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New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Sep 13 2010 09:07 AM
Edited 5 time(s), most recently on Sep 14 2010 02:04 PM

In which I practice making a chart and assess the mentioned candidates for next Met manager by attributes likely to come into play.


CandidateML ExperienceMet HeritageWill work for Peanuts?Media CharmStrategic Rep'Leader of Men' RepFan AppealGood with 'Kids'?JuiceBox-Office Power
Bobby ValentineLotsExcellentNo wayGood, but some detractorsExcellentKnown to feud with someDynamiteSomehat?GallonsFearsome
Ken OberkfellNoneNoneYesUnknownTBDOK, presumablyMaybe among prospect geeksYesLittleNone
Lee MazzilliYes (Orioles)PlentyPresumablySome (Madden likes him)OK?Had some issuesSomePresumablysomePoster Day!
Bob Melvin7 yrsNoneProbablyGoodNot greatGood?LittleMaybe?SomeNope
Wally Backman a Few daysGoodYesThey love himTBD, but looks pretty frighteningGoodStrongShould beSomeYup
Joe TorreTonsPlayer, manager and player/managerNopeGood if somewhat damagedehVery goodSomeDoubtful at this stageYesGood
Bob BrenlyLotsNoneUnknownPopular broadcasterUsed Johnson in reliefOK?LittleUnknownMaybe someLittle
Tony PenaSome (KC)Son is high-profile prospectProbablyWon a MOY awardDon't know?OK?LittleProbablySomeSome

Edgy DC
Sep 13 2010 09:17 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Any thought that Hale comes into play? He has but one life to give to the Mets.

There will also, most certainly, be a minority to be named later in the mix. Julio Franco?

Ceetar
Sep 13 2010 09:19 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

How about Don Mattingly?

Edgy DC
Sep 13 2010 09:24 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Maybe to replace HoJo.

metirish
Sep 13 2010 09:28 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Ceetar wrote:
How about Don Mattingly?



No freaking way....the manager in waiting out in LA got embarrassed by Boche when he made the two mound visit in that game a while back, no experience and for fecks sake you should know the rule book. Bobby V could recite that thing back to front.

How's about Ron Gardenhire?

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Sep 13 2010 09:29 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

I wasn't speculating on candidates myself but rather going with those mentioned as possibilities. That said, the only way Mattingly gets here is as Torre's butt-boy and I think Torre's a long shot due to the fact that the team doesn't look ready for immediate contention and the salary thing.

Who else has been mentioned?

Benjamin Grimm
Sep 13 2010 09:34 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

LaRussa, but he's every bit as unlikely as Torre.

Maybe Tim Teufel will be a candidate? Maybe he and Wally can platoon as Mets managers, depending on whether the opposing manager is left-handed or right-handed.

HahnSolo
Sep 13 2010 09:49 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

If I'm Teufel, and with the years I've put into the organization, I'd be a little irked that Oberkfell, Backman, Mazzilli, and Melvin were getting consideration while I'm not.

And I don't know how you define juice, but at this point I'd say Wally has more juice than Mazzilli or Melvin.

MFS62
Sep 13 2010 10:02 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Although he has never managed, I think that somewhere in the deep recesses of his mind, Tim McCarver would like the chance to manage a major league club. Based on some of the things he has said, from positioning players on defense (e.g. - the third baseman should play in to cut down the angles rather than guarding the line in late innings) to moves on offense (e.g.- the hit and run vs the bunt), he certainaly would be different.
I'm not sure if different = better, but it would be interesting to find out.

Later

Benjamin Grimm
Sep 13 2010 10:08 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Isn't McCarver almost 70? I doubt he'd have any interest in becoming a rookie manager at this stage of his life.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Sep 13 2010 10:12 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

"Juice" -- A measure of personal magnetism in reserve to effect personnel changes, stand up to meddlesome owners, shut up noisy talk radio hosts, etc etc.

I think Wally would be somewhat beholden to the folks who hired him and not so "juicy" at least not right away and/or without the OK to be that way.

Frayed Knot
Sep 13 2010 10:14 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

McCarver said many years ago - like 20 or more - that he thought about going the manager route at one point but conceded that once the booth biz turned out to be so lucrative for him there's no way he'd give up the security of it for the hours & volatility of the dugout. Now at his age (70?) there's not a chance in the world.

And "based on things he's said" is nothing more than his current job description. Every announcer is a candidate or wannabe based on that logic and the only one I can think of who went right from the booth to the dugout is Larry Dierker. He was also much younger and the results were mixed at best.

Edgy DC
Sep 13 2010 10:16 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

If Tim McCarver was going to manage, 1988 would have been a good time to start. No way he's going to jump in at this age. (And even more certainly not in Flushing.) The salary, burden, and stability are probably a lot better doing what he's doing.

As for Tim Teufel, with the record he has, I'd be real gracious about continguing to be offered any sort of work.

Wins in the minors aren't necessaraily necessary to justify your continued employment, but they certainly help if you're thinking of expressing irk about lack of promotions.

SeasonTeamWLPctFinishPlayoffs
2003Brooklyn4728.6272Lost League Finals
2004St. Lucie6465.4967None
2005St. Lucie6668.4937None
2006Out of Org.
2007Savannah4194.30416None
2008St. Lucie5381.39612None
2009St. Lucie6668.4937None
2010Binghamton6676.465T-9None
Total403480.456Once

metsguyinmichigan
Sep 13 2010 10:20 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Isn't Terry Collins a name that gets tossed out there? I think he's got some role with the Mets.

bmfc1
Sep 13 2010 10:27 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Nice chart, thanks. I enjoyed your comments.

metirish
Sep 13 2010 10:32 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

bmfc1 wrote:
Nice chart, thanks. I enjoyed your comments.



Yes, I meant to comment on that....good work....in regards to your Wally comments...the media guys love him of course but I feel they would love to rip him down too and one reason I think they love him is the hope that he'll mess up while in the big job....it would be a "typical Mets move" then.

I take it your comment on his strategic rep is not a good one?

Edgy DC
Sep 13 2010 10:47 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

That's part of loving a guy as a candidate. A guy with a history of a "dynamic" personality is easier to write about, even if that means writing about what a disgrace he is. There have been more than one drumbeat for Lou Pinella in Mets history.

Ashie62
Sep 13 2010 11:00 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Great chart!

How come Jerry Manuel is not on it?

metsguyinmichigan
Sep 13 2010 11:01 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Speaking of Lou, does anyone else think that his "retirement" will be short-lived? Could he be in a Mets uni finally?

Frayed Knot
Sep 13 2010 11:04 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

metsguyinmichigan wrote:
Speaking of Lou, does anyone else think that his "retirement" will be short-lived? Could he be in a Mets uni finally?


Not me.

metirish
Sep 13 2010 11:05 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

metsguyinmichigan wrote:
Speaking of Lou, does anyone else think that his "retirement" will be short-lived? Could he be in a Mets uni finally?



For me , if you are going to hire a guy with a big personality with bags of experience and who's Italian then you hire Valentine....

Edgy DC
Sep 13 2010 11:05 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

I certainly wouldn't advocate for it.

He additionally strikes me as someone in terrible health, and he'd do well to use his retirement wisely in that regard.

Frayed Knot
Sep 13 2010 11:11 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

metirish wrote:
metsguyinmichigan wrote:
Speaking of Lou, does anyone else think that his "retirement" will be short-lived? Could he be in a Mets uni finally?



For me , if you are going to hire a guy with a big personality with bags of experience and who's Italian then you hire Valentine....


Piniella's heritage is Spanish -- but we get your point.
Besides, Lou is 67, not in the best of health, and is, I'm convinced, done for good.

metirish
Sep 13 2010 11:15 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

He's Spanish?.....I really thought he was Italian....

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Sep 13 2010 11:15 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

metsguyinmichigan wrote:
Isn't Terry Collins a name that gets tossed out there? I think he's got some role with the Mets.


Roving minor league coordinator since last year. Supposedly-- and evidently-- doing a fantastic job. The major league track record's a little iffy-- mostly, a bunch of second-place finishes and many burned bridges while working with some talent (the Killer Bs-plus-young-Hampton-and-Kile, the future core of the Angels 2002 team). But it's been a few years... and it bears noting that Bobby V had a similar looking track record when he came on board*.

*I'm not saying... I'm just saying.

Edgy DC
Sep 13 2010 11:17 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Other guys on the periphery of the radar screen

[list:1coan1a4][*:1coan1a4]Bob Brenly, currently broadcasting for the Cubbies.[/*:m:1coan1a4]
[*:1coan1a4]Tony Peña, currently bench coach for the Yankees.[/*:m:1coan1a4]
[*:1coan1a4]Gary Carter, currently head coach of the NCAA Division II Palm Beach Atlantic University Sailfish baseball team.[/*:m:1coan1a4]
[*:1coan1a4]Fredi Gonzalez, currently unattached, as far as I know, but I think is high on the list of potential Bobby Cox replacements.[/*:m:1coan1a4][/list:u:1coan1a4]

Ceetar
Sep 13 2010 11:23 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Ashie62 wrote:
Great chart!

How come Jerry Manuel is not on it?


who?

TheOldMole
Sep 13 2010 06:48 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

I'm surprised that Oberkfell isn't getting more serious mention. He's worked with all the young players who form the core of the Mets' future.

dgwphotography
Sep 13 2010 06:58 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Gotta love a guy whose nickname was 5-0-2-0

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Sep 13 2010 07:06 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

TheOldMole wrote:
I'm surprised that Oberkfell isn't getting more serious mention. He's worked with all the young players who form the core of the Mets' future.


Yes, he'll really need to play that up (or the Wilpons would need to weigh that category extra) to overcome big deficits in the Fan Appeal, Experience, Juice and Media categories.

metirish
Sep 13 2010 07:13 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Watch the Braves snap him up, he's from that area?

Edgy DC
Sep 13 2010 07:51 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Fredi Gonzalez lives in Marietta, Georgia --- commuting distance from the Ted.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Sep 14 2010 12:05 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Added a few more candidates and a column to track box-office appeal, you know the 'Pons will care about that.

bmfc1
Sep 14 2010 12:44 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

The Cubs are going to interview Bob Melvin:

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/n ... id=5571619

Benjamin Grimm
Sep 14 2010 12:51 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

It just occurred to me that maybe the Mets would consider replacing Jerry with their bench coach, and then I couldn't for the life of me think of who that bench coach might be. I finally had to look it up: Dave Jauss. Has Jauss said or done anything at all this year? Have the Mets ever had a lower profile bench coach?

metirish
Sep 14 2010 12:58 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
It just occurred to me that maybe the Mets would consider replacing Jerry with their bench coach, and then I couldn't for the life of me think of who that bench coach might be. I finally had to look it up: Dave Jauss. Has Jauss said or done anything at all this year? Have the Mets ever had a lower profile bench coach?


Good point , and I think the one time he took the helm when Jerry got booted from a game Manuel had some comments about an in-game move Jauss made.....can't recall the exact circumstances but Manuel didn't exactly back him up.

Edgy DC
Sep 14 2010 01:04 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

I think he got some small notoriety from a choice in a game while Jerry was tossed. He's tutored Thole on game-calling.

He's a well-respected guy in baseball, having gone from first-base coach to bench coach to director of player development in Boston. He reunited with Grady Little as bench coach on the Dodgers' staff, and the last two years had the same job with the Orioles. The Mets interviewed Eric Wedge* and Bob Melvin for the job before he got it. He's coached a lot of benches.

*Candidate?

TransMonk
Sep 14 2010 01:14 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Jauss fully managed this victory:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes ... 7270.shtml

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=14389

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Sep 14 2010 01:51 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote:
Added a few more candidates and a column to track box-office appeal, you know the 'Pons will care about that.


Like the thought.

But Torre's got at least as much appeal here as Valentine (at least in terms of media attention-- I'm not sure I've EVER bought a ticket with the manager in mind).

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Sep 14 2010 02:01 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

We're freaks who watch these clowns no matter who's behind the wheel.

But I was thinking of those fence sitters for whom the hiring of a high-profile leader could make a difference; and of the manager as a salesman. You'd have to if you're the Wilpons.

I'll upgrade Torre to "more than some" I figure the MFY-Mets games sell out anyway though.

Benjamin Grimm
Sep 14 2010 02:05 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

I'd love to think that Davey Johnson will be a candidate, but I suspect that's very unlikely.

metirish
Sep 14 2010 02:43 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Strawberry apparently has shown great smarts in managing his new restaurant , I'm throwing him in the mix.

Edgy DC
Sep 14 2010 02:56 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Davey seems like a new man in semi-retirement, but his work in international tournaments strikes me as him having lost some of his competitive edge. I'd really like a manager who wouldn't have felt a need to regularly swap Jeter and Jimmy Rollins in for each other mid-game in the World Baseball Classic.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Sep 14 2010 03:00 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

metirish wrote:
Strawberry apparently has shown great smarts in managing his new restaurant , I'm throwing him in the mix.


