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Second Base

86-Dreamer Jul 08 2010 07:44 AM

Conventional wisdom is that Mets need to add a top flight starting pitcher. And sure, that would be great, especially if they make the post season, but first they need to make the post season. If they are going to pay a high price, I would rather see them upgrade the everyday lineup for this year and next - specifically second base. 2009 Castillo would be nice upgrade to the current production, but I don't like the probability of him returning to that form. Kelly Johnson, Dan Uggla, and Ian Kinsler are all good offensive second basemen on teams that either suck and/or are facing some financial crisis. Each is 28 years old, and I believe controllable beyond this season. If we have the resources to make only one big move, anyone else share my preference to use those resources at 2B instead of Cliff Lee?

TransMonk Jul 08 2010 07:51 AM Re: Second Base

I am of the opinion that Lee would help the club more than any second baseman ever would. It really depends on how Jerry aligns the outfiled when Beltran and Castillo are scheduled to come back. I have no problem with Castillo batting eighth in this lineup. He leaves something to be desired defensively...but that's not whant we're talking about, are we?

Benjamin Grimm Jul 08 2010 07:54 AM Re: Second Base

Not if we're talking about Uggla.

86-Dreamer Jul 08 2010 08:05 AM Re: Second Base

TransMonk wrote: I am of the opinion that Lee would help the club more than any second baseman ever would. It really depends on how Jerry aligns the outfiled when Beltran and Castillo are scheduled to come back. I have no problem with Castillo batting eighth in this lineup. He leaves something to be desired defensively...but that's not whant we're talking about, are we? WAR agrees with you, but these particular second basemen are no slouches: Uggla 2.1 Johnson 1.6 Kinsler 2.1 Lee 3.0 Niese's effort last night and the 5 Santana games where Mets lost despite him pitching 7 innings and allowing 2 runs or less have me thinking about the lineup

Ceetar Jul 08 2010 08:09 AM Re: Second Base

since 2009 was right around his career, 2008 was injury plagued and bad-luck plagued, and he was dealing with the bone bruise for a lot of this year (and still wasn't really that bad until the end) I really have little concerns about Castillo come back to his .360+ OBP self as well as playing the adequate defense he's capable of, and was, playing. Got + defenders on both sides of him anyway. I think his pitch taking adds a lot to this lineup that's a little aggressive, which does work for them a lot, but there are times the opposing pitcher is cruising to low pitch counts that Castillo breaking up a rhythm a bit would help. I don't know where to bat him though. I like Castillo 2nd because it gives more RBIs to Wright and Beltran (and hopefully Bay) but Pagan has played too well to really drop to 6th (and i doubt we put him 5th and Bay 6th). and do we really want to drop Ike to 7th? Even if he's not exactly playing that well right now, I like him a little further up than that. Of all those guys, I do like Castillo 8th the most, but I don't necessarily want him behind Barajas in terms of base clogging, (or trying to drive in the slow Barajas) Maybe Reyes, Castillo, Pagan, Wright, Beltran, Bay, Davis, Barajas, Santana? who knows..i guess it's a good problem to have. I don't think we need to look to significantly upgrade 2B though. Beltran and Castillo are both a + offensively, we can still hope Bay picks it up, and Reyes has been throttled or out for over a week. Pagan missed some time as well. So while the offense has looked a little sour lately, it's also been banged up.

86-Dreamer Jul 08 2010 09:34 AM Re: Second Base

Ceetar wrote: I don't think we need to look to significantly upgrade 2B though. Beltran and Castillo are both a + offensively, we can still hope Bay picks it up, and Reyes has been throttled or out for over a week. Pagan missed some time as well. So while the offense has looked a little sour lately, it's also been banged up. I am with you if Beltran and Castillo are healthy and productive. But I am very suspicious of both given the serious and chronic nature of Beltran's injury, and that for the last two years Castillo has looked like he can barely walk. I am not taking Reyes' injury lightly either.

TransMonk Jul 08 2010 10:28 AM Re: Second Base

I guess I am more confident in Beltran and Castillo complimenting the offense we already have than I am in Niese, Dickey AND Takahashi all continuing their 1st half success. Lee (or another 3+ starter) helps solidify the rotation AND the bullpen.

