Master Index of Archived Threads


Islamic community center and mosque .

metirish Aug 03 2010 09:10 PM

Today Landmarks Preservation Commission voted 9-0 that the Burlington Coat Factory in lower Manhattan, a couple of blocks from where the World Trade Center stood would be protected under any Landmark preservation. This ruling basically clears the owners to tear it down and build whatever they want on the site, it's private property. They want to build a cultural center and a mosque. The protests against this are predictable but I just don't understand it , in this city of all cities tolerance should prevail. I have listened to both sides and frankly I find it sad to hear from the people that are against it, they sound so bitter. I guess I will be threading on dangerous waters here but I am tired of families of 9/11 victims protesting this , that and everything else it seems. Not surprising that the Tea Party mob and the likes of Palin are against it , what does surprise me is that the Jewish Anti-Defamation League came out last week against it, aren't they a civil rights organization? Bloomberg gave a passionate defense today after the vote of why government should not stop the owners from building what they want, not often I have seen him talk so passionately about anything.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Aug 03 2010 09:19 PM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

The speech text, from here: “We've come here to Governors Island to stand where the earliest settlers first set foot in New Amsterdam, and where the seeds of religious tolerance were first planted. We come here to see the inspiring symbol of liberty that more than 250 years later would greet millions of immigrants in this harbor. And we come here to state as strongly as ever, this is the freest city in the world. That's what makes New York special and different and strong. “Our doors are open to everyone. Everyone with a dream and a willingness to work hard and play by the rules. New York City was built by immigrants, and it's sustained by immigrants -- by people from more than 100 different countries speaking more than 200 different languages and professing every faith. And whether your parents were born here or you came here yesterday, you are a New Yorker. “We may not always agree with every one of our neighbors. That's life. And it's part of living in such a diverse and dense city. But we also recognize that part of being a New Yorker is living with your neighbors in mutual respect and tolerance. It was exactly that spirit of openness and acceptance that was attacked on 9/11, 2001. “On that day, 3,000 people were killed because some murderous fanatics didn't want us to enjoy the freedoms to profess our own faiths, to speak our own minds, to follow our own dreams, and to live our own lives. Of all our precious freedoms, the most important may be the freedom to worship as we wish. And it is a freedom that even here -- in a city that is rooted in Dutch tolerance -- was hard-won over many years. “In the mid-1650s, the small Jewish community living in lower Manhattan petitioned Dutch governor Peter Stuyvesant for the right to build a synagogue, and they were turned down. In 1657, when Stuyvesant also prohibited Quakers from holding meetings, a group of non-Quakers in Queens signed the Flushing Remonstrance, a petition in defense of the right of Quakers and others to freely practice their religion. It was perhaps the first formal political petition for religious freedom in the American colonies, and the organizer was thrown in jail and then banished from New Amsterdam. “In the 1700s, even as religious freedom took hold in America, Catholics in New York were effectively prohibited from practicing their religion, and priests could be arrested. Largely as a result, the first Catholic parish in New York City was not established until the 1780s, St. Peter's on Barclay Street, which still stands just one block north of the World Trade Center site, and one block south of the proposed mosque and community center. “This morning, the city's Landmark Preservation Commission unanimously voted to extend -- not to extend -- landmark status to the building on Park Place where the mosque and community center are planned. The decision was based solely on the fact that there was little architectural significance to the building. But with or without landmark designation, there is nothing in the law that would prevent the owners from opening a mosque within the existing building. “The simple fact is, this building is private property, and the owners have a right to use the building as a house of worship, and the government has no right whatsoever to deny that right. And if it were tried, the courts would almost certainly strike it down as a violation of the U.S. Constitution. “Whatever you may think of the proposed mosque and community center, lost in the heat of the debate has been a basic question: Should government attempt to deny private citizens the right to build a house of worship on private property based on their particular religion? That may happen in other countries, but we should never allow it to happen here. “This nation was founded on the principle that the government must never choose between religions or favor one over another. The World Trade Center site will forever hold a special place in our city, in our hearts. But we would be untrue to the best part of ourselves and who we are as New Yorkers and Americans if we said no to a mosque in lower Manhattan. “Let us not forget that Muslims were among those murdered on 9/11, and that our Muslim neighbors grieved with us as New Yorkers and as Americans. We would betray our values and play into our enemies' hands if we were to treat Muslims differently than anyone else. In fact, to cave to popular sentiment would be to hand a victory to the terrorists, and we should not stand for that. "For that reason, I believe that this is an important test of the separation of church and state as we may see in our lifetimes, as important a test. And it is critically important that we get it right. "On Sept. 11, 2001, thousands of first responders heroically rushed to the scene and saved tens of thousands of lives. More than 400 of those first responders did not make it out alive. In rushing into those burning buildings, not one of them asked, 'What God do you pray to?' (Bloomberg's voice cracks here a little as he gets choked up.) 'What beliefs do you hold?' "The attack was an act of war, and our first responders defended not only our city, but our country and our constitution. We do not honor their lives by denying the very constitutional rights they died protecting. We honor their lives by defending those rights and the freedoms that the terrorists attacked. "Of course, it is fair to ask the organizers of the mosque to show some special sensitivity to the situation, and in fact their plan envisions reaching beyond their walls and building an interfaith community. But doing so, it is my hope that the mosque will help to bring our city even closer together, and help repudiate the false and repugnant idea that the attacks of 9/11 were in any ways consistent with Islam. "Muslims are as much a part of our city and our country as the people of any faith. And they are as welcome to worship in lower Manhattan as any other group. In fact, they have been worshipping at the site for better, the better part of a year, as is their right. The local community board in lower Manhattan voted overwhelmingly to support the proposal. And if it moves forward, I expect the community center and mosque will add to the life and vitality of the neighborhood and the entire city. "Political controversies come and go, but our values and our traditions endure, and there is no neighborhood in this city that is off-limits to God's love and mercy, as the religious leaders here with us can attest."