LOL

Edgy DC
Sep 14 2010 08:43 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

CandidateML ExperienceMet HeritageWill work for Peanuts?Media CharmStrategic Rep'Leader of Men' RepFan AppealGood with 'Kids'?JuiceBox-Office Power
Gary CarterNuttin'ExcellentAs a Hall-of Famer, he'd probably get more than your standard rookie salary. A couple of clicks up, at least.Very strong, but probably has an influential minority of detractors.Unknown, though he managed mostly winners in the minors.Very good, but perhaps strongest in his mind.High quotient of fan appeal, especially with your mother.His success in the minors suggests so.Hall of Famers have leverage, and he's not afraid to use it, but may certainly overplay his hand, as he has in the past. Now he's a Hall of Famer coaching at a Division II college and paying for his own drinks.1986 sells.

Edgy DC
Sep 16 2010 10:38 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Listed in the mix for the Marlins: Peña, Larry Bowa, Backman, Valentine (still), and Edwin Rodriguez, of course.

Nobody's mentinoed Bowa as a potential Met manager, have they?

Benjamin Grimm
Sep 16 2010 10:47 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Not that I've seen.

I wonder if there are any rumors about other teams being interested in Jerry Manuel. I expect that he'll just be chillin' back home in California next year.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Sep 16 2010 11:07 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

I read somewhere that Jerry's got a standing offer to help launch a baseball program at a small college in Norcal, that's the kinda thing he's probably better suited for anyway. I can see him doing that, then coming home to a rocking chair, a lemonade and a good book on his porch with his wife at dusk.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Sep 16 2010 11:23 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote:
I read somewhere that Jerry's got a standing offer to help launch a baseball program at a small college in Norcal, that's the kinda thing he's probably better suited for anyway. I can see him doing that, then coming home to a rocking chair, a lemonade and a good book on his porch with his wife at dusk.


Yes, but whither the chuckling? WHEN DOES A MAN GET TO CHUCKLE TO HIMSELF IN FRONT OF MANY, MANY CAMERAS AND REPORTERS IN PEACE?

metirish
Sep 17 2010 01:43 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

LA Times reports Torre to step down at season end and Don Mattingly to take over.

Benjamin Grimm
Sep 17 2010 01:45 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

I think Mattingly was the lame alternative to Jerry that I most feared. Glad to see he'll be tied down in LA.

Edgy DC
Sep 17 2010 02:12 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

CandidateML ExperienceMet HeritageWill work for Peanuts?Media CharmStrategic Rep'Leader of Men' RepFan AppealGood with 'Kids'?JuiceBox-Office Power
Eric Wedge

561-573 record in seven years with Cleveland. One divison championship followed by an ALDS victory over the Yankees, and a loss to the Sawx. Youngest manager in the league for most of his tenure. Manager of the year runner up in 2005, winner in 2007.None. [crossout]Never played[/crossout]Played less than 40 games in the majors. (Thanks for the correction below.)No. He's several years of experience, and therefore leverage.Engaging and humble with the press. Has been known to play the media to put pressure on his players.Mixed.Has been known to stick with players through down times, and had a lot of loyalty amoong them when he went down.He has no East Coast experience (though he retains some ties to Boston and was drafted by the Sox), so is mostly a stranger in these parts, but he has a young family, he's energetic, and he does charity work for youth sports. That won't help him much up front.He has a reputation for showing too much faith in lesser young talents. Josh Barfield and Jeremy Sowers may be two such examples.He's got a Manager of the Year in his pocket and a lot of teams are shopping. If they Mets don't hire him, someone else will sooner, rather than later.Not much at all.

MFS62
Sep 17 2010 04:03 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

And Wedge was in Star Wars, Epidodes IV, V and VI.
He survived all three final battles.

Later

Gwreck
Sep 18 2010 08:29 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

For what it's worth, Eric Wedge *did* play in the majors in the early '90s (not very much).

Ashie62
Sep 18 2010 10:22 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
I think Mattingly was the lame alternative to Jerry that I most feared. Glad to see he'll be tied down in LA.


Mattingly is dead from the neck up.

Edgy DC
Sep 20 2010 08:58 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

CandidateML ExperienceMet HeritageWill work for Peanuts?Media CharmStrategic Rep'Leader of Men' RepFan AppealGood with 'Kids'?JuiceBox-Office Power
Terry Collins, 61, currently minor league field coordinator with the Mets.

Compiled a 444-434 record in five seasons plus part of a sixth for Houston and Anaheim. Finished second each of his full seasons. Also managed the Oryx Buffalo in Japan and the Chinese national team in the WBC.None, but he replaced Art Howe in Houston.Not expensive, but doubtful he'd take peanuts.Hard to tell, but he managed the Buffalo Bisons as long ago as 1989-1991 and remains a popular figure with the media there. His hiring as Mets minor-league field coordinator was largely seen as a gesture by Omar Minaya of his commitment to Buffalo.Mixed, but on the poor side of mixed. I found some old sabermetric articles that didn't like him.Seems the type that the players rally around during good times and hate at bad times.

Players petitioned for his dismissal in Anaheim. That can't be good.
He may be popular in Buffalo, but would likely be seen by Mets fans as a thoughtless retread hire of a white-hair.He is well thought of in his current role as minor league field coordinator, a role he previously held for the Dodgers. Perhaps he's a good drill seargeant and that act doesn't play as well with big-league millionaires.Little.I've never seen his name on a marquee.

Edgy DC
Sep 20 2010 09:16 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Cool storyabout the end of his tenure with Anaheim. As the team faded in the second half under a series of injuries, GM Bill Bavasi and the front office gave Collins a vote of confidence. But when Colins got wind of the petition drive to oust him, he did what he perceived as the honorable thing and resigned, lifting the pressure off of Bavasi --- sacrificing himself, in effect, for his boss' sake.

As composed and measured as he is in public, Bavasi has an intense, emotional side. Perhaps the greatest example came six autumns ago, when he walked into the Angels' combative, noxious clubhouse with news to deliver. On that Friday, in the final weeks of his tenure as GM, Bavasi had to inform his petulant players that their manager, Terry Collins, had resigned.

Bavasi went into the vacant manager's office and rolled out an empty chair. He pulled it into the middle of the room as the ballplayers watched.

"Who wants it?" he said, breaking the silence.

He paused for effect. "You all seem to think you could do the job."

He nodded at different faces around the room: "You? You?"

Silence.

metirish
Sep 20 2010 11:04 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

The drumbeat is starting with vigor for Torre right?, you can see it now with various articles.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Sep 20 2010 11:56 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

metirish wrote:
The drumbeat is starting with vigor for Torre right?, you can see it now with various articles.


Drumbeat? I think that's the sound of me banging my head against my desk that you're hearing, there.

Willets Point
Sep 20 2010 12:15 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Can Torre win without a roster of juiced-up robo-players?

metirish
Sep 20 2010 12:25 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote:
metirish wrote:
The drumbeat is starting with vigor for Torre right?, you can see it now with various articles.


Drumbeat? I think that's the sound of me banging my head against my desk that you're hearing, there.



LOL....me too.....but you know he's a media darling now with the NY writers.....LupicaDick had him being paired with Backman as the understudy.

Edgy DC
Sep 20 2010 12:39 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Nah, Torre would have Bob Bailor or Doug Flynn as the understudy.

Kong76
Sep 20 2010 03:50 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

If Torre is the Mets manager next year I may very well renounce them.

Frayed Knot
Sep 21 2010 08:14 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

"I am curious,” [about potential interest from the Mets about their managing job]. “When the season is over, I hope the phone will be ringing.” -- So said Joe Torre to Mike Francesa on yesterday's radio show.

Didn't take long for his not-quite final statements about not returning to the dugout to turn into "hope" that he'll get offers, or at least draw interest.

MFS62
Sep 21 2010 08:26 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Frayed Knot wrote:
"I am curious,” [about potential interest from the Mets about their managing job]. “When the season is over, I hope the phone will be ringing.” -- So said Joe Torre to Mike Francesa on yesterday's radio show.

We've wondered whether Jeff Wilpon listens to the fans.
I hope he never listens to Francessa('s show).

Later

attgig
Sep 21 2010 08:49 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

gary carter? =)

Edgy DC
Sep 21 2010 09:04 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Frayed Knot wrote:
"I am curious,” [about potential interest from the Mets about their managing job]. “When the season is over, I hope the phone will be ringing.” -- So said Joe Torre to Mike Francesa on yesterday's radio show.

Didn't take long for his not-quite final statements about not returning to the dugout to turn into "hope" that he'll get offers, or at least draw interest.

So much for the notion that nobody with sense or leverage would be interested in working for Jeff Wilopon.

dgwphotography
Sep 21 2010 09:14 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Kong76 wrote:
If Torre is the Mets manager next year I may very well renounce them.


I thought I was the only one thinking this way...

Benjamin Grimm
Sep 21 2010 09:16 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

After 40 seasons, it will take a lot more than Joe Torre for me to "renounce" them.

A few more seasons like 2009 and 2010, though, and my interest may hit an all-time low.

Centerfield
Sep 21 2010 09:29 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

After 25+ seasons, it will take a lot more than Joe Torre for me to "renounce" them.

A few more seasons like 2009 and 2010, though, and my interest may hit an all-time low.

Edgy DC
Sep 21 2010 09:37 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

I made it through Torre once. I can probably make it through twice.

I may be wrong, but he seemed a responsible bullpen user as Yankee manager. But Jerry's blown my perspective shot and everybody else looks responsible right now.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Sep 21 2010 09:53 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Torre I always thought influenced Willie: Definitely didn't trust everyone in the pen, but strongly devoted to a few. I wouldn't consider it model bullpenning.

Torre' strength though the years has been tremendous respect from the players. He out-juiced Gayrod on the MFYs, that's saying something. I could see where that kind of influence would help the Mets though I would hope that if they spent the $$ it would take to get Joe they would do better to also spend it with Bobby.

batmagadanleadoff
Sep 21 2010 10:16 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Neil Allen was Torre's guy some thirty years ago. I remember arguing this issue with the older teens in my neighborhood --- making the point that Reardon was the better reliever of the two. Allen's stats were glitzier only because Torre used him like a modern day closer.

Edgy DC
Sep 21 2010 10:34 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

He used Reardon when behind and Allen when ahead. Both were good, and interestingly both bought them an All Star hitter in mid-career believed to be coked out and prematurely washed up. Reardon bought them the one that actually was, and Allen bought them the one that wasn't.

I don't know that Torre's usage was decidely detrimental to the team. They both got plenty of work. They both had a good idea of when they would be used, and that's important for their mental prep work. But one of them got his ego fed more --- I don't know if it really mattered as much on payday back then who got the saves, but it mattered some.

Both also eventually wrestled with depression issues.

Frayed Knot
Sep 21 2010 10:40 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Edgy DC wrote:
I may be wrong, but he seemed a responsible bullpen user as Yankee manager. But Jerry's blown my perspective shot and everybody else looks responsible right now.


Torre the Yank usually had almost a two-tiered caste system with his pen in most years. He had his "good guys" - most notably the Rivera, Stanton, Nelson trio in the dominant years with the set-up men changing slightly later on - and then the fill-in types. The good ones rarely worked except in close games while the others were used almost strictly in mop up roles.
Now sometimes that kind of usage is determined more by personnel than the other way around and so the fact that his 'big three' were so good for a while at the same time that ownership used to pick the oddest places (often the back of the pen) to make a show of "cutting" payroll probably forced him into that kind of usage where in a different scenario he would operate differently.
Yanqui fans used to get upset that he was 'giving up' when, after not going to his horses down by a couple in the middle innings, the game would blow up on him but of course that meant that they were not just available but also fresh when the next game was closer and his teams not only scored more and gave up fewer than just about anyone else in those days but they also beat their 'pythagorean projections' more often than not.

Later on, when the set-up crew wasn't nearly as good, Torre would stand accused of totally over-working the likes of Tanyon Sturtze and others who were not as good as Stanton/Nelson at their best but were the best Joe had leading up to Rivera and so the two-tiered system was suddenly not as effective. Funny how that works sometimes.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Sep 21 2010 10:45 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

What's his name that guy, Torre used him all the time then he followed him to LA. Hard thrower from the Dodgers in the Ventura deal. Bradley. Reynolds. Dammit, brain fried.

Frayed Knot
Sep 21 2010 10:52 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Scott Proctor probably.
Paul Quantrill also was a cog on the Torre abuse-train for a season or two.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Sep 21 2010 11:23 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Yup Proctor.

Edgy DC
Sep 21 2010 01:18 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Frayed Knot wrote:
Yanqui fans used to get upset that he was 'giving up' when, after not going to his horses down by a couple in the middle innings, the game would blow up on him but of course that meant that they were not just available but also fresh when the next game was closer and his teams not only scored more and gave up fewer than just about anyone else in those days but they also beat their 'pythagorean projections' more often than not.

And this is where I give him credit. Jerry used his horses any time the game was within reach, which meant most every day --- until the good guys fell apart and got asisgned to the bad guys part of the pen. Fernando Nieve Syndrome, baby.

But, to judge from the above few posts, Torre suffered from FNS in the latter half of his tenure also.

Benjamin Grimm
Sep 21 2010 01:31 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

It's so strange that this conversation is even taking place. Joe Torre as a future Mets manager? Thirty years later??? The same guy who managed Ed Kranepool, Jerry Koosman, and Jerry Grote might manage Ike Davis, Jon Niese and Josh Thole???

Kong76
Sep 21 2010 05:39 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
After 40 seasons, it will take a lot more than Joe Torre for me to "renounce" them.

A few more seasons like 2009 and 2010, though, and my interest may hit an all-time low.

