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The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

metsguyinmichigan Sep 28 2010 10:03 AM

NEW YORK (AP) — It could be a blaze of glory for Bon Jovi at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. The Jersey boys are up for possible induction in the hallowed hall, along with first-timers Donovan, Dr. John, Alice Cooper and Neil Diamond. The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame released its list of nominees Tuesday. There were some familiar names: Darlene Love, LL Cool J, Donna Summer and the Beastie Boys have been up for the prestigious honor before. Other previous nominees include the J. Geils Band; Tom Waits; Chuck Willis; Chic and Joe Tex. To be eligible for the hall, an act must have released its first batch of music at least 25 years ago. Inductees will be revealed in December, and the ceremony will be in March in New York City. First-timers: Bon Jovi Donovan Dr. John Alice Cooper Neil Diamond OK, Neil Diamond and Donovan have been around since the 1960s, Alice since the early 1970s, and they're just NOW getting nominated? Returners: Darlene Love LL Cool J Donna Summer Beastie Boys J Geils Band Tom Waits Chuck Willis Joe Tex That LL Cool J and Donna Summer are on this list is an insult to all things rock, even with the guitar solo in "Hot Stuff." I confess I don't know who CHuck Willis and Joe Tex are.

Chad Ochoseis Sep 28 2010 10:08 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Joe Tex, one-hit wonder from the '70s. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ih2_Sb6H9Po Fine song, but nothing to base a Hall of Fame career on. The shocker to me about that list? No Stevie Ray Vaughan. He's been eligible since 2008.

Edgy DC Sep 28 2010 10:52 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Joe Tex had a heckuva soul career. I don't think one-hit wonder is a fail approximation. Was also a forefunner of rappers. Donna Summer isn't at the top of my list either (Joan Jett is), but she has contributed more than a little to rock and roll: Listen to this track. Weak arrangement, but a heckuva rock 'n' roll vocal. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNRIPjmJaIM A better producer could've made that a legendary toon. She was like the Michael Corleone of disco. She kept trying to get out put they kept pulling her back in. If I had to pick five of the nominees, I'd go for: Neil Diamond Darlene Love Beastie Boys J Geils Band Chuck Willis No perfect choices there, but that's why you've got to gett Jett. I'd hapilly swap out Bon Jovi for any of the bottom three if you want star power. I love Tom Waits, but his legacy in the rock 'n' roll idiom isn't much more than Donna Summer's.

metirish Sep 28 2010 10:59 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

I read a few years back that Jon Bon Jovi pretty much became obsessed with his band geting into the HOF. No idea how to verify that but the article implied that he was going for that more amture sound with an eye towards Coopestown.

Edgy DC Sep 28 2010 11:01 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Given a choice of five acts from the whole universe, I choose for the Monkees, Rush, the Replacments, Joan Jett, and Darlene Love. Though if I want a brilliant neglected chick singer, I'd as soon go for Joan Armatrading. Darlene was great, but Phil Spector was pretty successful in torpedoing her career. I'd have Echo & the Bunnymen warming in the bullpen. That list sucks.

TransMonk Sep 28 2010 11:17 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Edgy DC wrote: Given a choice of five acts from the whole universe, I choose for the Monkees, Rush, the Replacments, Joan Jett, and Darlene Love. Though f I want a brilliant neglected chick singer, I'd as soon go for Joan Armatrading. Darlene was great, but Phil Spector was pretty successful in torpedoing her career. I'd have Echo & the Bunnymen warming in the bullpen. That list sucks. I agree with all of the above.

Willets Point Sep 28 2010 11:29 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

From that list I'd pick: Donovan Neil Diamond Beastie Boys Tom Waits

Ashie62 Sep 28 2010 11:43 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

From the list..Alice Cooper, Beasties & Donovan. If I could... 1. Husker Du 2. Dead Boys 3. Rush 4. Paul Westerberg (solo) 5. New York Dolls.

metirish Sep 28 2010 11:59 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

How is Tom Waits not in?

Edgy DC Sep 28 2010 12:02 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

have you ever rocked to him?

TransMonk Sep 28 2010 01:02 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Ashie62 wrote: 4. Paul Westerberg (solo) As opposed to The Replacements? That's a head-scratcher.