Gwreck Aug 03 2010 09:43 PM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

metirish wrote: what does surprise me is that the Jewish Anti-Defamation League came out last week against it, aren't they a civil rights organization? They used to be, at least. That was very surprising to me too, that they could be so wrong about that. Hypocrites. The entire brouhaha is just stupid to me and unfortunately fed by morons like Palin who have never lived here.

Edgy DC Aug 03 2010 10:33 PM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

Newt Gingrich was wrong on this one --- and disappointingly so --- a dozen different ways. No matter how you feel about his politics, in a political culture where you build your base through demagoguery, he's a guy who came to power by putting forward a detailed but clear plan for governing that people believed in and backed. But here he was just stoking a petty (and clearly unconstitutional) crusade with terrible logic. That said, and I'm not in New York so I don't know the atmosphere, was it necessary for the mayor to make a ceremony out of this?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Aug 03 2010 10:44 PM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

It's been a bit of a kerfuffle.

Edgy DC Aug 03 2010 10:50 PM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

Yeah, and I'm wondering if such a ceremony ends it or only further politicizes it.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Aug 03 2010 11:00 PM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

Gingrich, Palin, and dozens of others with absolutely nothing at direct stake here have already seized on it for red meat. He's just playing defense. I'm not a fan of the way he's handled education, the MTA, and various housing issues. But I like his defense.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Aug 04 2010 05:18 AM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

Yeah, Bloomy hit the Keyspan sign on that one. He really beat the Wiz. This idea that lower Manhattan ought to be some kind of patriotic graveyard is a popular one among out of towners with no stake in its future. One of those issues that reveals the worst in your facebook friends.

Fman99 Aug 04 2010 05:44 AM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

metirish wrote: Today Landmarks Preservation Commission voted 9-0 that the Burlington Coat Factory in lower Manhattan, a couple of blocks from where the World Trade Center stood would be protected under any Landmark preservation. This ruling basically clears the owners to tear it down and build whatever they want on the site, it's private property. They want to build a cultural center and a mosque. The protests against this are predictable but I just don't understand it , in this city of all cities tolerance should prevail. I have listened to both sides and frankly I find it sad to hear from the people that are against it, they sound so bitter. I guess I will be threading on dangerous waters here but I am tired of families of 9/11 victims protesting this , that and everything else it seems. Not surprising that the Tea Party mob and the likes of Palin are against it , what does surprise me is that the Jewish Anti-Defamation League came out last week against it, aren't they a civil rights organization? Bloomberg gave a passionate defense today after the vote of why government should not stop the owners from building what they want, not often I have seen him talk so passionately about anything. I am 100% in agreement on this. Something else for the red-staters to get all in a huff about that doesn't really pertain to them or affect them in any actual fashion. Stupid two-party system.

Ceetar Aug 04 2010 06:22 AM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Yeah, Bloomy hit the Keyspan sign on that one. He really beat the Wiz. This idea that lower Manhattan ought to be some kind of patriotic graveyard is a popular one among out of towners with no stake in its future. One of those issues that reveals the worst in your facebook friends. I don't think it's just out of towners that want a graveyard. I'm frankly just tired of all the red tape involved with everything. It's been 9 years, build already! Glad this was decided properly though, the last thing NY/US/anyone needs is more racial tension.

