Dec 29 2005 07:24 PM
I need to dot more t's, but this is what I got so far ...
Master Index of Archived Threads
2005 Crane Pool Forum Rankings Thread
| d'Kong76 Oct 14 2005 05:12 PM |
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I don't know if this was posted in the regular forum, but 2005 is live and
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| dgwphotography Oct 14 2005 05:33 PM |
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ok - give me a few days - I'll start crunching the numbers, make a list, and check it twice...
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| d'Kong76 Oct 14 2005 07:17 PM |
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I wasn't singling anyone out - I have more half finished projects than anyone
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| Valadius Oct 14 2005 07:32 PM |
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I can't wait to be a part of this. How is this done each year?
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| d'Kong76 Oct 14 2005 07:57 PM |
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>>>How is this done each year?<<<
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| Edgy MD Oct 14 2005 09:20 PM |
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Rank the top 30 Mets from 2005. Simple as that. The other information can be found in the thread atop this forum. With other detours found strewn about.
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| d'Kong76 Oct 15 2005 07:51 AM |
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Certainly you can afford me a tiny bit of sarcasm, Edge - there are forty-one
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| Frayed Knot Oct 15 2005 08:01 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 15 2005 08:19 AM |
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Pretty much anyway you want. You can jump in either by creating your own list for critque or by plunging into an ongoing discussion of someone else's. How you go about concocting your list - blending the pitchers with the hitters, or rating good part-timers vs mediocre full-timers, etc. - is your choice. You can do it entirely by gut or you can sabremetric the thing to within an inch of it's life. Just be prepared to defend your conclusions if - or let's face it ... WHEN - peeps here question your logic, your intelligence, and quite possibly your family lineage. There are really only a few rules & guidelines: - 30 players only, ranked from 30 points to the top guy and 1 to the bottom guy. We used 42 different players this year which means the 12 true bottom feeders will be off the list entirely. - We're looking to rank for real results only and this year only. In other words, don't go demoting guys because they have "Yankee/Brave cooties" on them, or because they annoyed you by smirking after giving up a run or something. This should be based on perfromance not likability. By the same token we're not looking to rank players "on the curve"; so if Player A had a better season than Player B then rank them that way as opposed to putting B higher simply because his salary or expectations were lower, or by anticipating what he "might have done" had he been brought up sooner and the stupid-ass manager given him more starts, better lineup slots, etc., or how his future looks for 2006 and beyond. This is strictly a 2005 season report card. Eventually, we reach some kind of consensus. The 42 players in 2005, ranked by use: Hitters by AB: Reyes -- Beltran -- Wright -- Floyd -- Piazza Cairo -- Cameron -- Diaz -- Mientkiewicz -- Matsui Anderson -- Castro -- Woodward -- Jacobs -- Offerman Valent -- Williams -- Daubach -- A. Hernandez -- DiFelice Pitchers by IP: Martinez -- Glavine -- Benson -- Zambrano -- Heilman Ishii - Seo -- R. Hernandez -- Looper -- Bell Trachsel -- Padilla -- DeJean -- Aybar -- Koo Graves -- Ring -- Takatsu -- Mathews Heredia -- Hamulack
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| Frayed Knot Oct 15 2005 08:16 AM |
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Here's where I'd like to kick off the discussion;
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| d'Kong76 Oct 15 2005 08:24 AM |
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Then someone chimes in and says that Wright had 28 win-shares vs. Floyds
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| ScarletKnight41 Oct 15 2005 08:41 AM |
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Plus someone points out that Wright won the Crane Pool Schaeffer Player of the Year award, so that should carry some weight with the 2005 rankings.
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| d'Kong76 Oct 15 2005 09:47 AM |
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And he's better looking.
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| dgwphotography Oct 15 2005 09:56 AM |
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My initial list has Floyd third behind Pedro and Wright.
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| Willets Point Oct 15 2005 09:56 AM |
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And appeals to New York's broad Caucausian demographic.
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| Valadius Oct 15 2005 11:10 AM |
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Ok... time to begin my first foray into this hallowed process!
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| Benjamin Grimm Oct 15 2005 11:43 AM |
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All you have to do is list your personal Top 30. Everyone else will do theirs, and thus the consensus rankings are formed.
