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This Year's Beltran

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 01 2010 12:43 PM

This goateed fellow at second base needs to learn some lessons about accountability, not being "condescending", and hiding from criticism. There's some race stuff in there, too. IN short... delightful.

metirish Nov 01 2010 12:49 PM Re: This Year's Beltran

Some of those links are a chore to follow, meaning you got to read the live chat to find the relevant parts....here is something that jumped out at me Still, is it relevant or newsworthy? It was Utley’s quiet demeanor and play-through-everything mindset that endeared him to fans and the writers in the first place. It seems awfully convenient that, following a disappointing showing in the post-season (and a disappointing regular season), that these qualities are now detriments. Why, when the Phillies won it all in 2008, did the writers never complain about Utley not talking? When Utley hit five home runs in last year’s World Series against the New York Yankees, how come no one questioned his accountability then? Even during his injury-riddled 2010 regular season, no one spoke ill of Utley.

Edgy DC Nov 01 2010 12:54 PM Re: This Year's Beltran

Good theater.

metirish Nov 01 2010 12:56 PM Re: This Year's Beltran

Seeing what you are talking about in the Chat [Comment From PhilliesPhan] It is funny that over the years Rollins and Howard get crucified in this city but Big Baby Utley gets nothing...... 12:42 Marcus: Yes. It is interesting. Except Utley is white. And he likes to curse in public. Imagine if Jimmy had done that?

metirish Nov 01 2010 12:57 PM Re: This Year's Beltran

Damn this guy likes to stir the pot 12:45 [Comment From Joe] Now it's a white and black issue Marcus? 12:45 Marcus: Always was. 12:45 [Comment From Joe] Has nothing to do with him being white. he plays hard every play unlike Howard and rollins. Why does it have to be about race? 12:45 Marcus: Right. The black guys are lazy. The two MVPs are lazy. Where's your hood?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 01 2010 01:04 PM Re: This Year's Beltran