Edgy DC Aug 04 2010 07:14 AM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

Well, I understand the impluse to make a statement and agree it was well stated, but sometimes I wonder if making the statement sometimes just lends legitimacy to the other side of a false controversy, inviting people to line up on which side they're on. There aren't two sides. There's the demagouguery and there's the law, and maybe the mayor would do well by being above the fake fray, and if pinned down, say, "Look, the law is clear in this matter, the Constitution is clear, and the law has spoken --- let's move on to real issues." I agree about Facebook friends. The "friends" I have who are upset about this tend to be the ones trying to shove the Consititution up my ass when it comes to healthcare reform. Ironically enough, with the high-tech security Kelly has established downtown, that'll probably be one of the safest mosques in America, and ill-doers wishing to harass the worshipers will likely get picked up if they circle the block twice, as will any ill-intended worshippers at the mosque.

sharpie Aug 04 2010 07:15 AM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

I agree with everyone here. Also, the location of the mosque wouldn't even be in view of the WTC site. It's a couple of uptown blocks away in the middle of a block. They talk about building an equivalent of the 92nd Street Y. That would be great to have downtown. Politicians from outta town should shut the hell up about this.

Centerfield Aug 04 2010 07:28 AM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

It really has seemed to have brought out the worst in people. I was shocked when I heard a radio spot for Carl Paladino the other day: "As governor I will use the power of eminent domain to stop this mosque and make the site a war memorial instead of a monument to those who attacked our country." Seldom do you hear bigotry stated so plainly and boldly.

metirish Aug 04 2010 07:30 AM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

It's become a political football that promises to only get worse I suppose. Rick Lazio the Republican nominee for governor,wrote a letter to Cuomo, the Democratic nominee, looking for him to investigate the money men behind the Cordoba group, that's the group that plane to build the center. “This is an issue of public safety,” Lazio said at a press conference Wednesday morning, claiming that mosques were used as extremist recruitment centers around the world.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 04 2010 07:31 AM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

Centerfield wrote: Seldom do you hear bigotry stated so plainly and boldly. This even tops the anti-gay marriage crusaders.

seawolf17 Aug 04 2010 07:31 AM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

Rick Lazio has never been the brightest light. Loved Bloomberg's speech; yes, he's Mr. Burns, but he's OUR Mr. Burns.

Centerfield Aug 04 2010 07:41 AM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

Agreed on Bloomberg. Sure, sometimes he's a bit wacky, but there have been a number of times when he's made me, a jaded New Yorker, want to stand up and cheer.

Edgy DC Aug 04 2010 08:00 AM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

It really has seemed to have brought out the worst in people. I was shocked when I heard a radio spot for Carl Paladino the other day: "As governor I will use the power of eminent domain to stop this mosque and make the site a war memorial instead of a monument to those who attacked our country." Seldom do you hear bigotry stated so plainly and boldly. Sheesh, talk about an offense to the Constitution. Open contempt for the Fourth Amendment and the First in the same sentence. Yeah, I'm voting for that guy.

metsmarathon Aug 04 2010 08:05 AM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

It really has seemed to have brought out the worst in people. I was shocked when I heard a radio spot for Carl Paladino the other day: "As governor I will use the power of eminent domain to stop this mosque and make the site a war memorial instead of a monument to those who attacked our country." Seldom do you hear bigotry stated so plainly and boldly. that would be fucking great, wouldn't it? i could see an enterprising terrorist cell use this as an opportunity to turn all of the financial district into a war memorial instead of a properly functioning integral piece of our economy by buying up property, applying to turn that property into a mosque, only to see the gub'mint step in, take away the land, and turn it into another war memorial. can't just stop after the first one, afterall. soon, war memorials would take over, thinning out places of actual business to the point where lower manhattan loses the critical mass necessary to be a financial hub. the centers of the financial industry, now more far flung and fragmented, fall into more and more disarray, until finally our economy collapses, and the terrorists win. also, do these goobers not realize that we're actually engaged in a war or two over yonder wherein the a-number-one most important thing we are trying to do is to win over the hearts and minds of those who are not yet fully convinced that our ultimate aim is to destroy them and their way of life, and that in preventing the construction of a house of worship for their religion, which they hold as a much more integral part of their very existence than does the average evolution-denying american, we are severely undermining that aim and providing ideal propoganda materials to allow our enemies to claim, perhaps rightfully, "see, the american crusaders really are at war with islam. all of islam. the infidels will not stop until they have taken our land, our lives, and our livelihoods and offered them up to their false god. and something about israel, too." or were the japanese internment camps suddenly a good idea, in retrospect?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Aug 04 2010 09:02 AM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

Those up in arms about a fucking cultural center don't seem to shiv two gits about the fact that 1 World Trade's biggest tenant will be Conde Nast, and that hordes of Glamour/Vogue editrixes will be vomiting their lunches and/or trying to convince the world's women to hate themselves dozens of times daily on this hallowed ground. Really, I find Anna Wintour's continued extancy much more offensive than the thought of people praying toward Mecca. Sorry. Aunt Flo's visiting me this week.

