Master Index of Archived Threads


Bill Price: Beltran off the hook

metsguyinmichigan Oct 25 2010 09:04 AM

[url]http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/bitterbill/2010/10/thanks-to-a-rod-and-howard-bel.html Thanks to A-Rod and Howard, Beltran officially off the hook ģ By Bill Price In what was an unbelievable 24-hour stretch of baseball, the Yanks and Phillies, two teams that appeared to be sure locks to reach the World Series, were both KOd in similar fashion. Both teams, both high-powered offensive teams, lost in 6 games to teams nobody really gave a chance to win. And both teams saw their seasons end with their biggest sluggers looking at a called third strike. With that in mind, I never, ever, want to hear a Yankee fan or Phillie fan ever bring up Carlos Beltran's at-bat to end the 2006 NLCS ever again. OK, A-Rod really didn't have a chance. His team was down five runs and there was nobody on base. But Ryan Howard had the tying run on second and the winning run on first and looked at pitch that was nasty, but certainly not as nasty as the one Adam Wainright threw Beltran. Yes, A-Rod and Howard do have World Series rings to their names, but if this week shows anything, it's that nothing is guaranteed in baseball, and that Carlos Beltran isn't the only guy to look at strike three with the season on the line.

Ceetar Oct 25 2010 09:22 AM Re: Bill Price: Beltran off the hook

Yankees and Phillies shouldn't talk about Beltran anyway. (btw, Delgado would probably be classified as the Mets biggest slugger in 2006) It's one AB, these things happen. it's not like it meant he's a bad player. And still, they are worlds apart. Wainwright's pitch decided the Pennant, in that if he'd grooved one the Mets would've captured it. No matter what A-Rod or Howard did, that wouldn't have been the case.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 25 2010 09:32 AM Re: Bill Price: Beltran off the hook

Is Bill Price related to that AOL Fanhouse guy?

Fman99 Oct 25 2010 10:14 AM Re: Bill Price: Beltran off the hook

Utter horseshit. I'll let him off the hook when the Mets are hoisting a World Championship trophy. Until then Beltran can continue to sit in the Bartman seats.

Edgy DC Oct 25 2010 10:21 AM Re: Bill Price: Beltran off the hook

The best way to keep a guy from striking out with the game on the line is to do more with your other 26 outs.

G-Fafif Oct 25 2010 10:23 AM Re: Bill Price: Beltran off the hook

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Is Bill Price related to that AOL Fanhouse guy? Two for the...oh, forget it.

Willets Point Oct 25 2010 10:57 AM Re: Bill Price: Beltran off the hook

I've never understood the "Beltran as goat" theory of the 2006 NLCS. Even an intelligent person like G-FAFIF went on about at length in his book. The Mets as a team hit like shit in that game and in that series. The pitchers messed up a few times too especially with Glavine shitting the bed in one of his starts. The thing is that if Beltran hit a game/series winning home run in that situation we'd still be talking about unlikely and miraculous it was. So why do we give Beltran shit about not doing the "unlikely" and "miraculous"? He was the last chance in a series of blown chances and odds were that 99 out of 100 times he's going to make an out. The Mets blew a chance to win a pennant but it wasn't Beltran's fault.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 25 2010 11:18 AM Re: Bill Price: Beltran off the hook

Yeah I don't blame Beltran much at all, the offense (similar to the '10 MFYs in fact) was slumping for weeks at that point, and just like the '10 MFYs swept the WC series despite it. Were I picking goats I'd sooner go with Delgado (careless error in Game 2), Wagner (shit relief work in Game 2), Trachsel (weak start in game 3) and Valentin (who whiffed with the bases loaded and only 1 out in Game 7).

Ceetar Oct 25 2010 11:29 AM Re: Bill Price: Beltran off the hook

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Yeah I don't blame Beltran much at all, the offense (similar to the '10 MFYs in fact) was slumping for weeks at that point, and just like the '10 MFYs swept the WC series despite it. Were I picking goats I'd sooner go with Delgado (careless error in Game 2), Wagner (shit relief work in Game 2), Trachsel (weak start in game 3) and Valentin (who whiffed with the bases loaded and only 1 out in Game 7). That was probably the biggest inning. Endy rocks the place with that amazing catch of Rolen's home run, and the next inning, with the help of a Rolen throwing error, the bases are loaded with one out. Valentin fails to get the runner in with less than 2 outs (something that's plagued them since it seems like) and then Endy is up in a situation so poetic that if he'd gotten what would've turned out to be a go-ahead RBI, that the writers were probably drooling at that point.

Edgy DC Oct 25 2010 12:17 PM Re: Bill Price: Beltran off the hook

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Yeah I don't blame Beltran much at all, the offense (similar to the '10 MFYs in fact) was slumping for weeks at that point, and just like the '10 MFYs swept the WC series despite it. Were I picking goats I'd sooner go with Delgado (careless error in Game 2), Wagner (shit relief work in Game 2), Trachsel (weak start in game 3) and Valentin (who whiffed with the bases loaded and only 1 out in Game 7). Valentin. True. The 2010 Phils had been hitting some serious teamwide slumpitude also.

