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One year of Fran-coeuring

Frayed Knot Jul 11 2010 06:42 PM

Dealt to the Mets a year ago yesterday (7/10/09) his hitting line looked at as one full season doesn't look too bad: .285/.324/.450 in 571 ABs That's a good BA, above average slugging (.165 IsoP), and a walk rate that, while not good, isn't nearly as horrible expected (.049 -- .070 about avg) Problem, of course, is that the trend is headed in the wrong direction. The two halves are almost identical in PAs, with the 2nd half of last season (.311/.338/.498) looking a helluva lot better than the 1st half of this year (.259/.310/.401) Walks are actually the only thing that's up this year (19 v 11) but the hits (73 v 90) and especially power (Total Bases = 113 v 144) are taking a beating. The defense has been good (a lot better than last year IMO - something which might be attributable to getting used to RF in CF) and that arm is definitely a weapon - but he's got to be the guy seeing the most bench on account of Beltran's return. Even the bad version of Bay is better plus JB has the better recent track record and the team's got a lot bigger investment in him for a longer time. So grab a seat Jeff. You'll see ABs in games vs LHPs, to give the others the occasional day off, and maybe in some late game double-switches. And, hey, a RH/LH punch off the bench of Francoeur & Carter might actually be able to make the opposing mgr soil his shorts every once in a while late in a game. No more needing three straight hits off the bench in order to score a run.

metirish Jul 11 2010 06:48 PM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

What is his contract status again?

seawolf17 Jul 11 2010 06:54 PM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

My friend, an erstwhile Mets fan, says Francoeur is her favorite Met because (in her words) "he looks like he needs someone to root for him."

Frayed Knot Jul 11 2010 06:56 PM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

What is his contract status again? Signed just for this year. He'll still be short of FA at the end of the season and therefore NYM property if they want him. But the almost automatic raise (currently making $5mil) that comes via increased service time and the arbitration process means they may just let him walk at the end of the year.

Fman99 Jul 11 2010 07:30 PM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

Frayed Knot wrote: ...he's got to be the guy seeing the most bench on account of Beltran's return. The guys in the booth were talking about this -- Pagan is the only OF of the four that has experience playing off the bench and/or part time as a major league player. Frenchy's such a timing guy, you have to wonder if he's going to have a tougher time finding his rhythm if he's sitting out half of all the games.

Frayed Knot Jul 11 2010 07:46 PM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

As opposed to now the raking he's doing now when he supposedly has his timing & rhythm?!?

Gwreck Jul 11 2010 07:51 PM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

Sounds like a total load of crap. He's a professional player, he'll figure out how to platoon, or else he risks not playing at all.

Edgy DC Jul 11 2010 07:56 PM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

Easy. He's just fretting, is all. I'm certain he's not advocating for a plan of over-indulgent playing time. Meanwhile, Churchie's numbers since the trade almost break your heart. G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB 103 311 283 35 62 22 1 5 34 1 0 26 61 .219 .289 .357 .646 73 101 7 2 0 0 2

G-Fafif Jul 11 2010 08:05 PM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

Seems like he's been around forever. Hard to believe he came to the majors after Jose and David.

smg58 Jul 11 2010 08:16 PM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

Pagan has been the second most valuable Met this season. You could justify a platoon given his and Francoeur's splits, but Francoeur simply does not give the Mets enough to warrant more than that.

The Second Spitter Jul 11 2010 08:31 PM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

Frayed Knot wrote: Dealt to the Mets a year ago yesterday (7/10/09) his hitting line looked at as one full season doesn't look too bad: .285/.324/.450 in 571 ABs Ah, I remember that day fondly. Pre-game drinks with JCL at Bobby V's. Posed for a photo at Shea home plate, and Bucket made me say "Francoeur" as he took it. Lunchbucket then made me steal a lunchbox for lil' Lunchpail the Terrible.

Edgy DC Jul 11 2010 09:03 PM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

Manuel said Pagan will start in right field Thursday night, putting Jeff Francoeur on the bench. "The next night I'll probably play Francoeur against the lefty," Manuel said. "I think I'm going to try to split that time up. But if we face a series where we face four right-handers I'm going to still have to find time for Francoeur and find time to give Beltran a day off." Francoeur said after the game that he understands the situation and he's well aware of what a healthy Beltran can do for the team. "You're not going to see me sulking. I'll be ready to play," Francoeur said. Adults with perspective and grasp. I'll take it.