Fman99 Sep 28 2010 01:16 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Chad Ochoseis wrote: The shocker to me about that list? No Stevie Ray Vaughan. He's been eligible since 2008. The Cars, too. Come. On. Fuck the R&RHOF right in its guitar hole.

sharpie Sep 28 2010 01:45 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

From that list: Donovan (lots of hits, shoulda been there long ago) Tom Waits (no hits, must disagree with Edgy, can rock sometimes, just that his best stuff doesn't rock) Neil Diamond (kinda hate him but he belongs there) Darlene Love Donna Summer Sorry, I just don't get the Rush clamor. Yes was a better prog-rock band and they're not in. Once Yes is in I can reconsider Rush.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Sep 28 2010 01:51 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

First Sharpie appearance in awhile, no? Is Todd Rundgren in? He deserves it. Also Rush, Beasties, Donovan. But ultimately I don't much care. It would be cool if some musicians spoke out against Bon Jovi however.

sharpie Sep 28 2010 02:45 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Yeah, haven't been around much lately. Thanks for noticing. Bon Jovi not getting in would be more important than any one of these guys getting in. I agree about Todd Rundgren.

seawolf17 Sep 28 2010 03:01 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Yep: Bon Jovi Beastie Boys Alice Cooper Nope: Donovan Dr. John LL Cool J Donna Summer Neil Diamond Darlene Love J Geils Band Tom Waits Chuck Willis Joe Tex

Gwreck Sep 28 2010 03:13 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Yes: Alice Cooper Beastie Boys Tom Waits Chuck Willis, in the "early influences" category No: Everybody else. I might be persuaded on Darlene Love. Special note: LL Cool J probably deserves to be in a hall of fame somewhere but this is the "Rock and Roll" Hall of Fame and I would not categorize his work as rock. However, with the induction of artists such as Michael Jackson (for his solo career), Madonna, Grandmaster Flash, etc., the Hall is clearly moving towards becoming the "Popular Music Hall of Fame" so his induction would be less of a problem under those circumstances. --- I have the same complaint with this Hall as I do the baseball Hall: they are diluting the standards and it's not intended to be the hall of very good. Their requirement that 5 acts get inducted each year is a big problem.

Frayed Knot Sep 28 2010 03:14 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

And, btw, it's not possible to insult KISS enough.

Willets Point Sep 28 2010 05:49 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

sharpie wrote: Bon Jovi not getting in would be more important than any one of these guys getting in. This.

Kong76 Sep 29 2010 12:56 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Donna Summer, LL Cool J, Neil Diamond ... I'm dying. This yearly thing gets way too much attention. Next thing ya know Glee will be doing a class trip episode from the HOF ... Madonna ..

RealityChuck Sep 29 2010 08:00 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

From the list: Laura Nyro (who is listed as being nominated this year and is by far the most deserving) Donovan Alice Cooper J. Geils Tom Waits Others I'd consider: The Bonzo Dog Band Joan Armatrading Stevie Ray Vaughn The rest mentioned in the thread are no more than mediocre.

Edgy DC Sep 29 2010 08:08 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Somebody needs to be kissed on the bus.

Kong76 Sep 29 2010 07:10 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Kiss was cool from like '75-79, they've been kind of annoying ever since. I didn't like them back then, but I did start to ap- preciate them on some rocking level about ten years ago when I bought that Platinum CD or whatever it's called and maybe wished for about a week that I went to see them as, what, a freshman in high school. Fire, fire's cool ... he's got a big tongue ... hehe ... it's got blood on it ...hehe. They belong in the HOF if Michael Jackson or Madonna does. It's hard to knock Detroit Rock City, Cold Gin, R'NRAN, when put against Material Girl, and Keep My Baby. I can't do Rush justice, go buy Guitar Player magazine or some drummer mag from the '70s and '80s and start from there. Lee deserves his own thread, he would be knighted in Canada if they did that sort of thing, so I won't even start on him. Yes isn't in? (hey Cal!) The Cars? Vaughn? I gotta stop.

MFS62 Sep 29 2010 07:32 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

RIP Later

Frayed Knot Sep 29 2010 08:26 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

My favorite description about KISS - especially since it has the added value of actually being true - is the one where I tell people about how my brother was a huge fan ... and then he turned 13.

RealityChuck Sep 29 2010 08:49 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

The fact that Laura Nyro isn't in the rock hall is far more outrageous than any of the bands mentioned. She wrote more hits and influenced more songwriters than anyone on the list. Her albums (especially the "Big Three": Eli and the Thirteenth Confession, New York Tendaberry, and Christmas and the Beads of Sweat) contain more great songs than anyone else here. Her only failing is not to get great commercial success, while people like the Fifth Dimension (she wrote all their hits -- and her versions are even more soulful), Three Dog Night, and Blood Sweat and Tears made their careers by recording her songs. People who have cited Nyro as an influence include Elton John, Elvis Costello, Todd Rundgren, Alice Cooper*, Broadway composer Stephen Schwartz, Barry Manilow, Rickki Lee Jones, Janis Ian (who went to school with her), and even Kanye West. She is one of the three great women songwriters of the rock era, along with Carol King and Joni Mitchell. Now others are more popular, but no one on the list this year was better, and, if the world made any sense, she'd be a shoo-in. *It might be interesting if he accepted for her (she died in 1997).

Kong76 Sep 29 2010 09:00 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Is The Fifth Dimension in the HOF?

HahnSolo Sep 30 2010 07:22 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Question: How much does/should "influence" mean when considering someone for the R&R HOF?

TransMonk Sep 30 2010 07:26 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

I can't think of what should be considered more than the artist's influence.

