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Revisiting a walkoff loss from 1974

Benjamin Grimm Jul 08 2010 08:40 AM

Over the past few days, I've been exploring the UMDB data to identify all games, regular season and postseason, that the Mets won or lost on a walkoff. As of now, I've identified 1,022 games, which seems awfully high. (Out of just over 7,800.) Does roughly one in seven games end in a walkoff? I wouldn't think so. I identified walkoffs as games of 9 innings or more in which the home team won the game and scored one or more runs in the bottom of the last inning. I figure I'll eventually put up a page where you can see all the walkoffs, find which ones ended on home runs, walks, errors, etc. and who the pitchers/hitters/fielders were. But first I want to verify that my 1,022 games are correct. Some of them are a little strange. Here's one that popped out. It is a walkoff, but it doesn't really make sense. It's April 24, 1974, and the Mets are playing in San Diego. Going into the bottom of the ninth, the score is tied at 3. Here's how Retrosheet describes what happened: PADRES 9TH: APODACA REPLACED BOSWELL (PITCHING); ALOU BATTED FOR CORKINS; Alou flied to left; Thomas doubled to right; Grubb was walked intentionally; Winfield walked [Thomas to third, Grubb to second]; Colbert grounded out (second to first) [Thomas scored, Grubb to third, Winfield to second]; 1 R, 1 H, 0 E, 2 LOB. Mets 3, Padres 4. Don't be fooled by that first line. Boswell wasn't the previous pitcher; he had pinch-hit for Bob Miller and Apodaca was replacing him in the lineup, not on the mound. Felix Millan was playing second base. When Nate Colbert came to the plate, the bases were loaded and there was one out. Thomas on third, Grubb on second, Winfield on first. Colbert hits a grounder to Millan. Felix either should have thrown to the plate to get Thomas, who represented the winning run, or gone for an inning-ending double play, which would have meant throwing to Harrelson covering second. Throwing to first base to get the second out is pretty much conceding the loss of the game because it eliminates the force play and makes it all the harder to get the second out of the double play. Does this account seem as strange to you as it does to me? Or is there some interpretation that I'm overlooking? Retrosheet box UMDB box

seawolf17 Jul 08 2010 08:48 AM Re: Revisiting a walkoff loss from 1974

From Joseph Durso's story in the Times: For the occasion, the Mets went into an exaggerated shift on defense: all three outfielders shallow, conceding Colbert the long ball, and all four infielders drawn up tight with Garrett and Bud Harrelson stacked near third base. So, on the second pitch, Colbert bounced a hard ball to the right side between MIlner and Felix Millan, who made a tumbling stop on the dirt and who even threw to first base for the out -- the second out. But THomas, meanwhile, was scoring from third with the winning run... Sounds like a brain fart on Millan's part, as the throw to first probably didn't matter, outside of knocking a miniscule percentage point off Apodaca's ERA with the out.

Edgy DC Jul 08 2010 08:51 AM Re: Revisiting a walkoff loss from 1974

A few possibllities occur. One, Millan lost track of the situation. Two, he mishandled the grounder, saw it was too late to get the runner at home or the doubleplay and threw to first to save some dignity, even though all was lost, all was lost. Three, they went for the doubleplay, perhaps on a tag, and then relayed to first, before the ump ruled no tag. NO TAG!

Benjamin Grimm Jul 08 2010 09:01 AM Re: Revisiting a walkoff loss from 1974

Very cool, seawolf, how you were able to pull up that paragraph from 1974. What did we do before the Internet??

Fman99 Jul 08 2010 10:10 AM Re: Revisiting a walkoff loss from 1974

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Very cool, seawolf, how you were able to pull up that paragraph from 1974. What did we do before the Internet?? I used magazines. Oh wait, what?

batmagadanleadoff Jul 08 2010 10:29 AM Re: Revisiting a walkoff loss from 1974

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Very cool, seawolf, how you were able to pull up that paragraph from 1974. What did we do before the Internet?? For about $5.00, you can get that article off of the NYT web site. I'm betting that Seawolf has access to a free for educational purposes only database.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 08 2010 10:32 AM Re: Revisiting a walkoff loss from 1974

If the Times charged $40 per year instead of $5 per article, I bet they'd end up making more money.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 08 2010 10:53 AM Re: Revisiting a walkoff loss from 1974