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| Valadius Oct 15 2005 12:18 PM |
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If you insist:
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| d'Kong76 Oct 15 2005 02:41 PM |
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He's not insisting, that's just the way all the years were done. Read some of
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| Nymr83 Oct 24 2005 04:43 PM |
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ok i'm working on this now to stay away from my casebooks for a few minutes...
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| Valadius Nov 02 2005 10:17 AM |
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Are we gonna keep going with this or are we waiting until after the song parody contest?
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| Edgy MD Nov 02 2005 10:45 AM |
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I'm a-too busy.
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| d'Kong76 Nov 02 2005 06:34 PM |
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My intention wasn't to make this the 2005 rankings thread ... things just
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| d'Kong76 Nov 18 2005 09:05 AM |
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Yo Lubie, are you going to start a 2005 thread or would you like me to just
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| abogdan Nov 20 2005 09:40 AM |
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One man's rankings relying heavily on VORP:
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| Frayed Knot Nov 20 2005 07:34 PM |
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I'd say that VORP - or your interpretation of it - heavily credits good part-timers: Seo, Jacobs at the expense of longer term mediocrities: Matsui, Cairo, Benson.
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| Valadius Nov 20 2005 07:59 PM |
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As much as I detest Cairo, Offerman definitely shouldn't be ranked higher than him.
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| abogdan Nov 22 2005 03:34 PM |
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Cairo's not a mediocrity. He was awful. He did nothing well. He wasted 367 plate appearances and was an awful defensive second baseman. Nothing like someone hitting in front of your $100 million player who makes an out over 70% of the time. He had an OPS of .540 hitting in the #2 spot in the lineup. He had a .630 OPS overall. There were 284 players in baseball who had over 300 PA last season. Only six of them had a lower OPS than Cairo. I should have ranked Koo ahead of Cairo, but I was being generous. Koo probably did more for the team in his 2 PA than Cairo did in his 367. Offerman only had 80 PA for the Mets, but he was still better than Cairo.
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| Nymr83 Nov 23 2005 01:02 PM |
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Abogdan is right. when you are actually HURTING your team and taking up many at bats in doing so, you are far less valuable than the guy who went 1 for 3 with a single on the season.
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| OlerudOwned Nov 29 2005 08:08 AM |
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Just for reference, if anyone wants to get to THT's 2005 Mets win shares, its here
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| d'Kong76 Dec 27 2005 07:03 PM |
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Interest in this seems to be less and less - I'll post my ranks before year end
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| OlerudOwned Dec 28 2005 12:17 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 29 2005 06:59 PM |
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Here's mine, I'm up for any criticisms of it, sometimes it takes another person for me to notice something.
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| Benjamin Grimm Dec 28 2005 12:36 PM |
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1 Wright
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| Zvon Dec 28 2005 03:08 PM |
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I missed this 1st time around. Im interested and will post mine soon.
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| Nymr83 Dec 28 2005 03:38 PM |
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I started with a list sorted by OPS+/ERA+, i adjusted up or down based on playing time...guys who played well are mostly higher than those who didn't, regardless of how often they played.
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| Edgy MD Dec 28 2005 05:17 PM |
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I haven't ranked them yet, so who knows what I'm going to puke up there, but the last batch of rankers seem to love Seo a little more than 40% of a season should allow.
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| Elster88 Dec 28 2005 05:22 PM |
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Reyes only played in 160 games, so it makes perfect sense that Seo be ranked ahead of him.
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| Nymr83 Dec 28 2005 05:29 PM |
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Seo had an ERA+ of 162, Reyes had an OPS+ of 80, thats the difference between a cy young winner and a bench jockey....the extra playing time wasnt enough for me to justify reyes being higher, and i thought of putting him lower.
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| Edgy MD Dec 28 2005 05:32 PM |
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Cy Young winners play more than 40% of a season.
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| Nymr83 Dec 28 2005 05:35 PM |
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which is why i ranked Seo 7th and not 1st, where he clearly would have been if he'd played more at that rate of production
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| Nymr83 Dec 28 2005 05:37 PM |
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OlerudOwned/Yancy, i'm wondering why you both have Benson so far ahead of Zambrano after very similiar seasons?
