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One Tough Dominican? One Coddled Ballplayer!

Egg_Salad_Sandwich Oct 22 2005 06:17 AM

Pedro Martinez sits out the last few starts of the season with a tired arm, or was it back ache, or maybe piles or whatever, and now he is going to pitch this winter for the Dominican Republic national team --- very interesting. The Mets pay Pedro a sh*tload of money to pitch for them whether they're in position for a playoff spot or not. More fans show up to Shea and tune into the games on days he pitches, ergo the Mets can recuperate some of that huge salary. This is not an isolated incident with Martinez, in 2001 when the Red Sox were out of the playoff hunt Pedro sat out the last few weeks with what I believe was a tired arm. No playoff = Pedro days off. I think the Mets are foolish to allow Pedro Martinez to represent the Dominican Republic in the World Baseball Classic.

Frayed Knot Oct 22 2005 07:55 AM

Pedro's problem at the end of this season was with the big toe on his right (push-off) foot. He has said he'd like to pitch in winter ball and the world expo if and when it's healed. I have no problem with either, particularly as how the latter is while he'd be pitching in Spring Training anyway.

soupcan Oct 22 2005 09:18 AM

If Met brass doesn't have a problem with it why should I? I'm not the one signing those big checks.

ScarletKnight41 Oct 22 2005 09:23 AM

The key to keeping Pedro effective as a Met is keeping him happy. If this will keep him happy, then it's good for the Mets.

Spacemans Bong Oct 22 2005 11:48 PM

Yes, it is totally worth having a guy who has already pitched 217 innings in the season throw a few more meaningless innings to make you happy. STFU.

Nymr83 Oct 23 2005 12:54 AM

i'm with the bong, this guy begs out of starts left and right, ok thats an exaggeration, this guy requires coddling and wants extra time off whenever he can get it. he was shutdown (a decision i agreed with entirely) when the mets were done. theer is no reason he should be pitching any baseball for anyone but the mets, especially after throwing the most innings he has thrown in 4(?) years. keeping him happy? the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ should keep him happy, if i made that kind of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ i'd do whatever the fuck the team said to do and i'd like it.

Edgy DC Oct 23 2005 05:50 AM

No, I don't think you would.

metsmarathon Oct 23 2005 10:01 AM

how much throwing do these guys do in the offseason, anyways? i'm guessing they throw more than a few innings' worth... if his participation in fall/winter baseball would not lead him to a greatly different offseason workload, then i've no problem with it. also, i've gotta say that at some pointyou need to trust your players, dotcha? if pedro really is begging out of games left and right, then don't you think that he'd also be begging out of these games too, forthe same reasons? i mean - he's a baby, right? he's not going to suddenly man up and play through, is he? if he feels his arm is healthy and can take the work, he's a big boy, and i've gotta take his word for it. in my own experience, also, my level of dissaticsfaction with management has never been inversely proportionate to my salary. in fact, i was less dissatisfied when working for taco bell and radio shack than i often find myself working for the man.

Nymr83 Oct 23 2005 10:27 AM

you have a real job, he gets paid millions to play a friggin game, theres no comparison. i DON'T trust him to know whats best for his arm, or at least not to tel us if it conflicts with what he wants, i trust the Mets (at least i hope i can trust the Mets) to do whatever will keep him in the best condition to pitch for the Mets and only for the Mets, i don't give a fuck about the dominican national team and if he cares so much he could have been like dave nillson and not signed a contract that would prevent him from playing for his national team. also, its been show before that pitchers who pitch winter ball get tired/less effective/ more likely injured in the 2nd half of the following season. he's getting paid the big $ to pitch for the mets and should not be allowed to do anything but a normal offseason workout schedule.

Frayed Knot Oct 23 2005 11:27 AM

]also, its been show before that pitchers who pitch winter ball get tired/less effective/ more likely injured in the 2nd half of the following season. It has?? And can we please stop pretending that this tourney will somehow be in addition to regular spring training work? It's not like it'll be going on at a time these participating players would be otherwise sitting under mango trees strumming guitars. Assuming that there are proper pitch/inning limits in place to keep hyper managers from abusing players who aren't theirs (and there WILL BE such limits although I've not seen the specifics) the selected pitchers aren't going to be seeing increased workloads (can we give team mgmt types credit for a wee bit of brains?) merely doing their regular work in a different setting. This whole tourney is going to last only a few games for some teams and a couple more for those who last longer - and those games are to be covered by an entire staff of pitchers and spread out over several weeks time.