Centerfield wrote:
After 25+ seasons, it will take a lot more than Joe Torre for me to "renounce" them.

A few more seasons like 2009 and 2010, though, and my interest may hit an all-time low.


Well really, who am I kidding anyway ... I'm like the drug addict
who can't hold a razor in the morning and says he's kickin' for good
and is out on the streets by noon ...

Benjamin Grimm
Sep 22 2010 09:51 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Beth Harris, Associated Press wrote:
Torre said if he was looking for a job, and he’s not, he wouldn’t have gone to New York.

“I think people tend to forget that I spent 12 years with the Yankees and formed too good of a relationship with their fans to move across the water and all of a sudden make them mad at me,” he said.

“I’m closing the door on managing the Mets, and probably everybody else. I don’t want to mislead anybody.”


What a weenie.

Edgy DC
Sep 22 2010 09:53 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

So, do you think of Collins as a candidate? He's running the team's fall instructional workouts right now. (They're not in St. Lucie, but instead borrowing fields from the Red Sox, because no other team near St. Lucie was working out minor leaguers this fall.)

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Sep 22 2010 10:16 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

The New Skipper Candidate Scorecard doesn't indicate he'd be much of a contender.

HahnSolo
Sep 22 2010 10:18 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

The whole player mutiny thing (deserved or not) might be a red flag.

Edgy DC
Sep 22 2010 10:25 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

This interview from May suggests he's got the respect of Omar and the ownership, was a serious candidate back in 2004, and any strides forward by the team in development this season have to refelect well on him, but he closes by experssing disinterest in returning to the hot seat.

Q&A with Mets minor-league field coordinator Terry Collins
Published: Monday, May 03, 2010, 12:00 PM
pdated: Sunday, May 02, 2010, 11:35 PM

Brian Costa/The Star-Ledger



The Mets’ farm system, much-maligned last summer, has had a mini-resurgence this year. The emergence of Ike Davis, Jenrry Mejia and Jon Niese has helped the Mets at the major-league level. And there is considerably more depth at the upper levels of the farm system, which was barren by the end of last summer.



Triple-A Buffalo is in first place in the International League's north division at 15-9, and Double-A Binghamton has the second best record in the Eastern League, at 14-9.

Toward the end of spring training, I talked to Mets minor-league field coordinator Terry Collins, who was hired during the offseason to help fill the void left by the firing of Tony Bernazard, the former vice president of player development.

Collins, 60, managed the Angels and Astros in the 1990s and interviewed for the Mets’ managerial opening in late 2004. Most recently, he managed the Orix Buffaloes in the Japanese Professional League.

Collins talked about his approach to the job, his thoughts on how quickly to move players up through the system, and whether he wants to be a major-league manager again.

Q: Why did you take this job?
A: “It came about when I came back from Japan late last summer. Omar (Minaya) called and said, ‘Hey, what are you going to do?’ I hadn’t thought about it, but I said I was going to make some calls at the end of the season and see what might be out there, and he said, ‘We might have an opportunity. I’d love to have you join the organization.’ We’ve been friends for many years. When I interviewed for the job when Willie (Randolph) got the job, I thought it was the best interview I had been through. The most comprehensive. I was very impressed. So I said, ‘Let me know what’s available.’ So he called me over the winter and said, ‘Look, I have this field coordinator’s job,’ which I had just done with the Dodgers before I went to Japan. He said, ‘Would you be interested?’ I said yeah. So I went in and interviewed and they hired me.”

Q: What do you like about working on the player development side?
A: “This game is about player development. Obviously the major leagues are where the money is, but the nuts and bolts of this game are scouting and player development. That’s how everybody got there. And to see a young player get better and improve, it’s really fun. These guys keep you young. They’re young, they’re energetic, they’re fun to be around, so I like it. I enjoyed it with the Dodgers. I went to Japan because I craved getting back on the field. I was also the farm director for the Dodgers besides the field coordinator. I’m a field guy. So when this came about I thought gosh, I enjoyed it once. I’d enjoy it again.”

Q: What does the job of a minor-league field coordinator entail?
A: “Basically, in spring training I outline the daily stuff and we talk about what needs to be taught and what certain players need to work on. We come up with a game plan for how we go about teaching it. Then once the season starts, I go from team to team to make sure stuff is getting done, make sure players are getting better not just on the individual side but the team side. Making sure some of the plans we set down in spring training are being followed. My whole thing I tell coaches is, when I come back into town the next time, something had better be better. Whether it’s cutoffs or relay throws or whatever, something had better be better.”

Q: You look like you have more energy at 8 a.m. than some of these guys have at noon. Where does that come from?
“I don’t know. I guess it’s just me. I have a lot of energy. It drives some people crazy. I care about the game a lot. I respect the game a lot. So I put energy back into it. I’ve always felt along the way that people will, especially when you’re managing a team, your players will take on your personality a little bit. I’ve seen it work, so I try to make sure each day I bring some energy to the field, because I want the staff and players to have the same thing. As a matter of fact, I run from field to field, and they tease me every day. When they see me walking, they tease me about not running. As long as they do it, they can tease me all they want.”

Q: Last year obviously was a tough year for this system. Is there something in particular you feel you can bring that will help?
A: “I have to be honest, I’ve heard all the stories about the last few years. I wasn’t here, so it’s hard for me to talk about it. The only thing I can tell you is what I did in Los Angeles and how we went about it, and the players bought into it. ... There was a plan in place. We tried to make it fun. It’s hard game. They have to understand that, but there’s a way to go about it. So I’ve tried to bring that here, a philosophy of, ‘Look, let’s enjoy it when we’re out here. Let’s get the work done. Let’s go home and come back tomorrow.’”

Q: It seems like it’s been a good spring for several of the upper-level prospects, at least the ones we’ve seen on the major-league side. What’s been your early impression from what you’ve seen?
A: “They’ve got some players here. There are some legitimate prospects here. There are guys on the pitching side who have really good arms. Now we’ve got to get them to throw strikes. On the position player side, they’ve got some talent here. They’ve got some guys who can swing the bat. They don’t have a lot of speed, but we’ve got some players that have the ability to be pretty good base runners. So I think there’s something to build on, for sure. We’re going to try to slow the process down just a bit. I know everybody wants to rush players to the big leagues. I think that can be a hindrance as much as it can be a help. I do believe players need to be challenged when the time comes. They need to learn how to fail, because they’re going to be humbled in the big leagues sometime. They need to learn that in the minor leagues, how to get through those things. So when the time is right, we’re going to challenge them. But to put them over their heads right now and let them drown, I don’t think that’s fair. I believe in playing with confidence. I really think that means something. And I want to move players up, not back.”

Q: Do you still want to be a major-league manager again one day? Is that still a goal?
A: “It isn’t. I did my thing. I had a great time. I was very fortunate to be around good players. When I first got my first major-league managing job, my whole thing was to prove that I belonged there, and I think I did that. So for me, I’m happy doing what I’m doing. I’m working with great people. My job right now is to build this organization up to where our minor leagues are going to produce not only major-league players for the Mets but major-league players throughout baseball. So if Omar needs to make a trade to make them better, we’ve got pieces that can help.”

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Sep 22 2010 10:54 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

I like him where he is.

Unrelatedly, he's got a small face.

Edgy DC
Sep 22 2010 10:58 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

I do also.

I wouldn't mind him on Bobby's staff, perhaps, as an alternative.

Frayed Knot
Sep 22 2010 11:00 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
Beth Harris, Associated Press wrote:
Torre said if he was looking for a job, and he’s not, he wouldn’t have gone to New York.

“I think people tend to forget that I spent 12 years with the Yankees and formed too good of a relationship with their fans to move across the water and all of a sudden make them mad at me,” he said.

“I’m closing the door on managing the Mets, and probably everybody else. I don’t want to mislead anybody.”


What a weenie.



Yeah really. Not to mention how what he's essentially saying is; 'today I'm telling you the truth and I was lying yesterday'.
You're already in a hole Joe. Stop digging and STFU.


And while we're on the subject -- a Tim Kurkjian radio interview praised the Mattingly hire saying he was a really smart player in his day and is a lot tougher than his calm demeanor lets on. "I'll tell you what" Tim added [paraphrasing], "guys like Matt Kemp and others won't get away with the loafing they've been getting away with this year"
Ummm, isn't that a pretty strong indictment of Torre?

Edgy DC
Sep 22 2010 11:04 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Not to mention a strong indictment of Torre's staff, including Mattingly.

metirish
Sep 22 2010 11:11 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

A mess not of the Mets making.....glad it's happening though and he won't be coming here.

Meanwhile twitter is saying that Bobby V is not on any list for the Marlins, apparently that flirtation has come and gone....

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Sep 22 2010 11:19 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Perhaps the Mets can do Donnie Baseball a favor and take Matt Kemp off his list of projects for his first year.

bmfc1
Sep 22 2010 11:19 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Pearlman thinks it will be Bob Melvin:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/w ... ndex.html#

We root for a "stale dish of plain noodles."

(As of this writing, Pearlman hasn't changed his mind.)

Edgy DC
Sep 22 2010 11:23 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Read that first paragraph again. It's like he wakes up and says, "Well, fuck, I still hate myself."

What the hell is wrong with him?

On edit: I just completed it. He's officially transformed himself from bold, hardworking investigative reporter to deliberately hateful tabloid hack. It's heartbreaking.

HahnSolo
Sep 22 2010 11:34 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Backman is as beloved in New York as a Dr. Brown's Cel-Ray soda.


WTF? Does anybody drink that crap?

They tempt their fans with Lou Piniella and Dusty Baker,


I don't recall the Met-Nation all-night bender that had us being tempted by Dusty Baker.

Bengie Molina is seeking a catching gig? Meh -- we can land Rod Barajas!


And this was a bad move why?

metsguyinmichigan
Sep 22 2010 11:41 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

I don't know how I made it past this second paragraph:

Come season's end (and for Mets fans, that day arrived two months ago), the Mets will fire manager Jerry Manuel and have their pick of three drastically different-yet-all-perfectly suited candidates to fill a position once held by such luminaries as Mike Cubbage and Art Howe and, eh, never mind.

Cubbage managed all of seven games as an interim. And Howe, who admittedly was not a good fit in New York, did with three division championships with Oakland, and did manage in other places. It's like saying Girardi filled a slot once held by luminaries such as Clyde King and Stump Merrill. The "ah, never mind" part might have included two Hall-of-Famers in Stengel and Berra, a future Hall-of-Famer in Torre, a near-Hall-of-Famer in Hodges, a champion in Johnson and a pennant-winner in Valentine.

And the Mets are not terrible, as he says. At roughly .500, they are mediocre and under-achieving. The Pirates are terrible. There's a difference.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Sep 22 2010 12:16 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

I have quite literally never heard of Cel-Ray soda, much less heard a New Yorker wax philosophic about its charms (much LESS heard New Yorkers-- plural-- give it verbal love).

Perhaps it's popular in whatever straw-man-populated area of Brooklyn* where Pearlman lives these days.


*Drybroomsburg, actually. They're not much for conversation-- hell, they tend to just let you pummel them in any conflict situation-- but it's way fun for the kids. The arsonists, too.

Benjamin Grimm
Sep 22 2010 12:21 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

I remember seeing that celery-flavored soda on sale in stores when I was at NYU in the first half of the 80's. An older guy that I worked with was certain that I'd love it, but since I didn't like celery, I had no interest in sampling celery-flavored soda. Now, though, I think I'd give it a try.

Benjamin Grimm
Sep 22 2010 12:25 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Dr Brown's Cel-Ray soda is a soft drink with a celery flavor. It is fairly easy to find in New York City and in South Florida. Outside the New York City and Miami regions, it is rather obscure but can sometimes be found at Jewish delicatessens and restaurants. In addition, it can be found at certain grocers that specialize in American food in Israel, and other specialty grocers.

The flavor, derived from celery seed extract, is reminiscent of ginger ale but with a pronounced celery flavor that is more pungent or peppery than ginger ale.

Dr. Brown’s Celery Tonic was, according to the company, first produced in 1868 in Brooklyn, NY. The Food and Drug Administration objected to its being called a “tonic,” and in the 1900s the name was changed to Dr. Brown’s Cel-Ray (soda). Cel-Ray was so popular in the 1930s among New York City's Jewish community, that it earned the nickname "Jewish Champagne." Dr. Brown’s briefly produced a diet Cel-Ray, but it was discontinued due to low sales. Other “celery tonics"/"celery sodas” were produced in the 1890s, but only Dr. Brown’s celery product remains today.

Dr. Brown’s sodas are kosher and can be found in many delis.



Dr. Brown’s Cel-Ray® soda has its admirers and detractors. Much speculation surrounds the invention of this soda, which in its infancy was a mix of sugar, carbonated water, celery seed extract, and a few other flavors. Today the drink has gone the way of most sodas by adding the inferior high fructose corn syrup instead of sugar, and caramel coloring. It’s still an admired drink by many who grew up with it, especially those who would order it in Kosher or Jewish delicatessens. In fact Cel-Ray® soda has been dubbed the Jewish champagne, since many considered it the perfect accompaniments to salty meats like pastrami.

