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California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Gwreck Aug 04 2010 02:50 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Aug 04 2010 02:52 PM

By the US District Court, Northern District of California. This was the same sex marriage case (Perry v. Schwarzenegger) with the long trial. Actual enforcement of the decision (ie. removing the law from the books) is likely to be stayed pending the next appeal. Next step is an appeal to the US Court of Appeals, 9th Circuit, and then the Supreme Court. http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2010/08/ju ... _vict.html

Benjamin Grimm Aug 04 2010 02:52 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Activist judge!

Willets Point Aug 04 2010 03:11 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Activist judge! Where "activist judge" means "understand that the Constitution protects the freedom and equality of all."

A Boy Named Seo Aug 04 2010 03:24 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Yay.

G-Fafif Aug 04 2010 05:23 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Gwreck wrote: (Perry v. Schwarzenegger) All politics aside, and even after seven years, do you Californians in the 'Pool ever get past the idea that Arnold Schwarzenegger is your governor? Is it ever not, on some very basic level, totally bizarre?

Nymr83 Aug 04 2010 07:20 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

i'm not a californian, but i'm at the point where i think of him as a politician first and actor/bodybuilder second.

metirish Aug 04 2010 07:30 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Nymr83 wrote: i'm not a californian, but i'm at the point where i think of him as a politician first and actor/bodybuilder second. Damn bad at both though no?

The Second Spitter Aug 04 2010 07:53 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Well, he certainly parlayed his limited acting abilities, regardless of what his technical deficiencies were. Oh, and he won Mr Olympia 7 times straight.

Nymr83 Aug 04 2010 08:18 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

metirish wrote: Nymr83 wrote: i'm not a californian, but i'm at the point where i think of him as a politician first and actor/bodybuilder second. Damn bad at both though no? he was really up and down as an actor... but the bad probably outweighed the good... Mr. Freeze was absolutely horrible in the wirst batman movie, as was "last action hero"

DocTee Aug 04 2010 08:22 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Used to Ahnold in the Executive Mansion by now. Twas surreal, but this is a state that had--and probably will have again--Moonbeam Brown running the show.

The Second Spitter Aug 04 2010 08:34 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Nymr83 wrote: Nymr83 wrote: i'm not a californian, but i'm at the point where i think of him as a politician first and actor/bodybuilder second. Damn bad at both though no? he was really up and down as an actor... but the bad probably outweighed the good... Mr. Freeze was absolutely horrible in the wirst batman movie, as was "last action hero" If you narrow the appraisal of his acting prowess to his genre, he was one of the best all-time -- you can't just pick any roided-freak off the street and tell him to act, as evidenced by all those pro-wrestlers who try to make the transition to the silver screen and fail miserably (Dwayne Johnson being the main exception).

MFS62 Aug 05 2010 08:29 AM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

(Filling in for Fman on this one) I'm not sure about marriage per se, but it seems like that for years the Mets have taken it up the butt when they played the California teams. Later

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Aug 05 2010 08:32 AM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

A travesty overturned. Anyone with more of a legal-ly background than most of us... how likely is this to stand? What sort of challenges seem likely on appeal? (Oh, and for my money, Jesse Ventura getting elected governor of Minnesota was almost as weird. Bill Duke's being voted into the statehouse in New Mexico just seemed mildly odd, and Carl Weathers' appointment as Ambassador to Pretend Russia was less weird than inevitable, really.)

Gwreck Aug 05 2010 11:51 AM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

The next step is a motion to stay the enforcement of the judgment pending appeal. This will certainly happen (ie. they're not removing the law from the books just yet). After that is the appeal to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals (which also sits in San Francisco). It is unlikely that the 9th Circuit will overturn, particularly given that the plaintiffs (seeking that the law be struck down) were successful. An appeal to the Supreme Court is the obvious resolution here. Assuming no changes in the composition of the court* and that Kagen is confirmed, the decision will predictably come down to Justice Kennedy. (Scalia, Thomas and Alito will unquestionably side with the defendants and that the law is constitutional; Breyer, Ginsburg, Sotoyamor that is unconstitutional. Roberts and Kagan are slightly more wildcards on the issue...but probably not going to vote any way other than what you'd expect). While Kennedy probably sides more with the so-called "conservative wing" of the court, he's been the justice writing the majority opinions on several key cases as they relate to gay rights: -Romer v. Evans (1996), in which the court struck down a Colorado law that sought to prohibit homosexuals from bringing anti-discrimination lawsuits; -Lawrence v. Texas (2003), in which the court struck down criminal sodomy laws These two cases, combined with Loving v. Virginia (1967) - the case which overruled laws prohibiting interracial marriage - are a pretty solid bedrock of precedent for the Court to invalidate the California proposition. -- *It's unlikely, but if the Court should change in composition then things could be very different. It seems likely that the case will reach the Supreme Court as currently constituted (+ Kagan) though.

