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Demoralization

John Cougar Lunchbucket Aug 03 2010 09:21 AM

There's been a few articles recently suggesting the Mets are "demoralized" given events including the return of Oliver Perez, the Phillies' acquisition of Oswalt, the Cliff Lee trade, etc etc. The team has certainly been more sloppy in the field (Wright, Reyes and Casdtillo have all butchered their way into trouble) and seemingly less able to concentrate (the deluge of 2-out runs against, the first-inning). Do you buy it?

Benjamin Grimm Aug 03 2010 09:24 AM Re: Demoralization

It's certainly possible. I know that at times in the past, I've been demoralized at work, and I don't suppose that if your work is playing baseball and your workplace is a ballpark that you'd be immune to being demoralized. I doubt that it's just July 31 inaction though. It's probably that combined with the poor play leading up to it. If they were surging as the deadline approached, a deal very well might have been made.

Ceetar Aug 03 2010 09:25 AM Re: Demoralization

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: There's been a few articles recently suggesting the Mets are "demoralized" given events including the return of Oliver Perez, the Phillies' acquisition of Oswalt, the Cliff Lee trade, etc etc. The team has certainly been more sloppy in the field (Wright, Reyes and Casdtillo have all butchered their way into trouble) and seemingly less able to concentrate (the deluge of 2-out runs against, the first-inning). Do you buy it? No. (No that it's anything but losing anyway) Wright has always been a guy that presses too hard and struggles (Beltran too, he had a chance to throw a guy out at second last night and overthrew it into the ground) . Castillo was rushed back from the DL, and I think he's just rusty, shows at the plate too. Reyes also, while not DL'd, basically went three weeks without really playing the infield much, even in practice. Davis has been a bit off too. I wonder if that's just the grind of the season and taking his slump into the field with him.

metirish Aug 03 2010 09:33 AM Re: Demoralization

Not sure if i buy it but they certainly look like a beaten team . I thought Gary was quite forceful in that last night when he admonished Pagan for the way he tracked a ball hit at him last night in LF(rather harsh I thought), he intimated that he thought the team looked like a team playing with no sense of urgency. Ron in the post-game was just as strong in his criticism of the sloppy play and so on.

Edgy DC Aug 03 2010 09:35 AM Re: Demoralization

I think the main factor in their demoralizaiton is their own struggles. Failure leads to frustration, frustration to failure. I'm glad Omar has enough perspective to know that the way that the way to re-direct them isn't trying to trying to flip Antman for Green Arrow or something. I wish/hope Jerry or somebody with authority had'has some emotional weapons. (Maybe Marlon Anderson has a plan.) I know good basebally is inside these guys. Heck, we've all seen it.

Ceetar Aug 03 2010 09:40 AM Re: Demoralization

Edgy DC wrote: I know good basebally is inside these guys. Heck, we've all seen it. The thing that hurts the most is that many people are starting to doubt this. And radio hosts perpetuate it. I just hope it doesn't lead to something extreme like trading Reyes, because THAT would demoralize ME.

metirish Aug 03 2010 09:41 AM Re: Demoralization

Ceetar wrote: Edgy DC wrote: I know good basebally is inside these guys. Heck, we've all seen it. The thing that hurts the most is that many people are starting to doubt this. And radio hosts perpetuate it. I just hope it doesn't lead to something extreme like trading Reyes, because THAT would demoralize ME. Dude , you tweets during every game add to this doubt, come on man.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 03 2010 09:41 AM Re: Demoralization

If their August turns out like their June did, we'll be positioned for a September to Remember.

Ceetar Aug 03 2010 09:48 AM Re: Demoralization

metirish wrote: Ceetar wrote: Edgy DC wrote: I know good basebally is inside these guys. Heck, we've all seen it. The thing that hurts the most is that many people are starting to doubt this. And radio hosts perpetuate it. I just hope it doesn't lead to something extreme like trading Reyes, because THAT would demoralize ME. Dude , you tweets during every game add to this doubt, come on man. Do they? I don't mean to be. Maybe i'm already demoralized. I keep feeling like these guys are about to break out and the offense is actually going to work..and then they don't again.

Ceetar Aug 03 2010 09:50 AM Re: Demoralization

Ceetar wrote: Ceetar wrote: Edgy DC wrote: I know good basebally is inside these guys. Heck, we've all seen it. The thing that hurts the most is that many people are starting to doubt this. And radio hosts perpetuate it. I just hope it doesn't lead to something extreme like trading Reyes, because THAT would demoralize ME. Dude , you tweets during every game add to this doubt, come on man. Do they? I don't mean to be. Maybe i'm already demoralized. I keep feeling like these guys are about to break out and the offense is actually going to work..and then they don't again. Looking back, I was pretty rough on Frenchy. But then, he's not one of the guys I expect to suddenly start hitting.

metirish Aug 03 2010 09:50 AM Re: Demoralization

Maybe it's your arguing with Lennon , it's easy to rise him....

