try?" Of course you should.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 07 2010 03:11 PM Re: Johan's season...

Zvon wrote: John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: "I wonder if Molly Beers will let me get to second base. Should I try?" Of course you should. Just don't get thrown out at third. Big mess all around.