Today, Dr. Brown’s Cel-Ray® soda is made by Canada Dry®. Initially the drink was developed in the late 1860s, and may have been sold as celery tonic instead of Cel-Ray® soda. The world questions the existence of a Dr. Brown who supposedly invented the drink. There is suggestion that a true Dr. Brown may have been a doctor in Brooklyn who invented the drink and who had a friend in the bottling business. No matter who the inventor was, Cel-Ray® soda soon became popular, especially in delicatessens as a nice light drink, rather than as a health tonic.

Unlike most soft drinks, Cel-Ray® soda has more bitterness, and you’ll probably want to be a fan of celery prior to trying it. Most early soft drinks were considered healthful, but this is dubious, especially today, given the high fructose corn syrup the drink contains. It’s certainly not a health tonic, but instead a light, greenish tasting accompaniment best served with savory, salty or heavily spiced foods. People praise it as a fantastic drink on hot days when serving deli sandwiches.

Many suggest the drink is an acquired taste, and others assert they could never acquire a liking for it. Supporters generally are used to it and have enjoy Cel-Ray® soda since childhood. Detractors tend to try it as adults and find it absolutely wretched. Some can’t get past the overt celery smell when a bottle or can is opened. If you’re a traditionalist who likes your soda sweet, you might try a few other Dr. Brown sodas. The cream soda is considered one of the finest on the market, though it too has diverged from its original recipe by being made with high fructose corn syrup.

On the other hand, if you’re out having a big pastrami sandwich, you might want to pick up a can of Cel-Ray® soda and give it a try. Many people swear by the fantastic flavor which offsets salty meats. If you’re lucky enough to be in a Jewish delicatessen, you’ll likely find the drink available.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-dr-brow ... y-soda.htm



themetfairy
Sep 22 2010 12:36 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Dr. Brown's Diet Cream is a classic.

The celery soda made a pop culture appearance in the movie Tootsie; that's what was spilled over the third reel that necessitated the live shooting towards the end of the film.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Sep 22 2010 12:49 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Oh, the Diet Cream is great. (As is the Diet Black Cherry.) I love me some Dr. Brown's. I just am unfamiliar with the celery soda. I'd try it... but with limited expectations. I mean, in an absolute best-case scenario, it tastes remarkably like celery, right?

I don't know the guy, really, so you guys who do, please feel free to tell me if I'm off. Pearlman seems like he's reached the place in his career where he's kindasorta rooting for bad stuff to happen to folk, so that he's got something to write about that doesn't bore him.

Edgy DC
Sep 24 2010 09:29 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Joe Torre gets low marks on the David Wells scorecard.

Willets Point
Sep 24 2010 09:59 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

David Wells only pitched for the Yankees for four seasons of his career? It sure felt that his Yuckiness lasted a lot longer than that.

bmfc1
Sep 24 2010 11:46 AM

I think it will be Bobby V. Here's why:

Next year could be a Knicks-like year for the Mets. No, that doesn't mean that they'll hire Isiah Thomas or draft a stiff from France. By that, I mean that with so many big contracts set to expire after '11 (Beltran, Castillo, Perez) and ownership alleged to have money woes, they will tread water financially in '11 and then plan to spend on FA's in '12. That means what we have now is what we'll get. And that means another .500-ish season. With no new big names, ticket sales will continue to drop. A way to try to counteract that is with a big name manager and that's Bobby Valentine.

He is supposed to want big money but I would think that he would take a discount to be able to live at his home in Connecticut and manage in a place with so many promotional opportunities.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Sep 24 2010 11:58 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

bmfc1 wrote:
He is supposed to want big money but I would think that he would take a discount to be able to live at his home in Connecticut and manage in a place with so many promotional opportunities.


Hypothetical: You're fired from your job after a brief downturn in your team's performance (which follows a protracted period of success), somewhat unfairly. You leave to find work overseas and are successful there, too. You return to the country, and there's interest from many firms in your field... including the one that fired you (which is run at the top by the same people). Given that you've increased your desirability in the interim, why the h-e-dub-hockey-sticks would you give your ex-employers a discount?

Edgy DC
Sep 24 2010 12:03 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Almost half the league is manager shopping, and with your face on ESPN, you're going to be in the conversation for all of them. That's too good a position for somebody to be in to expect him to take a discounted price, especially under the assumption that your team is richer and more valuable than any of the others.

That and the difficulty for powerful people of admitting mistakes are two big speedbumps for the Bobby Bandwagon, but still I hope.

Lefty Specialist
Sep 24 2010 12:29 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

I think there's a fair amount of bad blood between Bobby and the Wilpons, but the absence of Steve Phillips makes it slightly easier to come back.

He won't take a discount. There's plenty of demand for his services and he's already turned down at least one job that we know of (the Marlins).

Bobby's good at managing a young team and getting them to overperform, as he did with the 97-98 Mets. Considering the 2011 team is shaping up to be a lot of kids, this is not a bad fit in that sense.

I think Beltran will have to go if Bobby V takes over, though, because he rankles veterans and gets on their case. He picks a player to humiliate each year, although 'humiliate' is probably too strong a word. He did it with Todd Hundley. He did it with Brian McRae. Not that they didn't deserve it, but they may not have deserved it as publicly as he did it.

And that gets to the essence of Bobby. It's HIS team. More than money to come back, he wants control. That means veto power over the GM. And he'll give plenty of quotes that'll have you cringing.

Bobby wears thin after a while. The kids become veterans and stop listening. The Todd Zeiles, Robby Alomars, Jeromy Burnitzes didn't buy into Bobby V. Neither did Rickey Henderson (not that he'd buy into anybody). I think we forget that when Bobby finally got fired, there was a sense of relief among Met-dom. He started well, but by 2002 he'd stayed too long at the fair.

Nobody manages in-game better. He undressed Tony LaRussa in the 2000 NLCS. But I just have a feeling it won't go as well this time around.

Benjamin Grimm
Sep 24 2010 12:32 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

And if Bobby was willing to work as far from Connecticut as Japan is, I don't know that he'd flinch at working in Miami or Atlanta or wherever else there might be an opening.

bmfc1
Sep 24 2010 12:39 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote:
Given that you've increased your desirability in the interim, why the h-e-dub-hockey-sticks would you give your ex-employers a discount?


Valid question. I would say because you've recently returned from many years of working half-way across the world, you live in CT, have a restaurant in CT that's more valuable if you're Mets manager http://www.bobbyv.com/ , don't want to live in Seattle or Chicago where you'll be away from home again, and because you're 60, love NY and New Yorkers love you so you'll be able to endorse more things than you would in Seattle or Chicago, and want to conclude your managing career in NY.

Edgy DC
Sep 24 2010 12:53 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

I haven't read anything about bad blood. I assumed their was residual fondness amid the professional bitterness. I imagine it's nothing a few dollars can't cure.

The hurdle, I think, is pride --- and more than a little. He'll likely want more control over his roster and his job security than he had last time around.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Sep 24 2010 12:55 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

I'm beginning to think the key to the next Mets manager depends on his relationship not with the Wilpons, but of the relationship with the new president/GM arrangement they are talking about now.

I've all but convinced myself that Kasten is en route, he fits the Wilpons' criteria as an unemployed, experienced, "white haired baseball man" and his being a native NYer and member of the Tribe probably doesn't hurt.

bmfc1
Sep 24 2010 12:58 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote:
I've all but convinced myself that Kasten is en route, he fits the Wilpons' criteria as an unemployed, experienced, "white haired baseball man" and his being a native NYer and member of the Tribe probably doesn't hurt.


I agree with you. Predictions: Jerry DiPoto, GM; Stan Kasten, President (or some other all-encompassing title).

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Sep 24 2010 12:59 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

I can deal with that. DiPoto could GM in uniform, maybe.

metirish
Sep 24 2010 01:00 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Metsblog is trying to convince that there are internal talks about a Valentine/Backman combo , an updated senario over there is quoting Lennon on a Bobby V with Omar staying on in his role and Jerry DiPoto being groomed.

Edgy DC
Sep 24 2010 01:00 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Can't see Jerry DiPoto getting the purse. Not this year, anywutz.

Lefty Specialist
Sep 24 2010 01:03 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Wally has already said he won't be a bench coach. And I doubt that Bobby V. would want to have a manager-in-waiting sitting next to him.

Benjamin Grimm
Sep 24 2010 01:24 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Edgy DC wrote:
Can't see Jerry DiPoto getting the purse. Not this year, anywutz.


Is he considered some kind of boy wonder or something? Did he do anything during his short time in Arizona to give him solid GM creds?

Edgy DC
Sep 24 2010 01:33 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

When did Backman say he wouldn't be a bench coach? That would seem awfully bridgeburny of him.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Sep 24 2010 01:35 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Is he considered some kind of boy wonder or something? Did he do anything during his short time in Arizona to give him solid GM creds?

His deal is that he's a Jersey native and a MLBS.

At Arizona, he did a little fire sale of Haren, Qualls & Edwin Jackson. Hard to say I suppose whether they were good deals or not.

metsguyinmichigan
Sep 24 2010 01:42 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Do you think the Mets are worried about potential criticism if they replace the first Hispanic GM and a black manager with a couple old white guys?

Personally, I'd love to see Kasten, and I'd love to see Bobby V. And while Backman might have said he doesn't want to be a bench coach, I suspect the opportunity to wear a Major League uniform and arrive to work at Citi Field is a lot more exciting than driving down Surf Avenue for a short season league.

HahnSolo
Sep 24 2010 01:53 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

I could see Wally being asked to go manage in Binghamton next year, or somewhere else up the organizational chain from Brooklyn.

If I were Wally, I'd find that preferrable to being bench coach to Bobby V. I'd also prefer that if Bobby V wanted a bench coach, that he'd be the one picking the guy, and not have that guy thrust on him by the organization.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Sep 24 2010 01:54 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

metsguyinmichigan wrote:
Do you think the Mets are worried about potential criticism if they replace the first Hispanic GM and a black manager with a couple old white guys?


No.

metirish
Sep 24 2010 01:54 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

metsguyinmichigan wrote:
Do you think the Mets are worried about potential criticism if they replace the first Hispanic GM and a black manager with a couple old white guys?


If they are then it's not warranted...

Benjamin Grimm
Sep 24 2010 01:56 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

I agree. After six straight years with a Hispanic GM and two black managers, I think they've shown that they don't discriminate.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Sep 24 2010 03:06 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

THE METS ARE RAYCESS AGAINST WHITE PEOPEL!

FIRE OMAR AND LOS METS!

Edgy DC
Sep 24 2010 07:46 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Outside of the overplayed "RAYCESS," I feel like I've read that post 100 times in the last six years.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Sep 25 2010 08:52 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Often, the toughest part of this little struggle of ours is the folks what's "on our side."

Edgy DC
Sep 25 2010 11:16 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Amen.

Ashie62
Sep 25 2010 11:55 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Lefty Specialist wrote:
Wally has already said he won't be a bench coach. And I doubt that Bobby V. would want to have a manager-in-waiting sitting next to him.


Spoilsport.

DocTee
Sep 25 2010 12:15 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Both Bob Brenly and Fredi Gonzalez have withdrawn their names from candidacy for the Cubs managerial slot. Eric Wedge and Sandberg have interviewed, and Bob Melvin is slated to do so (as are Don Wakamatsu, Pat Listach and incumbent Mike Quade) according to ESPN.

I think there will be over a dozen managerial changes this winter, and it's comforting to not see Bobby V among those apparently on the Cubs RADAR.

metirish
Oct 06 2010 07:43 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Jon Harper as predictable as the sun soming up has this on Wally...no matter who's the GM Wally must be the manager....'cos he's gritty and will add toughness to the team.....that would be a nice way for a new GM to start out, having a manager forced on him.


I have no doubt that young kids in their first year would be swayed by Backman's personality and gritty attitude(I have no idea if he is like that but it's what the media are saying), would major leaguers buy in to that?.....he's been portrayed as a Bowa type reaelly , right?



Wally Backman is a good bet to be next Mets manager, no matter what Wilpons say about GM's role

I believe the Wilpons are serious about letting a new GM lead them out of the wilderness, and it is the right way to go. They finally seem to understand how desperately the organization needs the type of direction and detailed planning that Omar Minaya never really provided.

But I also believe that as much as the Mets' owners said the GM will get to hire the new manager, odds are very good that Wally Backman will be in the dugout next season no matter who is running baseball operations.

Granted, it would be something of a gamble because Backman has never managed in the majors, and there's no guarantee that his Billy Martin-like intensity would inspire millionaires the way it has hungry minor leaguers.

But the timing would make it the right call, for a lot of reasons.

Let's start with toughness, the one intangible the Mets have lacked most in recent years. You only have to go back a couple of weeks for a glaring example, when the Mets let Chase Utley wipe out Ruben Tejada at second base with an over-the-line slide and did nothing to retaliate.

Oh, sure, Carlos Beltran managed to get in the way of a double play the next day, but he didn't even make contact, and when all was said and done, the Mets sent the message that they wouldn't stand up to the Phillies - the team that has bullied them in one way or another for four years.

I don't blame Jerry Manuel for the Mets' failures in recent years, but he clearly failed to instill enough grit in his ballclub. Somebody has to do it because there's no hard-edged leadership in their clubhouse.

David Wright, in fact, went out of his way not to call out Utley that night, telling reporters it was up to the rookie Tejada to pass judgment.

And Mets pitchers didn't so much as knock a Phillies' hitter down, never mind stick a fastball in Utley's ribs.