DocTee Jul 11 2010 09:10 PM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 11 2010 09:24 PM

I like Francouer. Compare his demeanor with K-Rod and you'll see where I'm coming from. On a FOX broadcast a few weeks back (The Nats game where Dickey started?), Niese was asked who takes charge in the clubhouse, "getting after people,etc"...without a moment's hesitation, he said Jeff F. I thought for sure he'd go for Wright or Tatis, or maybe a veteran newcomer like Bay or Barajas. At the risk of sounding like Kevin Millar, Frenchy's a gamer.

Zvon Jul 11 2010 09:22 PM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

Frenchy brings the kind of stuff that Knight used to bring to a team. And I value those kinds of intangibles.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 11 2010 09:34 PM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

Zvon wrote: Frenchy brings the kind of stuff that Knight used to bring to a team. And I value those kinds of intangibles. The looming threat of physical assault from a smiling dude? Frenchy's a nice guy, and standup with the media. But, in essence, he's Church with better social skills and a much poorer idea of what he's doing at the plate; he offers less power against lefties-- the stronger half of his platoon split-- than Pagan offers against all pitchers. If the Mets offer him offseason arbitration, given pending pay increases for Wright and Reyes and Bay, and the long shadow of vesting options for guys like Cora and Frankie, it'll be damning in 2 or 3 different ways.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 11 2010 09:41 PM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

N4N, but it's not fair to Frenchy to be compared to Church (167 PA, OPS+ 51) anymore.

Ceetar Jul 11 2010 09:44 PM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

I've got no problem with Frenchy as the righty off the bench (can't really be worse than Tatis) I'm still befuddled by the three catchers thing(and the use of them), the carrying of Carter as a DH/5th OF.. (which is what Evans is too? or is Evans the CI guy?) I've tired of Francoeur a bit. I know he gives a good interview and is polite and all that, but there's just something about him that bugs me. Maybe it's the links to the rumors about him having less than positive things to say about Strawberry or Perez to the public but not to the players themselves. Maybe it's the inability to become a good ballplayer, despite all the opportunities. Yeah, great, he plays the game hard. I like that he's aggressive and will throw behind runners, try to geta the 9-3 put out, always make an aggressive throw, etc..but if you haven't noticed, Pagan does the same thing. And almost as well at least in terms of actual outfield assists. Oh, and Carlos Beltran does too. I think people may be forgetting just how 5-tool Carlos Beltran really is.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 11 2010 09:54 PM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: N4N, but it's not fair to Frenchy to be compared to Church (167 PA, OPS+ 51) anymore. Fair enough. What Church was, then. He also makes a good deal more scratch.

The Second Spitter Jul 11 2010 10:24 PM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

Ceetar wrote: I've got no problem with Frenchy as the righty off the bench (can't really be worse than Tatis) He also has some value as a L-IDR for somebody like.....Jason Bay. My proposal for something radical would be to trade him for Adam Dunn, who'll file at the end the season anyways.

Edgy DC Jul 12 2010 05:04 AM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

That's a bit more than radical when you look at it from the Nationals end of things. I'm not sure what the third catcher has to do with him. And comparing him to Pagan and Beltran, well, he's certainly behind them on the depth chart. This thread is suddenly about all sorts of things.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 12 2010 06:41 AM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

I just, I just... can't take any more of my father! I mean, Francoeur.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 14 2010 07:31 PM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