To be fair, it's at least as much "Philly's Klapisch/Lupica" as it is "This Year's Beltran." (The Philly Daily News' Marcus Hayes kinda doesn't... um... come off so well in the chat. But I've heard similar sentiments out of other Phillie-loyalist mouths, including some WIP radio folk.) The relevant bits are below, in their entirety (the last twenty minutes or so of the chat). [Comment From PhilliesPhan] It is funny that over the years Rollins and Howard get crucified in this city but Big Baby Utley gets nothing...... 12:42 Marcus: Yes. It is interesting. Except Utley is white. And he likes to curse in public. Imagine if Jimmy had done that? ... 12:45 [Comment From Joe] Now it's a white and black issue Marcus? 12:45 Marcus: Always was. 12:45 [Comment From Joe] Has nothing to do with him being white. he plays hard every play unlike Howard and rollins. Why does it have to be about race? 12:45 Marcus: Right. The black guys are lazy. The two MVPs are lazy. Where's your hood? 12:46 [Comment From Guest] the arrogance of jimmy and howard contribute to people being critical of them. they are the first to accept praise. chase does not look for attention so he does not get a lot of bad attention 12:46 Marcus: Chase hides from criticism. He hides from everything. Some leader. 12:46 [Comment From Guest] i am offended by the color issue being raised here. 12:46 Marcus: Free to leave, pal. 12:46 [Comment From Son of Marcus] Whoever is moderating this thing, please get rid of this prick. He sucks. Whitey whitey stuff, the snarky comments - not worth participating in AT ALL. 12:47 Marcus: I'm moderating it. And you're gone. 12:47 [Comment From Kyle] So the 3 weeks Howard missed cost him 10-15 HR's?? thats ridiculous 12:47 Marcus: OK. You hit on 1 leg. ... 12:48 [Comment From Guest] Thanks Marcus - finally someone in the media has the stones to say it. Howard and Rollins routinely outplay Utley, but because of his skin color, he can do no wrong. Just like Werth is a worse white version of Abreu...people hate Abreu, love Werth. 12:48 Marcus: You''re welcome. 12:49 [Comment From Aaron] Marcus, do you even like the Phillies because you predicted the Reds would beat them? Now because you have a dislike for a white athlete, you're stirring up the race issue. 12:49 Marcus: I don't dislike the Phillies. I don't dislike Utley. I do my job. 12:49 [Comment From Sal Pals Teeth] I bet his hood in whiter than Sal Pal's new teeth. You make a good point Marcus. Sorry to say, race always plays an issue. Anyway, do you think Brad Lidge will continue his turnaround next year? 12:50 Marcus: I think he'll be spotty the rest of his career; I just can't think he's physicially sound. 12:50 [Comment From Duke Fame] In all fairness, I'm white and I hated Abreu and I hate Werth. So there. 12:50 Marcus: Touche. 12:50 [Comment From Guest] I love when journalists make claims with no proof. Offer any evidence? 12:52 Marcus: Are you blind, pal? You have two MVPs in town who get nothing but ripped. Rollins is worth more to this team hitting .250 than Utley hitting .300 with 30 dongs, simply because he can catch. And what have Howard or Rollins done that was remotely as vulgar and offensive as what Utley did after the parade? Evidence? World Bleeping Champions? Come on. 12:53 [Comment From Guest] I have issues with Utley and Howard and none of it has to do with color for me. I find neither accountable. Werth also comes off as disinterested sometimes. 12:53 Marcus: Utley certainly is seldom accountable; Howard usually is defensive, which, I guess, is similar. 12:53 [Comment From jcb] marcus is raceist 12:54 Marcus: Marcus, who is white and black, is anything but a racist. And, at least Marcus can spell. 12:54 [Comment From notherwhiteguy] So true about Howard/Utley and race. Howard was the leading hitter in the playoffs (best BA, best OPS) and Chase was horrific, but people only complain about Howard. Except Missanelli, who hates everyone. 12:54 Marcus: Ha! 12:54 [Comment From Jack] being outspoken does not make you a leader 12:55 Marcus: Being unaccountable makes you a non-leader. 12:55 [Comment From Guest] If you think Rollins is more valuable than Utley than you don't understand player Valuation. Utley's OBP demolishes Rollins. Also his SLG%. And 2b is as scarce as SS. But those are facts which have no place in this chat. 12:55 Marcus: Player valuation is a fraudulent. nerd-bases entity. What's Cody Ross' player valuation, pal? 12:56 [Comment From frankenslade] I'm white and I agree that Chase gets a free ride for being our city's Great White Hope, but it's more than that, he's got the Strong, Silent Clint Eastwood thing going for him, regardless of his race. Still, while Howard gets busted for not saying exactly what some fans wanted him to say after ending the NLCS on a called third strike, Utley says...NOTHING! When does Utley face the music for a pathetic series? 12:56 Marcus: See? 12:57 [Comment From Guest] The World Effin Champions finished it for me with Utley. People wonder why the writers are cranky, but I've seen the disdain these guys have for questions and it's just reprehensible. Doesn't it suck to cover these mopes? 12:57 Marcus: Mopes! I love it. 12:57 [Comment From Kevin] Wow, I understand now because Utley doesn't give good sound bytes and isn't buddy-buddy with the media, he's unlikable and not a good interview. This is absolutely ridiculous 12:57 Marcus: No: He's condescending and rarely accountable. Not that it matters to you, Mr. Man-Crush. 12:58 [Comment From JD] you people are crazy...lose Utley and watch a real downward spiral. 12:59 Marcus: I agree. The team is a monster as-is. They play great down the stretch, they play hard all the time, they play hurt. You all should appreciate them. 1:00 [Comment From Eman] With our top three starters and a healthy lineup, I like our 2011 chances a whole lot, with or without Werth. 1:00 Marcus: Me, too. Adios, chatters.

metirish Nov 01 2010 01:06 PM Re: This Year's Beltran

Yep , just read the whole thing......wow advocated Tak and Feliciano going down the turnpike

Centerfield Nov 01 2010 01:12 PM Re: This Year's Beltran

If Tak were white he'd be getting Jeter money. That's right. I went there.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 01 2010 01:13 PM Re: This Year's Beltran