Edgy DC Sep 30 2010 07:39 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Big hits (top 25-ers) by the 5th Dimension: [list][*]"Go Where You Wanna Go" (#16, written by John "Incest" Phillips)[/*:m] [*]"Up, Up, and Away" (#7, written by Jimmy Webb)[/*:m] [*]"Stoned Soul Picnic" (#3, written by Laura Nyro)[/*:m] [*]"Sweet Blindness" (#13, written by Laura Nyro)[/*:m] [*]"California Soul" (#25, written by Nick Ashford and Valerie Simpson)[/*:m] [*]"Aquarius/Let the Sunshine In" (#1, written by James Rado, Gerome Ragni, and Galt MacDermot)[/*:m] [*]"Wedding Bell Blues" (#1, written by Laura Nyro)[/*:m] [*]"Blowing Away" (#21, written by Laura Nyro)[/*:m] [*]"One Less Bell to Answer" (#2, written by Burt Bacharach and Hal David)[/*:m] [*]"Love's Lines, Angles, and Rhymes" (#19, written by Dorothea Joyce)[/*:m] [*]"Never My Love" (#12, written by Donald and Richard Addrisi)[/*:m] [*]""(Last Night) I Didn't Get to Sleep at All"" (#8, written by Tony McCauley)[/*:m] [*]"If I Could Reach You" (#10, written by Randy McNiel)[/*:m][/list:u] I'm probably missing one or two, but that's four out 13. Even if it were true that she wrote "all their hits," if you take Laura Nyro out of the picture, and asked somebody "Did you know that the composer on all the 5th Dimension's greatest hits isn't in the Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame?" I hardly think they'd be shocked. Everybody's hits were written by somebody. Paul Leka wrote two dozen hits, including a handful of number ones, and produced numerous others. It think it helps to take a step back. I don't even like Rush. I don't own any of their music, and don't regret it. I have only a little bit of Joan Jett's. But some of these cases are too compelling and go beyond personal favorites. I really don't like the Doors a bit, but their status in rock 'n' roll is undeniable. Laura Nyro for the Songwriter Hall of Fame? Sure! How soon can we make that happen? Wait... she's there already? Great! Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame? Well, she did inspire Jackson Browne to write "That Girl Could Sing," so there's that... I'd put her in ahead of Melissa Manchester, but not Todd Rundgren. I mean, "rock 'n' roll" means a lot of things to a lot of people, but it means some-thing. And I mean no disrespect when I say that something isn't the composer behind 30% of The 5th Dimension's hits.

Edgy DC Sep 30 2010 07:47 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

TransMonk wrote: I can't think of what should be considered more than the artist's influence. Go with "acts and artists that most influenced, defined, or advanced the rock 'n' roll art form" and you can't go wrong.

Kong76 Sep 30 2010 08:01 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Subdivisions ... [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu9Ycq64Gy4 Be cool or be cast out.

Edgy DC Sep 30 2010 08:04 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Oh, sure, I like that a lot. Any song featuring a video where a kid is playing Tempest is OK with me.

HahnSolo Sep 30 2010 08:09 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

TransMonk wrote: I can't think of what should be considered more than the artist's influence. Random act in the R&R Hall of Fame...The Pretenders (they're in, right?). Is it so wrong to not give a shit who influenced them?

Edgy DC Sep 30 2010 08:15 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

KISS, by the way, was nominated last year but did not make it.

TransMonk Sep 30 2010 08:48 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

HahnSolo wrote: Random act in the R&R Hall of Fame...The Pretenders (they're in, right?). Is it so wrong to not give a shit who influenced them? The Pretenders are in...but I'm thinking it's more about the younger acts that the HOF inductees influenced rather than the artists that influenced them.

RealityChuck Sep 30 2010 08:53 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Edgy DC wrote: Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame? Well, she did inspire Jackson Browne to write "That Girl Could Sing," so there's that... I'd put her in ahead of Melissa Manchester, but not Todd Rundgren. I mean, "rock 'n' roll" means a lot of things to a lot of people, but it means some-thing. And I mean no disrespect when I say that something isn't the composer behind 30% of The 5th Dimension's hits. If that were all, then I wouldn't argue. But her "big three" albums (as well as her first) stack up among the best the genre has to offer. Eli and the Thirteenth Confession was considered at the time the equal of the other great album release of that summer -- a little thing called Sargent Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band. And I think it even holds up better (Pepper, while great, is too much a product of the 60s; Eli is timeless). She was an amazing performer (her versions of songs that did become hits for others were always more powerful) who is handicapped only because she didn't like doing TV. She is the clearest, most obvious choice on the list this year. There should also be room in the hall for Captain Beefheart (who influenced no one, but was one of the most innovative talents in the genre), but that's not going to happen.

Edgy DC Sep 30 2010 09:05 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Well, I certainly have to say that everytime I hear her sing "Stoned Soul Picnic," I feel so good that I want to cry.