metsmarathon Aug 05 2010 01:33 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

i thought the last action hero was a terrific movie, in that it was exactly what it tried to be. granted, hudson hawk is also one of my favorite movies. so...

seawolf17 Aug 05 2010 07:44 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

metsmarathon wrote: i thought the last action hero was a terrific movie, in that it was exactly what it tried to be. I loved the soundtrack. Tesla's title track, nice ballads from Def Leppard and Queensryche, two Alice in Chains tunes, AC/DC, the Aerosmith live orchestral version of "Dream On"... good stuff.

Fman99 Aug 05 2010 07:58 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

MFS62 wrote: (Filling in for Fman on this one) I'm not sure about marriage per se, but it seems like that for years the Mets have taken it up the butt when they played the California teams. Later When someone's stealing your lines like this, it's a real pain in the ass. Speaking of which...

Nymr83 Aug 05 2010 09:00 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Its time for the government to get out of the marriage business. Offer the contractual benefits of civil unions to whatever sane and of-age people want them and leave marriage to each person's respective religion, which can decide for itself upon whom to grant its sacraments.

The Second Spitter Aug 06 2010 01:48 AM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Gwreck wrote: The next step is a motion to stay the enforcement of the judgment pending appeal. This will certainly happen (ie. they're not removing the law from the books just yet). After that is the appeal to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals (which also sits in San Francisco). It is unlikely that the 9th Circuit will overturn, particularly given that the plaintiffs (seeking that the law be struck down) were successful. An appeal to the Supreme Court is the obvious resolution here. Assuming no changes in the composition of the court* and that Kagen is confirmed, the decision will predictably come down to Justice Kennedy. (Scalia, Thomas and Alito will unquestionably side with the defendants and that the law is constitutional; Breyer, Ginsburg, Sotoyamor that is unconstitutional. Roberts and Kagan are slightly more wildcards on the issue...but probably not going to vote any way other than what you'd expect). While Kennedy probably sides more with the so-called "conservative wing" of the court, he's been the justice writing the majority opinions on several key cases as they relate to gay rights: -Romer v. Evans (1996), in which the court struck down a Colorado law that sought to prohibit homosexuals from bringing anti-discrimination lawsuits; -Lawrence v. Texas (2003), in which the court struck down criminal sodomy laws These two cases, combined with Loving v. Virginia (1967) - the case which overruled laws prohibiting interracial marriage - are a pretty solid bedrock of precedent for the Court to invalidate the California proposition. -- *It's unlikely, but if the Court should change in composition then things could be very different. It seems likely that the case will reach the Supreme Court as currently constituted (+ Kagan) though. Jesus H. Christ - dude, don't you see enough of this shit at work?

Nymr83 Aug 06 2010 12:28 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

The stuff thats in the news is infinitely more interesting than the stuff 99.9% of lawyers see at work.

Edgy DC Aug 06 2010 12:37 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Nymr83 wrote: Its time for the government to get out of the marriage business. Offer the contractual benefits of civil unions to whatever sane and of-age people want them and leave marriage to each person's respective religion, which can decide for itself upon whom to grant its sacraments. I've long felt this way, and it's a rare subject you and Vic Sage agree on. Is there any movement to bring this into being? If ever there was a non-starter, it was the anti-gay-marriage amendment. The anti-flag-burning amendment may have had a better chance, and that's not saying much.