Willets Point Aug 03 2010 10:20 AM Re: Demoralization

Benjamin Grimm wrote: If their August turns out like their June did, we'll be positioned for a September to Remember. This is where my Mets dreams lie right now.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Aug 03 2010 10:26 AM Re: Demoralization

Speaking of which... the "demoralization" bid'ness has to be on the beat writers/media hangers-on a bit, doesn't it? I mean, you're in New York's media cauldron, surrounded by competitors with Trumpian ambition, expected to churn out drama on deadline (and more often than that, if you're blogging). Writing about a team in indefinite, undramatic malaise has got to be pretty stultifying for the beat guys... so, in lieu of an actual story, the thinking might go, why not go with demoralization? After all, there has to be a reason for the lack of success, right? It meets the writers' wants/needs, it goes a good way toward stoking customer interest... why not? (And yeah, while mood might help perpetuate a run of poor play, it sure as hell didn't cause said run.)

John Cougar Lunchbucket Aug 03 2010 10:34 AM Re: Demoralization

Yeah, but, I dunno. Rubin was out front with his piece contending that the Mets would be demoralized by the return of Ollie. I mean, the writers are as close as we're likely to get on issues like that.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Aug 03 2010 10:41 AM Re: Demoralization

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Yeah, but, I dunno. Rubin was out front with his piece contending that the Mets would be demoralized by the return of Ollie. I mean, the writers are as close as we're likely to get on issues like that. Yeah, they're probably better equipped; the legally blind guy sees better than Stevie Wonder, but I'm not hiring either guy as a chauffeur. Also, what's "would be"? Did he ask Ike Davis a conditional question? Was he playing word association with Reyes and watching carefully for his reactions to the words "Culiacan," "wildness" and "silly goatee?"

metirish Aug 03 2010 10:42 AM Re: Demoralization

I tell ya, speaking of Rubin , I miss the guy on the Mets beat in the Snooze.

Edgy DC Aug 03 2010 11:10 AM Re: Demoralization

"Jose, I'm going to say a few words and you tell me the first thing that comes to your mind." "OK, si." "Baseball." "Fon." "Puppies." "Fon." "Housework." "Fon!!" "Dentista." "Muy fon!!" "Extra innings" "FON!" "Lefthander." "No fon." "Wild pitch." "They activated that asshole, didn't they?"

Ceetar Aug 03 2010 11:30 AM Re: Demoralization

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Speaking of which... the "demoralization" bid'ness has to be on the beat writers/media hangers-on a bit, doesn't it? I mean, you're in New York's media cauldron, surrounded by competitors with Trumpian ambition, expected to churn out drama on deadline (and more often than that, if you're blogging). Writing about a team in indefinite, undramatic malaise has got to be pretty stultifying for the beat guys... so, in lieu of an actual story, the thinking might go, why not go with demoralization? After all, there has to be a reason for the lack of success, right? It meets the writers' wants/needs, it goes a good way toward stoking customer interest... why not? (And yeah, while mood might help perpetuate a run of poor play, it sure as hell didn't cause said run.) This is the first year i've paid much attention to the beat writers guys, via twitter. For the most part, they're very negative, and many of them are sarcastic. They also seem to go through very many memes, that only they think are funny/worthwhile, or they carry it on way too long. Carter as the Animal/Intense guy, Mejia to make the team, Oliver as the brainless dolt, Maine as a whiny liar. They're the quickest to typecast a guy, and it's almost like once one person criticises a guy, it opens up the floodgates for everyone to. It's like when your boss comes in wearing jeans, it's suddenly okay for everyone to do so.

Edgy DC Aug 03 2010 11:32 AM Re: Demoralization

That I certainly can agree with. The winds of critical consensus blow strong.

Ceetar Aug 03 2010 11:35 AM Re: Demoralization

Edgy DC wrote: That I certainly can agree with. The winds of critical consensus blow strong. There also seems to be a theme of them trying to get ahead of a story. And since it's speculation, they can never actually be wrong. So take a theme that's been mentioned for weeks/months, one that was even mentioned here today and you can expect... Metsblog has a post up from Rubin about Backman being the next manager in waiting.

bmfc1 Aug 03 2010 11:54 AM Re: Demoralization

I said at the deadline that Omar had to do something in order to show the team that that management believed in them (which didn't mean "Kazmir for Zambrano" but something). I didn't make that up, Keith said it in [u:2p2gs4wv]If At First.[/u:2p2gs4wv] Omar didn't improve the team while the Phillies clearly did and the players notice that which hurts the clubhouse. Having said that, I don't believe that Pagan tracks a fly ball slower or Castillo flubs a DP ball, etc., because the team is sad. While they are playing, instinct and ability takes over. When it hurts is when they fall behind and stop thinking that the team can rally and they stop expecting to win.