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| seawolf17 Dec 28 2005 05:55 PM |
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Okay, I'll play.
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| Nymr83 Dec 28 2005 06:12 PM |
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i don't think marlon anderson belongs so high, your rankins seem otherwise reasonable to me
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| Zvon Dec 28 2005 06:42 PM |
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01 Wright
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| OlerudOwned Dec 28 2005 06:48 PM |
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But Benson seemed to have a very productive, consistant season up until the late year meltdown v. Washington (the Jacobs game). Zambrano was consistant in his nausea causing control problems and wound up losing his rotation spot.
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| cooby classic Dec 28 2005 08:31 PM |
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Wow I just saw this for the first time and thought you were ranking us
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| Rockin' Doc Dec 29 2005 06:32 PM |
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Don't give them ideas, cooby.
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| d'Kong76 Dec 29 2005 07:24 PM |
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I need to dot more t's, but this is what I got so far ...
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| Johnny Dickshot Dec 29 2005 07:42 PM |
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Told ya this would get better traffic out here
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| d'Kong76 Dec 29 2005 08:02 PM |
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5 R Hernandez?
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| Johnny Dickshot Dec 29 2005 08:15 PM |
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That took balls, didn't it?
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| Zvon Dec 29 2005 08:41 PM |
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thats a good argument JD.
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| Frayed Knot Dec 29 2005 08:43 PM |
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The battle between the good part-timers and the mediocre full-timers is probably the biggest snag to overcome. I put more emphasis on those who actually played. Remember, this is a judgement of how the players contributed and not neccesarily how we think they might have done if they had been given more time, a better batting slot, a different role, etc. Putting up great numbers over 3 weeks can only help a team so much, and taking the angle that someone off the scrapheap could have done better than one of the starters is all fine and dandy except that we'll never know since no one else did start.
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| Zvon Dec 29 2005 09:09 PM |
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....Just gimme a couple of days to read it. I KID! :)
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| Zvon Dec 29 2005 09:22 PM |
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Lol. Well put. I cant argue. Your list explaination is solid and airtight. If i ever need an alibi, im going to ask you to write it.
This is a real BINGO. Ishii would look brilliant and then the wheels would fall off for just that one inning (if he was allowed to continue after it). I always thought this was a lack of focus, and wondered what it was that would cause it. Good list FK. Well thought out.
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| Nymr83 Dec 29 2005 11:13 PM |
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i'm cool with FK's list except for the same benson/zambrano issue i mentioned earlier
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| Elster88 Dec 29 2005 11:31 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 29 2005 11:41 PM |
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I agree with Edgy. A person who plays at a high rate for a short time doesn't really contribute more than a person who plays at an average rate for an entire season. There's no way to explain this if the student refuses to wrap his head around the concept. It's a matter of differing views on what makes up a "contribution", though IMHO it's not even an argument. FK took an excellent crack at explaining it, by putting a LOT more effort into it than I would have. Well done FK.
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| Elster88 Dec 29 2005 11:36 PM |
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There are many holes in this. I really have nothing to add to what Edgy and FK said, but I want to throw in my agreement with them.
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| Elster88 Dec 29 2005 11:40 PM |
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That's a beautiful chart KC. I'm going to steal it when I put my numbers down, if you don't mind.
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| Edgy MD Dec 30 2005 06:08 AM |
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It's my big bugbear about the the use of bb-r.com stats. People with sub-100 OPS+'s or ERA+'s are referred to or treated as sub-average players. They aren't necessarily. That supposedly average performance is established at 100 by the best players getting the vast majority of plate appearances and innings pitched.
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| metsmarathon Dec 30 2005 07:17 AM |
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this totally doesnt belong here, but it came up as a result of KC posting his beautiful table.
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| metsmarathon Dec 30 2005 08:33 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 30 2005 01:35 PM |
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ok, so , it wouldn't be a ranking project without me trying to come up with a novel, overly complicated (and likely misguided) way of doing things.
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| Edgy MD Dec 30 2005 08:54 AM |
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Another problem with OPS+ and ERA+ is that he figures get distorted in the extremes. ERA+, in fact, moves toward infinity. A player with an ERA+ of 200+ might have gotten a 2.00 ERA in a league with a 4.00 ERA. A player with an OPS+ of 200 may have gotten a 1.500 OPS in a league with a .750 OPS. Assuming player A was a starting pitcher and player B a full-time batter, player B is a much much more productive guy.