Benjamin Grimm wrote: If the Times charged $40 per year instead of $5 per article, I bet they'd end up making more money. Not only do I agree with you, but I was thinking the exact same thing earlier this week. Of course, I'd prefer the $40/annual rate for my own selfish interests whether or not it's a more profitable model for the NYT. I'd subscribe for $40/year, unlimited access to their entire database.

seawolf17 Jul 08 2010 10:57 AM Re: Revisiting a walkoff loss from 1974

If you're a member of the Suffolk County Library System, then you can get it for free.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 08 2010 10:57 AM Re: Revisiting a walkoff loss from 1974

I would too. I'd probably pay $60 or $80 too. But right now they're getting $0 from me. $5 per article is too much, and I don't anticipate I'd ever spend it.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 09 2010 07:59 AM Re: Revisiting a walkoff loss from 1974

seawolf17 wrote: If you're a member of the Suffolk County Library System, then you can get it for free. Once you're authorized, do you have to be physically present at the library to access the database, or can you access it from a remote location --- like your home, for example?

seawolf17 Jul 09 2010 08:15 AM Re: Revisiting a walkoff loss from 1974

batmagadanleadoff wrote: seawolf17 wrote: If you're a member of the Suffolk County Library System, then you can get it for free. Once you're authorized, do you have to be physically present at the library to access the database, or can you access it from a remote location --- like your home, for example? Most of the online databases have in-library and at-home options on the Web.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 09 2010 09:09 AM Re: Revisiting a walkoff loss from 1974

I found another case where the Mets lost on a groundout. This is from September 20, 1974. The Mets take the field in Pittsburgh in the bottom of the ninth with a two-run lead. Then: PIRATES 9TH: Howe walked; PARKER BATTED FOR MENDOZA; MCGRAW REPLACED SADECKI (PITCHING); McGraw threw a wild pitch [Howe to second]; Parker struck out; POPOVICH BATTED FOR HERNANDEZ; Popovich singled to left [Howe to third]; Stennett singled to center [Howe scored, Popovich to third]; PARKER REPLACED MCGRAW (PITCHING); Dyer allowed a passed ball [Stennett to second]; Sanguillen reached on a fielder's choice [Popovich scored, Stennett to third]; Oliver was walked intentionally [Sanguillen to second]; Stargell grounded out (first unassisted) [Stennett scored (unearned), Sanguillen to third, Oliver to second]; 3 R (2 ER), 2 H, 0 E, 2 LOB. Mets 3, Pirates 4. The first baseman here is John Milner. When Stargell came to the plate, the game had already been tied, and the bases were loaded with one out. My guess here is that Milner fielded the grounder, got the easy out at first for the second out, and then tried to complete the double play but failed. Notice also how McGraw came in to the game, threw a wild pitch, struck out Dave Parker, then gave up two singles and was removed from the game. Now, of course, that would never happen. As we saw the other day with Frankie Rodriguez, the "closer" can't leave the game while there's still a chance he can get a save. And here's another game that ended on a groundout. September 3, 1992 in Cincinnati. Mets go into the bottom of the ninth with Anthony Young trying to get the save in a 3-2 game. REDS 9TH: YOUNG REPLACED SASSER (PITCHING); GALLAGHER REPLACED BONILLA (PLAYING RF); Sanders walked; O'Neill doubled [Sanders scored]; Oliver out on a sacrifice bunt (first to second) [O'Neill to third]; Doran was walked intentionally; Branson forced Doran (pitcher to shortstop) [O'Neill scored (RBI), Branson to first]; 2 R, 1 H, 0 E, 1 LOB. Mets 3, Reds 4. This looks like a case where they tried to end the inning with a double play, but couldn't complete it. Not as mysterious as the original Felix Millan example. I've also found three games that ended in a walk-off triple! That's got to be rare, because it could only happen if the winning run was on first base, and the batter made it to third before the runner crossed the plate. It's been more than thirty years (6/19/1980) since a Mets game ended on a triple. Were there different rules in effect that would have made a walkoff triple more likely? (The other two were on 6/24/1968 and 9/10/1970.) The 1970 game was the only win for the Mets, and the tripler was Cleon Jones. The 1968 triple was hit by Lee May of the Reds, and the 1980 triple was Jack Clark of the Giants. He was only 25 then, and was perhaps more speedy than we remember him as being.