Edgy DC Aug 03 2010 12:04 PM Re: Demoralization

See, I don't think the Phillies clearly did improve the team. (What's more, I think they hurt themselves by going to Pedro a second time in the World Series instead of giving Happ a go.) And if the Phillies players play with more energy because the trade excites them, good for them, but there's got to be endless other ways to motivate a team.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Aug 03 2010 12:15 PM Re: Demoralization

Edgy DC wrote: See, I don't think the Phillies clearly did improve the team. (What's more, I think they hurt themselves by going to Pedro a second time in the World Series instead of giving Happ a go.) The second point... maybe. I can see it, and I don't need to squint too hard to do so. But as to the first... really? I mean, REALLY really? Happ put up a nice ERA and all last year, but he didn't miss a lot of bats or play Hudson/Webb ball in doing so, which is a pretty big yellow flag-- he put up an FIP of 4.33, and an even higher xFIP. Coupled with the elbow and wrist injuries, and the fact that Oswalt's deal will cost them just over $10 million a year even if they pick up the 2012 option... yeahIdunno.

Edgy DC Aug 03 2010 12:25 PM Re: Demoralization

When healthy, Happ has performed all through the minors. He was excellent as a rookie last year, and his salary allows the team all sorts of leverage Oswalt's doesn't, even if you consider the $10 mills to be a bargain. He's a 6'6" lefty who has the mechanics down enough to have dominated as a rookie. And of course he brings two other prospects with him. Anyhow the Astros are winning so far, getting six innings of two-hit ball from Happ in his first start vs. Oswalt's four earnies in six for the Phils.

smg58 Aug 03 2010 12:29 PM Re: Demoralization

Losing can become demoralizing. Certainly going into July in good position knowing that the team was getting it's full arsenal back for the first time in over a year, and ending July where they are now, hurts psychologically. But there seems to be an implicit blame of Minaya for the team's emotional state, and that's bogus. You have to earn the right to be buyers, and if the team failed to do that they can look in the mirror for blame. (And I'm sure the players understand that.) On the other hand, the manager has to find a way to convince the team that they're still in it if they get their acts together if the players are struggling to convince themselves.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Aug 03 2010 02:14 PM Re: Demoralization

I wonder if the prospect of spoiling, say, the Braves or a disliked Philly team provide any more motivation than, say, pride/winning for the hell of it.

Edgy DC Aug 03 2010 02:18 PM Re: Demoralization

Winning begets winning, losing begets losing, and therefore mental toughness is an excellent quality for an athlete to have. But as mental toughness is an intangible, I'm sure Derek Jeter has the maximum possilbe amount.

Ashie62 Aug 03 2010 02:19 PM Re: Demoralization

Losing is a disease.

metirish Aug 03 2010 02:22 PM Re: Demoralization

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: I wonder if the prospect of spoiling, say, the Braves or a disliked Philly team provide any more motivation than, say, pride/winning for the hell of it. It's the ultimate losers role I think , for me nothing says lost season as much as playing the role of spoiler. These thoughts bring me back to 2002/03/04 and Fran Healy screaming through the telly about the Mets playing spoilers.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 03 2010 02:23 PM Re: Demoralization

Smilers never lose, and frowners never win.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Aug 03 2010 02:31 PM Re: Demoralization

Smilers never lose, and frowners never win. "That maxim sucks so much, I feel like takin' a bat to it... and missin' repeatedly." [Cora: "Make sure you foul it off a little first. Makes you look grittier." Schneid: "What he said." ]

Ashie62 Aug 03 2010 02:54 PM Re: Demoralization

The primary motivation of most Mets may be to stay healthy and secure a 2011 paycheck. Nothing more, nothing less.

Fman99 Aug 03 2010 03:48 PM Re: Demoralization

Smilers never lose, and frowners never win. "That maxim sucks so much, I feel like takin' a bat to it... and missin' repeatedly." [Cora: "Make sure you foul it off a little first. Makes you look grittier." Schneid: "What he said." ] God damn, that made me laugh. BOC to the void!

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Aug 03 2010 08:24 PM Re: Demoralization

Yeah, but yours isn't the last laugh. (CPFers of the future without cross-referencing ability: he hit a home run that night. Also, your generation is lazy and doesn't have enough respect for its forefathers/their lawn care efforts.)

The Second Spitter Aug 04 2010 03:49 AM Re: Demoralization

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: (CPFers of the future without cross-referencing ability: he hit a home run that night. Also, your generation is lazy and doesn't have enough respect for its forefathers/their lawn care efforts.) When YoungerPooper reads this in 8 years time, she's gonna think: "Gee, the old man is a square"