You can bet that if Backman had been managing, Utley would have paid during his next at-bat. And chances are a Met would have roll-blocked the second baseman after that.

Not that retaliating or even fighting is a cure-all for the Mets. Talent aside, however, winning in the big leagues starts with attitude, with the type of mental and physical toughness that has defined the Phillies and separated them from the Mets.

(Well, that and a farm system that allowed them to trade for Cliff Lee, Roy Halladay and Roy Oswalt over a 12-month period, but that's another story - and a reminder of one of Minaya's biggest failings.)

Backman would instill toughness, all right, and everywhere he has managed in the minors he has inspired great effort with his passion and his ability to relate to players.


Recently Marlins second baseman Dan Uggla, who played for Backman in the minors several years ago, was quoted as saying, "I would have run through a brick wall for him."

Backman has had his issues off the field, obviously, but he paid dearly for them when the Diamondbacks fired him four days after hiring him in 2004, and all indications are that he has grown up since those days when he was a member of the '86 wild bunch that won the Mets' last world championship.

The timing is right partly because the Mets aren't winning anything next year, as they wait for their bad contracts to expire before they spend again, as they integrate more young players into the mix, and as they wait on the return of Johan Santana from shoulder surgery - all meaning that Backman would get a season of low expectations to learn his way around Citi Field.

Meanwhile, Jeff Wilpon was very impressed by Backman's work with the Brooklyn Cyclones this season, and the former second baseman's popularity as a fiery '86 Met is something the club can sell to disillusioned ticket buyers.

Finally, Backman would not cost big bucks, which may be significant, and no matter what they are saying publicly, the owners have told people in the organization that they want a manager with ties to the Mets.

Bobby Valentine? Even if the Wilpons were OK with it, a new GM isn't going to want to bang heads with a manager notorious for wanting control. And while Lee Mazzilli is a former manager with Met ties, a new GM would have to want him badly to truly put him in play.

So believe it when the Wilpons say they won't pick the players for the new GM. Just don't think of it as a coincidence if they find a GM who wants Backman to be the manager.jharper@nydailynews.com



Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseb ... z11aNwZMUE

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Oct 27 2010 09:41 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

While some Mets people have a soft spot for Wally Backman, it will be a major upset if Alderson, the Harvard and Dartmouth educated former Marine, accedes to the wishes of incumbent Mets people and hires Backman.

Read more: [url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/baseball/mlb/10/26/mets.hire.alderson/#ixzz13ZdYgxgU


Who will be his guy?

Hale?
Mazzilli?
Clint Hurdle?!?

Benjamin Grimm
Oct 27 2010 09:53 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Well, we have that one tidbit about him preferring an Earl Weaver type to a Gene Mauch, and my hunch is that Backman (based on the kind of player he was, anyway) is on the Mauch side of the spectrum.

I also wonder about the reported desire to have a guy with "Mets ties." Sure, the Mets are on Chip Hale's resume, but I would think his "Met factor" is fairly low, much lower than Backman's, Mazzilli's, or Valentine's.

Is the "Mets ties" thing (if true; we can't be sure that it is) based on fan acceptance/familiarity?

And, finally, my mind keeps coming back to Tim Teufel, perhaps unreasonably. Might he be the three-run-homer guy with Mets ties that would satisfy both Alderson and the Wilpons? He's put up some losing records in the minor leagues as a manager, but I don't know if that's a reflection on him, on his roster, or both. But I do suspect that Tim will get some consideration.

Edgy DC
Oct 27 2010 09:56 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Has only managed as high as AA one year, and has actually put up some disastrous minor league records.

He may have a future, but I highly doubt it's this year.

HahnSolo
Oct 27 2010 10:00 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

While some Mets people have a soft spot for Wally Backman, it will be a major upset if Alderson, the Harvard and Dartmouth educated former Marine, accedes to the wishes of incumbent Mets people and hires Backman.

Read more: [url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/baseball/mlb/10/26/mets.hire.alderson/#ixzz13ZdYgxgU


Who will be his guy?

Hale?
Mazzilli?
Clint Hurdle?!?



Didn't someone post in the last day or so (not sure which thread) a Heymann tweet that Alderson had submitted a list of managerial candidates and that Backman was high on the list?

Edgy DC
Oct 27 2010 10:02 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Met ties isn't something that's been reported as a qualification, it's just, you know, a quality that tends to get guys into the picture. Such a guy already has a relationship with ownership and whatever holdovers are in management, is familiar with the system, such as it is, and has enough goodwill stored up with fans to make him marketable and indulgible.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Oct 27 2010 10:46 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

While some Mets people have a soft spot for Wally Backman, it will be a major upset if Alderson, the Harvard and Dartmouth educated former Marine, accedes to the wishes of incumbent Mets people and hires Backman.

Read more: [url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/baseball/mlb/10/26/mets.hire.alderson/#ixzz13ZdYgxgU


Who will be his guy?

Hale?
Mazzilli?
Clint Hurdle?!?


Didn't someone post in the last day or so (not sure which thread) a Heymann tweet that Alderson had submitted a list of managerial candidates and that Backman was high on the list?


Rosenthal. So... y'know... weight that accordingly.

Benjamin Grimm
Oct 27 2010 02:55 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

David Waldstein, NY Times wrote:
His first order of business will be to hire a manager, and Alderson has told people he would not favor hiring Wally Backman, the former Met who manages the franchise’s Class A Brooklyn team. Alderson favors more low-key managers who follow the overall philosophy and strategy set forth by him.


Somebody get Art Howe on the line!

Ceetar
Oct 27 2010 02:57 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

While some Mets people have a soft spot for Wally Backman, it will be a major upset if Alderson, the Harvard and Dartmouth educated former Marine, accedes to the wishes of incumbent Mets people and hires Backman.

Read more: [url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/baseball/mlb/10/26/mets.hire.alderson/#ixzz13ZdYgxgU


Who will be his guy?

Hale?
Mazzilli?
Clint Hurdle?!?



Didn't someone post in the last day or so (not sure which thread) a Heymann tweet that Alderson had submitted a list of managerial candidates and that Backman was high on the list?


I wouldn't be surprised if that list was alphabetical. In which case he'd be pretty high.

Frayed Knot
Oct 28 2010 07:43 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Joel Sherman & Dan Martin over at the NYPost present their list of probable/possible managerial candidates who could receive the Sandy stamp of approval

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/mets/int ... COdbw6U41L

-- listing Clint Hurdle, John Gibbons, Boston bench coach DeMarlo Hale, Bob Melvin, Terry Collins, Don Wakamatsu, and Chip Hale as 'Contenders'


Joe Torre (age, price), plus Wally Backman & Bobby V (too much in-dugout drama) fall under the heading of 'Longshots'

metirish
Oct 28 2010 07:50 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

For a guy who once hired LaRussa I am not buying the no drama angle, of course he also hired Art Howe after LaRussa.

Chip Hale is getting lots of mentions , being manager is much more than running the team on game though right?, the manager runs Spring Training and all that activity too?

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Oct 28 2010 07:52 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

I kinda like the idea of Gibbons. I think Hurdle is a sure possibility, even though he wouldn't be my stylistic first choice I'd figure he has good malleability, Met heritage, experience and a grindstone kinda brand image.

Madden is a big Mazzilli fan, he reveals today.

Frayed Knot
Oct 28 2010 07:57 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

metirish wrote:
For a guy who once hired LaRussa I am not buying the no drama angle, of course he also hired Art Howe after LaRussa.


Yeah, in a separate article under just Martin's name in the same issue he quotes sources warning folks NOT to think that Alderson can be pigeon-holed into just one particular type of manager - especially into thinking that he's just interested in a Yes-man.



Chip Hale is getting lots of mentions , being manager is much more than running the team on game though right?, the manager runs Spring Training and all that activity too?


Oh sure. Plus running the clubhouse and all related 'people managing' skills are at least as important as what goes on between the first and last pitch of the game.

soupcan
Oct 28 2010 08:00 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

October 27, 2010
Alderson Set to Get to Work on Mets

By DAVID WALDSTEIN



SAN FRANCISCO — Sandy Alderson was in the Dominican Republic on Wednesday, attending to his duties for Major League Baseball in its efforts to clean up the player procurement process. But he has already begun working on his next assignment, which may be equally as challenging — resurrecting the Mets.

Alderson will become the Mets’ general manager, and he has begun compiling a list of potential field managers and is looking into re-signing at least one potential free agent, reliever Hisanori Takahashi.

Whatever he decides to do, it will most likely be his decision alone. Alderson is expected to be granted full control over the Mets’ baseball operations, within the framework of a budget set forth by team ownership. Essentially, the Mets will be handing the keys of the franchise to him.

“I think he’ll be able to keep ownership at bay,” said Steve Phillips, a former Mets general manager who acknowledged he was too young and inexperienced when he held the position to have the clout that Alderson will.

“Young guys do need some guidance, but Sandy has the credibility and the maturity to set forth a plan for the entire organization,” Phillips said. “If Sandy says, ‘No, this guy doesn’t fit into our budget,’ or ‘It doesn’t make sense for us,’ everyone will know it’s really coming from him.”

Alderson is expected to begin asking teams for permission to speak to potential managers. There are indications he will at least interview Wally Backman, manager of the Mets’ Class A Brooklyn Cyclones; Chip Hale, the Mets’ third-base coach; and Bob Melvin, a former manager of the Seattle Mariners and the Arizona Diamondbacks.

Of more immediacy is to decide whether to re-sign Takahashi. By rule, the Mets have until Oct. 31 to get a contract worked out or Takahashi will not be able to sign with them until May 15.

Complicating matters, Takahashi recently switched agents after the Mets had begun negotiations with his old agent, Peter Greenberg. But the Mets have reached out to the new agent, Arn Tellem, in hopes of completing a deal before the deadline.

While that may be the most time-sensitive issue for Alderson, the more vital one is the next manager.

Alderson has said in past interviews that he favors low-key managers who follow the overall philosophy and strategy set forth by him as general manager. The reasoning is: why set policy and formulate a tactical plan only to have a maverick, charismatic manager make decisions that do not follow the plan?

Managers like Melvin and perhaps Hale could fit into that framework, but the fiery Backman does not seem to. Alderson has already told others he would not favor hiring Backman, the former Mets infielder, because he has no major league managing experience and would be better served honing his skills in the minors. Ownership is fond of Backman, however, and Alderson is said to be willing to have an open mind.

The last manager Alderson hired was Art Howe in 1996, when he was general manager of the Oakland Athletics. Mets fans may cringe as they recall Howe’s listless campaigns in Flushing in 2003 and 2004, but he was more successful with the Athletics from 1996 to 2002.

Working closely with Alderson, and later Alderson’s protégé Billy Beane, Howe finished with a 600-533 record with the A’s. He won two division titles while taking Oakland to the postseason in his last three years there.

The A’s never won a playoff series under Howe, but he did win more than 100 games two years in a row with a team that had a modest payroll.

It has been suggested that most of the decisions, even in-game tactical decisions, were made in the front office by Beane, and when the A’s decided they wanted to turn to their bench coach Ken Macha as manager, they were only too happy to let Howe go to the Mets.

When Howe got to New York in 2003, replacing Bobby Valentine after a 75-86 season, the Mets did not need a laid-back button-pusher to follow a plan. Howe finished well under .500 both years with the Mets.

Before Howe, the Athletics had Tony La Russa, who is not a managerial automaton by any means. But La Russa was an exceptional talent who has worked well within organizational parameters.

Alderson will be introduced at a news conference at Citi Field on Friday. He hopes to begin interviewing candidates almost immediately.

metirish
Oct 28 2010 08:05 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

“I think he’ll be able to keep ownership at bay,” said Steve Phillips, a former Mets general manager who acknowledged he was too young and inexperienced when he held the position to have the clout that Alderson will.


Oh , fuck of Steve......

Edgy DC
Oct 28 2010 08:12 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Valentine strikes me as an underling who shows intitiative, not a radical who subverts the organization.

I'm not sure, but I think Lunchbucket willed Chip Hale into the picture.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Oct 28 2010 08:31 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard



"Do you like sailing? Feeling the warmth of the setting sun as you breathe in the glorious sea mist? Cracking open a bottle of Spumanti on the deck of a luxurious 15-foot skimmer? Turning away from the problems of the world, and its emphasis on performance and performance enhancement?

Hi. I'm Sandy Alderson. Sail away with me on Alderson Harbor Cruises. Step onboard, and for prices starting at $49.95 for the first half-hour, feel your problems drop away like
buscones from a prospect who tears his ACL.

Be my guest, then, on an Alderson Cruise, would you? It'll warm you up all the way to your Marine core!"

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Oct 28 2010 11:56 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Clint Hurdle was a prized baseball prospect who never made it as a star, in part because he drank too much. This excerpt from the famous SI cover story from 1978 is awesome ([url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/magazine/10/23/hurdle.phenom/index.html) :

"You've got to get it while you can," Hurdle said last week while cruising through Fort Myers in his new Dodge van, a homey vehicle equipped with a refrigerator, sink, CB radio, stereo tape deck, fold-out bed and spittoon. Hurdle keeps a harmonica within easy reach on the padded dashboard, and the refrigerator behind him is never empty.

"When I've had a few drinks," he says, "I want to get Rubin [Hurricane] Carter out of jail. When I came up to Kansas City last season I thought life in the majors would be great, but it was 10 times better than I expected."