Edgy DC Jul 09 2010 09:19 AM Re: Revisiting a walkoff loss from 1974

And the rarest of walkoffs happened twice in ten days in 1983, with the winning run scoring from second on a groundout. In both cases George Foster brought home Mookie Wilson. One of these was Foster's 1,000th career RBI.

Edgy DC Jul 09 2010 09:42 AM Re: Revisiting a walkoff loss from 1974

And, of course, I can't find either. I found this baby, however. Steve Bedrosian taking it on the chin.

Frayed Knot Jul 09 2010 09:56 AM Re: Revisiting a walkoff loss from 1974

I've also found three games that ended in a walk-off triple! That's got to be rare, because it could only happen if the winning run was on first base, and the batter made it to third before the runner crossed the plate. It's been more than thirty years (6/19/1980) since a Mets game ended on a triple. Were there different rules in effect that would have made a walkoff triple more likely? (The other two were on 6/24/1968 and 9/10/1970.) The 1970 game was the only win for the Mets, and the tripler was Cleon Jones. The 1968 triple was hit by Lee May of the Reds, and the 1980 triple was Jack Clark of the Giants. He was only 25 then, and was perhaps more speedy than we remember him as being. Probably not a specific rule change but more likely a change in attitude. I suspect that official scorers tended to give batters the benefit of the doubt when their hit scored a runner from 1st base, that as long as the batter was even headed towards 3rd he got the triple. Since then, either the scores' attitude has changed -- figuring he only would have made 3rd as a result of the throw, ergo a double, or the that of the batters has -- as now they just pull up into 2nd and watch the play at the plate with no attempt to move to 3rd

Edgy DC Jul 09 2010 10:24 AM Re: Revisiting a walkoff loss from 1974

It's also possible that Agee held up part way to second thinking the ball would be caught and Jones was right behind him the whole way screaming for the him to run, and had secured third more or less easily by the time Agee scored.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 09 2010 10:42 AM Re: Revisiting a walkoff loss from 1974

Edgy DC wrote: And the rarest of walkoffs happened twice in ten days in 1983, with the winning run scoring from second on a groundout. In both cases George Foster brought home Mookie Wilson. One of these was Foster's 1,000th career RBI. 7/31/83: METS 12TH: SARMIENTO REPLACED TENACE (PITCHING); Wilson singled to left; Brooks out on a sacrifice bunt (first to second) [Wilson to second]; Hernandez was walked intentionally; Foster forced Hernandez (second to shortstop) [Wilson scored]; 1 R, 1 H, 0 E, 1 LOB. Pirates 0, Mets 1. 8/3/83 METS 9TH: Wilson singled to center; Brooks out on a sacrifice bunt (pitcher to second) [Wilson to second]; Hernandez was walked intentionally; Foster forced Hernandez (shortstop to second) [Wilson scored]; 1 R, 1 H, 0 E, 1 LOB. Expos 1, Mets 2.

Edgy DC Jul 09 2010 10:51 AM Re: Revisiting a walkoff loss from 1974

Four days apart. Almost exactly alike. It was the Frank Howard special. In the book, they're almost exactly the same. I thiink on one, the play at second came from deep in the hole at short and just beat the runner. On the other, there was a relay to first and Foster, hustling all the way, just beat the throw for RBI1K. He would come up a little short of 2K.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 09 2010 10:53 AM Re: Revisiting a walkoff loss from 1974

I do remember Mookie pulling that stunt twice in a short span, but I had completely forgotten that either, let alone both of them, were game-winning runs, and I had also forgotten the George Foster connection.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 19 2010 08:58 AM Re: Revisiting a walkoff loss from 1974

Here's a strange ending, from June 21, 1973. Going into the bottom of the ninth at Three Rivers Stadium, the score is tied 1-1. PIRATES 9TH: Clines walked; Capra threw a wild pitch [Clines to second]; Cash singled to center [Clines to third]; Oliver was walked intentionally [Cash to second]; MCGRAW REPLACED CAPRA (PITCHING); Robertson hit into a double play (second to catcher) [Oliver out at second (right to shortstop), Cash scored (no RBI), Clines out at home]; 1 R, 1 H, 0 E, 1 LOB. Mets 1, Pirates 2. So after Al Oliver was walked, the bases were loaded with nobody out, and McGraw entered the game. He gets Robertson to ground to second and Millan, correctly, throws home to retire Clines, who would have been the winning run. The Mets then complete the double play, with Staub (in right field) throwing to Fregosi (the shortstop) to get Oliver at second. Duffy Dyer, the catcher, must have made a bad throw when trying to get the second out at second base, but despite that, Staub was still able to nail Oliver at second. But while that was going on, Cash rounded third and scored the winning run.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 19 2010 09:25 AM Re: Revisiting a walkoff loss from 1974

d'oh. No error charged to Dyer though?

