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Andy Pettitte? Seriously?

metsguyinmichigan Oct 18 2010 08:31 AM

Ian O'Connor, my new favorite columnist to hate, aids and abets Reggie Jackson's nonsense that if Pettitte beat Cliff Lee in the next game, it makes a statement toward landing Andy in Cooperstown. [url]http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/columns/story?columnist=oconnor_ian&id=5697505 Ian touts Andy's 240 wins and winning percentage. He forgets the ERA that's hovering near 4.00, the mere three All-Star Game selections, the decided lack of Cy Young Awards.

Edgy DC Oct 18 2010 08:33 AM Re: Andy Pettitte? Seriously?

...the roids...

metirish Oct 18 2010 08:35 AM Re: Andy Pettitte? Seriously? Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 18 2010 08:43 AM

Oh what bullshit.....all of it...and WTF does this mean? But Jackson also believes there should be a second Hall of Fame for the real Hall of Famers. In other words, he believes there are too many ballplayers enshrined in Cooperstown, men who were too mortal on the playing field to be sculpted into bronze baseball gods. and beating Lee tonight would not serve as a tie-breaker down the line.....fuck sake man, he's not pitched bigger games in the past?.....oh and the needles, let's not forget those....

G-Fafif Oct 18 2010 08:37 AM Re: Andy Pettitte? Seriously?

Let's just cut down on the paperwork and have these writers vote on whether non-Yankees can be voted into the Yankees five years after they retire.

metsguyinmichigan Oct 18 2010 08:45 AM Re: Andy Pettitte? Seriously?

Exactly!!! Pettitte is the product of being a decent pitcher on a stacked team. Of course he's going to have more wins backed by a $200 million team. Ian notes that Pettitte has a better winning percentage than Seaver. Seaver pitched on some not-so-great teams. Has Pettitte ever pitched on a sub-.500 team? If Pettitte had been on the Royals all these years, is there even a hint of a conversation that he's going to Cooperstown?

Edgy DC Oct 18 2010 08:51 AM Re: Andy Pettitte? Seriously?

metsguyinmichigan wrote: Ian notes that Pettitte has a better winning percentage than Seaver. Does he mention that it's worse than Ron Guidry's?

HahnSolo Oct 18 2010 10:07 AM Re: Andy Pettitte? Seriously?

metirish wrote: Oh what bullshit.....all of it...and WTF does this mean? But Jackson also believes there should be a second Hall of Fame for the real Hall of Famers. In other words, he believes there are too many ballplayers enshrined in Cooperstown, men who were too mortal on the playing field to be sculpted into bronze baseball gods. and beating Lee tonight would not serve as a tie-breaker down the line.....fuck sake man, he's not pitched bigger games in the past?.....oh and the needles, let's not forget those.... If Reggie, with his .262 career average, and the career leader in times struck out, is advocating for a second HOF with "real" Hall of Famers, i hope he'd advocate to keep himself out of it.

SteveJRogers Oct 18 2010 10:11 AM Re: Andy Pettitte? Seriously?

Pretty much a big reason why it was such a mistake to give the HOF membership voting rights on the Veterans Committee ballots. Too much subjectivity, especially with people too close to the subjects and too much belief in the hype of the postseason.

Edgy DC Oct 18 2010 10:17 AM Re: Andy Pettitte? Seriously?

I disagree. The players' loyalties tend to cancel each other out. I mean, if it's such a bad idea, why hasn't the veteran's committee been able to get virtually anybody through in recent years? They had three elections and hadn't gotten anybody through, with some members going so far as to admit that they don't want to water down their own legacies any further. They since keep changing the rules and it's still hard as heck. They've elected a few managers and Joe Gordon since. Gordon got in through a sub-committee.

Vic Sage Oct 18 2010 11:37 AM Re: Andy Pettitte? Seriously?

... ughhhh ... `scuse me. i just threw up in my mouth.

Centerfield Oct 18 2010 12:14 PM Re: Andy Pettitte? Seriously?