Ashie62 Sep 30 2010 09:32 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

RealityChuck wrote: Edgy DC wrote: Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame? Well, she did inspire Jackson Browne to write "That Girl Could Sing," so there's that... I'd put her in ahead of Melissa Manchester, but not Todd Rundgren. I mean, "rock 'n' roll" means a lot of things to a lot of people, but it means some-thing. And I mean no disrespect when I say that something isn't the composer behind 30% of The 5th Dimension's hits. If that were all, then I wouldn't argue. But her "big three" albums (as well as her first) stack up among the best the genre has to offer. Eli and the Thirteenth Confession was considered at the time the equal of the other great album release of that summer -- a little thing called Sargent Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band. And I think it even holds up better (Pepper, while great, is too much a product of the 60s; Eli is timeless). She was an amazing performer (her versions of songs that did become hits for others were always more powerful) who is handicapped only because she didn't like doing TV. She is the clearest, most obvious choice on the list this year. There should also be room in the hall for Captain Beefheart (who influenced no one, but was one of the most innovative talents in the genre), but that's not going to happen. Captain Beefheart reminds me of Ian Dury & the Blockheads

Ashie62 Sep 30 2010 09:34 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Question: How much does/should "influence" mean when considering someone for the R&R HOF? If influence were a true barometer the New York Dolls are so in.

Vic Sage Sep 30 2010 11:14 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

speaking of Joan Jett, i saw the biopic THE RUNAWAYS the other day. I was generally unimpressed, particularly with Kirsten stewart's interpretation of Ms. Jett, but Dakota Fanning definitely nailed CH-CH-CH-CHERRY BOMB!

metsguyinmichigan Sep 30 2010 11:21 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

I love Rush, I don't really care for Yes too much. But if Yes was in the Hall of Fame based on a long career and great sales over that long career, that would make sense to me. Kiss, too. I realize its a band people either think is fun or very, very lame. But it's still around after 35 years, still selling out arenas and still putting out music that sells fairly well. Maybe a Tony Perez kind of Hall of Famer, but certainly a Hall of Famer. I don't see how a band like AC/DC, which is just as lasting and, really, just as dumb, is in there and Kiss is not. I don't have a problem with ABBA, which sold a bazillion records and still gets its music played. And I'll even go with the Laura Nyro reasoning, though I think if you have her in there, then you need the ABBAs, Rushes and Kisses of the world. But LL Cool J? I know he's a hot actor on a big show and all. But does he still make music?

Frayed Knot Sep 30 2010 11:31 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Vic Sage wrote: speaking of Joan Jett, i saw the biopic THE RUNAWAYS the other day. I was generally unimpressed, particularly with Kirsten stewart's interpretation of Ms. Jett, but Dakota Fanning definitely nailed CH-CH-CH-CHERRY BOMB! I pretty much thought just the opposite - but you can weigh in here

Vic Sage Sep 30 2010 02:06 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Joan Jett said in the DVD commentary that RUSH was the band that bullied them out of their soundcheck in the movie...

metirish Sep 30 2010 02:25 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

I saw rush interviewed by John Roberts on CNN this morning , didn't catch it all but they did a flash back to a long haired Roberts interviewing them in 1981 , it was great , Roberts asked them then about the Reggae influence that seemed to have started with "Spirit of Radio" .

Gwreck Sep 30 2010 04:00 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

metsguyinmichigan wrote: I love Rush, I don't really care for Yes too much. But if Yes was in the Hall of Fame based on a long career and great sales over that long career, that would make sense to me. Kiss, too. I realize its a band people either think is fun or very, very lame. But it's still around after 35 years, still selling out arenas and still putting out music that sells fairly well. Maybe a Tony Perez kind of Hall of Famer, but certainly a Hall of Famer. I don't see how a band like AC/DC, which is just as lasting and, really, just as dumb, is in there and Kiss is not. I don't have a problem with ABBA, which sold a bazillion records and still gets its music played. And I'll even go with the Laura Nyro reasoning, though I think if you have her in there, then you need the ABBAs, Rushes and Kisses of the world. I would be very wary of suggesting that sales are an important factor in whether a band gets into the hall of fame. I personally think Rush and Yes should be in the Hall of Fame, but sales has very little to do with why. Longevity, quality of material, being innovators in their sub-genre of "progressive" rock, etc. are why they matter and why they are worthy. By the same token, that's why Kiss is not, no matter how many records they sold.

Kong76 Sep 30 2010 04:17 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

For people my age, it could be argued that Rock n' Roll All Night and Party Every Night is HOF worthy on it's own ... Boppin' to that at a middle school dance and swappin' spit and coppin' a first feel with ***** ***** is a nice memory. Still, I like this song the best for some reason: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFcrKx9sw4s

TransMonk Sep 30 2010 05:31 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Gwreck wrote: I personally think Rush and Yes should be in the Hall of Fame, but sales has very little to do with why. Longevity, quality of material, being innovators in their sub-genre of "progressive" rock, etc. are why they matter and why they are worthy. By the same token, that's why Kiss is not, no matter how many records they sold. Well put.