TransMonk Oct 25 2010 01:24 PM Re: Bill Price: Beltran off the hook

Game 3 exposed how thin our starting pitching was and how anemic our offense had become. It shows how slumps can tank a promising season.

metirish Oct 25 2010 01:32 PM Re: Bill Price: Beltran off the hook

With each passing season it becomes a stark reminder of the last time the Mets made the post-season.

vtmet Oct 25 2010 01:52 PM Re: Bill Price: Beltran off the hook

I realize the importance of working a count, taking pitches, drawing walks, and "not getting yourself out" by swinging at bad pitches...but at the same time, I think that the way that OBP/OPS is valued today more than it was years ago helps to create these situations where a team's top "meat of the order" players strikeout looking in important at bats... IMO, there used to be more of a propensity to "protect the plate" with 2 strikes than there is today (although Johnnie Damon is one of the best that I've ever seen at flicking borderline pitches foul with 2 strikes). Now that MLB Network exists, and I've gotten a chance to watch alot of old playoff games, I'm really surprised by some of the pitches that guys used to swing at and put in play vs pitches that get taken now. In both the '69 and the '86 games, some very important playoff/WS hits/RBI came on pitches that by today's standards would be taken...Not just guys like Gary Carter and Ray Knight swinging at them, but some key hits by the Astros and the Red Sox were on balls out of the strikezone...

Ceetar Oct 25 2010 02:21 PM Re: Bill Price: Beltran off the hook

vtmet wrote: I realize the importance of working a count, taking pitches, drawing walks, and "not getting yourself out" by swinging at bad pitches...but at the same time, I think that the way that OBP/OPS is valued today more than it was years ago helps to create these situations where a team's top "meat of the order" players strikeout looking in important at bats... IMO, there used to be more of a propensity to "protect the plate" with 2 strikes than there is today (although Johnnie Damon is one of the best that I've ever seen at flicking borderline pitches foul with 2 strikes). Now that MLB Network exists, and I've gotten a chance to watch alot of old playoff games, I'm really surprised by some of the pitches that guys used to swing at and put in play vs pitches that get taken now. In both the '69 and the '86 games, some very important playoff/WS hits/RBI came on pitches that by today's standards would be taken...Not just guys like Gary Carter and Ray Knight swinging at them, but some key hits by the Astros and the Red Sox were on balls out of the strikezone... It's not just the value of OPS (which is certainly valuable) but it's that those extra pitches matter. They didn't so much years ago. If you took extra pitches against Seaver, it was just extra pitches that he threw. If you take extra pitches against Santana, it could mean at least three batters get to take their chances off of Igarashi in the 7th versus Santana. And do to expansion and the so called watering down of the pitcher pool, plus crappy umpires and what not, you have less pitchers that are actually capable hitting that outside corner for a called third strike, so it becomes rare that a hitter will strike out looking versus walking. And the curveball is usually the pitch that tricks them, often i've heard that players say they'll look fastball, because its' the pitch they'd most likely get over for a strike when they can't afford a walk. If a pitcher can control the curve and has the guts to risk it on 3-2 in a pressure spot like that, it can be dangerous. And then if a guy's good at it ,the player at the plate has to think about the curve, which could then cause him to be too late on a fastball and strike out swinging.

HahnSolo Oct 25 2010 02:52 PM Re: Bill Price: Beltran off the hook

Beltran's bigger crime in that AB was looking at a fat first pitch. It was like he went up there thinking I'm taking a pitch no matter what, and fell behind.

G-Fafif Oct 25 2010 04:11 PM Re: Bill Price: Beltran off the hook

Willets Point wrote: I've never understood the "Beltran as goat" theory of the 2006 NLCS. Even an intelligent person like G-FAFIF went on about at length in his book. Less than two stream-of-consciousness paragraphs in the historical overview chapter. One sentence in the 2006 chapter. The event was noted but goat horns weren't placed on Beltran's head. I've never been a Blame Beltran First person, certainly not in the book. I actually got madder about the at-bat when I watched MLBN's reairing of it in early 2009, when I saw Floyd and Reyes attempt to fight off that nasty Wainwright curve, after "FAFIF" went to press. That "intelligent person" crack bears examination as well.

Willets Point Oct 25 2010 07:37 PM Re: Bill Price: Beltran off the hook

I could have sworn I recalled something where you equated Beltran's strikeout as a failure on par with the collapses of 2007 & 08. Nevertheless, you know your book better than I so I retract that comment. The "intelligent person" part stands thought because that was meant to be taken at face value.

The Second Spitter Oct 25 2010 07:42 PM Re: Bill Price: Beltran off the hook

HahnSolo wrote: Beltran's bigger crime in that AB was looking at a fat first pitch. It was like he went up there thinking I'm taking a pitch no matter what, and fell behind. Yeah sorta. How many hitters not named Reynaldo Ordoņez would not have taken the first pitch that situation? That game was lost in the 6th when they had the bases loaded with 1 out.

seawolf17 Oct 25 2010 08:23 PM Re: Bill Price: Beltran off the hook

The Second Spitter wrote: That game was lost in the 6th when they had the bases loaded with 1 out. "WRONG, pal. I lost that game! Me! That was all me, baby! Ha ha!"

G-Fafif Oct 26 2010 06:15 AM Re: Bill Price: Beltran off the hook

Willets Point wrote: I could have sworn I recalled something where you equated Beltran's strikeout as a failure on par with the collapses of 2007 & 08. Nevertheless, you know your book better than I so I retract that comment. The "intelligent person" part stands thought because that was meant to be taken at face value. No problem, WP. There is a ramping up of frustration post-Beltran in the overview chapter, but more like "it sucked to lose in the playoffs, but it REALLY sucked to not make the playoffs the way we didn't," or slightly classier words to that effect. Also sucking: finishing far out of the running. The many varieties of suck are all on display in recent years.