Edgy DC wrote: ...the roids... I mean really. So Bonds, Clemens and McGwire are out, but Andy's should get in despite not being qualified? Why? Because he prays a lot?

Fman99 Oct 18 2010 01:18 PM Re: Andy Pettitte? Seriously?

It'll be a LONG time before anyone with the taint of PED allegations (Bonds, Mcgwire, Sosa, Pettitte, Clemens, A-Rod, Palmiero, etc.) gets anything approaching 50% of the vote needed for HoF induction. They'll save their votes for guys who while suspect never actually had an accusation in print (Bagwell, Piazza, Frank Thomas), or skinny guys who've done well for themselves (Griffey, Ichiro). Not that Mcgwire is a shoo-in, or ever was, but he's been in that 25% of the vote range, and Pettitte never had the equivalent star power of Big Mac. Whitey Ford he ain't.

Edgy DC Oct 18 2010 02:00 PM Re: Andy Pettitte? Seriously?

Piazza actually has had accusations in print. What he hasn't had is a link to a failed test, a suspect trainer, or a criminal labratory. I don't think the "accusatons in print" standard can hold. I mean, I accuse Derek Jeter of fisting one roid after another down his throat and into his ass in the Yankee dugout during post-season compeittion. There, it's in print.

seawolf17 Oct 18 2010 02:43 PM Re: Andy Pettitte? Seriously?

Well, online. It's only in print if Lunchbucket decides to print it out and archive it in his basement. But let's get past our MFY hate for a minute and look objectively at Pettitte for a minute. * 240 wins, but admittedly, wins are a stupid stat * 3.88 career ERA, which, according to that article, would be the highest ERA in the Hall * 19-9 career postseason: once you get past the inflated era-related volume, you'll see he's "only" 5-4, 4.06 in eight Serieses. The only b-r.com metric that puts him anywhere near HOF consideration is the "HOF Monitor" metric. If his fans want to point to that stat, let's see what neighborhood Pettitte is in, shall we (throwing out pre-1900 guys): Lefty Gomez 128 (HOF) Robin Roberts 128 (HOF) Rich Gossage 126 (HOF) John Franco 124 Jack Morris 122 Andy Pettitte 122 Interesting. Gomez was a seven-time AS who won five rings. He got MVP votes four times (there was no Cy Young then), and had a pretty astounding nine year run before (I'm assuming from the way he fell off) injuries got the best of him. Even so, he never came close in regular voting until the Vets put him into the Hall in 1972. Roberts pitched nineteen seasons and was probably a no-brainer. His seven-year run from 1950-1956 put him in the ASG every year AND got him MVP votes every year; he finished in the top SEVEN five times. Elected on the fourth ballot. Gossage is a reliever, and nobody thinks John Franco is a Hall of Famer, so we'll leave them out. Morris is an annual argument, and an interesting one. Let's compare Morris and Pettitte with the two pitchers b-r says are Pettitte's closest contemporaries, David Wells and Kevin Brown. Morris: 5 ASGs, 7 top-ten CYA finishes, 5 top-25 MVP finishes, 3.90 ERA, 3 WS titles (all as staff ace, including winning 1991 clincher) Pettitte: 3 ASGs, 5 top-ten CYA finishes, 2 top-25 MVP finishes, 3.88 ERA, 5 WS titles (ace in 1996) Wells: 3 ASGs, 2 top-ten CYA finishes, 2 top-25 MVP finishes, 4.13 ERA, 2 WS titles (1992 in TOR 'pen, 1998) Brown: 6 ASGs, 5 top-ten CYA finishes, 2 top-25 MVP finishes, 3.28 ERA, 1 WS title (1997 w/Florida; he was 0-2 in two WS starts) I'm not saying Pettitte is/was a bad pitcher; not by any means. But he's not an all-time great.

metsmarathon Oct 18 2010 02:56 PM Re: Andy Pettitte? Seriously?

his career WAR, per baseballreference, of 50.20 puts him 0.2 behind [u:3ou2fo8i]kevin appier[/u:3ou2fo8i], 77th among pitchers.

seawolf17 Oct 18 2010 03:05 PM Re: Andy Pettitte? Seriously?

metsmarathon wrote: his career WAR, per baseballreference, of 50.20 puts him 0.2 behind kevin appier, 77th among pitchers. Which answers the whole "if he pitched for the Royals" question, I guess.

metirish Oct 18 2010 03:11 PM Re: Andy Pettitte? Seriously?