In anticipation of this season's pleasures, Hurdle asked the club for a single hotel room on the road, a perk normally reserved for veterans. His request was denied, but he says, "I'll get it next year." Meanwhile, he has purchased two dozen Kansas City Royals T shirts that say ALL THE WAY IN '78.

If Hurdle does not go all the way himself, he will be "really teed off." "I'm a little cocky," he says. "I have a flair for the extraordinary. I know I have a lot to learn but I'd rather do it here."


Inconsistent play and not enough power for a corner OF/1B relegated Hurdle to journeyman status by age 25 when he hooked up with the Mets, who had him on the big-league roster in '83, '85 and '87 (when he was lost to the Cardinals on a Rule 5 pick in '86 Davey Johnson was so upset he reportedly cried). The org in fact liked him so much they got him started on the road to managership shortly after he retired: He managed Met farm clubs for 6 years then was hired by the expansion Rockies for whom he became manager in 2002.

His tenure with the Rockies aside from an extraordinary 21-1 run that vaulted them all the way to the 2007 World Series (where they were swept) could be described as a successful failure. Hurdle is the only manager in major league history to begin his career with five consecutive losing seasons and not get fired for it. In fact he wasn't fired until a horrid start in 2009. He was praised for taking bullets for equally inept general manager and ownership, prone to making bad decisions on tight pursestrings. Hurdle had some issues with stars like Troy Tulowitzski and this article ( [url]http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-clint-hurdle-era/ )suggests Hurdle's most striking tendency as manager "is that he has arguably done the worst job picking batters for the No. 1 slot of any manager in the last half century where the data exist."

Here's the best UMDB memory of him:

Paul
December 26, 2002
One day when Clint was playing for the Mets I asked him to autograph an 8x10 photo for me. He gladly signed the photo and gave it back to me. He signed it Clint "Mo" Hurdle. I asked him what the "Mo" meant. his response was "cause I want mo money". He is a great guy.


My own impression is that he gave pretty good interviews as a guest on Mets Extra. By the way he's the hitting coach for the Rangers today, so take that, Rudy Jamarillo.

metirish
Oct 28 2010 12:00 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

"You've got to get it while you can," Hurdle said last week while cruising through Fort Myers in his new Dodge van, a homey vehicle equipped with a refrigerator, sink, CB radio, stereo tape deck, fold-out bed and spittoon. Hurdle keeps a harmonica within easy reach on the padded dashboard, and the refrigerator behind him is never empty.


How cool is that ride?

great link bucket

Edgy DC
Oct 28 2010 12:14 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote:
Hurdle had some issues with stars like Troy Tulowitzski and this article ( [url]http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-clint-hurdle-era/ )suggests Hurdle's most striking tendency as manager "is that he has arguably done the worst job picking batters for the No. 1 slot of any manager in the last half century where the data exist."

Well, I think batmagadan may be looking elsewhere, then.

Edgy DC
Oct 28 2010 12:17 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Here's Clint and a foxy lady posing in front of his van:

metsguyinmichigan
Oct 28 2010 12:51 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Hurdle's name seems to come up a lot in the last day, but I think part of that is sports writers being pack animals and copying each other.

I do not understand the Mazzilli mentions. Wasn't his tenure in Baltimore both brief and bad?

Edgy DC
Oct 28 2010 12:58 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

It's sometimes harder and sometimes easier, but it's always possilbe to divorce a manager's performance from the record of his team.

But with Lee, if you're of a mind to, you may find it easier. His teams outperformed those of both his immediate predecessor and his immediate successor.

Edgy DC
Oct 28 2010 01:21 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

This is what Mazz was driving back in the day.

Benjamin Grimm
Oct 28 2010 01:23 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Here's Clint and a foxy lady posing in front of his van:



If you gave me ten thousand guesses, I never would have said that was Clint Hurdle.

Edgy DC
Oct 28 2010 01:45 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Hey, you want to take a walk through over a decade of uninspired .429 ball with me? Come on! Sure you do! Here's the Orioles since the turn of the century.

YearManagerWinning %
2000Hargrove.457
2001Hargrove.391
2002Hargrove.414
2003Hargrove.438
2004=#408000]Mazzilli.481
2005Total.457
2005a=#408000]Mazzilli.477
2005b=#8000FF]Perlozzo.419
2006=#8000FF]Perlozzo.432
2007Total.426
2007a=#8000FF]Perlozzo.420
2007b=#BF0000]Trembley.430
2008=#BF0000]Trembley.422
2009=#BF0000]Trembley.395
2010Total.407
2010a=#BF0000]Trembley.278
2010b=#FF00FF]Samuel.333
2010c=#FFBF00]Showalter.596


Mazzilli hardly comes out of that smelling like a rose (Showalter sure does), but he certainly has a defense if you want to try and convict him.

Edgy DC
Oct 28 2010 01:47 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Here's Clint and a foxy lady posing in front of his van:



If you gave me ten thousand guesses, I never would have said that was Clint Hurdle.

You'd have been right 10,000 times, because I was just goofin'.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Oct 28 2010 02:14 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Madden today excused Maz for having to operate in "impossible conditions" in Baltimore.

I'd be concerned mainly because the Mets already fired Mazz once, even though I thought he was OK for having to work with that snot-nosed co-host. Also, my O-lovin friend summed up his career thusly:

The Birds have had their share of crummy managers (and crummy teams) over the past 13 years, but Mazzilli was the only one that I can remember who lost the support of the team. The front office supposedly hired him because he talked a good game, but rumor had it that he did zilch in the way of game preparation and wasn’t much of a communicator.


Gibbons in the meantime was also an 80s Met. Like Hurdle, he's a veteran of managing Mets' minor leaguers, and like Maz, a manager in the AL East. He's a no-nonsense guy who as BJ's skipper had feuds (some with fists!) at different times with Ted Lilly, Frank Thomas, Dave Bush and Shea Hillenbrand. His ticket to the top was having been JP Riccardi's roomie in the minors apparently. He got the good-pitching, poor-hitting Jays to 87 wins and 2nd place once in 3 full seasons as the Jays skipper. He's now the Royals' Bench Coach.

His best UMDB Memory:

Steve P.
September 18, 2001
John will be the next manager here in N.Y. As soon as Bobby V.'s contract expires, which won't be a day too soon, he will be shown the door while John enters to take our club back to the top. He is a no nonsense person who has the unique ability to gain the trust and respect of his players, which causes them to "play for him". He has won championships in Kinsport & St. Lucie, been to the playoffs with Binghamton (tied the franchise record for wins in '98) and with Norfolk. He knows the game and understands that it's the player's game and that he is there to guide them, not control them. He doesn't believe in a lot of the current BS that surrounds the game and can cut through the crap to get to what's really important. He will be our next manager and will give us what Torre gives the Yankees.

metirish
Oct 28 2010 02:19 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Good work bucket -

Steve P. = Steve Phillips?

G-Fafif
Oct 28 2010 02:20 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Steve Springer told Faith and Fear in Flushing in 2007, “If you don't get along with Gibby, trust me you're the idiot. He's the best. He's gold.”

Edgy DC
Oct 28 2010 02:20 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

He will be our next manager and will give us what Torre gives the Yankees.


Fistfuls of steroids.

Benjamin Grimm
Oct 28 2010 02:21 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Gibbons is interesting.

Edgy DC
Oct 28 2010 02:25 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

That post came in the midst of the five-game win streak (and 8 of 9) immediately following the Al Quaeda attack. Two days later, Mike Piazza would hit the homer that saved mankind.

Edgy DC
Oct 28 2010 02:29 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

No fewer than four 80s Mets catchers getting buzzz in recent times as potential Mets manager --- Carter, Gibbons, Hurdle, Stearns.

I say hold out for Mackey Sasser or nothing.

Benjamin Grimm
Oct 28 2010 02:30 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Andy Martino wrote:
John Gibbons will not interview 4 Mets job, Phillies bench coach Pete Mackanin could become a candidate, according to sources. Story up soon

G-Fafif
Oct 28 2010 02:31 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

That post came in the midst of the five-game win streak (and 8 of 9) immediately following the Al Quaeda attack. Two days later, Mike Piazza would hit the homer that saved mankind.


We're very good with priorities. This from The Amazing Mets by Jerry Mitchell:

It was the morning of October 23, 1962. President John F. Kennedy had the night before declared an embargo on Cuba, taking a step which could have meant the beginning of thermonuclear war. There was a sense of crisis all over the United States and all over the world.

In the quiet little village of Cooperstown, N.Y., far from the centers of anxiety but feeling the impact nevertheless, Lee Allen, historian of the Baseball Hall of Fame, sat at his desk. He was thinking that if the Russians picked up the challenge it might very well mean the end of life as we know it. Brooding over the future, Lee attacked his mail. He turned over a postcard from New York's Bronx, and read:

“Dear Sir:

What was the record of the New York Mets this year on Thursdays? I would appreciate a game-by-game total. Thank you.”

The preposterous postcard pulled him right out of his depression. He suddenly realized that, to the Met fan anyway, crises were commonplace. Somehow the card made him feel a lot better.

“My first impulse was to toss it into the wastebasket,” related Allen. “But it occurred to me that the writer must have had a purpose in asking the question, as unusual a one as I ever received. I checked the records and found that the work of the Mets on Thursdays showed no victories and 15 defeats.”

After replying to the fan, Allen forwarded the postcard to the Mets with the observation, “With the world on the verge of ruin, I thought you might be interested in what the Mets' fans are worried about.”

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Oct 28 2010 02:57 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Walter William "Chip" Hale has six years of managerial experience, all with with the D-baggs org, culminating in a Manager of the Year coronation in 2006 with the PCL's Tucson Sidewinders, who won more games than any minor-league team that year. He is credited with helping shepherd Conor Jackson, Carlos Quentin, Stephen Drew and Chris Young to the bigs.

Hale was a reserve infielder and utility player over parts of 7 years with the Twins and Dodgers. His best skill appears to have been walking. He's a U of Arizona alumnus.

He lives in Tucson and has three teenage kids. His wife is Jewish: She apparently got a some rabbi to send Mets yarmulkes to Ike Davis.

Nobody's posted a memory of him on UMDB yet.

metirish
Oct 28 2010 03:00 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Heyman has four inhouse guys getting interviewed, Backman, Hale, Oberkfell and Melvin.

I'm feeling Melvin more and more

Odds up soon

Benjamin Grimm
Oct 28 2010 03:09 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Stop feeling Melvin! It's kind of creepy, and you may frighten him away.

G-Fafif
Oct 28 2010 11:11 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Martino in the Snooze:

According to multiple league sources, former Mets catcher and Toronto Blue Jays manager John Gibbons will not interview for the job, and is expected to remain bench coach for the Kansas City Royals. Chip Hale and Wally Backman remain likely to interview, and there are indications that Phillies bench coach Pete Mackanin could become a candidate.


I used to conflate Mackanin and Mike Cubbage as they were Ranger prospects together in the offseason following (Mackanin traded to Montreal soon after). They even finished their playing careers on the very same day in 1981.

If MacKanin gets the job, he has eight games to outlast Cubbage.

Edgy DC
Oct 28 2010 11:22 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Edgy DC wrote:
I'm not sure, but I think Lunchbucket willed Chip Hale into the picture.

I'm not sure, but I think I willed Terry Collins into the picture.

Valadius
Oct 29 2010 09:24 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

I'm going to try and will Ron Gardenhire into the picture.

G-Fafif
Oct 29 2010 12:43 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Jack Curry says Gibbons is in the running.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Oct 29 2010 12:44 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

G-Fafif wrote:
Jack Curry says Gibbons is in the running.


That's two strikes on DJ Fedora Tracksuit. I'd cultivate a new source were I him.

metirish
Oct 31 2010 08:22 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Doesn't sound like Gibby wants it


@BobKlapJohn Gibbons on Mets' managerial vacancy: "They need someone more high-profile than me."

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Oct 31 2010 08:24 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

metirish wrote:
Doesn't sound like Gibby wants it


@BobKlapJohn Gibbons on Mets' managerial vacancy: "They need someone more high-profile than me."


I think Gibby may have left the Mets org with a little bitterness. Do I actually recall that, or am I making it up?

Fman99
Oct 31 2010 08:43 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Edgy DC wrote:
No fewer than four 80s Mets catchers getting buzzz in recent times as potential Mets manager --- Carter, Gibbons, Hurdle, Stearns.

I say hold out for Mackey Sasser or nothing.


I like the idea of Sasser running the helm, and then every time he goes to the mound to change pitchers he ends up walking wildly towards first or third base.

Gwreck
Nov 01 2010 07:51 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Valadius wrote:
I'm going to try and will Ron Gardenhire into the picture.


You do understand that he, like Jon Daniels, is currently employed by a very successful club, right?

Gwreck
Nov 02 2010 02:29 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

From Adam Rubin's Chat today: (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/newyork/chat/_/id/35310) where he was asked repeatedly about whether Backman would be the next manager:

If I can say it cryptically, I just think the Mets know things that are not circulated and don't feel comfortable.


As I mentioned, sometimes organizations know things that are not widely circulated.


I do not believe Wally Backman will be the next manager.


I don't want to send everyone into a tizzy, but you hear things that you cannot report, but which point you to a certain conclusion. That's about as best as I can say it now. And I strongly believe Wally Backman will not be the next manager.