Well, if Tak were white, he'd be scrappier, and therefore worth it. Has he EVER broken his nose from throwing so hard, or diving, or failing to get to a routine roller to his left? Thought not. Back to Utley: Perhaps... This Year's Delgado might be more to the crux of things? During my 14 weeks on the beat, I covered about 60 games. I would estimate that Utley made himself available to the media after about five of those games. When he does talk, he says nothing. He is vague and unresponsive to even direct, legitimate questions. He doesn’t necessarily lie, but he certainly glosses over significant parts of the truth at times. In other words, it’s Utley’s accountability with the media that appears to be so bothersome. But that’s the inherent problem in the way the media is perceived. Most players view us as the enemy, and perhaps in some respects that is true. But what the media should be is a conduit between the fans and the team, and in that sense, Utley’s lack of accountability with the media is actually a lack of accountability with the fans*, the people who plunk down money to watch him play. (*This can also prove to be a problem within a locker room. Think back to how Barry Bonds left his teammates to answer hundreds upon hundreds of steroids questions while he left without a word. But in the Phillies’ clubhouse, I find it hard to believe Utley’s lack of availability is much of a concern. After most games, Brad Lidge and Shane Victorino are the only two players routinely available anyway. Most other regulars don’t make a habit of talking to the media, it’s just that Utley is by far the most extreme case.) ... I don’t know Utley well enough to say how he feels about criticism, but it seems to me he’s getting his fair share of it whether he’s talking to the media or not. I do know Utley well enough to know that it’s not just criticism he hides from though. He doesn’t answer questions about how well the team is playing, how good he’s performing when he’s hot or, in the case of the past two months, how that surgically repaired thumb is feeling. We asked Charlie throughout the postseason about Utley’s health, and Manuel’s only response was, “He tells me he’s healthy.” Not that Utley would ever say anything different. And this is where Utley’s lack of accountability with the fans hurts him. He came back from a serious injury to his hand, one that directly impacted his swing, two weeks early. He never quite looked right at the plate after that. But he also would never let on that his hand was still hurting or that he was having trouble recovering and getting his timing and strength back. Ryan Howard did. He talked at length about his ankle and how it affected him. Jimmy Rollins, too. Placido Polanco was clear about his elbow and arm issues throughout the second half and let it be known that he’d need offseason surgery. But Utley kept quiet on all subjects, all the time.

Ceetar Nov 01 2010 01:27 PM Re: This Year's Beltran

Amusing that he brings up the MVPs as some sort of valid argument about why Howard and Rollins are accountable or whatever, when it's the very attitude of writers just like him that vote for and award said honors. self-fullfilling prophesy a bit there.

Edgy DC Nov 01 2010 01:46 PM Re: This Year's Beltran

Except he didn't exactly get the lone vote. But yeah, I disagreed with both those MVPs.

metsmarathon Nov 01 2010 01:48 PM Re: This Year's Beltran

12:55 Marcus: Player valuation is a fraudulent. nerd-bases entity. What's Cody Ross' player valuation, pal? i wonder... what is cody ross' player valuation... i mean, if player valuation were fraudulent, i would expect to see something in his player valuation that a) does not make his postseason look like a tremendous fluke, or b) would not make his postseason look tremendous. i wonder what we would find... lets see... so, he's had three full seasons, two partial seasons, and two tiny stints. in 2007, he actually had an OPS of 1.064 in 66 games with the marlins. but since then, his OPS has trended steadily downward, from 0.804 to 0.790 to finally 0.735 this year. so i guess you could say that he's capable of showing power, and might even be capable of doing it for a shorter period of time, but given a larger sample size, you're going to see a lot of poor production mixed in with the good. he had a tremendous may '08 with 10 homers in 18 games, and has also had a few months with 5 or 6 homers. most had fewer. so you see potential streakiness there as well. but with no predictability. he has good months. he has a lot more bad months. so the postseason looks flukey and unexpected, though potentially unsurprising based on a look at his valuation. but i guess since we'd be looking at valuation, we should also look at how we'd value his postseason. sure, it doesn't show up in traditional player valuation, because unlike football, and possibly basketball, (i could be wrong about those two sports, btw) postseason doesn't count towards your stat line in baseball. babe ruth had 714 homers in the regular season. when we consider the most valuable player award, we look at the regular season. well, some of us look at september, in pennant races, on teams with mostly mediocre talent save one or two really good players. but i digress. we generally don't try to do postseason valuation because a) its a tiny sample size that's inconsistent between even those lucky few players who participate, and b) its just meaningless and dumb. but whatever. cody ross. how would we value his postseason? well, he's got an OPS of 1.184. that's generally valued favorably. in fact, that's better than what albert pujols puts up in a given season. the closest he came was 1.114. and he won the mvp that season, and most likely deserved it. pujols' valuation that season was a shade under 10 WAR. rogers hornsby almost had a year with as good an OPS in 1922. that's a 10.7 WAR year, tho he took a hit for defense. so year, were we to consider cody ross's postseason performance and scaled it up to make a valuation on it in the same context of a regular season, we'd pretty much value him favorably. but i guess that's nerd-speak for "my eyes tell me he's good; i have no need for my brain."