Good work guys, especially Wolf. The stare from beneath the cap coupled with him being a member of the core four gets him in....... Sc = alot

G-Fafif Oct 18 2010 04:16 PM Re: Andy Pettitte? Seriously?

The stare from beneath the cap coupled with him being a member of the core four gets him in....... Well, that settles it: The stare. It's not the thousand-yard stare of battle, but it is battle-hardened. This stare's ultimate gaze measures 139 miles, the distance from the Bronx northward, clear up to the humble hamlet of Cooperstown, New York, where humility is appropriate given the quiet sincerity of the gentleman warrior who will be making his way upstate five years after his adoring public wipes away the final tear it sheds from absorbing the news that he will pitch in Pinstripes no longer (although it may require a case of Kleenex to thoroughly dry that much melancholy). Andy Pettitte's looking at induction into the Baseball Hall of Fame. It's as clear as the stoic stare on the tested Texan's face. You may not see it in his stats, but leave his numbers where they belong, on the page. Look, instead, into Andy Pettitte's dark, brooding eyes. It's what opposing batters and national television audiences have been doing nearly every fifth autumn evening since 1995. It's been their pleasure. Oh, those eyes. Within them you are granted entry into the soul of specialness. It's like being on a first date with Yankee greatness, a date you wish would never end. The good news is it won't. There will be no awkward "will he or won't he?" scene at the front step, no kiss-off of this superlative southpaw. The Baseball Writers Association of America, having been given the time of its life across so many Octobers (and not a few early Novembers), will invite Andy Pettitte upstairs for coffee. And he'll be staying the night. Baseball fans everywhere will sleep easier knowing Pettitte is forever snug in immortality's embrace. He's earned it, just as surely as Mariano Rivera has earned the soft rain of adulation. The Captain, Derek Jeter, led them here. Jeter brought Pettitte, Rivera and Jorge Posada to this core foursome, this unsurpassed quartet where the price of admission is five World Series rings and a lifetime of memories. Now they will hold hands in Cooperstown for as long as there are fans who hold baseball -- Yankee baseball (is there any other kind?) -- dear in their hearts. It is an unbreakable bond, a chain of excellence in which Pettitte's link is secure. The only question that remains is when will the voting writers wake up? When will they smell the triumphant coffee and add Bernie Williams, Paul O'Neill and Jim Leyritz (a Pete Rose type who never gambled but always cashed in) to their menage a tremendous? And how much longer will it take until The Boss -- tapping his wristwatch, waiting impatiently, but inevitably glowing that warm paternal pride born of victory and love -- is there to greet them? Can it really be a Hall of Fame if a Yankee -- any Yankee -- is ever excluded from the induction each and every one of them so richly deserves?

metirish Oct 18 2010 04:32 PM Re: Andy Pettitte? Seriously?

I'm standing outside my wife's Chase branch waiting for her and I am sure passersby are wondering why I am laughing out loud.

SteveJRogers Oct 18 2010 05:11 PM Re: Andy Pettitte? Seriously?

Greg, you should have saved that for the April 1st post at FaFiF!

G-Fafif Oct 18 2010 11:02 PM Re: Andy Pettitte? Seriously?

In defeat, it is Andy Pettitte who emerges as the authentic winner.

G-Fafif Oct 19 2010 03:06 AM Re: Andy Pettitte? Seriously?

Staring contest: vs. In any event, expanded, updated version Pettitte = Immortal here. Thanks to all for the conversation that provided the inspiration.

metsguyinmichigan Oct 19 2010 05:55 AM Re: Andy Pettitte? Seriously?

Brilliant! And I must say, FAFIF is just locked in right now, like David Wright when he goes on one of those massive tears!