dgwphotography Aug 14 2010 05:29 AM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

I love how it's so easy to call bigotry on those who are against this (they do make it easy), yet no one calls it on the people who are building this. This is not just a mosque, it's a statement, and anyone who sees otherwise is fooling themselves. http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Misch ... z0w8BTy6WL Oh, and Steve - what you did on the other board was bullshit. Keep the two boards separate - don't quote this board in an attempt to suck up over there. Don't be a coward - if you disagree with something here, say it.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 14 2010 05:44 AM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

dgwphotography wrote: Oh, and Steve - what you did on the other board was bullshit. Keep the two boards separate - don't quote this board in an attempt to suck up over there. Don't be a coward - if you disagree with something here, say it. What did he do now?

dgwphotography Aug 14 2010 05:46 AM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

He quoted LWFS's post on another board that will remain unnamed in an effort to show that we as a country are fucked...

John Cougar Lunchbucket Aug 14 2010 05:47 AM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

Rogers, could you step into my office?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Aug 14 2010 06:54 AM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

I love how it's so easy to call bigotry on those who are against this (they do make it easy), yet no one calls it on the people who are building this. This is not just a mosque, it's a statement, and anyone who sees otherwise is fooling themselves. http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Misch ... z0w8BTy6WL First, DGW: "Bigotry?" If you grant these writers their point, then "insensitivity," or "mischief-making," maybe. But I have no idea how this marks the builders, or those in support of them, as bigots. It's an interesting perspective, and one that I hadn't thought much about. Here's the thing, though... it's extremely problematic. Just a couple of the issues one could take with the article: 1) Given significant editing, the argument might work as a plank for internal debate among Muslims; it's far less compelling as a reason for outside intervention to preclude building. There's a world of difference between "should build there" and "should be allowed to build there." Let respectful discussion between private groups ring-- it's entirely appropriate. The misleading waging of PR war, distracting attempts at injunctions and other legal end-arounds, willful attempted misuse of Landmark Commissions and the like are not, and that's why they've been unsuccessful. 2) The authors-- with no claimed or apparent tie to this nation or the area, or, faith aside, to Rauf or the congregation-- see "fitna." They send a message through an intermediary which goes unanswered. They see this as oblique proof of their point. It's not; it's proof that these authors did not receive a response to an inquiry at a time when Rauf's figurative mailbox is full to bursting, and nothing more. (High school journalists used to get in trouble for this sort of disingenuousness. Debaters used to get laughed out of rooms. In the age of Breitbart and Drudge, it's de rigueur.) 3) The symbolism of a mosque at Ground Zero might be unmistakable to some. The symbolism of a cultural center with a small mosque located approximately five blocks away from the site-- if any exists-- is a little more unclear. (It's at the site of the old Burlington Coat Factory, about this distance away from Ground Zero, and just a hair closer than Wall Street in another direction. If this is hallowed ground, then so is Century 21.) 4) Letting those who might be most offended make or lead this decision makes as much sense as letting murder victims' families sit on their accused killers' juries or sit in on their deliberations. 5) Let's say I grant the author's point. Going further, let's assume I disdain/distrust this group, and think their message is tantamount to hate speech. I'm still not blocking them from building. I'll be damned if I will. Because I'm better than that. We are better than that... it's in our constitution, it's in our constitutions. If it isn't, it should be. And if it isn't-- if we aren't better-- then, well, fuck it. Let's just close down America now. Liberalism isn't weakness. Oh, and Steve - what you did on the other board was bullshit. Keep the two boards separate - don't quote this board in an attempt to suck up over there. Don't be a coward - if you disagree with something here, say it. SUNDAY! THE GARDEN! LUMBERJACK MATCH! LIKE YOUR DAD FINALLY ADMITTING HE'S A GAY LADY, RAWJAHS... I WILL ROCK YOUR WORLD!

dgwphotography Aug 14 2010 07:06 AM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

I'm not saying that it shouldn't be built for all of the reasons you noted, but no one is calling it what it is, either. The fact that the groundbreaking for the mosque was originally scheduled for the 10th anniversary of 9/11 just makes it even more transparent.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Aug 14 2010 07:12 AM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

What is it?

dgwphotography Aug 14 2010 07:22 AM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

At best, it's a provocation.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Aug 14 2010 07:31 AM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

Funny. I could have sworn it was a community center that'll be open to the general public. Maybe I need a new prescription or something.