Benjamin Grimm Jul 19 2010 09:28 AM Re: Revisiting a walkoff loss from 1974

I guess not; the out was made and the double play was completed. But something has to account for Cash scoring from third. I think an error would have been warranted.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 19 2010 11:18 AM Re: Revisiting a walkoff loss from 1974

From September 3, 1979: EXPOS 10TH: Dawson popped to first; Staub doubled to left; SCOTT RAN FOR STAUB; Valentine reached on a fielder's choice [Scott scored (error by Flynn; assists by Allen and Hebner) (unearned)]; 1 R (0 ER), 1 H, 1 E, 1 LOB. Mets 5, Expos 6. Is it possible that the grounder deflected off pitcher Neil Allen, then deflected off third baseman Richie Hebner, and was then fielded by second baseman Doug Flynn who made the game-ending error? Or maybe this was a bunt play; Allen fielded the ball, threw to Hebner at third to get the lead runner, but was too late. Hebner then threw to Flynn (who was covering first because of the bunt) who dropped the throw, allowing Scott to score. I find it hard to believe, though, that Ellis Valentine, in 1979, would be bunting with one out and the winning run on second base.

Edgy DC Jul 19 2010 11:36 AM Re: Revisiting a walkoff loss from 1974

I can't wrap my head around Staub and Dawson on the Expos at the same time. Who was wearing number 10?

HahnSolo Jul 19 2010 12:31 PM Re: Revisiting a walkoff loss from 1974

Dawson wore 10, Rusty wore 6 (and Duffy Dyer #5!). Valentine that year had 1 sacrifice hit (Dawson somehow was called on to sacrifice 8 times!). I forgot how good and young the nucleus of that team was: Carter, Cromartie, Valentine, Dawson, and Larry Parrish were all 25 or younger.

Frayed Knot Jul 19 2010 01:13 PM Re: Revisiting a walkoff loss from 1974

Benjamin Grimm wrote: From September 3, 1979: EXPOS 10TH: Dawson popped to first; Staub doubled to left; SCOTT RAN FOR STAUB; Valentine reached on a fielder's choice [Scott scored (error by Flynn; assists by Allen and Hebner) (unearned)]; 1 R (0 ER), 1 H, 1 E, 1 LOB. Mets 5, Expos 6. Is it possible that the grounder deflected off pitcher Neil Allen, then deflected off third baseman Richie Hebner, and was then fielded by second baseman Doug Flynn who made the game-ending error? Or maybe this was a bunt play; Allen fielded the ball, threw to Hebner at third to get the lead runner, but was too late. Hebner then threw to Flynn (who was covering first because of the bunt) who dropped the throw, allowing Scott to score. I find it hard to believe, though, that Ellis Valentine, in 1979, would be bunting with one out and the winning run on second base. Doesn't need to be a bunt. Maybe it's just a come-backer and a muffed run-down play. Allen throws to 3rd because, while Dawson is holding, PR-er Scott tries to advance. Hebner then throws to 2B where Flynn makes the error which allows the run to score.

Zvon Jul 19 2010 01:52 PM Re: Revisiting a walkoff loss from 1974

This is an amazing thread. I looked at that Expos Row and I thought that Parrish was the catcher Parrish and I was wondering who was doing the catching there. But the catcher was Lance Parrish. Found some interesting tid bits about Larry at wiki: >Two-time All-Star (1979 [named the Montreal Expos '79 Player of the Year after batting .307 with 30 homers and 82 RBI] and 1987) >Hit three grand slams in a week (July 4, 7, and 10, 1982), tying the MLB record set by Jim Northrup >Compiled four career three-home run games, including one instance where the home runs came on consecutive bats (July 30, 1978), and is one of only eight players to accomplish the feat in both leagues (Babe Ruth, Johnny Mize, Dave Kingman, Cory Snyder, Darnell Coles, Claudell Washington and Darryl Strawberry are the others)