ESPNNewYork's Mark Meyers makes a pretty compelling case for not just benching, but moving past Frenchy altogether: Not only has he proven himself unworthy of a starting job, but he also profiles poorly as a reserve. He can't play center field, so he has no versatility on defense. And he's not fast, so he has no value as a pinch-runner. You'd like your pinch hitters to either be able to hit one out, or be a tough out. But Francoeur doesn't hit for power, and his OBP is consistently among the lowest in the league. So what does he do well? He's got a great arm, but so do any number of guys in Triple-A who can't hit. Other than that, his most discernible skill is an ability to hit left-handed pitching, which is where the platoon comes in. Yes, it's true that Frenchy is hitting .348 against lefties this year. But let's look a little more closely at that number. We're only talking about 77 plate appearances, a ridiculously small sample. And of his 24 hits against southpaws, just five have gone for extra bases, including only one that went over the wall. So even though he's hitting left-handers pretty well, he's only hitting singles off of them. Additionally, his batting average on balls in play against lefties this season is an absurd .397. For his career, his BABIP against lefties is .328, which suggests he's over his head this year. In fairness, Francoeur owns a .302/.345/.484 line versus lefties for his career, but that's a pretty pedestrian slugging percentage for a corner outfielder who supposedly crushes lefties. He isn't so good when facing southpaws that you absolutely HAVE TO have him in the lineup against them. And he's useless when facing righties, posting a .703 OPS against them for his career, and .646 this year. So even if a lefty starts, Francoeur should be pinch hit for as soon a right-handed reliever is summoned... And once you realize that there's no need to go out of the way to shoehorn Francoeur into a platoon, then why is he on the team? Fernando Tatis is currently on the disabled list, but has no pronounced platoon split (.777 career OPS against righties, .804 against lefties) and can fill in at all four corner positions, plus second base in a pinch, making him a better use of a roster spot. Ditto Nick Evans (.970 career OPS against southpaws in the minors, .855 in the majors), who mashes southpaws at least as well as Francoeur, and can fill in at first base, left and even third if David Wright comes down with food poisoning or some other 24-hour malady. Jesus Feliciano is a not a "proven major leaguer," but he has hit above .300 for four straight years at Triple-A, including .385 this year, can play all three outfield spots, and would probably be the fastest guy on the bench. All of these guys would make better reserves than Francoeur.

Ceetar Jul 14 2010 07:46 PM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

I'd argue against Tatis, but I definitely would take all the other guys over Frenchy at this point. Honestly, factoring in defense, it seems like Jesus Feliciano might be the best choice. Depending on how Manuel would use the guy anyway. If we're expecting Beltran to take a couple of days off, the + plus defense might be more important. If not, might prefer Evans who may possibly have some power.

Edgy DC Jul 14 2010 09:01 PM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

That seems like a pretty agenda-driven case. All his points are only maybe kinda sorta true, if you're of a binary mindset. He can't play center. Of course he can. He's just the fourth best choice. I'm sure he wouldn't trip over himself if he was forced to. He's not fast/no pinch-runner. He's not slow, and his lack of a usefulness as a pinch-runner will cost us approximately zero games. He doesn't hit for power. Of course he does. His 18 homers in 582 at-bats (one every 32.33) is not an eye-popping total. Neither is it nothing, particuarly for a reserve. Hs OBP is consistently among the lowest in the league. He's seventh from the bottom this year and he's heading to the bench because of it. As far getting a spot on the bench goes, his OBP (the best case against him) is still higher than those of Tatis, Cora, Carter, Tejada, Jacobs, Feliciano, and Evans, as well as starting catcher Rod Barajas. He's got a great arm, but so do any number of guys in Triple-A who can't hit. This simply isn't a fair presentation fof his arm. One defensive analyst, rating arms on a scale of -5 to +5, gave his a +8. A violent outlier, and hardly as replaceable as all that. His best performance comes when slotting him agianst lefties, but big whoop. Of course. Pish, posh on what he actually has done. Tatis and Evans can do that. Recent major league and AAA performance says they're having trouble doing it, and one is hurt. Plus, you know, neither of them have demonstrated a centerfield aptitude either, so be fair. He'll play himself off the roster when he plays himself off the roster. For now, it's better to have threee options than two. This guy isn't arguing what's best for the Mets. He's just trying to buy early, before the Dump Francouer! stock goes up.