Edgy DC Aug 14 2010 07:33 AM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

Yeah, I really wish we could get past the phrase "at Ground Zero." What does that mean? The whole island, in a sense, is at Ground Zero, and so describing the location seems to be deliberately living in ambiguity. Charles Krauthammer putlished a near-phillippic against the project yesterday in the Washington Post. Usually a skilled logician, he built his argument on nebulous planks like this. I really wish Bloomberg had chosen to protect thier rights without a press conference. Whether the builders' symbolic intent is good or ill, isn't it best to come down for or against their rights without allowing yourself to be tricked into coming down for or against them? The president is being drawn into this now. He's clearly shown himself unafraid of walking into a local controversy that doesn't need federal involvement. I guess that makes him brave, but this will seemeingly only inflame the overwrought rhetoric about this. It seems the best thing you can do here is keep the public spotlight away from these folks (while keeping the eye of the law fixed). That way you don't end up a pawn in somebody's PR game, be they left or right, Christian or Muslim, American or foreign.

dgwphotography Aug 14 2010 07:46 AM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Funny. I could have sworn it was a community center that'll be open to the general public. Maybe I need a new prescription or something. How about doing some research on the guy who's building this...

MFS62 Aug 14 2010 08:31 AM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

Charles Krauthammer putlished a near-phillippic against the project yesterday in the Washington Post. Usually a skilled logician, he built his argument on nebulous planks like this. I really wish Bloomberg had chosen to protect thier rights without a press conference. Whether the buliders' symbolic intent is good or ill, isn't it best to come down for or against their rights without allowing yourself to be tricked into coming down for or against them? The president is being drawn into this now. He's clearly shown himself unafraid of walking into a local controversy that doesn't need federal involvement. I guess that makes him brave, but this will seemeingly only inflame the overwrought rhetoric about this. It seems the best thing you can do here is keep the public spotlight away from these folks (while keeping the eye of the law fixed). That way you don't end up a pawn in somebody's PR game, be they left or right, Christian or Muslim, American or foreign. Here's the entire article, as published in yesterday's NY Daily News: http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/col ... index.html Later

seawolf17 Aug 14 2010 06:13 PM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

dgwphotography wrote: The fact that the groundbreaking for the mosque was originally scheduled for the 10th anniversary of 9/11 just makes it even more transparent. I keep seeing people quote this "fact," which I'd almost guarantee is fabricated racist hatemonger crap. This whole issue is infuriating to me; it's insulting to everything America is and has always been that anyone would try to stonewall the building of this center, and more insulting that it's become a political football.

SteveJRogers Aug 14 2010 06:41 PM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

seawolf17 wrote: dgwphotography wrote: The fact that the groundbreaking for the mosque was originally scheduled for the 10th anniversary of 9/11 just makes it even more transparent. I keep seeing people quote this "fact," which I'd almost guarantee is fabricated racist hatemonger crap. This whole issue is infuriating to me; it's insulting to everything America is and has always been that anyone would try to stonewall the building of this center, and more insulting that it's become a political football. I agree about the political football aspect, but I strongly believe that this is something that is being done in an insensitive manner and is being done for provocative reasons more than any other reason. And I hope anyone blasting the Palins, Gingriches, Tea Partyers, and other non-NY Staters did not vote for Hillary Clinton for NY Senator back in 2000.

Edgy DC Aug 14 2010 06:51 PM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

Gingrich is wrong because he's wrong. If it's provocative, we'd do well to be very careful about being provoked. For Pete's sake, can't we all see that he's speaking out because he's running for president and not because he gives a crap about the sacredness of downtown New York?

SteveJRogers Aug 14 2010 06:56 PM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

Edgy DC wrote: Gingrich is wrong because he's wrong. If it's provocative, we'd do well to be very careful about being provoked. I didn't say he was wrong or right, just doing the same thing I do to you guys over steroid users in baseball that either didn't play for the Mets or played for the Mets =;)

Number 6 Aug 14 2010 08:23 PM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

SteveJRogers wrote: I didn't say he was wrong or right, just doing the same thing I do to you guys over steroid users in baseball Being deliberately obtuse?

Edgy DC Aug 14 2010 08:31 PM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

Which is what, Mr. Smileyface? Discrediting my argument without discussing the substance of it?

Ashie62 Aug 14 2010 08:46 PM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Gingrich, Palin, and dozens of others with absolutely nothing at direct stake here have already seized on it for red meat. He's just playing defense. I'm not a fan of the way he's handled education, the MTA, and various housing issues. But I like his defense. I'm not a fan of how term limits disappeared.

Ashie62 Aug 14 2010 08:48 PM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

SteveJRogers wrote: Edgy DC wrote: Gingrich is wrong because he's wrong. If it's provocative, we'd do well to be very careful about being provoked. I didn't say he was wrong or right, just doing the same thing I do to you guys over steroid users in baseball that either didn't play for the Mets or played for the Mets =;) What in God's name do steroids have to do with religious freedom??