Ashie62 Sep 30 2010 07:12 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Rush was a very different band up to the first live "All the World's a Stage." I have no use for the "Tom Sawyer" type stuff. As a 3 piece metal trio their early stuff rocks.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Sep 30 2010 07:30 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Ashie62 wrote: Rush was a very different band up to the first live "All the World's a Stage." I have no use for the "Tom Sawyer" type stuff. As a 3 piece metal trio their early stuff rocks. The documentary film on Rush (it's airing on the Palladium channel now if you happen to get that) makes it clear why they stopped with the epic stuff. It was too exhausting even for them! Cramming those heavy chops into shorter, more contemporary chunks in a lot of ways was the more impressive accomplishment and anything that helped them concentrate on, you know, melodies was good.

Gwreck Sep 30 2010 09:50 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Edgy DC wrote: Laura Nyro for the Songwriter Hall of Fame? Sure! How soon can we make that happen? Wait... she's there already? Great! Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame? There is a non-performers category that people like Holland/Dozier/Holland or Gamble/Huff, so I'd have no problem with her getting in that way. But as a performer? Nope. Same problem I had when they induced Leonard Cohen as a performer rather than as a songwriter.

Edgy DC Sep 30 2010 10:15 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Yeah, but you miss my point, which isn't that she's a songwriter, but simply that her music has a Rock 'n' Roll Quotient of only about 23%. And if you include the parts of my post you didn't cite, you'd see I didn't throw her case out outright, nor that of Tom Waits (17% R'n'RQ), but remain troubled as to why they (and others) are higher priorites than un-nominateds Joan Jett (91%), Jonathan Richman (76%), Warren Zevon (78%), Dave Edmunds (94%), Nick Lowe (88%), the Replacments (96%), or Sister Rosetta Tharpe (85%) --- most or all probably with lesser legacies overall (although God bless the Replacements), but with greater rock 'n' roll legacies.

sharpie Sep 30 2010 10:22 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

There is a non-performers category that people like Holland/Dozier/Holland or Gamble/Huff, so I'd have no problem with her getting in that way. But as a performer? Nope. Same problem I had when they induced Leonard Cohen as a performer rather than as a songwriter. The Leonard Cohen concert I saw was certainly the best show I saw last year. Never saw Laura Nyro so I can't comment. She rarely toured.

Ashie62 Sep 30 2010 11:35 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

These guys should be in the hall. [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64Kz3D2OgAE&feature=fvw

Edgy DC Oct 10 2010 05:13 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

A 1985 review I just stumbled over. "Asylum continues to display Kiss's ability to flog hapless consumers a product they don't need and which has no intrinsic value whatsoever. This is marketing at its best. And music at its worst." -- NME

cooby Oct 10 2010 08:56 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Is Todd Rundgren in? He deserves it. . ah, yes, I remember now that you are my fellow Todd Rundgren fan!

Number 6 Oct 10 2010 10:07 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Edgy DC wrote: A 1985 review I just stumbled over. "Asylum continues to display Kiss's ability to flog hapless consumers a product they don't need and which has no intrinsic value whatsoever. This is marketing at its best. And music at its worst." -- NME KISS could be the Babe Ruth of a new Schlock 'n Roll Hall of Fame in Orlando.

HahnSolo Oct 11 2010 07:19 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Edgy DC wrote: A 1985 review I just stumbled over. "Asylum continues to display Kiss's ability to flog hapless consumers a product they don't need and which has no intrinsic value whatsoever. This is marketing at its best. And music at its worst." -- NME I am not a KISS fan in any way, but a Kiss fan would probably say why call it a Hall of Fame if they can't get in? If nothing else, they have fame, don't they?

Edgy DC Oct 11 2010 08:04 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Oh, I support their case. But the music that they put out during the eighties was mercilessly bad. But each successive album featured proclamations of a return to form from Paul and Gene. But instead of the stupid fun they were hoping for, each one was just really stupid. But just enough folks fell for it to keep the band going. You know, in reviewing and re-ranking my "Top Songs of 1985" list, I gave reconsideraton to Fly on the Wall, an AC/DC effort from that year which Malcolm and Angus Young produced in an effort to get them back to the raw sound of their Bon Scott-era beginnings. The beats were big, the sound was stupid, but none of the music really caught anybody's imagination, including mine (though the two singles were included among the big AC/DC hits used on the Maximum Overdrive soundtrack). I'm not going to say you can't go back, but it's really hard. And when "back" means sublimely stupid, maybe it's better to try and find a way to go forward, because trying to tell an old joke a new way to the same old audience when you're not the same guy anymore can be as insincere as any new maneuver.

metsguyinmichigan Oct 11 2010 08:43 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss... Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 11 2010 08:59 AM