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| metsmarathon Dec 30 2005 09:15 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 30 2005 01:35 PM |
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so how do i apply this to the pitchers?
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| metsmarathon Dec 30 2005 09:17 AM |
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sure, before i can try to tackle the problem of mixing the lists, edgy points out the biggest inherent problem.
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| Johnny Dickshot Dec 30 2005 09:23 AM |
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Finally I have company in my lofty Hernandez positioning.
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| Edgy MD Dec 30 2005 09:28 AM |
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One complicated way to compare apples and oranges is to calculate a pitchers' OpS+ yielded, and use that, instead of ERA+. That not only allows you to better compare pitchers to batters, but clears up the records of pitchers (usually relievers) who have misleading ERAs by runs they're largely responsible for yielding counting against the ERA record of another, or runs they're largely responsible for saving embellishing the ERA record of another.
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| metsmarathon Dec 30 2005 11:24 AM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Dec 30 2005 01:34 PM |
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complicated? that's prolly the least complicated, and most sensible way of doing things out there!
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| Edgy MD Dec 30 2005 11:48 AM |
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Well, it's more complicated because nobody I know lists an OPSA+, so you have to calculate it standardized to the league with park factors by youself.
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| Frayed Knot Dec 30 2005 12:36 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 30 2005 12:46 PM |
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Well some kind of consensus is emerging from the 12 different opinions floating around at this point: the list below is an averaging of the ones submitted so far plus both a list of Win Shares & our PotG standings but not KC's & Marathon's lists, both of which seem to be incomplete.
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| Nymr83 Dec 30 2005 12:45 PM |
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i have no idea how Cairo, regardless of your opinion of mediocre full-timers vs. good part timers, gets anywhere on anyone's list. he wasn't mediocre, he was TERRIBLE, one of the worst hitters in the entire major leagues and his contribution to the team was a negative one.
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| rpackrat Dec 30 2005 12:55 PM |
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Here's my list:
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| Bret Sabermetric Dec 30 2005 01:01 PM |
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Could the final cumulative POTG postings be appended to this thread?
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| Elster88 Dec 30 2005 01:13 PM |
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Jacobs is cumulatively above Looper and Matsui.
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| Willets Point Dec 30 2005 01:16 PM |
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Here they are in a link from our archives.
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| metsmarathon Dec 30 2005 01:29 PM |
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there'd be two ways of doing OPA+, to my thinking.
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| Frayed Knot Jan 01 2006 08:41 PM |
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Not arguing that should be anywhere near the top, only that simply the fact that he held a starting position for a good portion of the season puts him ahead of those who contributed both briefly and not very well either. I'm talking about those like Graves and his 5+ ERA in 20 IPs or DeJean and his 2.1+ WHiP/near 6.00 ERA in 25 IPs. Not to mention that it's tough to explain why Matsui's: 255/300/352 season rates so high above Cairo's 251/296/324 ... not a whole lot of difference there.
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| Nymr83 Jan 02 2006 12:39 AM |
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i put matsui ahead of cairo because matsui hurt the team for a shorter amount of time and slightly less per AB, cairo was last to me but #25-29 on my list are not things i care to argue with much passion, if you want to flip them around i wouldnt care really
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| Frayed Knot Jan 18 2006 09:27 PM |
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| Zvon Jan 18 2006 09:57 PM |
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This was purely intentional. I was scoring on positives and negatives. Trax went negatively off the chart,lol.
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| Frayed Knot Jan 19 2006 07:43 AM |
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So Trachsel's 37 IPs @ 1.32 WHiP & 4.14 ERA somehow ring up more
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| Johnny Dickshot Jan 19 2006 08:09 AM |
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If we're going to get ignorant responses like this, just throw out the whole vote.
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| Bret Sabermetric Jan 19 2006 08:15 AM |
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If we ask the death penalty for ignorant responses, the undertakers are going to be mighty busy around here.
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| Johnny Dickshot Jan 19 2006 10:37 AM |
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C'mon. This project till now has had earnest participation and compromise. If some are now unwilling to engage in such, f 'em.