Nymr83 Aug 06 2010 01:18 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

the way government is today I don't see the constitution getting amended for awhile. Is there anyone who actually likes flag burning? But even with that there just isn't the necessary momentum to get ANYTHING through the 2/3 of both houses and the 3/4 of state legislatures. We haven't had an amendment even get through Congress in the past 40 years.

Edgy DC Aug 06 2010 01:24 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Yeah, but the question on the table: is there any movement out there to get the govenrment out of the marriage business?

Gwreck Aug 06 2010 01:26 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Nymr83 wrote: We haven't had an amendment even get through Congress in the past 40 years. Not that this really changes your point, but there were two in the seventies that made it through Congress but weren't ratified by enough states: the "Equal Rights" Amendment, and a DC congressional representation amendment (and repeal of the 23rd amendment).

Benjamin Grimm Aug 06 2010 01:33 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Wouldn't it be discriminatory to say that only religious people can get "married"? I think the anti-gay-marriage people need to understand that nothing is forcing churches to sanctify gay marriages. I don't see why anyone has religious objections to what happens in civil weddings.

Edgy DC Aug 06 2010 01:44 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Wouldn't it be discriminatory to say that only religious people can get "married"? What's the sarcasm content on this? At any rate, if you're ir-religious, I'm sure you'd have no objection to getting your union "sanctified" by the organization of your choice. Their authority and validity would be no more or less than any you've granted them.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 06 2010 01:56 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Edgy DC wrote: What's the sarcasm content on this? Zero. Edgy DC wrote: At any rate, if you're ir-religious, I'm sure you'd have no objection to getting your union "sanctified" by the organization of your choice. Their authority and validity would be no more or less than any you've granted them. True. But if you're not calling it "marriage" then people who care about the term (and clearly a lot of people do, although I don't really see myself as one of them) are being discriminated against in this scenario. I was married in a civil ceremony. If my marriage had to be called a "civil union" instead, then I'd be right where the gay people are now. And clearly they're not satisfied with that. I don't think marriage should be only religious or only civil. I don't see any problem with the way it is now, so I see no need to change it. On the other hand, perhaps you're saying that instead of getting married by the city or the state, I could, in theory, get married by the AAA or Wal-Mart. If that is what you're saying, then I'd have no problem with it.

Edgy DC Aug 06 2010 02:04 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Edgy DC wrote: What's the sarcasm content on this? Zero. Edgy DC wrote: At any rate, if you're ir-religious, I'm sure you'd have no objection to getting your union "sanctified" by the organization of your choice. Their authority and validity would be no more or less than any you've granted them. True. But if you're not calling it "marriage" then people who care about the term (and clearly a lot of people do, although I don't really see myself as one of them) are being discriminated against in this scenario. So call it marriage. I don't get it.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 06 2010 02:12 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

If it's called marriage, it's okay. If it's not, which is what Namor seemed to be suggesting, then it's not okay.

Edgy DC Aug 06 2010 02:16 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

If marriage is only something conferred by private organizations, then those organizations can call it whatever they want, and I'm sure they would. OE: I'm sure they do.

Ashie62 Aug 06 2010 02:46 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: A travesty overturned. Anyone with more of a legal-ly background than most of us... how likely is this to stand? What sort of challenges seem likely on appeal? (Oh, and for my money, Jesse Ventura getting elected governor of Minnesota was almost as weird. Bill Duke's being voted into the statehouse in New Mexico just seemed mildly odd, and Carl Weathers' appointment as Ambassador to Pretend Russia was less weird than inevitable, really.) Should not have been overturned. Voted for by the people. Hopefully the won't hit the supreme court before Obama can further stack the court for this horrid agenda.

Edgy DC Aug 06 2010 02:53 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

If what the people voted for was to, by definition, become the law of the land, we'd have no need for a constitution. But we do, because the tyranny of the majority was --- and should remain --- as real a fear as the tyranny of kings.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Aug 06 2010 03:46 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Our entire political system is designed to express the "will of the people" while checking their direct influence over the actual lawmaking process. Hordes of people tend to make somewhat inelegant lawmaking bodies. (I'd ask more about the "hidden agenda," but I'd rather not rock the commode.)

metsguyinmichigan Aug 06 2010 03:46 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

I support gay marriage. But I sure wish it could happen without a judge overturning a statewide referendum. That makes me kinda queasy. It's difficult to force enlightenment (at least my view of enlightenment) upon the masses. I was on a church council a while ago, and the pastor wanted us to support a group that was making a vocal opposition to gay marriage. I mounted a vigorous defense, and suggested that it was, perhaps, wrong for a church group that sings "They'll know we are Christians by our love" to team up with groups that were, at best, intolerant. We go to another church now. My wife says I'm not allowed to be on council again.