metsmarathon Nov 01 2010 01:51 PM Re: This Year's Beltran

Well, if Tak were white, he'd be scrappier, and therefore worth it. Has he EVER broken his nose from throwing so hard, or diving, or failing to get to a routine roller to his left? Thought not. Back to Utley: Perhaps... This Year's Delgado might be more to the crux of things? During my 14 weeks on the beat, I covered about 60 games. I would estimate that Utley made himself available to the media after about five of those games. When he does talk, he says nothing. He is vague and unresponsive to even direct, legitimate questions. He doesn’t necessarily lie, but he certainly glosses over significant parts of the truth at times. In other words, it’s Utley’s accountability with the media that appears to be so bothersome. But that’s the inherent problem in the way the media is perceived. Most players view us as the enemy, and perhaps in some respects that is true. But what the media should be is a conduit between the fans and the team, and in that sense, Utley’s lack of accountability with the media is actually a lack of accountability with the fans*, the people who plunk down money to watch him play. (*This can also prove to be a problem within a locker room. Think back to how Barry Bonds left his teammates to answer hundreds upon hundreds of steroids questions while he left without a word. But in the Phillies’ clubhouse, I find it hard to believe Utley’s lack of availability is much of a concern. After most games, Brad Lidge and Shane Victorino are the only two players routinely available anyway. Most other regulars don’t make a habit of talking to the media, it’s just that Utley is by far the most extreme case.) ... I don’t know Utley well enough to say how he feels about criticism, but it seems to me he’s getting his fair share of it whether he’s talking to the media or not. I do know Utley well enough to know that it’s not just criticism he hides from though. He doesn’t answer questions about how well the team is playing, how good he’s performing when he’s hot or, in the case of the past two months, how that surgically repaired thumb is feeling. We asked Charlie throughout the postseason about Utley’s health, and Manuel’s only response was, “He tells me he’s healthy.” Not that Utley would ever say anything different. And this is where Utley’s lack of accountability with the fans hurts him. He came back from a serious injury to his hand, one that directly impacted his swing, two weeks early. He never quite looked right at the plate after that. But he also would never let on that his hand was still hurting or that he was having trouble recovering and getting his timing and strength back. Ryan Howard did. He talked at length about his ankle and how it affected him. Jimmy Rollins, too. Placido Polanco was clear about his elbow and arm issues throughout the second half and let it be known that he’d need offseason surgery. But Utley kept quiet on all subjects, all the time. we don't want to hear from our players about how their injuries are hampering their ability to play except when they don't tell us that their play is being impacted by their injuries.

smg58 Nov 01 2010 03:30 PM Re: This Year's Beltran

Funny, I always thought that Howard and Rollins got too much credit while Utley, who before this year was a much of a perennial lock to make the top five in WAR as Pujols, didn't get enough. In Rollins' case at least, I always assumed it had everything to do with him being more quotable and nothing to do with color. Howard I just think is overrated -- he's a one-dimensional player in a power hitter's park, and the contract he just got is obscene. But the writers have rewarded Rollins and Howard instead of Utley, and these same writers apparently give Utley preferential treatment. Am I missing something?

Ceetar Nov 01 2010 03:59 PM Re: This Year's Beltran

smg58 wrote: Funny, I always thought that Howard and Rollins got too much credit while Utley, who before this year was a much of a perennial lock to make the top five in WAR as Pujols, didn't get enough. In Rollins' case at least, I always assumed it had everything to do with him being more quotable and nothing to do with color. Howard I just think is overrated -- he's a one-dimensional player in a power hitter's park, and the contract he just got is obscene. But the writers have rewarded Rollins and Howard instead of Utley, and these same writers apparently give Utley preferential treatment. Am I missing something? I wonder if this is sorta an inter-writer conflict? Is this how writers who don't get an MVP vote disparage the job those that do get a vote are doing? Or how they justify it?