I don't know. The '80s albums weren't that bad. The critics are going to pound them no matter what, because they throw you out of the critics club if you say anything even remotely nice about Kiss. Trust me on this, arts reporters and sports reporters are pack animals where groupthink reigns. The band was floating all over the place in the '80s, chasing hot producers like Ron Nevison, who resurrected groups like Heart. Gene was off making movies and the lead guitar slot was a revolving door. Each of those CDs have some good songs. "Lick it Up" is the strongest of the lot, but "Animalize" went double platinum and had "Heaven's on Fire," "Asylum" had "Tears are Falling" and "Crazy Nights" had some good songs, though they sure don't sound like typical Kiss with those keyboards. I really liked "Hot in the Shade," which came out in 1989. I know the Rock Hall tends to be all high-brow and stuff. That's why I'm surprised that AC/DC is in there. My favorite line from Brain Johnson. A critic said to him, "You' got 10 albums and they all sound exactly the same." Johnson: "No, you're wrong. I think we have 11." I don't see how you have AC/DC in there and keep Kiss, Def Leppard et al on the outside. Sort of a bad business decision, too. A Laura Nyro exhibit isn't going to sell a lot of tickets. But the Kiss Army would line up to see Gene's demon boots. I'm not saying Nyro doesn't belong, and I'm certainly not saying AC/DC doesn't belong. They have plenty of room over there. And as long as they keep insisting of putting people like Bobby Womack in there, they are going to have to listen to people complain about populist bands being left out -- like Journey, Chicago, Foreigner, the Cars....

Edgy DC Oct 11 2010 08:57 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

metsguyinmichigan wrote: The critics are going to pound them no matter what, because they throw you out of the critics club if you say anything even remotely nice about Kiss. Trust me on this, arts reporters and sports reporters are pack animals where groupthink reigns. I completely concur that critical consensus is a bad and pervasive thing. It's not going along with consensus that makes me think they weren't cutting it in the eighties, though.

Gwreck Oct 11 2010 12:07 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

metsguyinmichigan wrote: Sort of a bad business decision, too. A Laura Nyro exhibit isn't going to sell a lot of tickets. But the Kiss Army would line up to see Gene's demon boots. The museum's collections are not limited to inducted artists, though. I don't have a distinct memory but I think I saw some Kiss stuff when I was there in January. (Granted, some special attention is usually paid to the most-recent inductees).

G-Fafif Oct 11 2010 01:38 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Edgy DC wrote: Yeah, but you miss my point, which isn't that she's a songwriter, but simply that her music has a Rock 'n' Roll Quotient of only about 23%. And if you include the parts of my post you didn't cite, you'd see I didn't throw her case out outright, nor that of Tom Waits (17% R'n'RQ), but remain troubled as to why they (and others) are higher priorites than un-nominateds Joan Jett (91%), Jonathan Richman (76%), Warren Zevon (78%), Dave Edmunds (94%), Nick Lowe (88%), the Replacments (96%), or Sister Rosetta Tharpe (85%) --- most or all probably with lesser legacies overall (although God bless the Replacements), but with greater rock 'n' roll legacies. Please share your formula for this hitherto unknown metric.

Edgy DC Oct 11 2010 02:20 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

You didn't think much of my defintion last year. Rock 'n' Roll: a form of American popular music born of a hybrid of rhythm and blues and American country. The music achieved popular dominance in the fifties and was elemental in cultural shifts that would follow, though many researchers would point to antecedents as early as the beginning of the 1940s. Its popularity has spread to much of the world and continues today, though its dominance has waned in the rise of other pop forms. Related genres include soul, rock, rockablily, jump blues, and many others.

G-Fafif Oct 11 2010 06:24 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

But you didn't express it mathematically before.

Ashie62 Oct 12 2010 08:56 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Gwreck wrote: metsguyinmichigan wrote: Sort of a bad business decision, too. A Laura Nyro exhibit isn't going to sell a lot of tickets. But the Kiss Army would line up to see Gene's demon boots. The museum's collections are not limited to inducted artists, though. I don't have a distinct memory but I think I saw some Kiss stuff when I was there in January. (Granted, some special attention is usually paid to the most-recent inductees). That is true. Kinda like the Baseball Hall of Famer. Plenty of artists not in the hall are represented by clothes, guitars etc. Pete Rose is all over the Baseball Hall.

Edgy DC Oct 14 2010 07:18 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Jan and Dean: not in, not on the list of the nominated. Jan and Dean?

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 20 2010 09:54 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Joe Friggin' Jackson deserves in. So does Graham Parker.

Edgy DC Oct 20 2010 09:59 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Which brings us back to the same point.

seawolf17 Oct 20 2010 12:46 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Who the hell is Graham Parker? I think you just made him up.

Edgy DC Oct 20 2010 01:55 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Sounds like somebody needs a poll.