Nymr83 Aug 06 2010 04:04 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

If marriage is only something conferred by private organizations, then those organizations can call it whatever they want, and I'm sure they would. OE: I'm sure they do. conferred by private organizations, or self-proclaimed by two individuals. we just wouldn't care. the state would establish and recognize Civil Unions with specific contractual rights and obligations, and the rest would be left for the people, absent government, to deal with as they would.

Ashie62 Aug 06 2010 04:37 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Edgy DC wrote: If what the people voted for was to, by definition, become the law of the land, we'd have no need for a constitution. But we do, because the tyranny of the majority was --- and should remain --- as real a fear as the tyranny of kings. Sorry, but that is BS.

Ashie62 Aug 06 2010 04:39 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Ashie62 wrote: LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: A travesty overturned. Anyone with more of a legal-ly background than most of us... how likely is this to stand? What sort of challenges seem likely on appeal? (Oh, and for my money, Jesse Ventura getting elected governor of Minnesota was almost as weird. Bill Duke's being voted into the statehouse in New Mexico just seemed mildly odd, and Carl Weathers' appointment as Ambassador to Pretend Russia was less weird than inevitable, really.) Should not have been overturned. Voted for by the people. Hopefully this won't hit the supreme court before Obama can further stack the court for this horrid agenda.

Frayed Knot Aug 06 2010 04:53 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Ashie62 wrote: Edgy DC wrote: If what the people voted for was to, by definition, become the law of the land, we'd have no need for a constitution. But we do, because the tyrrany of the majority was --- and should remain --- as real a fear as the tyrrany of kings. Sorry, but that is BS. So if the people vote slavery back into existence ... ?

Edgy DC Aug 06 2010 05:59 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Ashie62 wrote: Edgy DC wrote: If what the people voted for was to, by definition, become the law of the land, we'd have no need for a constitution. But we do, because the tyrrany of the majority was --- and should remain --- as real a fear as the tyrrany of kings. Sorry, but that is BS. Really? Please tell me how.

seawolf17 Aug 06 2010 06:09 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

/grabs a bucket of popcorn /puts feet on table

Ashie62 Aug 06 2010 06:26 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Frayed Knot wrote: Ashie62 wrote: Edgy DC wrote: If what the people voted for was to, by definition, become the law of the land, we'd have no need for a constitution. But we do, because the tyrrany of the majority was --- and should remain --- as real a fear as the tyrrany of kings. Sorry, but that is BS. So if the people vote slavery back into existence ... ? That is a bit of a stretch, no?

Frayed Knot Aug 06 2010 07:55 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Not in the slightest. Your view is that the will of the people should prevail and that the Constitutional guarantees should have nothing to do with it and mocked the idea where a voting majority can act as a tyrant.

Edgy DC Aug 06 2010 07:58 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

How can it be a strech? He asked a question.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Aug 06 2010 08:50 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Again... you do understand how the judicial system is supposed to function, and why it was designed that way? I'm not asking rhetorically. Your "arguments" imply you don't.

Ashie62 Aug 06 2010 10:56 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Frayed Knot wrote: Not in the slightest. Your view is that the will of the people should prevail and that the Constitutional guarantees should have nothing to do with it and mocked the idea where a voting majority can act as a tyrant. I don't see any constitutional guarantee. However the courts will decide. I am simply opposed to gay marraige as is the majority of the country.

Gwreck Aug 06 2010 11:00 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

*

The Second Spitter Aug 06 2010 11:46 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Nymr83 wrote: The stuff thats in the news is infinitely more interesting than the stuff 99.9% of lawyers see at work. Discourse on Kennedy's stance on gay civil rights is not an exposition of law, mon petit Padawan -- it's politics.