Nymr83 Oct 23 2005 01:10 PM

]It has?? yes. go look it up, i've seen the data before i believe it has been posted on this board at some point.

Edgy DC Oct 23 2005 01:12 PM

It's your position. Why not present the data yourself?

Nymr83 Oct 23 2005 01:57 PM

i'm lazy. its been posted here before, not my fault if people forgot it.

ScarletKnight41 Oct 23 2005 02:01 PM

Failing to back up your position with research doesn't do much for your credibility.

Edgy DC Oct 23 2005 02:18 PM

Yes, it is your fault.

Nymr83 Oct 23 2005 02:19 PM

i could say the same, i havent seen anyone proving that pedro's pitching winterball won't hurt him.

rpackrat Oct 23 2005 02:30 PM

Yes. Come on everyone. Prove a negative!

Edgy DC Oct 23 2005 02:33 PM

That's not the way arguing works. You make a claim. You back it up. Especially when you additionally claim there's evidence to back it up. It's called burden of proof. Personally I think it's a perfectly reasonable assumption. But until you stop bluffing and show what you claim exists does in fact exist, that's all it is.

KC Oct 23 2005 03:06 PM

The sky was green this morning. Was not. Was too, and I know other people must have seen it. The sky can't be green. Prove it. Was too, and my friend saw it. Your friend and you must have been drunk on spiced rum. Oh yeah? Prove that the sky wasn't green and then we'll talk, big man. Uh, ok, I'll get right on that ....

Nymr83 Oct 23 2005 03:41 PM

first of all thats a dumb analogy, which isn't suprising coming from you. whether or not a pitcher will be less effective and/or more likely to get hurt the season after pitching winter ball isn't really a positive/negative scenario like your foolish analogy, its a question more like "what effect will x have on y" and theres no reason that my side should be burdened with proving it any more than the other side.

Edgy DC Oct 23 2005 03:53 PM

It's a perfectly apt analogy. And it appears to be backed by several other people besides KC. It is a postive/negative scenario, as you're saying that there is a negative effect. And it's been shown! Listen, if you're going to run away from your own statements like this, why should anybody give an ounce of credit to any other statements you make?

KC Oct 23 2005 04:41 PM

>>>first of all thats a dumb analogy, which isn't suprising coming from you. <<< And here I was just beginning to like you - and don't confuse analogy with making sport of someone - and you need an apostrophe between t and s and you spelud suprising wrung in a post that calls me dumb. I used to shout at the wind on the baseball internet scene too many years ago until I realized that people don't care what you have to say no matter how loudly, boldly, articulately, smugly, cleverly, cutely, whateverly ... un- less you can back it up with facts, figures, and/or qualified sources.

Nymr83 Oct 23 2005 06:24 PM

are you telling me your post wasn't made with the intent to pick a fight with me? it sure seemed otherwise to me, if you didnt really mean it that way i'll apologize

KC Oct 23 2005 08:29 PM

No apology necessary. There's a big difference between making sport of someone who posts dumb things on an baseball board and picking a fight with them btw. Forget me, and answer to some of the other posts in this thread.

metsmarathon Oct 23 2005 08:53 PM

if pitching in winterball was bad, and tantamount to asking for injury, whysoever would teams allow their pitching prospects, who often make the majors with fairly tight pitch counts in their young years due to concerns of overstressing fragile arms, pitch in winterball? why would they do such a thing?

Elster88 Oct 24 2005 07:54 AM

Elster88 has to agree with Nymr here (and Elster88 rarely agrees with Nymr). Elster88 doesn't see how pitching in competitive games is the same as "normal offseason workouts". Pedro is a competitive person, which Elster88 thinks is an understatement, so Pedro will probably bust his ass for whatever team he pitches for. Elster88 is terrified that Pedro will hurt himself or not get the rest he claimed to need because he will be pitching this offseason. Elster88 is surprised that most other Met fans don't seem to be worried. At the core of it, we have a guy who is considered fragile. His endurance was questioned, as was his age, when he signed with the Mets. He pitched more innings this year than he has in a long time. He complained of being tired (in early September/late August?) and looking forward to resting during the offseason (maybe not strumming a guitar under a mango tree, but that image isn't far off from what Elster88 envisioned when Pedro said he was looking forward to resting). Elster88 thinks that competitive baseball is the last thing he should be doing. What are the contract ramifications is he hurts himself? Aaron Boone had his voided because he hurt himself playing basketball. Jeff Kent got reamed by the press when he hurt himself one offseason. Elster88 is tried of posting like Rickey. Only a few more to go. _____________________________ This post had the designation 138) Rickey Henderson