TransMonk
Nov 02 2010 02:31 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

I'm OK with that.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Nov 02 2010 02:32 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Gwreck wrote:
From Adam Rubin's Chat today: (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/newyork/chat/_/id/35310) where he was asked repeatedly about whether Backman would be the next manager:

If I can say it cryptically, I just think the Mets know things that are not circulated and don't feel comfortable.


As I mentioned, sometimes organizations know things that are not widely circulated.


I do not believe Wally Backman will be the next manager.


I don't want to send everyone into a tizzy, but you hear things that you cannot report, but which point you to a certain conclusion. That's about as best as I can say it now. And I strongly believe Wally Backman will not be the next manager.


Wow?

There is more to the Wally Backman stuff is what he's saying?

Edgy DC
Nov 02 2010 02:36 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

He's an alien.

He's an alien homosexual klansman.

HahnSolo
Nov 02 2010 02:38 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Sounds like it, which leads you to believe something happened in the time since he was hired to manage Brooklyn. I imagine if they knew anything then, they would not have hired him in the first place.

(this is responding to Bucket, not Edgy)

metirish
Nov 02 2010 02:39 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Geez Adam , no 60 Minutes for you.

Ceetar
Nov 02 2010 02:39 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

So he's heard rumors, which lead him to certain conclusions, nothing that anyone else knows and it's all circumstantial, and this either happened recently or is new information or is someone big enough to keep him out of Flushing but not out of Brooklyn?

Edgy DC
Nov 03 2010 08:31 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

The Daily News names the internal candidates:

A separate organizational source said that Wally Backman and third base coach Chip Hale will in fact be two of the internal interviewees, as expected, and could travel to New York as soon as Thursday or Friday. Other strong possibilities include scout and former Seattle and Arizona manager Bob Melvin, minor league field coordinator Terry Collins, Double-A Binghamton manager Tim Teufel (!!) and Triple-A manager Ken Oberkfell.


The headline and the source present Backman and Hale as the only two definite candidates. I salute Hale for making a name for himself in a short time and in an environment that is going to get most of his colleagues tossed, but if I'm Oberkfell, I'm a little peeved to see Backman ahead of myself in line.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 03 2010 08:21 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Dave Jauss, Bob Melvin to talk to Mets

By Adam Rubin
ESPNNewYork.com

The New York Mets will begin interviewing for their vacant managerial position Thursday when in-house candidates Bob Melvin and Dave Jauss open the process, the team announced.

Melvin, 49, managed the Seattle Mariners from 2003 to 2004 and the Arizona Diamondbacks from 2005 to 2009, posting a combined 493-508 record. He served as a scout for the Mets this past season, monitoring the AL East and West divisions.

Melvin spends his offseasons living in Manhattan, where his daughter Alexi studied acting at the Lee Strasberg Theater and Film Institute in Union Square.

"We have summers in Arizona and winters in New York," Melvin said in March before a Mets spring training game against the Atlanta Braves, as he began his tenure as a Mets scout. "You'd think it would be the other way around in a perfect world, but that's the way we've done it."

Jauss, 53, spent last season as Jerry Manuel's bench coach with the Mets. He previously served in the same capacity for two seasons apiece with the Baltimore Orioles and Los Angeles Dodgers. He managed Licey in the Dominican Republic last winter.

Jauss' managerial experience includes two seasons in the minor leagues with the Montreal Expos organization, in 1992 with Class A West Palm Beach and in '94 with Double-A Harrisburg.

Mets GM Sandy Alderson said Tuesday that the Mets would begin conducting interviews with internal candidates this week, while interviews with candidates not currently affiliated with the organization would begin next week. Other internal candidates should include third-base coach Chip Hale and Class A Brooklyn manager Wally Backman.

Edgy DC
Nov 03 2010 08:42 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Nov 03 2010 08:51 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Mark Simon of ESPN notes the 1994 Harrisburg Senators outperformed their pythags by 10 games.

metirish
Nov 04 2010 02:18 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Interesting

Alderson will interview Backman in San Diego Saturday according to my internet sources , Sandy lives there?

Frayed Knot
Nov 04 2010 02:51 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

metirish wrote:
Alderson will interview Backman in San Diego Saturday according to my internet sources , Sandy lives there?


Yes he does.
Lives in SD, teaches in SF, and takes a job in NYC.

TheOldMole
Nov 04 2010 03:33 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Why is Oberkfell being given such short shrift?

metirish
Nov 04 2010 04:12 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

TheOldMole wrote:
Why is Oberkfell being given such short shrift?



Is he?, he is getting interviewed.

Clint Hurdle interviews with the Pirates today.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 05 2010 04:58 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Sandy Alderson wrote:
Dear Mets Fans:

As you may have heard, today we interviewed two candidates to become the next Manager of the Mets.

The process got off to a good start with Bob Melvin and Dave Jauss here for interviews. I'll be meeting with Wally Backman, Terry Collins and Chip Hale this weekend in California.

We plan to speak with more candidates next week and hope to announce our new Manager as soon as possible.

We will be back to you again with more information soon. Thanks for your ongoing support.

Sincerely,

Sandy Alderson
General Manager

Edgy DC
Nov 05 2010 06:19 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

That's full of awkward phrasing and the capital M in "Manager" is just too much. That settles it. I deserve a big-time job ghost-writing these communiques.

The most egregious mis-step is using the past tense with "The process got off to a good start with Bob Melvin and Dave Jauss here for interviews." The unintionally implied subtext that leaves me with is "And then things quickly got out of control when we tried to talk to Tim Teufel. Tried to talk... What a tremendous asshole that guy is."

G-Fafif
Nov 05 2010 07:32 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

It is my sincere hope that once Sandy settles down from his bicoastal teaching and travels, he goes through his in-box, notices they're sending out these ludicrous updates over his signature and puts an end to it.

This was going on during the GM search, so one assumes this is Jeff's (or Jeff's consultant's) brilliant idea. Or, perhaps, they anticipated Sandy would like this sort of communication and implemented it to impress him ahead of time.

Nothing ever seems what it's supposed to with this organization.

themetfairy
Nov 05 2010 07:40 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

At least when these inane communiques have Sandy's alleged signature I don't have a visceral reaction of disgust. I was tempted to write to Jeffy and tell him to leave me alone already when he was signing off on these with his own name.

metirish
Nov 05 2010 12:41 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

NY Post reports that Hurdle is officially on Mets radar and Aldesron will be contacting him to set up an. Interview.

MFS62
Nov 05 2010 08:32 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

metirish wrote:
Clint Hurdle interviews with the Pirates today.

Speaking of Pirate managers, I was wondering today if the Mets might interview ex-buc manager Lloyd McClendon.
I liked the way he managed, considering what he was given to work with, and has a Mets pedigree. (Mets draft pick)

Later

metirish
Nov 05 2010 08:59 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

This whole Mets pedigree is getting silly, from Riciardi's playing in the system thirty years ago to McClendon being a draft pick, it's daft. can he manage?, my memories of him are that he was very laid back and IIRC the word was he wasn't that good with the kids.

Edgy DC
Nov 05 2010 09:21 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

I don't think anybody is implying that having a background in the organization trumps a poor performance at the big-league level.

batmagadanleadoff
Nov 05 2010 11:36 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 06 2010 10:06 AM

metirish wrote:
This whole Mets pedigree is getting silly, from Riciardi's playing in the system thirty years ago to McClendon being a draft pick, it's daft. can he manage?, my memories of him are that he was very laid back and IIRC the word was he wasn't that good with the kids.


I hear you, Irish. I can't figure out why so may fans are going gaga over the prospects of Backman as the next Mets manager. If they possess keen insights into Backman's managerial skills, then fine --- but to want Wally just because he played for Davey Johnson's Mets 25 years ago makes no sense to me. Bud Harrelson had the best Mets pedigree of any incoming Mets manager. And he was an unqualified disaster.

Edgy DC
Nov 06 2010 12:25 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

I'll qualify that. He had a winning record, one of only five Mets managers to boast such, even out-percenting Gil Hodges.

His first year, his team had a better record than the previous year. His second year, his squad had a better record than the following year.

batmagadanleadoff
Nov 06 2010 01:53 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Bud was the first manager to give Dave Magadan a legitimate shot at playing every day. Mags' combined OBP under Harrelson was over .400. Still, I'm going with disaster. Plus, Buddy didn't bat Magadan leadoff. He should've.

Frayed Knot
Nov 06 2010 06:28 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 07 2010 03:05 PM

batmagadanleadoff wrote:
I still can't figure out why so may fans are going gaga over the possibility that Backman might be the Mets next manager.


Because he's "fiery" and "gritty" - and everyone knows that having those traits are the two most important.
Ollie wouldn't have refused his minor league assignment if Wally were managing; Beltran would have returned earlier from his injuries under a Wally regime; Wright's Ks will drop again because laid-back types like Art/Willie/Jerry kept forgetting to tell him to concentrate; all those Brooklyn players who played for him are now fundamentally sound and therefore will be ML stars within a few years; etc. Plus he learned from Davey so he "knows how to win".

Those are all proven facts so there's no point in rebuttal here.

bmfc1
Nov 06 2010 08:47 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Word today is that Terry Collins is the leading candidate. Why? Look at his track record:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/manag ... te99.shtml

He's managed in Japan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Collins

If that's a qualification, I can think of somebody else who fits, and he's managed a team to a pennant.

metirish
Nov 06 2010 09:54 AM
Yee: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Yeah, Heymand and Rubin have him as the" leading candidate" today, they change their minds daily though.

Frayed Knot
Nov 06 2010 10:15 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 07 2010 03:04 PM

Collins is/was another get with a "fiery" rep. He got his first job in Houston, in part, as an antidote to the laid-back guy he replaced ... Art Howe!
IIRC, some Houston fans told me the players - vets particularly - got sick of him over time and he was eventually replaced by the lower-key Larry Dierker.


You get the opinion sometimes that the designated "leading" candidate is simply whichever guy the writers talked to or about most recently.

metirish
Nov 07 2010 02:43 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Newsday on Collins

With his Dodgers background, a managing stint in Japan and high motor, Collins, 61, is similar to Bobby Valentine. It's a comparison he's admitted to hearing many times. In spring training, Collins was praised by ownership for his boundless energy and enthusiasm as he constantly instructed players. With Alderson seeking a candidate with major-league managing experience, Collins also has that - six years total with the Astros (1994-96) and Angels (1997-99).


A hiring of DePodesta is seen as a boost for Collins the article says

Frayed Knot
Nov 07 2010 02:49 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

From Bill Madden's column today:

So what happened with Bobby Valentine in Milwaukee? Turns out Bobby V never was the frontrunner to get the Brewers managing job ... and never got an offer. According to Brewer sources, Milwaukee owner Mark Attanasio, who had at first wanted an experienced "name" manager, was talked out of Valentine by people outside the organization

- Peeps from other orgs? ... from MLB? ... from the Obama administration?

It is uncertain anyway if Attanasio would have been willing to meet Valentine's salary demands, but in the meantime Roenicke apparently wowed the owner in his interview.

metirish
Nov 07 2010 03:03 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

I found that quite amazing , it's like Valentine still has a shitty rep around the game....talked out of it? WTF is that?

Edgy DC
Nov 07 2010 03:20 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

They're going to need every dime to keep a semblance of that slugger's row together, so a high-profile manager may not be a good investment.

The wishfully thinking foolish fanboi angle: the person outside the organization was former Brewer owner Bud Selig on behalf of his beloved former lieutenant Sandy Alderson.

metirish
Nov 07 2010 03:32 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

The Selig angle crossed my mind but not the Alderson one, I like it.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Nov 07 2010 08:09 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Boston bench coach DeMarlo Hale to interview for Mets job.

Former Minor Lg MOY, and might possibly be Chip Hale's brother. Or sister?

Gwreck
Nov 08 2010 03:10 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Sandy A. sent me some more email:

On Saturday, I had good meetings in California with Wally Backman, Terry Collins, and Chip Hale to discuss the Mets Manager position. I am scheduled to interview DeMarlo Hale tomorrow at Citi Field and on Wednesday meet with Clint Hurdle and Don Wakamatsu.

MFS62
Nov 08 2010 09:33 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Too late.
Don is now a Jay.
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/1011 ... _coaches_2

Later

metirish
Nov 09 2010 06:04 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Wakamatsu being named bench coach in Toronto does not preclude him from speaking with the Mets. DW will interview tomorrow.

Source- tracksuit

Frayed Knot
Nov 09 2010 06:44 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

MFS62 wrote:
Too late.
Don is now a Jay.


Which is the opposite of what would happen if Mr. Payton took a job with the University of San Francisco - because then you could say that Jay is now a Don.

Farmer Ted
Nov 09 2010 07:39 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

I'm still stuck on Billy Beane and his Moneyball theory about stolen bases, essentially the SB is too risky and should never be attempted. If Sandy is also an advocate of this style, it doesn't bode well for Wally who would likely implore an aggressive style on the basepaths.

HahnSolo
Nov 09 2010 07:42 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Farmer Ted wrote:
I'm still stuck on Billy Beane and his Moneyball theory about stolen bases, essentially the SB is too risky and should never be attempted. If Sandy is also an advocate of this style, it doesn't bode well for Wally who would likely implore an aggressive style on the basepaths.