Nymr83 Aug 14 2010 08:49 PM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

Nate Silver chimes in (with analysis of Obama's statement, he did post his own personal opinion earlier in the week I think), he also gives credit to Fox News for being the only poll to (in his view) properly/clearly seperate the questions of whether you think the mosque is appropriate and whether you think it should be allowed [url]http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2010/08/obama-defense-of-ground-zero-mosque.html

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Aug 15 2010 12:43 AM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

Ashie62 wrote: LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Gingrich, Palin, and dozens of others with absolutely nothing at direct stake here have already seized on it for red meat. He's just playing defense. I'm not a fan of the way he's handled education, the MTA, and various housing issues. But I like his defense. I'm not a fan of how term limits disappeared. I'm not a fan of McDonald's shamrock shakes, or ham hocks, or field hockey. Each of those has about as much to do with the matter at hand as term limits.

metsmarathon Aug 15 2010 07:14 AM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

how could you not like shamrock shakes? they taste like green

Ashie62 Aug 15 2010 08:52 AM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Gingrich, Palin, and dozens of others with absolutely nothing at direct stake here have already seized on it for red meat. He's just playing defense. I'm not a fan of the way he's handled education, the MTA, and various housing issues. But I like his defense. I'm not a fan of how term limits disappeared. I'm not a fan of McDonald's shamrock shakes, or ham hocks, or field hockey. Each of those has about as much to do with the matter at hand as term limits. Just as in NY might have a different mayor right now. My number 1 played field hockey so I have to draw the line there.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Aug 16 2010 10:50 PM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

Photos of stuff that's the same distance from GZ as the proposed cultural center site.

Willets Point Aug 17 2010 07:23 AM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

I'm starting to feel that the more that intelligent people respond to the absurdity of this non-scandal, the more we're playing into the hands of the rightwing scandal mongers. They're just using this non-issue as a distraction from real problems of the day.

Edgy DC Aug 17 2010 07:36 AM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

Sort of what I'm trying to get at.

metirish Aug 17 2010 07:45 AM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

I agree with a lot of what Richard Cohen had to say on this in the Snooze today Proposed downtown mosque has made fools out of some pretty smart people Last Friday, at the start of Ramadan, President Obama presided over the White House's annual iftar dinner and made some rather bland remarks about religious freedom. The context, of course, was the controversy over the proposed mosque in Lower Manhattan, which is not, as Obama insisted, about freedom of religion but about religious tolerance instead. And then having once again gotten high praise for so very little, he went to bed a panicked man and reached, trembling, some hours later, for a political morning-after pill to take back some of what he had said. Whew, for a moment there he was pregnant with principle. No more. "I was not commenting, and I will not comment, on the wisdom of making the decision to put a mosque there," Obama said in revising and extending and eviscerating his remarks of the previous night. He had merely been commenting on freedom of religion. Turns out he's for it. The president muddled his message. Does he not grasp that questioning the "wisdom" of the mosque's placement is predicated on thinking that 9/11 was a Muslim crime? Does he not understand that the issue here is religious prejudice, not zoning? The answer, of course, is that he does. But unlike Henry Clay, he would rather be president than right. The very ugly controversy over the planned Islamic center -- not at Ground Zero, mind you, and not even within eyeshot -- has managed to make fools or knaves out of some pretty smart people. Some of them have embarked on a fruitless hunt for the perfect analogy. The winner, as you might have imagined, goes to that evil cherub Newt Gingrich, formerly of Georgia but now of any meeting hall with a spotlight. He said approving the mosque "would be like putting a Nazi sign next to the Holocaust museum." Gingrich keeps trying. Earlier he had argued that since there are no churches or synagogues in Saudi Arabia, "there should be no mosque near Ground Zero." But the mosque is not Saudi Arabian, it is Islamic, a distinction not all that hard to keep in mind. The comparison to a Nazi sign at the Holocaust museum is equally specious. Every Nazi was dedicated to the persecution and/or murder of all Jews. This is not the case with Islam and the World Trade Center. That attack was conducted by a handful of fanatics, not an entire religion. Others have joined in the false analogy contests. The most surprising is Charles Krauthammer, my longtime colleague on The Washington Post's op-ed page. In a belabored analogy, he said that while "no one objects to Japanese cultural centers, the idea of putting one up at Pearl Harbor would be offensive." Yes, indeed. But all of Japan attacked Pearl Harbor and declared war on the United States. It was not a rogue act, committed by 20 or so crazed samurai, but an attack by an entire nation. You can look that up. Krauthammer, though, could not be stopped. He likened the mosque to a "commercial tower over Gettysburg," then to the attempt to establish a convent outside of Auschwitz and, inevitably, to "a German cultural center at, say, Treblinka." Enough said. We all have bad days. If it is not false analogies that pollute this debate, it is false populism. The people are opposed. John Boehner, the House minority leader, says so, and so does Rep. Peter King, the Long Island Loud Mouth who is clearly running for something. They are right -- but so what? Would they have liked Lincoln to have deferred to popular sentiment in the South regarding slavery? Would they have liked Truman to have polled the Army about desegregation? Minority rights are embedded in our Constitution. It was the perceived lack of them that caused the states to seek some immediate amendments, what we now call the Bill of Rights. King, Boehner and the rest of the GOP mob are showing a fearless willingness to pander to majority prejudice. Newt has mounted a crusade against radical Islam. No Saracen will be safe. The inclination to go from the particular to the general -- to blame a people for the acts of a few -- is what has always fueled pogroms and race riots. History shows that it is a natural tendency and it will literally run riot if it is not controlled. It is the solemn obligation of elected leaders to restrain such an urge -- to be moral as well as political leaders. Obama almost pulled that off, but he flinched. Yes, he couldn't. Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/col ... z0ws2vSGQP