smg58 Jul 14 2010 09:12 PM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

on edit: I guess Edgy beat me to the punch on a lot of this, but I spent 15 minutes typing it so I'll post it anyway... Not only has he proven himself unworthy of a starting job, but he also profiles poorly as a reserve. He can't play center field, so he has no versatility on defense. Irrelevant, given that the guy playing ahead of him in right can play center very well. And he's not fast, so he has no value as a pinch-runner. And which guy do the Mets carry for his pinch-running? So what does he do well? He's got a great arm, but so do any number of guys in Triple-A who can't hit. Lots of minor leaguers can throw like Francoeur? Really? We're only talking about 77 plate appearances, a ridiculously small sample. And of his 24 hits against southpaws, just five have gone for extra bases, including only one that went over the wall. So even though he's hitting left-handers pretty well, he's only hitting singles off of them. Additionally, his batting average on balls in play against lefties this season is an absurd .397. For his career, his BABIP against lefties is .328, which suggests he's over his head this year. Didn't you just say it was a small sample? In fairness, Francoeur owns a .302/.345/.484 line versus lefties for his career Which suggests that he's not over his head this year at all. But that's a pretty pedestrian slugging percentage for a corner outfielder who supposedly crushes lefties. It would be pedestrian if he was batting cleanup. Coming off the bench or platooning, it's actually quite useful. He isn't so good when facing southpaws that you absolutely HAVE TO have him in the lineup against them. He has the second highest OPS against lefties on the team, behind Wright. We may not HAVE to play him against lefties, but I don't see why we wouldn't WANT to. And once you realize that there's no need to go out of the way to shoehorn Francoeur into a platoon, then why is he on the team? Fernando Tatis is currently on the disabled list, but has no pronounced platoon split (.777 career OPS against righties, .804 against lefties) and can fill in at all four corner positions, plus second base in a pinch, making him a better use of a roster spot. If you ignore the fact that he's been terrible all year. Ditto Nick Evans (.970 career OPS against southpaws in the minors, .855 in the majors), who mashes southpaws at least as well as Francoeur, and can fill in at first base, left and even third if David Wright comes down with food poisoning or some other 24-hour malady. I don't have any problem at all with Evans replacing Tatis, but while I don't feel he's gotten enough of an opportunity to prove himself at this level, he does have to take more advantage of his opportunities than he has to date. Jesus Feliciano is a not a "proven major leaguer," but he has hit above .300 for four straight years at Triple-A, including .385 this year, can play all three outfield spots, and would probably be the fastest guy on the bench. I like Feliciano, but we don't need two lefthanded reserve outfielders and I think Carter will prove to be the better hitter of the two. I'm not saying Francoeur's a superstar, or that I wouldn't consider dealing him if another GM values him more than I do. But Meyers seems to think he can be easily replaced with what the Mets already have, and I'm not sure I buy it.

Zvon Jul 14 2010 09:58 PM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

Nothing wrong with Frenchy coming off the bench as a bat or a late inning D guy after Beltran returns. We all know Pagan HAS to play. Pagan can go from right to center to spell Beltran, and to left to rest Bay. Frenchy will get just enough playing time so we can tell when he's in one of his hot streaks and let events like that dictate if he should play more. I have no idea how he will be on this team as a hitter off the bench. But he's happy and he wants to stay here, and that should motivate and focus him enough to give whatever role he ends up in all he's got. But the big thing, in my mind, is having that arm in when it may be needed most. A real close game, late inning double switch kinda deal. Come on, we have all seen how runners don't even try to test him. (We all saw yesterday in the AS game how a great throw from an outfielder can stomp out a potential rally.) That could end up a huge factor in a close game, and something tells me we will need all the close ones we can get from here on in. And he is good for the clubhouse in that he uses his excess energy to tie up reporters while the team showers and relaxes after a game. He absorbs the attention like a towel absorbs water. He's a go to guy, and that frees up other players, like Wright, to lay back a bit more. He's a good cheerleader kinda type that can also come in quite handy on the field. I say he should stay.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 14 2010 10:03 PM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