Fman99 Oct 20 2010 01:56 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

seawolf17 wrote: Who the hell is Graham Parker? I think you just made him up. Lead singer of my favorite unknown Southern rock combo, Graham and the Crackers.

seawolf17 Oct 20 2010 02:11 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Edgy DC wrote: Sounds like somebody needs a poll. Have you ever heard of Graham Parker? ( ) yes (x) no

Willets Point Oct 20 2010 02:15 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Heard of ... yes Heard ... no, I don't think so.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 20 2010 02:19 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

I'll make a poll. I don;t require you love it, but you should listen!

Edgy DC Oct 20 2010 02:19 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

What kind of Unitarian doesn't know the beauty Graham Parker has brought to mankind?

Ashie62 Oct 21 2010 01:01 PM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

You don't like Graham Parker and the Rumour? There's Garland Jeffreys and the Rumour. [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_s-x66caAqs

HahnSolo Dec 15 2010 08:31 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Inductees: [url]http://rockhall.com/inductees

Edgy DC Dec 15 2010 08:39 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

The entire Alice Cooper Band makes it in? Before there was Ozzy Osbourne, Marilyn Manson or KISS, there was Alice Cooper, the original self-proclaimed “rock villain.” Born Vincent Furnier, Cooper and his mighty band of the same name – lead guitarist Glen Buxton, rhythm guitarist Michael Bruce, bass player Dennis Dunaway and drummer Neal Smith – pioneered the dark spectacle of heavy metal with their huge blues-rock sound and extravagant stage show. Drawing from horror movies and vaudeville, Cooper brought a new level of visual theatrics to arenas with guillotines, electric chairs, boa constrictors and fake blood; their 1973 tour broke box office records previously held by the Rolling Stones, and raised the bar for major rock tours. What made it stick were some of the catchiest, most reckless hard-rock songs of all time: “Eighteen,” “School's Out,” “No More Mr. Nice Guy.” Along with the New York Dolls and David Bowie, Alice Cooper was a starting point for the glam rock of the 1970s; it's impossible to imagine the hair metal of the 1980s without them. You can hear and see the band's influence in bands from the Sex Pistols to Guns n’ Roses. The original lineup split in the mid-Seventies, and singer Cooper would continue on with an evolving lineup; in the meantime, the pure shock value of America's first shock rockers has faded, but their legacy is safe. Alice pre-dates Ozzy?

sharpie Dec 15 2010 09:55 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Actually, this isn't a bad group of inductees. Tom Waits, Neil Diamond, Darlene Love, Leon Russell and Alice Cooper are all good choices.

seawolf17 Dec 15 2010 10:00 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Edgy DC wrote: The entire Alice Cooper Band makes it in? Before there was Ozzy Osbourne, Marilyn Manson or KISS, there was Alice Cooper, the original self-proclaimed “rock villain.” Born Vincent Furnier, Cooper and his mighty band of the same name – lead guitarist Glen Buxton, rhythm guitarist Michael Bruce, bass player Dennis Dunaway and drummer Neal Smith – pioneered the dark spectacle of heavy metal with their huge blues-rock sound and extravagant stage show. Drawing from horror movies and vaudeville, Cooper brought a new level of visual theatrics to arenas with guillotines, electric chairs, boa constrictors and fake blood; their 1973 tour broke box office records previously held by the Rolling Stones, and raised the bar for major rock tours. What made it stick were some of the catchiest, most reckless hard-rock songs of all time: “Eighteen,” “School's Out,” “No More Mr. Nice Guy.” Along with the New York Dolls and David Bowie, Alice Cooper was a starting point for the glam rock of the 1970s; it's impossible to imagine the hair metal of the 1980s without them. You can hear and see the band's influence in bands from the Sex Pistols to Guns n’ Roses. The original lineup split in the mid-Seventies, and singer Cooper would continue on with an evolving lineup; in the meantime, the pure shock value of America's first shock rockers has faded, but their legacy is safe. Alice pre-dates Ozzy? Technically, yes. "Pretties for You" was 1969, "Sabbath" was 1970.

Edgy DC Dec 15 2010 10:10 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

sharpie wrote: Actually, this isn't a bad group of inductees. Tom Waits, Neil Diamond, Darlene Love, Leon Russell and Alice Cooper are all good choices. Dr. John isn't your cup? Yes, I'll give them a "not bad" on this crop. Darlene Love is a wonderful inductee. Probably the nunber two female soul singer ever and would be a legend a half if not for Phil Spector's manipulations (not all of them malicious) and other bad breaks. She took work as a maid in the seventies. Stunning. Technically, yes. "Pretties for You" was 1969, "Sabbath" was 1970. I am schooled.

metirish Dec 15 2010 10:33 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

I'm chuffed that Tom Waits gets in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtDptbeqqkQ

sharpie Dec 15 2010 11:44 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

I've got nothing against Dr. John. Just doesn't feel that important to me. Had the swampy sound that he did forever, had one hit.