The Second Spitter Aug 06 2010 11:53 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Again... you do understand how the judicial system is supposed to function, and why it was designed that way? I'm not asking rhetorically. Your "arguments" imply you don't. My personal view is that this thread sucks.

Frayed Knot Aug 07 2010 05:17 AM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Ashie62 wrote: I don't see any constitutional guarantee. To what ... Slavery? Gay marriage? Anything? Or just to issues you don't like? However the courts will decide. Well one court already did - but that hardly matters if you're going to hang with the claim that the majority should always get what it wants. I am simply opposed to gay marraige as is the majority of the country. Then argue that it's a bad idea, not that the role of the judicial branch should be tossed aside as if it has no role whenever it clashes with what you want.

Willets Point Aug 11 2010 02:12 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Benjamin Grimm Aug 11 2010 02:16 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

The problem is that the heads of guys like the one in the cartoon don't pop when they're presented with real evidence. They just go on to find some other distortion to be angry about. I wish their heads would pop!

Number 6 Aug 11 2010 02:24 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

My aunt just got married to her partner of 17 years this weekend in Massachusetts. My aunt has MS, which just recently progressed from Relapsing/Remitting into Progressive. She's walking with a walker at the age of 50, and is likely to be in a wheelchair in a few years, at best. The marriage was just as much about my aunt's partner declaring her commitment (she proposed) to sticking with her through all the inevitable complications and backing it up with the law as it was about declaring her love. Forgive me, Ashie, if I don't give a damn what you and other people think about the "horrid agenda." Look forward a few years, and at the progressively widening gap between the elderly and the young in regard to tolerance toward homosexuals, and I'm comforted with the knowledge that it won't be long before you've lost this battle.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 11 2010 02:31 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Well said!

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Aug 11 2010 02:39 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Not to mention being able to spend overnight visits or say goodbye to her in a hospital or hospice with some modicum of dignity. Here's to your aunt and aunt-in-law, 6er.

Number 6 Aug 11 2010 03:17 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Thanks, gents.

themetfairy Aug 11 2010 09:11 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

k Ashie62 wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: Not in the slightest. Your view is that the will of the people should prevail and that the Constitutional guarantees should have nothing to do with it and mocked the idea where a voting majority can act as a tyrant. I don't see any constitutional guarantee. However the courts will decide. I am simply opposed to gay marraige as is the majority of the country. I have to disagree. I think the trend is for tolerance of homosexual marriages.

Nymr83 Aug 12 2010 03:32 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

themetfairy wrote: k Ashie62 wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: Not in the slightest. Your view is that the will of the people should prevail and that the Constitutional guarantees should have nothing to do with it and mocked the idea where a voting majority can act as a tyrant. I don't see any constitutional guarantee. However the courts will decide. I am simply opposed to gay marraige as is the majority of the country. I have to disagree. I think the trend is for tolerance of homosexual marriages. what are you disagreeing about? because i think you are both right. a majority still opposes gay marriage but the trend is in the other direction. (kinda like the mets are still above .500 but the trend is going down)

themetfairy Aug 12 2010 04:00 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

I don't know the actual percentages, but I know that tolerance for gay marriage is sharply on the rise. Whether it's actually a majority yet or not, it will be shortly.

Kong76 Aug 12 2010 07:24 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Willets Point wrote: Oh that's just too funny and needs to be printed and left anonymously on a few desks at work tomorrow.

Gwreck Aug 13 2010 09:30 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

themetfairy wrote: I don't know the actual percentages, but I know that tolerance for gay marriage is sharply on the rise. Whether it's actually a majority yet or not, it will be shortly. It may already be. CNN Poll just released showed a 49% yes/51% no (margin of error 4.5%) when asked the question "Do you believe gays and lesbians have a constitutional right to get married and have their marriage recognized by law as valid?" (Same question last year had a 45 yes/54 no).

Kong76 Aug 14 2010 05:25 AM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

I think anyone who really sat down and discarded all of their whatevers from whatever's past could possibly argue that tolerance for all things gay is sharply on the rise. Heck, just about every family I know has a gay relative that is now openly talked about and shows up at functions with partners. That just wasn't the case (where I live) twenty years ago. I hope that doesn't sound offensive to anyone as that is not my intent at all. I don't follow this stuff and I'm too lazy to research it ... anyone know how it is in other countries? Do gays marry in Japan? Poland? India?

dgwphotography Aug 14 2010 05:44 AM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I wish their heads would pop! Ah yes. Those who preach tolerance are usually the least tolerant of opposing views...