Willets Point Aug 17 2010 08:00 AM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

Edgy DC wrote: Sort of what I'm trying to get at. Oh yeah, so you did. Well said Edgy.

MFS62 Aug 17 2010 10:37 AM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

dgwphotography wrote: The fact that the groundbreaking for the mosque was originally scheduled for the 10th anniversary of 9/11 just makes it even more transparent. Actually, no. 9/11 happens to be the end of the month-long holiday of Ramadan. No work could have been done before that. Later

dgwphotography Aug 17 2010 11:04 AM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

MFS62 wrote: dgwphotography wrote: The fact that the groundbreaking for the mosque was originally scheduled for the 10th anniversary of 9/11 just makes it even more transparent. Actually, no. 9/11 happens to be the end of the month-long holiday of Ramadan. No work could have been done before that. Later Actually, no. Ramadan ends on August 30th in 2011

seawolf17 Aug 17 2010 12:03 PM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

The fact that the groundbreaking for the mosque was originally scheduled for the 10th anniversary of 9/11 just makes it even more transparent. Actually, no. 9/11 happens to be the end of the month-long holiday of Ramadan. No work could have been done before that. Later Actually, no. Ramadan ends on August 30th in 2011 This "tenth anniversary" thing is a Fox News creation, not a "fact." http://mediamatters.org/research/201007200004

dgwphotography Aug 17 2010 01:21 PM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

Mediamatters.org? really? LOL While Fox surely has their agenda, a look through media matters clearly shows theirs...

seawolf17 Aug 17 2010 01:24 PM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

Bias or not, my specific point is that nowhere in the land of facts does this "tenth anniversary of 9/11" opening exist. It's made-up rhetoric that sounds plausible, so people believe it.

dgwphotography Aug 17 2010 01:32 PM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

seawolf17 wrote: Bias or not, my specific point is that nowhere in the land of facts does this "tenth anniversary of 9/11" opening exist. It's made-up rhetoric that sounds plausible, so people believe it. That is certainly possible, and I'm not denying that may be the case. My latest post was only intended to correct 62 on when Ramadan was ending next year. Here's all I want - I want to hear Republicans say they have every right to build it there, and I want to hear Democrats say that yes, it's in poor taste and can be construed as a provocative action. Just once, can both sides bend?

themetfairy Aug 17 2010 01:37 PM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

I don't think anyone is denying that it's in poor taste and it's provocative. The issue becomes looking beyond that and tolerating that which is abhorrent.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Aug 17 2010 01:41 PM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

I don't believe it's in poor taste or provocative. Why should I admit so?

metirish Aug 17 2010 01:42 PM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

themetfairy wrote: I don't think anyone is denying that it's in poor taste and it's provocative. The issue becomes looking beyond that and tolerating that which is abhorrent. I think plenty of people me included don't think it's in bad taste or provocative.

themetfairy Aug 17 2010 01:44 PM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

OK - I stand corrected. Not everyone dislikes the idea. But from my perspective, that which makes us a truly great nation is to tolerate all people, even those with whom we disagree. If we start suppressing opposing points of view, we will become everything that the terrorists (quite wrongly, at least for now) accuse us of being.

Gwreck Aug 17 2010 02:00 PM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

dgwphotography wrote: Mediamatters.org? really? Do you have a good faith basis to suggest that the quote they obtained is fabricated or false?