Edgy DC Jul 08 2010 10:55 AM Re: Second Base

Castillo and Beltran are, or course, already paid for, so it's not really a fair comparison.

86-Dreamer Jul 08 2010 11:05 AM Re: Second Base

TransMonk wrote: I guess I am more confident in Beltran and Castillo complimenting the offense we already have than I am in Niese, Dickey AND Takahashi all continuing their 1st half success. Lee (or another 3+ starter) helps solidify the rotation AND the bullpen. I am willing to take the risk that Niese has arrived and is here to stay as a top three starter along with Santana and Pelfrey. Because I think that could run for a few seasons, I'd rather use my trade assets on someone I know can help this year and next rather than using all my chips on the chance to win it all this year. And maybe I can still get Lee in the offseason.

TransMonk Jul 08 2010 11:21 AM Re: Second Base

I'm worried less about Niese than Dickey and Tak. Also, Niese is OK as a 3rd starter but would be pretty awesome as a 4th starter. Tell me (sell me) again why we need another 2nd baseman and how they would be better than what we already have?

86-Dreamer Jul 08 2010 11:43 AM Re: Second Base

I think the offense needs to improve, and I am not confdent that Beltran and Castillo can overcome their injuries and provide the improvement this year and next. I also think Reyes injury is worse than it appears. Second base is open, and good young offensive players may be available to fill the position for both the short and medium term.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 08 2010 11:51 AM Re: Second Base

Tell me (sell me) again why we need another 2nd baseman and how they would be better than what we already have? Healthy(ish) Castillo may take a lot of pitches (the most in the league, precentage-wise, actually) and walk like Redd Foxx with a charley horse, but he gets on base at at least a .360-.370 clip, and plays passable-- if below average-- defense. Non-healthy Castillo, though still selective at the plate and experienced with the glove, is significantly worse in the field due to decreased range, and tends to perform... a little poorly (see: 2008, early 2010). Castillo, IOW, is a low-ceiling, low-floor guy at this point in his career. Swapping him out, and swapping in a guy who can perform at/above league average... or even close to league average (even if he takes a lopsided route there, like all-bat Uggla or-- optimistically-- mostly-glove Tejada) is an upgrade. I'm not sure it's the most necessary upgrade this team needs right now, but there are options out there. (The ones Dreamer mentioned, in addition to supersub types like Wigginton, or guys you could play there like Miggy Tejada.)

Zvon Jul 08 2010 12:41 PM Re: Second Base

Well, I always love to go get the players I hat, ie. Uggla, but we are fine at second base for now IMO. Tejada just needs a lil more seasoning at 2nd and when Casti returns he will get that, either with Luis's tutelage or down on the farm. I'd like to see Castillo doing something that would make, to me, all the $$ we thru at him worth it, and be a sole mentor to Tejada in every way possible. And he would be an excellent one if he put his mind to it. I don't think there are many better in that grooming for 2nd base duty dept. What I'm reading is gonna happen is Tejada goes down and gets lots more inning in at second base. This is also acceptable. If Casti goes lame-0 we call him right back up. No, I think we really should be all and totally focused on an arm, preferably with a body attached to it, that works from a "mound".

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 08 2010 12:51 PM Re: Second Base

Where I see a 2Bman in the near future would be a guy like Wiggy who could potentially send Tatis to the unemployment line. I think we may have seen the last of him.

soupcan Jul 08 2010 01:12 PM Re: Second Base

86-Dreamer wrote: I am willing to take the risk that Niese has arrived and is here to stay as a top three starter along with Santana and Pelfrey. Because I think that could run for a few seasons, I'd rather use my trade assets on someone I know can help this year and next rather than using all my chips on the chance to win it all this year. And maybe I can still get Lee in the offseason. Being true to your moniker there Dreamer. Wouldn't you have said the same thing about John Maine 2-3 years ago...?