Edgy DC Nov 01 2010 05:27 PM Re: This Year's Beltran

smg58 wrote: But the writers have rewarded Rollins and Howard instead of Utley, and these same writers apparently give Utley preferential treatment. Am I missing something? National writers have rewarded them, but I think his position is that local media --- and a grousing fanbase --- cuts them less slack than they do Utley. I enjoy Rollins. He's got a big mouth, but he's pretty thoughtful. Two out of three times he opens it, I learn something. The third time, well, that's baseball. But putting himself at risk like that has an accountablity of its own. I wish he opened it enough to tell Derek Jeter to sit in the dugout during the World Baseball Classic.

Edgy DC Nov 01 2010 05:31 PM Re: This Year's Beltran

Let's try low-tech Google analytics! "Chase Utley Sucks" returns 1,180 hits. "Chase Utley Sucks" returns 2,050 hits. "Ryan Howard Sucks" returns 4,530 hits. There you have it --- incontrovertible proof that 100% of greater Philadelphia is 100% racist.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 01 2010 06:34 PM Re: This Year's Beltran

Edgy DC wrote: I enjoy Rollins. He's got a big mouth, but he's pretty thoughtful. Two out of three times he opens it, I learn something. The third time, well, that's baseball. But putting himself at risk like that has an accountablity of its own. I wish he opened it enough to tell Derek Jeter to sit in the dugout during the World Baseball Classic. Ever catch his guest segments on MLB Network? He's funny, and a hell of a teacher/explainer. He definitely seems to have the stuff to be a great analyst, if not a superlative coach/manager someday.

Edgy DC Nov 01 2010 06:40 PM Re: This Year's Beltran

Edgy DC Nov 02 2010 06:10 AM Re: This Year's Beltran

Any more racially charged Phillie phanbase meltdowns last night?

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 02 2010 07:15 AM Re: This Year's Beltran

No but the whole organization is on the brink of collapse. Davey Lopes announced yesterday he will not return as 1B coach.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 02 2010 07:29 AM Re: This Year's Beltran

You're out Lopes, then it's just a matter of time until the power grid goes down. The Phillies' official website ran an offseason preview that acknowledges this... um... press dynamic (which, assuming it's as limited as a chat, a few radio comments, and one website's addressing these... is a little weird, no?): Second base Chase Utley: Had the lowest OPS of his career since becoming an everyday player. Utley is getting criticism for the first time in his Phillies career. He had his lowest OPS since he became an everyday player in 2005. He missed two months because of an injured thumb, but Utley struggled offensively and defensively, especially in the postseason. The Phillies are hoping for a rebound from their No. 3 hitter and perennial All-Star.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 02 2010 07:42 AM Re: This Year's Beltran

Article in the Philadelphia Inquirer this morning about Davey Lopes. His beef is that he's being paid as a typical first base coach, when he feels he does more than that. He was completely in charge of the team's baserunning (Charlie Manuel would sometimes give a hit-and-run sign, but Lopes decided when players would steal bases) and he was also the outfield coach. He wasn't expecting the kind of dollars that hitting and pitching coaches get, but he did want more than the Phillies were paying in 2010 and offering for 2011. Says he still wants a job in baseball, but if he doesn't get a job for 2011 he'll probably retire.

Frayed Knot Nov 02 2010 07:54 AM Re: This Year's Beltran

Hell, I'll take Lopes as a base-running coach and whatever else he wants to do (odd that he was the OF coach after being an IF all his career). Except for probably Hale, I could see the entire 2010 NYM coaching staff looking for work this winter so it's not like there won't be holes to fill.

Ceetar Nov 02 2010 08:08 AM Re: This Year's Beltran

Frayed Knot wrote: Hell, I'll take Lopes as a base-running coach and whatever else he wants to do (odd that he was the OF coach after being an IF all his career). Except for probably Hale, I could see the entire 2010 NYM coaching staff looking for work this winter so it's not like there won't be holes to fill. And I bet he can tell Mets pitchers are there little hitches that baserunners run off of. Could be worth hiring him just for that.

Edgy DC Nov 02 2010 08:34 AM Re: This Year's Beltran

I'll take Lopes when he gives Doug Flynn that 1978 Gold Glove he shouldn't have won.

soupcan Nov 02 2010 08:46 AM Re: This Year's Beltran

I felt old this past season when, at a Mets-Phillies game, my son and his friend were asking about the Phillies 1B coach and pronouncing his name 'Lopez'. Prior to that, the thought of seeing 'Lopes' spelled out and pronouncing it any other way never entered my mind.