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Josh Thole, 2K11?

Opening Day, first string-type catcher

15 votes

#1 guy until we find a better one

10 votes

Maybe a platoon role w/ some other bro

2 votes

#2 catcher behind some other bro

1 votes

Other?

0 votes

A Boy Named Seo Sep 28 2010 04:33 PM

What do you feel about Josh Thole as of now, looking to next season?

Frayed Knot Sep 28 2010 05:04 PM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

I went with option B - #1 until (or unless) we find a better one. I'm not totally sold on him being an everyday guy but I am getting there quickly. His defense, in particular, has taken giant leaps since we first saw him in mid-2009 and the more he hits ML pitching the more he shows us that his BA & OBA skills aren't a fluke.

metirish Sep 28 2010 05:36 PM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

It's a good question, Panama must have inspired you. I tend to agee with FK, plus I don't see the Mets going out with purpose to get a better catcher. All this could change of course if there is a new GM.

Ceetar Sep 28 2010 05:48 PM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

metirish wrote: It's a good question, Panama must have inspired you. I tend to agee with FK, plus I don't see the Mets going out with purpose to get a better catcher. All this could change of course if there is a new GM. I went with 1. I'm not sure there's a ton of quality catchers out there worth persuing, and i like what I've seen from thole. A little power lacking, but there are cures for that in other roster spots

John Cougar Lunchbucket Sep 28 2010 06:22 PM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

He's a player. I felt pretty good about Muffy heading into 09 though.

smg58 Sep 28 2010 06:40 PM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

He has more minor league seasoning (at least at high levels) than Murphy did, and a bit more major league time than Murph did after 2008, so I'm confident we'll get what we're seeing so far. I see him starting the season in a platoon role -- lefthanded catchers generally have to hit like Brian McCann to get starts against lefties. His glove is fine and he handles the pitchers. The power is nonexistent, which would be a much bigger issue if he weren't a catcher. He's still an asset if he can keep his OBP north of .350.

Frayed Knot Sep 28 2010 07:24 PM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

He (Thole) is also at a position where offensive matters a whole lot less than it did with Muffy either at 1B or in LF. If he merely matches what he's been doing over the last (his first) 250 or so ABs in the majors then he's if not a true #1 then at least a 1A.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Sep 28 2010 07:54 PM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

I'm not comparing Thole and Muffy; just my CAHNfidence in Thole and Muffy.

Frayed Knot Sep 28 2010 08:01 PM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

And all I'm saying is that Thole has a greater margin for error simply based on the position. My CAHNfindence in Murph was always tempered by the level of offense needed for his position just to be middle of the pack.

RealityChuck Sep 29 2010 07:51 AM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

There are very few really good catchers today, and even fewer that could be available. Thole should be the starter next year and for years to come. As for power, that's just trying to put the square pegs of sabremetrics into the round holes of reality. No position is "supposed" to be a power position -- some just tend that way. But the key is that you get the power from somewhere in the lineup, not from a particular position.

G-Fafif Sep 29 2010 07:53 AM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

I hear Rod Barajas will be available.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Sep 29 2010 08:33 AM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

He's got pretty remarkable on-base and bat skills at this point in his career (with a 12% walk rate and nice 25%-ish line-drive numbers), and the power's leveled out at a .425 clip or so at each of the last three minor-league levels-- he'll be at least passable offensively. This is EXACTLY the sort of player we've needed more of in and around the Wrights, Beltrans and Bays. Having already grown in leaps and bounds, his defense this year-- over 400-plus innings and including a whole mess of knuckler-and-junk-minding-- has been damn close to stellar. (The throwing accuracy-- and sneaky power, too-- has been a particular revelation.)

Fman99 Sep 29 2010 08:59 AM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

I'm bullish on Thole. It shouldn't fall on his shoulders to compensate for the saddest hitting batch of 2Bs this side of Keokuk. He hits line drives, he plays defense, he gets on base. If Jason Kendall can squeeze a 15 year career with 80% of Thole's skill set how is Thole not worthy of a starting shot in 2011?

Edgy DC Sep 29 2010 09:06 AM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

Kendall had wheels the first five years of his career. The fastest catcher of his genereation.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 29 2010 10:52 AM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

I'd bat Thole leadoff. Reyes has about as much business batting leadoff as Mookie Wilson did. Perhaps the next Mets manager will be strong enough to unpamper our current shortstop. This assumes though, that the next Mets manager will be as smart as I am, and recognizes that Thole belongs in the first place in the first place.

bmfc1 Sep 29 2010 11:17 AM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

Nothing against Thole, but nothing really in his favor as I don't think that he does anything exceptionally well. If he hit .300 or hit 15 homers or had great "speed for a catcher" or a cannon for an arm, OK. He does all these things sufficiently but none very well. (Of course, he's young and may still do so.) Having said that, he's better than anything else they have or are likely to have so I'd get another right handed bat (not Blanco who is 14 for his last 84) to back him up.