Edgy DC Aug 17 2010 02:01 PM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

I'm agnostic on whether it's in good taste or in poor taste or no taste. I suppose I could do more dilligence and dig into the people behind the building and analyze whether they are sufficiently loyal to the United States, but people who wouldn't meet my standard are living and breathing and building places of worship under the Constitution all the time. I try not to get upset about that. If, as Charles Krauthammer writes, a place it made sacred "by the blood of martyrs and the indescribable suffering of the innocent," then it actually seems appropriate that there is a Mosque nearby. Many Muslims died on September 11. A few had their widows visited by the authorities investigating whether they were insiders in the attack. Others had their families put on no-fly lists and unable to attend the memorial services. Muslim hearts were broken, just as Christian and Jewish and agnostic hearts were. Muslim faith was shaken and challenged, just as the faith of others was. And to many of all creeds, their faith was their only comfort in a time of outrageous fear and suffering. I'm certain if hateful rhetoric comes from the mosque, we'll all hear about it. And I'll be no more offended than I would be by hateful rhetoric spewing from a mosque in Milwaukee (or a church in Missouri for that matter). If building the building is provocative, then our leaders' responses certainly are. While fighting two wars in countries where we are desperately trying to prove we are on the side of Muslims and not at war with their faith, our leaders would do well to cool it.

metsmarathon Aug 17 2010 02:29 PM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

our leaders would do well to remember that they are, or at least are should be, leaders. sadly, our leaders tend to be politicians, which tends to be the exact opposite thing.

Centerfield Aug 17 2010 02:39 PM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

I also don't know enough about it to know whether it's in poor taste or provocative. If the opponents want to shift their argument to this, I'm happy to find out more about it. As of now, their main agenda isn't about poor taste. It's that they shouldn't be allowed to be there. And in my opinion, that position is in poor taste and provocative.

metsmarathon Aug 17 2010 03:00 PM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

one could argue that that position provides aid and comfort to our enemy. oe, for clarity. it does far more damage to our cause in afghanistan, iraq, and the rest of the islamic world for our populace and our leadership to scream to the heavens that the mosque should not be allowed to be built there - indeed that it should be prevented from being built there. our leaders and populace are subverting the message our troops are risking their lives to bring to the people of the middle east - that we wish to bring them the same peace and freedoms that we enjoy, and that their radicalizing, bastardizing leadership is the greatest obstacle in the way to that aim. worse, our own radicalizing, bastardizing leadership is subverting the foundation of this country in seeking to bar a religious group from constructing a building where they are legally permitted, and where any building respective of any other religion would surely be permitted. those who would seek to have their local, state, or federal government step in and prevent the construction of the mosque are allowing our enemies to flaunt the fact that, given teh opportunity, we will trample our constitution if it means we can tamp down on the rights of muslims. that our land of religious tolerance is a sham, at least so long as you're not christian or jewish in the right ways, they will surely say. that is a greater aid and comfort to our enemy than any propogandistic victory they could gain by the construction of the mosque. "nya, nya, we're within walking distance of ground zero!" doesn't carry as much weight as "the americans and their troops are liars, and would like nothing more than for islam to be destroyed and replaced by their own god - not even their own mighty constitution can stand in their way"

seawolf17 Aug 17 2010 07:02 PM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

Other things within two blocks of the "hallowed ground": http://daryllang.com/blog/4421

Nymr83 Aug 17 2010 07:19 PM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

Here's all I want - I want to hear Republicans say they have every right to build it there, and I want to hear Democrats say that yes, it's in poor taste and can be construed as a provocative action. Just once, can both sides bend? Peter King and Harry Reid basically said just that

MFS62 Aug 17 2010 09:32 PM Re: Islamic community center and mosque . Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Aug 18 2010 07:38 AM

I was thinking 2010. And I was sorta' correct: http://www.when-is.com/ramadan-2010.asp Ramadan ends on the 9th. The next day is the Moslem sabbath, when no work would be done. So 9/11/2010 would be the next available day for work (groundbreaking) to begin. Later

Valadius Aug 17 2010 09:58 PM Re: Islamic community center and mosque .

You know, I'm surprised by the Republicans. You'd think they'd stick to the economy like glue, but here's the thing - Republicans just can't help themselves, they always play the fear card. Always. This whole thing is fucking stupid, the media are clearly being tugged along in the dead of summer by Fox News on a non-story and it's just total bullshit. Do I see any outrage over the mosque on Warren? Why does the media gloss over the Bush administration's extensive trumpeting of this Rauf guy, even so far as to send him overseas representing American Islam via the State Department? You know, it's pissing me off that we're not in session right now, because all I have to watch on TV right now at work, instead of floor speeches and hearings, is cable news, and at a time when we could be focusing on really important stuff, producers are chasing those juicy mid-day ratings.