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Aug 14 2010 07:11 AM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Kong76 wrote: I think anyone who really sat down and discarded all of their whatevers from whatever's past could possibly argue that tolerance for all things gay is sharply on the rise. Heck, just about every family I know has a gay relative that is now openly talked about and shows up at functions with partners. That just wasn't the case (where I live) twenty years ago. I hope that doesn't sound offensive to anyone as that is not my intent at all. I don't follow this stuff and I'm too lazy to research it ... anyone know how it is in other countries? Do gays marry in Japan? Poland? India? Canada, Sweden, Spain, Holland, South Africa, Belgium, Norway, Argentina. A bunch of others-- the UK, Portugal, Germany, France, Finland and New Zealand among them-- have liberal civil-partnerships rules that grant virtually all of the rights of marriage to gay couples.

Kong76 Aug 14 2010 07:30 AM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Kong76 wrote: I think anyone who really sat down and discarded all of their whatevers from whatever's past could possibly argue that tolerance for all things gay is sharply on the rise. I completely botched this sentence ...

Benjamin Grimm Aug 14 2010 09:24 AM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

dgwphotography wrote: Benjamin Grimm wrote: I wish their heads would pop! Ah yes. Those who preach tolerance are usually the least tolerant of opposing views... It's bigotry that I'm intolerant of.

dgwphotography Aug 14 2010 09:29 AM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Benjamin Grimm wrote: I wish their heads would pop! Ah yes. Those who preach tolerance are usually the least tolerant of opposing views... It's bigotry that I'm intolerant of. As am I, but bigotry and racism are words that are thrown around far too easily these days.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 14 2010 09:31 AM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Perhaps. But I don't see any reason other than bigotry to oppose gay marriage. Religious arguments don't fly, because we're only talking about civil marriages. I'd understand it if anyone was trying to compel churches to recognize gay marriages, but nobody is.

seawolf17 Aug 14 2010 06:14 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

And I just, for the life of me, do NOT understand how this impacts heterosexual marriage at all, religious or not.

metsmarathon Aug 14 2010 06:27 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

shows like the bachelor are far more damaging to heterosexual marriage than legalized homosexual marriage ever could be.

Number 6 Aug 14 2010 08:33 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

dgwphotography wrote: As am I, but bigotry and racism are words that are thrown around far too easily these days. This issue is one of very few we've struggled with as a society that, in my view, is utterly uncomplicated. There have been no rational arguments for opposition to gay marriage that are in harmony with a culture of tolerance, as far as I can tell. When I hear one, maybe then I'll consider that opposition isn't rooted in either bigotry or ignorance.

Ashie62 Aug 14 2010 08:52 PM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Number 6 wrote: My aunt just got married to her partner of 17 years this weekend in Massachusetts. My aunt has MS, which just recently progressed from Relapsing/Remitting into Progressive. She's walking with a walker at the age of 50, and is likely to be in a wheelchair in a few years, at best. The marriage was just as much about my aunt's partner declaring her commitment (she proposed) to sticking with her through all the inevitable complications and backing it up with the law as it was about declaring her love. Forgive me, Ashie, if I don't give a damn what you and other people think about the "horrid agenda." Look forward a few years, and at the progressively widening gap between the elderly and the young in regard to tolerance toward homosexuals, and I'm comforted with the knowledge that it won't be long before you've lost this battle. It is certainly possible.

dgwphotography Aug 15 2010 06:19 AM Re: California Proposition 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Number 6 wrote: This issue is one of very few we've struggled with as a society that, in my view, is utterly uncomplicated. There have been no rational arguments for opposition to gay marriage that are in harmony with a culture of tolerance, as far as I can tell. On this we agree. Number 6 wrote: When I hear one, maybe then I'll consider that opposition isn't rooted in either bigotry or ignorance. Ah - there we go. More people need to have their eyes opened - I believe ignorance is the larger player here.