Vic Sage Sep 29 2010 12:02 PM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

I don't get Chuck's pointless backhand at SABRmetrics. If anything, a sabrmetric analysis, which favors OB% as the KEY number in a player's production, probably OVERvalues Thole, as opposed to the standard kind of subjective "skills" analysis more commonly associated with the numerically challenged old guard scouting types who look at JT and say: "no speed, no power, no cannon. forget him."

Lefty Specialist Sep 29 2010 12:29 PM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

If I recall, one of the knocks on Thole in the minors was that he wasn't a particularly good defensive catcher (I'm assuming he was switched from some other position as many catchers are). Now, while he's no Gold Glover, he's more than held his own defensively (passed ball stats should have an asterisk because of Dickey). I think there's room to grow here. We'll always be a little spoiled by the memory of Piazza, but that's a once in a blue moon type of catcher. If Thole can hit well enough to hold down the #7 spot in the order, hit the occasional dinger and drive in his share of runs, throw out some runners and manage a pitching staff, he'll be acceptable. I like his attitude, and with a little more work I think he can be a good one. He'll never be Piazza, but he won't be Brian Schneider either. I see him as that 'complementary' player that you need on a real team.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Sep 29 2010 12:49 PM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

bmfc1 wrote: Nothing against [player], but nothing really in his favor as I don't think that he does anything exceptionally well. Decent-to-good in most of the game's primary facets? In my day, we used to call that "well-rounded." (At third base, we call that "David Wright.")

Edgy DC Sep 29 2010 01:08 PM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

It's also one of those things that keeps a guy usefully in the lineup until they get the most out of one of their skills and excel in an area. Bob Boone wasn't defensive wiz until his thirties. He just did a lot of things decent to well. There's also a world of Wiggntons and Hubie Brooks out there who play well enough in all facets to fill a spot until one of those facets really starts to shine. These guys are good to have, often better than guys with some obvious extreme skills but are a burden in the lineup until their game fully comes around --- Reyes, Hundley, Tejada.

Valadius Sep 29 2010 06:32 PM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

Any catcher that bats .300 gets my vote of confidence.

Vic Sage Sep 30 2010 08:46 AM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

Valadius wrote: Any catcher that bats .300 gets my vote of confidence. .300 BA is nice, but ... 1) he hasn't hit .300 over a full season yet, 2) not all .300 BAs are created equal, 3) if a C hits an empty .300 (low slg / low oba), he also needs a good glove/arm to be a valuable player, and 4) he still needs to be used appropriately in a lineup to maximize offensive value

Vic Sage Sep 30 2010 08:48 AM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

Lefty Specialist wrote: If I recall, one of the knocks on Thole in the minors was that he wasn't a particularly good defensive catcher (I'm assuming he was switched from some other position as many catchers are). Now, while he's no Gold Glover, he's more than held his own defensively (passed ball stats should have an asterisk because of Dickey). I think there's room to grow here. We'll always be a little spoiled by the memory of Piazza, but that's a once in a blue moon type of catcher. If Thole can hit well enough to hold down the #7 spot in the order, hit the occasional dinger and drive in his share of runs, throw out some runners and manage a pitching staff, he'll be acceptable. I like his attitude, and with a little more work I think he can be a good one. He'll never be Piazza, but he won't be Brian Schneider either. I see him as that 'complementary' player that you need on a real team. This. Although, if he doesn't develop power but continues to have a solid OB%/low K rate, I'd rather he hit 2nd than 7th.

Ceetar Sep 30 2010 08:53 AM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

Vic Sage wrote: Lefty Specialist wrote: If I recall, one of the knocks on Thole in the minors was that he wasn't a particularly good defensive catcher (I'm assuming he was switched from some other position as many catchers are). Now, while he's no Gold Glover, he's more than held his own defensively (passed ball stats should have an asterisk because of Dickey). I think there's room to grow here. We'll always be a little spoiled by the memory of Piazza, but that's a once in a blue moon type of catcher. If Thole can hit well enough to hold down the #7 spot in the order, hit the occasional dinger and drive in his share of runs, throw out some runners and manage a pitching staff, he'll be acceptable. I like his attitude, and with a little more work I think he can be a good one. He'll never be Piazza, but he won't be Brian Schneider either. I see him as that 'complementary' player that you need on a real team. This. Although, if he doesn't develop power but continues to have a solid OB%/low K rate, I'd rather he hit 2nd than 7th. Hopefully the new manager is capable of filling out a lineup properly with thoughts like that in mind.

MFS62 Sep 30 2010 09:34 AM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

Vic Sage wrote: I'd rather he hit 2nd than 7th. So do I. Also- he has a 46% CS rate. Yes, its a small sample size, but I'm guessing it is one of the best ratios in the majors. And when you consider he is catching a knuckleball pitcher every fifth day, that is really impressive. Later

Ashie62 Sep 30 2010 09:39 AM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

Opening day catcher on the cheap. One less piece of the puzzle to fill.