That seems like a pretty agenda-driven case. All his points are only maybe kinda sorta true, if you're of a binary mindset. With all due respect... I think his points are truer and less binary-minded than your rebuttals. He can't play center. Of course he can. He's just the fourth best choice. I'm sure he wouldn't trip over himself if he was forced to. You've just made the exact same point that one can make about virtually every professional baseball player, or at least every professional baseball outfielder. And he's only fourth best on a roster that has no Jesus Feliciano on it. He's not fast/no pinch-runner. He's not slow, and his lack of a usefulness as a pinch-runner will cost us approximately zero games. Tough to say. He's not Barajas, but he ain't speedy. His Bill James speed scores (derived from Stolen Base Percentage, Frequency of Stolen Base Attempts, Percentage of Triples, and Runs Scored Percentage) have been below-average for the entirety of his career. But that's immaterial-- point is, his speed is no asset, and his being on the roster instead of someone who can serve usefully as a pinch-runner. Iffy all-around OFs may be of more use in a day-to-day fill-in role, but ideal bench weapons are more "well-lopsided," as college admissions folk might say. (At the two extremes: Endy... and Matt Stairs/Jack Cust.) He doesn't hit for power. Of course he does. His 18 homers in 582 at-bats (one every 32.33) is not an eye-popping total. Neither is it nothing, particuarly for a reserve. He's 53rd out of 69 batting-title-eligible major-league OFs in HR rate. He's hitting fewer HR/FB than Chris Coghlan, Fred Lewis or Brett Gardner. For a corner OF with little else to offer, it's not nothing... but it's close. Hs OBP is consistently among the lowest in the league. He's seventh from the bottom this year and he's heading to the bench because of it. As far getting a spot as the bench goes, his OBP (the best case against him) is still higher than those of Tatis, Cora, Carter, Tejada, Jacobs, Feliciano, and Evans, as well as starting catcher Rod Barajas. Small Sample Size, You Have a Point (though he plays two premium defensive positions), Small Sample Size, Small Sample Size (and he also plays two premium defensive positions), Not on the Team, Small Sample Size, Miniscule Sample Size... and Not Arguing Here (although... HE'S A CATCHER). He's also got a better OBP than Gary Matthews, Ollie Perez and John Maine, in case you're interested. He's got a great arm, but so do any number of guys in Triple-A who can't hit. This simply isn't a fair presentation fof his arm. One defensive analyst, rating arms on a scale of -5 to +5, gave his a +8. A violent outlier, and hardly as replaceable as all that. Keeping in mind the massive SSS room-for-error, even with the arm, he's been a below-average defensive right fielder this year (as per both Total Zone and UZR). His best performance comes when slotting him agianst lefties, but big whoop. Of course. Pish, posh on what he actually has done. He goes on to explain why it isn't such a big whoop, no? What JF's done isn't terribly impressive, compared to most lefty-mashers, and several bench options already on the 40- or 25-man. Tatis and Evans can do that. Recent major league and AAA performance says they're having trouble doing it, and one is hurt. Plus, you know, neither of them have demonstrated a centerfield aptitude either, so be fair. Tatis has all of 72 PA this year, and has played 7 positions in the last two years; his career track record suggests he's a stronger candidate to bounce back if healthy than Francoeur is to suddenly start hitting more selectively and powerfully. Evans had a terrible year in toto last year, but has otherwise mashed lefties in both the minors and in limited major league; he's played three positions in the same time. He'll play himself off the roster when he plays himself off the roster. For now, it's better to have threee options than two. This guy isn't arguing what's best for the Mets. He's just trying to buy early, before the Dump Francouer! stock goes up. I'm not saying I agree with him entirely. But I do agree that his track record-- recent and long-term-- and his roster security don't exactly line up, and that, in a tight division race, there's decreasing room for error, roster-maintenance-wise.

Edgy DC Jul 14 2010 10:55 PM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