Frayed Knot Oct 24 2005 08:22 AM

Y'know, for all of Pedro's supposed "fragility", he's missed significant time in only 1 of the last 11 seasons (2001) averaging 216 IP/per in the other 10 (217 this year) and always making between 29 & 33 starts (31). Pretty durable for a fragile guy. And while these world cup games may be more intense, I'm not concerned that Pedro's season/future is going to change because he throws a partial game against Korea (or whoever) in March during the time he'd otherwise be doing the same thing in a tune-up contest against the Nationals. ]What are the contract ramifications is he hurts himself? None. Those dopes were participating in activities specifically banned in their contracts - hoops and motorcycle racing. Pedro would be pitching in team/MLB approved winter ball and/or tourney ball.

Elster88 Oct 24 2005 08:28 AM

Frayed Knot wrote: Y'know, for all of Pedro's supposed "fragility", he's missed significant time in only 1 of the last 11 seasons (2001) averaging 216 IP/per in the other 10 (217 this year) and always making between 29 & 33 starts (31). Pretty durable for a fragile guy. Good point.

Egg_Salad_Sandwich Oct 24 2005 08:33 AM

Ed, you know that facts only get in the way of the trurth. Nymr83 shouldn't have to back up his statements anymore than you. You started this whole thing by referring to Pedro as one tough dominican---now prove it.

Edgy DC Oct 24 2005 09:06 AM

]Ed, you know that facts only get in the way of the trurth. I wha? The "One Tough Dominican" thread title was, of course, a playful reference to Joaquin Andujar. I don't actually think that Pedro is necessarily tougher than your standard Met.

Nymr83 Oct 24 2005 03:45 PM

alot of new stuff to respond to so lets get started.... ="metsmarathon"]if pitching in winterball was bad, and tantamount to asking for injury, whysoever would teams allow their pitching prospects, who often make the majors with fairly tight pitch counts in their young years due to concerns of overstressing fragile arms, pitch in winterball? why would they do such a thing? because these pitchers are unproven and it is more important to find out "what you have" with them than it is to increase their chances of staying healthy. pedro is known commodity and regardless of whether you agree with me that winter ball is a bad idea for him i doubt i can find anyone who thinks its a good idea for him ]What are the contract ramifications is he hurts himself? ]None indeed, another great reason not to let him do anything that could get him hurt. also, for however much i am opposed to him pitching in an international tournament during spring training i am 10x more opposed to him pitching in winter ball in january, a time when he should be resting, resting, resting, and resting as that will DEFINETALY cause him to throw more innings in 2006 than he otherwise would have since it is in addition to, not in replacement of, spring training. more innings is, if not very bad, at least not good. .

Rotblatt Oct 25 2005 07:29 AM

Do we REALLY think Petey's going to treat representing his country on a world stage like a Spring Training start? Of course not. He's probably going to try and be in shape for it, which means he will almost certainly have thrown more innings by the time the season starts than he would have in Spring Training. I think it's a bad idea, but as others have noted, he's not exactly made of porcelin. He threw 244 innings in 2004 once you include the post-season and 215 in 2003. So it's not like the 217 he threw this year should be hurting him THAT badly--his main problem at the end was his foot, not his arm. Still, I'd rather give him more time. The upside is that if he stays healthy through the process, he'll most likely get off to another fast start (2.79 ERA, 0.72 WHIP, 10.52 K/9 between April & May 2005). I'd rather have him be dominant in August & September, when we're in our final push for the post-season, but if he holds up as well as he did in 2005 (2.96 ERA, 1.16 WHIP, 7.12 K/9), I won't complain too much.