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| Bret Sabermetric Jan 19 2006 10:45 AM |
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I was just funnin' ya. My serious response, offered when this project began, is that we just exclude the one or two most extreme outliers from the final tabulation, thus eliminating misinformed views and, much more important, discouraging people from posting rankings without thinking them through sensibly. If we do that, then such posts are just amusing to read (as well as to write).
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| abogdan Feb 04 2006 11:14 AM |
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So is this thing done? Have the rankings been added to the master list?
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| Frayed Knot Feb 06 2006 08:34 PM |
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Nothing's been added to the master list yet but,since no one else seems particularly interested in adding their two cents or defending/explining their choices if they have made some,then I guess this year's order is pretty well set.
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| Edgy MD Feb 06 2006 08:40 PM |
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I'm working on something.
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| Zvon Feb 06 2006 09:15 PM |
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37 innings from a starter though. And 4 losses out of 6 games started. I seriously consider Trachsels performance not worthy. Those three you mention does make that a tuff call. But they were relievers. And I think Graves threw more innings than that.
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| Frayed Knot Feb 06 2006 09:42 PM |
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I'm sure you are.
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| Edgy MD Feb 06 2006 09:53 PM |
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Don't go bein' a punk.
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| Edgy MD Feb 08 2006 09:33 PM |
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Something's amiss with my spreadsheet, so I can't show my work.
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| Frayed Knot Feb 08 2006 10:22 PM |
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Heilman leaps ahead of Seo & Hernandez!!!!
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| Elster88 Feb 08 2006 11:53 PM |
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Happy 1969th, FK.
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| sharpie Feb 09 2006 06:31 AM |
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The 1969th post should have bells and whistles.
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| Edgy MD Feb 09 2006 06:41 AM |
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So I've heard.
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| Giant Squidlike Creature Mar 09 2006 12:49 PM |
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Is this done yet?
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| sharpie Mar 09 2006 12:56 PM |
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Last year's rankings and updated overall rankings must be done by this year's opening day! Or something very bad will happen.
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| Frayed Knot Mar 09 2006 09:18 PM |
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Well, when we missed the opening day deadline for incorporating last year's list it's not like anything bad happened like the forum blowing up causing the loss of tons of our history or anything.
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| Willets Point Apr 13 2006 01:38 PM |
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Y'all are way behind on this.
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| Edgy MD Apr 13 2006 01:44 PM |
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Not so much. I'm loading everything into my table. My problem is tha it takes ten tries for me to get into the admin panel (where all the HTML is hid), and even there I might hit a toggle and then be returned to the forum screen.
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| d'Kong76 Apr 13 2006 05:40 PM |
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I have more done too than I've posted here, I kinda forgot about this.
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| Willets Point Apr 13 2006 09:22 PM |
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I don't really mess around under the hood too much to be of any help to you.
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| Edgy MD Apr 13 2006 09:55 PM |
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I'm just trying to copy the html out of the ranking level profiles and put them onto the spreadsheet, so magic Yancy can refresh every thing by exporting from the spreadsheet or whatever he does.
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| Giant Squidlike Creature May 18 2006 02:12 PM |
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Tired of bumping this up in the baseball forum, so it goes here for safe keeping.
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| Valadius Oct 31 2006 01:24 PM |
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Did this ever get fully incorporated into the posting levels?
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| Nymr83 Oct 31 2006 01:29 PM |
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did we ever put together a consensus order?
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| Frayed Knot Nov 01 2006 01:03 PM |
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30 - Wright 29 - Martinez 28 - Floyd 27 - Glavine 26 - Reyes 25 - Beltran 24 - Piazza 23 - Cameron 22 - Benson 21 - Heilman 20 - R. Hernandez 19 - Seo 18 - Diaz 17 - Zambrano 16 - Castro 15 - Jacobs 14 - Looper 13 - M. Anderson 12 - Meintkiewicz 11 - Matsui 10 - Woodward 9 - Padilla 8 - Cairo 7 - Ishii 6 - Trachsel 5 - Koo 4 - Bell 3 - Offerman 2 - G. Williams 1 - Aybar
No
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| Elster88 Nov 01 2006 01:09 PM |
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Mr. Koo!!!!
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