That seems like a pretty agenda-driven case. All his points are only maybe kinda sorta true, if you're of a binary mindset. . With all due respect... I think his points are truer and less binary-minded than your rebuttals.. Completely untrue. He says "He's not this, so he ought to go" and I paint with nuance that "maybe he isn't always but sometimes he is" and so benches are filled with such people when they're performing and they disappear when they're not. He can't play center. Of course he can. He's just the fourth best choice. I'm sure he wouldn't trip over himself if he was forced to. You've just made the exact same point that one can make about virtually every professional baseball player, or at least every professional baseball outfielder. Which is why he shouldn't have taken such a binary position. It's easily assaultable and pretty obnoxious. It's also irrelevant. And he's only fourth best on a roster that has no Jesus Feliciano on it. We don't expect to reach even number three on the depth charts any time soon, because numbers one and two are certainly talented performers. He's not fast/no pinch-runner. He's not slow, and his lack of a usefulness as a pinch-runner will cost us approximately zero games. Tough to say. He's not Barajas, but he ain't speedy. His Bill James speed scores (derived from Stolen Base Percentage, Frequency of Stolen Base Attempts, Percentage of Triples, and Runs Scored Percentage) have been below-average for the entirety of his career. "He's not fast" and "He's not speedy" is saying the same thing twice. So what. He's not there for speed and I doubt he's giving anything away to Nick Evans. I certainly don't remember his wheels hurting us recently. But that's immaterial-- point is, his speed is no asset, and his being on the roster instead of someone who can serve usefully as a pinch-runner. Iffy all-around OFs may be of more use in a day-to-day fill-in role, but ideal bench weapons are more "well-lopsided," as college admissions folk might say. (At the two extremes: Endy... and Matt Stairs/Jack Cust.) Except when they're not. He, though --- contrary to your argument --- is demonstrably lopsided. He has a good platoon split, puncher's power, and probably the best outfield arm in organized baseball. He doesn't hit for power. Of course he does. His 18 homers in 582 at-bats (one every 32.33) is not an eye-popping total. Neither is it nothing, particuarly for a reserve. He's 53rd out of 69 batting-title-eligible major-league OFs in HR rate. He's hitting fewer HR/FB than Chris Coghlan, Fred Lewis or Brett Gardner. For a corner OF with little else to offer, it's not nothing... but it's close. Twenty-fourth percentile. And he's not going to be compared to title-eligible outfielders any longer, but bench outfielders, where his ranking would be far higher, and his at-bats can be selected for best advantage. Hs OBP is consistently among the lowest in the league. He's seventh from the bottom this year and he's heading to the bench because of it. As far getting a spot as the bench goes, his OBP (the best case against him) is still higher than those of Tatis, Cora, Carter, Tejada, Jacobs, Feliciano, and Evans, as well as starting catcher Rod Barajas. Small Sample Size, You Have a Point (though he plays two premium defensive positions), Small Sample Size, Small Sample Size (and he also plays two premium defensive positions), Not on the Team, Small Sample Size, Miniscule Sample Size... and Not Arguing Here (although... HE'S A CATCHER). They're all small sample size. Together they're a large enough sample size to make the case for giving him a chance rather than release him outright, while keeping the players with options in reserve. He's also got a better OBP than Gary Matthews, Ollie Perez and John Maine, in case you're interested. Come on. I was fair. He's got a great arm, but so do any number of guys in Triple-A who can't hit. This simply isn't a fair presentation of his arm. One defensive analyst, rating arms on a scale of -5 to +5, gave his a +8. A violent outlier, and hardly as replaceable as all that. Keeping in mind the massive SSS room-for-error, even with the arm, he's been a below-average defensive right fielder this year (as per both Total Zone and UZR). Yeah, and we're talking about the arm. Do you think there's any way a statement insinuating that there's any number of minor league outfielders that give you an arm like his is true? His best performance comes when slotting him agianst lefties, but big whoop. Of course. Pish, posh on what he actually has done. He goes on to explain why it isn't such a big whoop, no? What JF's done isn't terribly impressive, compared to most lefty-mashers, and several bench options already on the 40- or 25-man. And he stretches credulity in doing so. Everything is a small sample size until its not, and then it doesn't matter any way. If Evans can do it, let him do it, but keeping him in reserve until somebody else who has better demonstrated an ability to do it is just sound business. Tatis and Evans can do that. Recent major league and AAA performance says they're having trouble doing it, and one is hurt. Plus, you know, neither of them have demonstrated a centerfield aptitude either, so be fair. Tatis has all of 72 PA this year, and has played 7 positions in the last two years; his career track record suggests he's a stronger candidate to bounce back if healthy than Francoeur is to suddenly start hitting more selectively and powerfully. Evans had a terrible year in toto last year, but has otherwise mashed lefties in both the minors and in limited major league; he's played three positions in the same time. Which makes it fair that he's ahead of (a) the hurt guy in a season long slump, and the guy with options who has failed above AA. Perfectly sound, if conservative choice. Come on. He'll play himself off the roster when he plays himself off the roster. For now, it's better to have threee options than two. This guy isn't arguing what's best for the Mets. He's just trying to buy early, before the Dump Francouer! stock goes up. I'm not saying I agree with him entirely. But I do agree that his track record-- recent and long-term-- and his roster security don't exactly line up, and that, in a tight division race, there's decreasing room for error, roster-maintenance-wise. I'm not saying I disagree with him entirely, but he's arrogant and where the facts don't suit his argument, he's fudging all over the place. And I want that sort of self-serving perspective as far away from my team as possible. Because he's certainly informed, but being selective with the information. Francoeur is prone to failure, and he's a good bet to fail ultimately sooner or later. But it's easy for this guy to bet sooner when he's not playing with real money.

Zvon Jul 14 2010 11:59 PM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

I love when you guys break stuff down

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 15 2010 07:10 AM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

Granted, the tone's a little nettlesome. It seems to be this guy's first piece for ESPN, so he may be trying to make a stronger-sounding case than he's got, or wants to make. I think the idea's something that demands consideration, though. How serious said consideration should be is debatable.