Zvon Jul 08 2010 01:13 PM Re: Second Base

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Where I see a 2Bman in the near future would be a guy like Wiggy who could potentially send Tatis to the unemployment line. I think we may have seen the last of him. Hey, that's also acceptable if its taking Tatis's spot. Very acceptable. Man, I miss Wiggy. I recall a day I thought he was gonna be around forever. And be a very serviceable infielder. Then, well, we all know what happened then. From wiki: He is currently starting games at second base in the place of the injured Brian Roberts, who is on the DL. He has hit very well during the early stages of the 2010 season, batting .272 through his first 60 games, and ranking eighth in the American League with 13 home runs. Wigginton was elected to his 1st All Star Game in 2010 being the lone O's representative. Wigginton had started the season without a starting position in Baltimore.

Ashie62 Jul 08 2010 01:28 PM Re: Second Base

Retool 2B, nyet! Castillo can split time with Tejada for 2009. I sense Thole & Mejia going somewhere for pitching.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 08 2010 02:09 PM Re: Second Base

I think we can safely put 2009 behind us.

seawolf17 Jul 08 2010 02:12 PM Re: Second Base

I know Wiggy's stat line is impressive, BUT... since May 23: 38 games 26 for 135 (.193) OBP .306 SLG .252 1 HR

86-Dreamer Jul 08 2010 03:15 PM Re: Second Base

soupcan wrote: 86-Dreamer wrote: I am willing to take the risk that Niese has arrived and is here to stay as a top three starter along with Santana and Pelfrey. Because I think that could run for a few seasons, I'd rather use my trade assets on someone I know can help this year and next rather than using all my chips on the chance to win it all this year. And maybe I can still get Lee in the offseason. Being true to your moniker there Dreamer. Wouldn't you have said the same thing about John Maine 2-3 years ago...? Busted. I did think exactly that about Maine! But, teams have to take risks, and I am willing to take one on Niese and his league minimish salary over the next season and a half. I am not willing to risk all of my jewels on a half season rental when I have doubts about whether we have enough offense to make the postseason.

Edgy DC Jul 08 2010 07:20 PM Re: Second Base

Division race lust secondbase upgrade lust got us our Castillo, we overdosed on him, and now we lust for another secondbase upgrade. As we crash from one high, we seek to score another. STOP THE VICIOUS CYCLE! Meanwhile we lost Dustin Martin and Drew Butera! And they're.... well, they're middling AAA players at 26 years old, but... I have a point here.

Gwreck Jul 08 2010 09:01 PM Re: Second Base

Edgy DC wrote: Division race lust secondbase upgrade lust got us our Castillo, we overdosed on him, and now we lust for another secondbase upgrade. As we crash from one high, we seek to score another. STOP THE VICIOUS CYCLE! Meanwhile we lost Dustin Martin and Drew Butera! And they're.... well, they're middling AAA players at 26 years old, but... I have a point here. It wasn't division race lust secondbase upgrade that gave him a 4 year contract...

Edgy DC Jul 08 2010 10:03 PM Re: Second Base

Yeah, well, it was the crazy high from the initial hit that led to the overdose, you follow?

The Second Spitter Jul 08 2010 11:45 PM Re: Second Base

Well, to Omar's credit he didn't go ape shit over Orlando Hudson, resisting the pressure in the press to do so. I'd like see how Muffy goes with an extended run at 2b. He didn't set the world on fire there at Binghamton, but who knows.

OlerudOwned Jul 09 2010 12:10 AM Re: Second Base

Edgy DC wrote: Meanwhile we lost Dustin Martin and Drew Butera! And they're.... well, they're middling AAA players at 26 years old, but... I have a point here. They were the only two prospects I've even adopted!

soupcan Jul 09 2010 09:45 AM Re: Second Base

What's up with Reese Havens? Wasn't he lighting the world on fire with his bat and playing 2B at Bingo?

Frayed Knot Jul 09 2010 09:49 AM Re: Second Base

soupcan wrote: What's up with Reese Havens? Wasn't he lighting the world on fire with his bat and playing 2B at Bingo? Yeah, but he's also keeping up his streak of getting injured at least once in every six day period.

Edgy DC Jul 09 2010 09:50 AM Re: Second Base

A heck of a hitter, but he's only played 32 games this year between St. Lucie and Bingo. If he makes the big club, it probably won't be until September. And he'd probably still be behind Tejada on the depth chart.