Ashie62 Dec 16 2010 07:10 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Congrats to all! but Dr. John? really? Is Tom Waits Rock n roll?

Edgy DC Dec 16 2010 08:03 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Tom Waits has about 29% rock 'n' roll content. Dr. John maybe 37%? Maybe? It's almost like Wenner's panel votes in their guys who are good for reams of critical prose like Waits and Cohen, then vote in banal pop successes like Madonna to protect themselves from populist criticism of elitism, and what is and isn't rock 'n' roll gets blurred on both the high and low ends.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 16 2010 08:53 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Show your maths! Though I wouldn't run out of a free show, personally, I can take or leave Dr. John. Waits is a better fit for a Kurt-Weill-Descendants HOF or Awesome Weirdo Jazzbos with An Oddly Sentimental Bent HOF. I can picture his bemused smirk at the HOF dinner in my head without any strain. Should be a hell of a show this year, though; that's some fertile-- and, perhaps more importantly, underexposed-- musical product/territory among the inductees.

Number 6 Dec 16 2010 08:58 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Edgy DC wrote: ...and what is and isn't rock 'n' roll gets blurred... And it's a pretty blurry thing to begin with. Despite which, I feel confident in saying that Abba and the BeeGees are well outside the grid. The HOF has definitely taken a wide interpretation of what Rock 'n Roll is, so much so that they've vacated their credibility as an arbiter.

Edgy DC Dec 16 2010 09:33 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Show your maths! Though I wouldn't run out of a free show, personally, I can take or leave Dr. John. Waits is a better fit for a Kurt-Weill-Descendants HOF or Awesome Weirdo Jazzbos with An Oddly Sentimental Bent HOF. I can picture his bemused smirk at the HOF dinner in my head without any strain. Should be a hell of a show this year, though; that's some fertile-- and, perhaps more importantly, underexposed-- musical product/territory among the inductees. Tom Waits belongs in the inaugural class of Caberet Hall of Fame along with Liza Minelli and Edith Piaf. I give him all respect and love. (He had about eight songs from Rain Dogs in my Top 162 of 1985.) The math is intutitve, but I think you get what I'm pushing at. If he's rarely worked in a place firmly anchored within the rock 'n' roll genre he's spent some quality time in sibling and cousin genres like country, soul, and rhthym and blues, and he's tapped into the same haunted romantic American vein as Roy Orbison, so I think his presence is more or less fine, but his presence while the likes of Nick Lowe go un-nominated speaks to the ongoing weakness of the institution and the voters' lack of faith in the viability of the actual genre. That, as you may have read, makes me sad.

sharpie Dec 16 2010 10:10 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Neil Diamond responds to the argument at hand: People always grumble that rappers or groups like ABBA don't belong in the Hall of Fame. Don't you think that "rock and roll" is a very loose term? I think any music that's made by the youngsters of the generations from the 1950s until the present is some form of rock music, unless specifically stated otherwise. Might be a useful definition.

Edgy DC Dec 16 2010 10:21 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

I think the liines are blurry to be sure, as they are for all artisitc genres, but I sure don't think we need a definittion that loose, or that anybody is well-served by it. (Charlotte Church fans demand her inclusion!) I'm certainly a supporter of his induction, but he seems a little defensive, as if the criticism against the ABBA selection, if permitted to continue apace, was bound to catch up with him. Don't believe it, Neil. You rocked and rolled. You had the ways to make them happy. Neil's just being a gracious guy, I think.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 16 2010 11:07 AM Re: The annual insult to Rush, Kiss...

Edgy DC wrote: LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Show your maths! Though I wouldn't run out of a free show, personally, I can take or leave Dr. John. Waits is a better fit for a Kurt-Weill-Descendants HOF or Awesome Weirdo Jazzbos with An Oddly Sentimental Bent HOF. I can picture his bemused smirk at the HOF dinner in my head without any strain. Should be a hell of a show this year, though; that's some fertile-- and, perhaps more importantly, underexposed-- musical product/territory among the inductees. Tom Waits belongs in the inaugural class of Caberet Hall of Fame along with Liza Minelli and Edith Piaf. I give him all respect and love. (He had about eight songs from Rain Dogs in my Top 162 of 1985.) The math is intutitve, but I think you get what I'm pushing at. If he's rarely worked in a place firmly anchored within the rock 'n' roll genre he's spent some quality time in sibling and cousin genres like country, soul, and rhthym and blues, and he's tapped into the same haunted romantic American vein as Roy Orbison, so I think his presence is more or less fine, but his presence while the likes of Nick Lowe go un-nominated speaks to the ongoing weakness of the institution and the voters' lack of faith in the viability of the actual genre. That, as you may have read, makes me sad. Piaf. Good one. And yeah, I get it. Honestly, that's why I don't post so much in this thread... it's even more pointless than the Baseball HOF debates, because the institution is so vague as to be meaningless. For my money, it's only really satisfying for how-good-the-party-gonna-be type discussion.