TransMonk Jul 15 2010 07:25 AM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

I have watched a couple of non-Mets games over the past few weeks. Everytime there is a runner on first and the batter gets a base hit to right field, I think, "there's no way that lead runner gets to third." But, they did everytime. Then I think, "there would be runners on first and second rather than first and third if Frenchy were in right." That is his one asset...but it's not enough to give him any total advantage over the three players that should be out there.

TheOldMole Jul 15 2010 07:33 AM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

Given the fact that these days the entire bench is composed of middle relievers, how often is a pinch runner called for? We're not in the age of Herb Washington here.

Edgy DC Jul 15 2010 07:55 AM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

I don't think it's true that runners are going from first to third on him every time. And I don't think there are truly three players who are demonstrably better able to fill his spot right now. Martinez will displace him soon enough, maybe (probably) Evans also, but it's not true that performance has dictated that it be today.

TransMonk Jul 15 2010 07:58 AM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

Edgy DC wrote: I don't think it's true that runners are going from first to third on him every time. I was saying the opposite. I see so many Mets games as opposed to other teams that anytime I see that situation I think the lead runner will only get to second because of Frenchy...even if he's not playing.

86-Dreamer Jul 15 2010 10:07 AM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

I don't understand the angst over using 4 outfielders amongst non-CPFers. All 4 Mets World Series teams have featured 4 outfielders splitting some time. The return to a 4 man rotation is a good omen - especially since Beltran will almost certainly need regular rest.

Centerfield Jul 15 2010 10:32 AM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

We don't have four outfielders for 3 spots, we have three. Well, three good ones anyway. Assuming Beltran comes back anything close to his old self, we will have two good outfielders and one that is in the middle of the pack (Jason Bay is 40th out of 66 outfielders who qualify). Jeff Francoeur is 59th out of 66 with an OPS below .700 (.695). Of the 7 guys behind him, only Carlos Lee is not a CF (or at least capable of playing an adequate CF). When Beltran comes back, we will have three starting quality outfielders, and three only. This should not be mistaken in any way with our situation in 86. We had four outfielders with an OPS at least in the high 700's. Mookie (.775) Heep (.799) Lenny (.822) and Straw (.865). If you want to draw a comparison to Francoeur, I guess you would have to go to George Foster...but even his numbers (.718) beat Frenchy's. It's tough to measure Francoeur's value against the bench players. While Francoeur has a track history, the other guys either have too few at-bats to be meaningful, or have spent most of their time in the minors. I don't think you can say he should be off the team, nor do I think you can conclusively say he's the best option on the bench.

Centerfield Jul 15 2010 10:35 AM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

But to be clear, this is not to say that RF should not be a platoon situation, it absolutely should. But Francoeur doesn't warrant any other playing time other than that.

Edgy DC Jul 15 2010 10:39 AM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

Agreed, nor does he warrant much faith to continue long should he falter.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 15 2010 10:40 AM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

Because of the stadium announcer in San Juan, I now often think of Jeff as Zheff FranoCOO! Sorry for the interruption. Back to the previously scheduled discussion...

batmagadanleadoff Jul 15 2010 11:12 AM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

I'm harboring some anticipatory angst that Francoeur will get more PT than is warranted, at Pagan's expense. I could live with Frenchy as a backup and occasional starter against some lefties.

metsguyinmichigan Jul 15 2010 11:25 AM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

Given Beltran's fragility, and even Pagan's past fragility, I'd say a fourth outfielder on this team is more like a third-outfielder-plus. He's going to get playing time on a regular basis.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 15 2010 12:37 PM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

Yeah, my only worry is interrupting what's been a Grrrrrrrrreat! season from Pagan. I mean, David's been the 1st Half MVP, but Pagan deserves some kind of award. Here, Angel, have this trophy:

Edgy DC Jul 15 2010 12:51 PM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

"Angel Pagan... Most Valuable Batsman on a Skateobard! Get up here and collect your trophy, Angel."

Centerfield Jul 15 2010 12:56 PM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

That's a hoverboard wise guy. Hoverboard.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 15 2010 01:01 PM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

I thought maybe it was this guy:

Vic Sage Jul 15 2010 01:55 PM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

you rang?

Vic Sage Jul 15 2010 01:58 PM Re: One year of Fran-coeuring

my 2 cents... i think that suggesting the roster spot given to Francoeur rather than, say, Jesus Feliciano, will cost us a post-season slot is alot of agenda advancement at the expense of rationality. you may now return to your regularly scheduled deceased equine flagellation