Sandy's best Oakland teams had Ricky Henderson, so he can't totally be against the SB.

Edgy DC
Nov 09 2010 07:43 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

These things ain't set in stone as all that. Certainly not immutable laws.

Oakville was third in the American League in swipes this season.

metsmarathon
Nov 09 2010 07:53 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Farmer Ted wrote:
I'm still stuck on Billy Beane and his Moneyball theory about stolen bases, essentially the SB is too risky and should never be attempted. If Sandy is also an advocate of this style, it doesn't bode well for Wally who would likely implore an aggressive style on the basepaths.


is billy beane still with the a's?

because this past year, rajai davis had 50 steals in 61 tries, coco crisp had 32 steals in 35 tries, and cliff pennington had 29 steals in 34 tries. overall, they were 3rd in the al with 156 steals in 194 attempts, good for a 80.4% success rate.

the stolen base is generally considered to be counterproductive below a 75% success rate or so. i believe the moneyball teams eschewed the stolen base because at the time, getting people on base and slugging three run homers was the more cost-effective route to success in that obp was undervalued relative to other factors. plus, scouts love fast, toolsy guys, and not fat slow guys who get on base. the moneyball teams didn't steal bases because they weren't built to, not because billy bean had a fundamental opposition to the stolen base, i believe.

MFS62
Nov 09 2010 07:58 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 09 2010 08:21 AM

Frayed Knot wrote:
MFS62 wrote:
Too late.
Don is now a Jay.


Which is the opposite of what would happen if Mr. Payton took a job with the University of San Francisco - because then you could say that Jay is now a Don.

I'm impressed. LOL!

As for managerial strategy. Sometimes you have to do what it takes to win. The other night, the 1955 World Series was on tv (Brooklyn beating the MFYs). In the seventh game, Brooklyn manager Walter Alston had power hitter Duke Snider sacrifice bunt what was to become the second run in a 2-0 victory into scoring position.
But there is a big difference between doing the unexpected that turns out OK and doing something out of rote because it is someone's "style" of managing.

Later

Edgy DC
Nov 09 2010 08:11 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Booklyn won in 1956? Don Larsen might be surpised.

MFS62
Nov 09 2010 08:20 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Typo fixed.
Thanks, Later

Edgy DC
Nov 09 2010 08:34 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

That's OK, I gave St. Louis the 1985 championship.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Nov 09 2010 08:34 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Wakamatsu will still interview with the Mets.

Ceetar
Nov 09 2010 08:40 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

So far Sandy's hired a Paul, and a John Paul. any managerial candidates named Paul?

Frayed Knot
Nov 09 2010 08:43 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Ceetar wrote:
So far Sandy's hired a Paul, and a John Paul. any managerial candidates named Paul?


Or maybe Benedict?

Valadius
Nov 09 2010 09:26 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

There's always Bruce.

batmagadanleadoff
Nov 09 2010 09:32 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Ceetar wrote:
So far Sandy's hired a Paul, and a John Paul. any managerial candidates named Paul?


A John and a Paul? Who's next?
.

.
.
.
.
.

.
.
.
.
.

Edgy DC
Nov 09 2010 09:33 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Valadius wrote:
There's always Bruce.

Benny Distefano is already in the system.

metirish
Nov 10 2010 05:36 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Backman called back for second interview says Heyman, his take, Alderson appeasing fans and the Wilpon's.


Who are these fans and how many are there?, nothing more than a media myth.

Edgy DC
Nov 10 2010 05:55 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

All that aside, he's in the system, he's been successful, he's made it as high as the majors (for a few days), won awards in the minors, and is clear that he has big-league hopes. I have no problem with him getting an interview. They are going to be talking to him anyway as they put together the minor-league staff. Might as well present themselves as open to his long-term ambitions.

HahnSolo
Nov 10 2010 06:53 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

metirish wrote:
Backman called back for second interview says Heyman, his take, Alderson appeasing fans and the Wilpon's.


Who are these fans and how many are there?, nothing more than a media myth.


I don't know. I think you appease the fans and owner by bringing him in once. Wally must have done something to have left an impression.

TransMonk
Nov 10 2010 08:21 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

So with second interviews being scheduled and no mention of Valentine being contacted at all, the dream seems to be dying.

I have to say that none of the guys being given second interviews really impress me.

Edgy DC
Nov 10 2010 09:24 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

This makes an impression: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOZxT9MHAJU

Speakers down, people.

HahnSolo
Nov 10 2010 09:29 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Wonder if he and Doc got that beer.

G-Fafif
Nov 10 2010 09:39 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Heyman just on FAN saying he'd be "stunned" if it's not one of Hurdle, Collins, Melvin or Wakamatsu, though it sounded more like he was stunned he was asked the question and was kind of vamping on the answer because as an insider, he couldn't simply say, "Fellas, I really don't know."

Though narrowing it down to four kind of says that.

TransMonk
Nov 10 2010 09:45 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Backman, Collins and Melvin are all very uninspiring to me...even with the tirades one of them produces.

I'm beginning to root for Hurdle and the Hales.

**Cool band name alert**

HahnSolo
Nov 10 2010 09:49 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

The one name that I really find odd as a finalist is Wakamatsu. His tenure in Seattle (one successful year followed by a terrible year) was not overwhelming.

Edgy DC
Nov 10 2010 10:10 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

The most amazing thing about that tirade is that Wally's South Georgia Peanuts were playing Andersonville. How does one walk around with "Andersonville" on his jersey and feel anything but disgust and depresson?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Nov 10 2010 10:59 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Edgy DC wrote:
The most amazing thing about that tirade is that Wally's South Georgia Peanuts were playing Andersonville. How does one walk around with "Andersonville" on his jersey and feel anything but disgust and depresson?


Because it beats working as a historical reenactor down there?

I have to admit... a few of those field redecorations would help pass the time during a lost season.

metirish
Nov 10 2010 11:10 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Not all that desirable at all , the arguing with the ump was fine but when he first went back to the dugout and started throwing the balls and bats he started calling the ump a piece of shit and things like that , not good. He came across as a complete tool and an embarrassment .

BTW , who was the coach with him, # 10?

dgwphotography
Nov 10 2010 11:26 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Every time I watch that video, I come away with the same observation. It wasn't a tirade - it was calculated. Why else would he tell the catcher to get out of the way?

Valadius
Nov 10 2010 11:50 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

I'm loving that video. I'm going to have to go home and watch the rest of that series.

Edgy DC
Nov 10 2010 12:10 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

dgwphotography wrote:
Every time I watch that video, I come away with the same observation. It wasn't a tirade - it was calculated. Why else would he tell the catcher to get out of the way?

No doubt he was aware of what he was doing there and trying to make some sort of statement. (Maybe to make the documentary more interesting?) Does that make it worse or better, in your opinion?

Because the bullying, belittling, big-leaguing, and scatalogically abusing the ump --- and retreating to "What did I say? I didn't say anything!" --- is pretty embarassing. And he gets physical too.

Standing up for your players has merit, but he's way out there and he's only encouraging them in the notion that his is acceptable behavior in baseball.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 13 2010 01:16 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Adam Rubin and David Lennon are both reporting that Jose Oquendo will be interviewed on Monday.

metirish
Nov 13 2010 01:42 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
Adam Rubin and David Lennon are both reporting that Jose Oquendo will be interviewed on Monday.



Yep , the last of the first round group , second round could start in Orlando(GM meetings?)

Rubin also reports that it looks more and more like Collins

bmfc1
Nov 14 2010 10:33 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Hurdle signs with Pittsburgh. But we can still get the boring guy or guy that's lost the clubhouse twice.

metirish
Nov 14 2010 12:14 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

You know, I'm not going to hold something against Collins that happened over ten years ago , it looks like Collins or Melvin.....I can be happy with either.

Edgy DC
Nov 14 2010 12:24 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Thing is that his players rebelled in Anaheim also. You don't have to blame him for that, but it's there.

MFS62
Nov 14 2010 12:40 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

bmfc1 wrote:
Hurdle signs with Pittsburgh. But we can still get the boring guy or guy that's lost the clubhouse twice.

I guess that was one hurdle that Alderson couldn't overcome.
OH, STOP it!
If I didn't say that, one of you would have.

Later

Ashie62
Nov 14 2010 03:27 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

I'm praying for Melvin over Collins.

dgwphotography
Nov 14 2010 03:40 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Ashie62 wrote:
I'm praying for Melvin over Collins.


Of the ones that are left - I'm hoping for Oquendo over both...

Edgy DC
Nov 14 2010 03:51 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

We're in the homestretch. Wouldn't be surprised to hear an announcement tomorrow.

Rockin' Doc
Nov 14 2010 07:26 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

The best thing I can about the Mets managerial candidates, Melvin and Collins, is that they're not Jerry Manuel. I'm rather underwhelmed by both of them, but I probably would prefer Melvin. But choosing between the two is like choosing Arsenic or strychnine.

bmfc1
Nov 14 2010 07:35 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

I'm w/Rockin' Doc. I've said "as long as it's not Jerry" but the more I read about Collins, the less I like him and I haven't read anything about Melvin to make me want him to get the job.

Edgy DC
Nov 15 2010 09:49 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

A few tweets from Bob Klapish are stating outright that DePodesta has steered the search away from inexperience (Backman) toward experience (Collins).

HahnSolo
Nov 15 2010 10:20 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

metirish wrote:
You know, I'm not going to hold something against Collins that happened over ten years ago , it looks like Collins or Melvin.....I can be happy with either.


This shouldn't be construed as an endorsement of Backman, however, aren't Wally's actions from a long time ago being held against him?*

(*I do realize losing a clubhouse and beating up a wife are two entirely different situations)


Edgy DC wrote:
A few tweets from Bob Klapish are stating outright that DePodesta has steered the search away from inexperience (Backman) toward experience (Collins).


Interesting, coming from a guy who was given the reins of a franchise at age 31 without prior GM experience.

metirish
Nov 15 2010 10:24 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

HahnSolo wrote:
metirish wrote:
You know, I'm not going to hold something against Collins that happened over ten years ago , it looks like Collins or Melvin.....I can be happy with either.


This shouldn't be construed as an endorsement of Backman, however, aren't Wally's actions from a long time ago being held against him?*

(*I do realize losing a clubhouse and beating up a wife are two entirely different situations)


Edgy DC wrote:
A few tweets from Bob Klapish are stating outright that DePodesta has steered the search away from inexperience (Backman) toward experience (Collins).


Interesting, coming from a guy who was given the reins of a franchise at age 31 without prior GM experience.



I think the fact that Backman is getting interviewed shows that his past actions are not being held against him, his lack of experienced seems to be though.

Edgy DC
Nov 15 2010 11:18 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

I certainly not privy to all in Wally's background, but I believe there's scant evidence that he ever beat up his wife.

HahnSolo
Nov 15 2010 11:21 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Edgy DC wrote:
I certainly not privy to all in Wally's background, but I believe there's scant evidence that he ever beat up his wife.


You're right. I was thinking of the domestic incident

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Nov 15 2010 11:28 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

A few tweets from Bob Klapish are stating outright that DePodesta has steered the search away from inexperience (Backman) toward experience (Collins).


Interesting, coming from a guy who was given the reins of a franchise at age 31 without prior GM experience.


Yes, but working as an advance scout/mini-GM under Hart for three years and lieutenant to Mr. Beane for five qualify as related experience... at least a bit more than, say, one single-A job in the last 7-8 years. It ain't THAT neat an irony.

This has to be it, and not the "wife-beating" incident from years ago (PiF: NOT actually a wife-beating incident).

Vic Sage
Nov 15 2010 11:57 AM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

While i'd be happy to have Bobby V back, cuz he's done it here before, clearly that's not going to happen. So, i'd be just as happy with a low cost / low profile "middle manager" type who has a track record of staying the hell out of the way (i.e., doesn't give away outs) and evinces a willingness to bring the hammer down on underperforming players (ie., make them accountable with playing time), both as a surrogate for my frustration and as motivation to the rest of the roster.

With that in mind, these are the things that mean absolutely nothing to me in searching for the next Mets manager:
1) genius-osity;
2) ability to "handle NY";
3) philosophy (beyond doing what Sandy tells him - ie., not giving away outs);
4) playing pedigree;
5) Met-liness;
6) military service;
7) "grit";
8) willingness to yell (at umps, media, players, owners, fans); or
9) "star" quality

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Nov 15 2010 12:01 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

Vic Sage wrote:
3) philosophy (beyond doing what Sandy tells him - ie., not giving away outs)


"Open-mindedness about philosophy," though, I'll put a little higher on the priority list than "of no importance."

Edgy DC
Nov 15 2010 12:38 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

One thing about philosophy is that it doesn't have to be brilliant to be useful. As long as it's more or less valid and not demonstrably strategically counterproductive (i.e. batting low-OBP guys leadoff) it can helpful in serving to organize the work.

And yeah, openmindedness might allow you to make adjusments when a philosophy is demonstrated to be strategically counterproductive.

Ashie62
Nov 15 2010 01:22 PM
Re: New Skipper Candidate Scorecard

bmfc1 wrote:
I'm w/Rockin' Doc. I've said "as long as it's not Jerry" but the more I read about Collins, the less I like him and I haven't read anything about Melvin to make me want him to get the job.


Ashie feels the same way.