Edgy DC Oct 01 2010 07:47 PM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

I guess I'm too emotionally compromised to vote right now, but...

Willets Point Oct 01 2010 07:49 PM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

Thole Cow!

themetfairy Oct 01 2010 07:52 PM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

Let's keep him.

Ceetar Oct 01 2010 08:00 PM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

themetfairy wrote: Let's keep him. I hear Bengie Molina's a free agent. Why didn't we lock that guy up for two last year again?

Edgy DC Oct 01 2010 09:12 PM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

Hey, third Mets catcher to pull this off this season! Bet that's some kind of record. GET WITH THE PROGRAM, NICKEAS!

Rockin' Doc Oct 02 2010 07:36 AM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

Poor Nickeas doesn't stand a chance. It's virtually impossible to hit one out from the end of the bench. Thole's performance since coming up has been better than I had anticipated. His defence is far better than reports had led me to expect and he seems to be a steady, line drive hitter with occassional pop. Josh Tole has won me over.

Zvon Oct 02 2010 11:50 AM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

I love Thole. It seems he gets the barrel of the bat on the ball almost every time he hits it. Or just any part of his bat, which after this season I'll certainly settle for. He connects. I've been high on this guy for awhile now and last nights walk off didn't hurt. If he's an adequate catcher and he hits the way I think he will he'll do us fine behind the plate. And he's coming cheap. Over a whole MLB season I can only hope he holds up and shows consistency at the plate. And I think he deserves the chance show if he can do that or not. I'd rather the Mets put some brains behind how they spend their money for a change and go get what we really and obviously need.

Zvon Oct 02 2010 11:51 AM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

Willets Point wrote: Thole Cow! patent that WP

Willets Point Oct 02 2010 12:16 PM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

Zvon wrote: Willets Point wrote: Thole Cow! patent that WP Unfortunately I hear Phil Rizzuto in my head.

Frayed Knot Oct 02 2010 01:11 PM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

One thing that does remain to be seen is his hitting against LHP. Well under .200 to date (.167/.211/.222 - although 36 ABs isn't much of a sample size so far) while over .300 vs RHPs. Not sure if his minor league splits were as stark.

Rockin' Doc Oct 02 2010 04:03 PM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

One thing that does remain to be seen is his hitting against LHP. Well under .200 to date (.167/.211/.222 - although 36 ABs isn't much of a sample size so far) while over .300 vs RHPs. Not sure if his minor league splits were as stark. According to The Hardball Times Josh Thole's career minor league splits (1314 total at bats) look good.* Thole's minor league career vs. RH: .284/.375/.378 Thole's minor league career vs. LH: .317/.399/.376 Thole is just a good contact hitter. So it doesn't seem to matter much whether the pitcher is a righty or a lefty. *Unfortunately, they didn't break down how many of those at bats were against left handed pitching, which does weaken the point somewhat.

Frayed Knot Oct 02 2010 05:32 PM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

Probably less platooning in the minors so I'm sure the ABs aren't nearly as lopsided as are his Jerry-influenced ML ABs. Somewhat less power hitting lefty according to those (not that there's going to be a lot either way) but otherwise not bad at all.

MFS62 Oct 02 2010 06:22 PM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

After last night's game, Jerry was interviewed on WFAN and said that from what they've seen of the improvement in Thole's swing while he's been up with the big league club, Thole hitting 15 home runs next year wouldn't surprise him. Later

Vince Coleman Firecracker Oct 02 2010 08:47 PM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

Thole looks like a 2-3 WAR kinda player to me. That's top third in baseball most years.

John Cougar Lunchbucket May 19 2011 07:44 AM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: He's a player. I felt pretty good about Muffy heading into 09 though. Bam. Today Tracky mentioned that Niese is the latest pitcher to salute Paulino's game-calling. Thole meantime isn't hitting for shit either.

Edgy DC May 19 2011 07:55 AM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

Yeah, a pitcher turning the corner who specifically salutes the new guy's gamecalling --- it's not hard to read between the lines and find an indictment of the other guy. I'm just hoping some of what Paulino is bringing is rubbing off on the guy. It must be hard to step into a lineup as a young catcher, figuring out how to run a staff while figuring out how to stay alive against big-league pitchin', and it strikes me that most intern as a backup first.

smg58 May 19 2011 09:25 AM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

Thole's had 6 walks and 0 strikeouts over his last 19 plate appearances. The bad news is that he has no hits in that stretch, but hopefully he's starting to revert back to the patient contact hitter he was a year ago, in which case the hits will come.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 19 2011 11:34 AM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

I'm not sure patience has been the problem; there's been no significant change in his swing-choice numbers. He's just been missing more/making more weak contact. (More strikeouts, less contact, lower BABIP... maybe a timing thing?)

G-Fafif May 19 2011 01:34 PM Re: Josh Thole, 2K11?

Maybe this Josh's batting practice jersey is broken.