Edgy DC Oct 25 2005 08:07 AM

MLB wants this tournament to be as good as it can be. I don't think MLB would be happy for the Mets to interfere with Pedro playing. I don't think teams have had much success stopping players from playing in the winter leagues. I think that when they do dissuade a veteran from participating, it's through a gentleman's agreement, rather than a contractual one.

Johnny Dickshot Oct 25 2005 08:40 AM

I'm certain they will get together and come to some kind of compromise all parties can live with. There's entirely too much bullshit in this thread, by the way, with people referring to studies they cannot produce; presuming to be doctors, pitching coaches, trainers and/or lecturers; unfunny asides, and would be more at home elsewhere.

Elster88 Oct 25 2005 01:57 PM

I only see one post where it was said "It has been shown..." and no one here got to see what was shown. The rest is mostly speculation, with the main theme making sense: If a guy does more in the offseason, he will not be able to perform as well once the season starts. Then it has to be decided exactly how much more work will he be doing, and is it the same as regular offseason workouts, and blah, blah, blah, about stuff no one can prove one way or the other. I stand by my position. Pitching in competitive games is going to require more work than whatever Pedro normally does from November through March. And he already said he was tired well before the season ended. I'd prefer he didn't pitch for another team. That's my tough luck. _____________________________ This post had the designation 137) Del Unser

old original jb Oct 25 2005 07:14 PM Complaining about Pedro.

There are a lot of things to complain about regarding the Mets. Pedro is not one of them. If he thinks he can play winter ball and still pitch well this season, I'm inclined to believe him. I just think he can probably make a better call on this one than I can.

KC Oct 25 2005 07:55 PM

Jeez, last time I admit to posting dumb stuff on the internet, and trying to do it less, and then do it in thread only to have it called unfunny asides.

metirish Oct 27 2005 10:36 AM

]Concern for Pedro BY DAVID LENNON STAFF CORRESPONDENT October 27, 2005 HOUSTON -- Pedro Martinez, introduced last night as a member of the Latino Legends team, says he has plans to pitch for the Licey Tigers in his native Dominican Republic, as well as represent his country in the World Baseball Classic. But Martinez also has damaged cartilage in his right big toe, and that seems to be an unresolved issue for the Mets' $53-million righthander. Martinez pitched with the injured toe for most of the season, and was shut down after his five-inning start against the Marlins on Sept. 22. Martinez believes that rest and rehabilitation should take care of the problem, provided that he wears better protective footwear on the mound. But there is still discomfort, and that could put his extracurricular plans on hold. "They told me to rest it for a month and see how it goes from there," Martinez said before last night's Game 4 of the World Series. "Just walking around, I can tell that it's not as good as I'd like it to be. But it's not getting worse." Asked if the toe might need surgery, he replied, "I'm assuming not." Martinez's friend, Manny Ramirez, also was selected to the Legends team, but the Red Sox leftfielder - and Mets' obsession - did not attend yesterday's event. Earlier this month, it was reported that Ramirez's agent said his client would not welcome a trade to the Mets, but Martinez grinned at the suggestion. "Manny's his own man," Martinez said. "It's none of my business to criticize what they do. If Manny comes over, welcome. If he doesn't, well, we'll just go on with whatever we have."

silverdsl Oct 27 2005 11:41 AM

So what does the toe problem mean for Pedro pitching for the DR? If I were a Met fan I'd be concerned about him pitching over the winter but I'm just a worry-wart about that kind of thing that a player might get injured and be out during the regular season. But if the Mets haven't expressed any concerns about it then all parties probably think that he can handle it. Pitching for his country probably means a great deal to Pedro and I can't fault him for wanting to do it.

Elster88 Oct 27 2005 12:26 PM

silverdsl wrote: If I were a Met fan I'd be concerned about him pitching over the winter but I'm just a worry-wart about that kind of thing that a player might get injured and be out during the regular season. But if the Mets haven't expressed any concerns about it then all parties probably think that he can handle it. There is a (to me) surprising lack of concern 'round these parts. I'm guessing that any objections that the Mets have are being kept in-house.

Mark Healey Oct 27 2005 06:54 PM

I don't much like the World Baseball Classic either, but I'm not sure you can tell anyone not to take part... Personally, I'd like to see kids like Blake McGinley get a chance to pitch against that kind of talent, amd maybe , just maybe, get a chance to make the big team ahead of Danny Graves, Mr. Funk and Tim Haky-sak...